Graffito Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 It made Newcastle bench go bananas (with little to no reason at all) and therefor our best striker has been serving a ban... Yet we're being told it's within the laws of the game to follow through (if indeed Brown got any meaningful touch on the ball which I think he did not). So something's wrong. Either it's a foul and a yellow (or red) as with Schneiderlin or it's perfectly legal within the laws of the game and warrants no penalty, as with Brown. That's without even considering the recklessness, degree of force etc relative to the two tackles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulletsaint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 I saw the tackle while having late lunch in a local pub. To those people who are judging whether or not Brown got a touch or not from a tiny GIF, I'd say wait until you see it properly. He definitely gets a touch before Gaston, albeit a very small one. Personally I feel that the angle and reckless nature of the tackle make it a foul in this day and age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monosaint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 He may have got a slight touch on the ball but the rules regarding reckless tackles say “Reckless” means that the player has made the move with complete disregard for danger to, or consequences for, his opponent. Wes Brown I think did exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Maybe it´s not in the book but surely there must be a big difference if you as a defender is on the ball and clears it compared with nudging it but your opponent would still be playing the ball if you dont follow through and brings him down.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studentsaint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 If lovren made that tackle we would be singing his praises as one of the best centre backs in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 If lovren made that tackle we would be singing his praises as one of the best centre backs in the league. Well, lets just say that referees judge them differently. Lovren had a similar last week on Long where he nudge the ball but followed through into Long. Freekick and a yellow was awarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 According to Lovrens facebook page the leg is fine and he'll be back soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 According to Lovrens facebook page the leg is fine and he'll be back soon. Excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 According to Lovrens facebook page the leg is fine and he'll be back soon. Makes the draw that much bearable. Great news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Apart from here has anybody called it a red? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2541772/Mauricio-Pochettino-suffers-double-injury-blow-Gaston-Ramirez-Dejan-Lovren-carried-Wes-Brown-goes-UNPUNISHED-horror-tackle.html Horror tackle according to the mail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Law 12: A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play. A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play. Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Law 12: A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play. A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play. Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play. Thats all well and god but many professionals dont think it was a foul and more importantly the referee did not, rough with the smooth, we whinge about the refs and we expect them to do us favours and give us 50/50's? The departed chairman started that belter as well, I did not see many complain about the West Brom penalty earlier on in the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamsaint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Thats all well and god but many professionals dont think it was a foul and more importantly the referee did not, rough with the smooth, we whinge about the refs and we expect them to do us favours and give us 50/50's? The departed chairman started that belter as well, I did not see many complain about the West Brom penalty earlier on in the season. trouble is a lot of professionals in the game, in various roles, don't know the laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 trouble is a lot of professionals in the game, in various roles, don't know the laws. They know the laws but they also know its subjective when you implement that law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggles31 Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 I still can't get over how the baked bean got away with that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 trouble is a lot of professionals in the game, in various roles, don't know the laws. Yes, amazing isn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewell Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Reckon that is ankle ligaments. 8-10 weeks minimum based having had a similar tackle inflicted on me. The GF is a Physio and from the picture the first think she said was a likely lateral ligament has gone which in some cases can take longer to heal than a clean break. She did say there could be a possible dislocation but in fairness she has only seen 1 photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Saint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Brown doesn't touch the ball first, but even if he did that doesn't take away it was both reckless, from behind and he was the last man. Its a clear red card. More like 2 red cards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BotleySaint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Incredible he got away with that tackle. Very frustrating. Would have been a wonder goal. Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 I still can't get over how the baked bean got away with that! Comment of decade! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbyboy Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 "A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play." Gaston's safety was endangered (by definition) if he suffers any kind of injury from this tackle. The word in the Laws is "must" be sanctioned. Therefore the referee is guilty of not applying the rules of the game, or, if he did not see it, the sanction must be applied retrospectively. Not saying that's what will happen, but the letter of the law is this. I don't see any way around it, contact with ball or otherwise. Conversely, if that is a legal tackle then the club should be writing to the FA and asking for someone to come and clarify the law that allows one play to incapacitate another without there being any foul or consequence. Such a move, if legal, would be good to know about as we could start using it in all our future games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Gaston apparently has no fracture! Good news! The baked bean hopefully didn't do too much damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Saint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 It's pretty appalling that so many people find such a move to be 'a fair challenge'. It's not. It's a horrible tackle, and one which is NOT reckless - Brown knows very well that there is a high chance that Gaston will score from that setup and that will effectively end the game. On the other hand, there is a good chance he will get away with it, either because a) he gets a flick on the ball b) the ref is in a position from which he cannot see the challenge very well c) even if he sees it, it will be hard for him to send off a player from the home team at this very moment. Therefore, from purely practical (&logical) standpoint, it's better for him to go for it. What's even worse is there are quite a few people on this forum who said "if it was one of our players, we would have been applauding it". No, I would not. I understand why it needs to be done and why Brown did it today (as I tried to explain above), but I would never support such a tackle - it's horrible, it doesn't add anything to the game, and it has no place in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 It's pretty appalling that so many people find such a move to be 'a fair challenge'. It's not. It's a horrible tackle, and one which is NOT reckless - Brown knows very well that there is a high chance that Gaston will score from that setup and that will effectively end the game. On the other hand, there is a good chance he will get away with it, either because a) he gets a flick on the ball b) the ref is in a position from which he cannot see the challenge very well c) even if he sees it, it will be hard for him to send off a player from the home team at this very moment. Therefore, from purely practical (&logical) standpoint, it's better for him to go for it. What's even worse is there are quite a few people on this forum who said "if it was one of our players, we would have been applauding it". No, I would not. I understand why it needs to be done and why Brown did it today (as I tried to explain above), but I would never support such a tackle - it's horrible, it doesn't add anything to the game, and it has no place in it. You seem to be implying that Wes brown deliberately set out to foul and hurt Ramirez. Do you genuinely believe this to be the case with the game in the balance, gaston through on goal and any slight mistime of the tackle would be a straight red and either a penalty or a free kick in a dangerous position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 "A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play." Gaston's safety was endangered (by definition) if he suffers any kind of injury from this tackle. The word in the Laws is "must" be sanctioned. Therefore the referee is guilty of not applying the rules of the game, or, if he did not see it, the sanction must be applied retrospectively. Not saying that's what will happen, but the letter of the law is this. I don't see any way around it, contact with ball or otherwise. Conversely, if that is a legal tackle then the club should be writing to the FA and asking for someone to come and clarify the law that allows one play to incapacitate another without there being any foul or consequence. Such a move, if legal, would be good to know about as we could start using it in all our future games. A few years ago FIFA had a go at trying to eliminate tackles from behind. Studies had shown that a lot of layers were getting serious ankle injuries from such tackles, mainly because they couldn't see them coming. Referees were instructed to issue red cards for any tackle from behind liable to endanger the safety of an opponent. This didn't seem to last very long. Brown's tackle was always going to follow through and endanger Gastón whether he got the ball first or not. Earlier in the season Brown was given a red card which was later rescinded. This undermines the referee concerned and may even be going through their minds every time that Brown makes another tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Red 'serious foul play' end of! Even a youth Sunday morning player would see red for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Saint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 You seem to be implying that Wes brown deliberately set out to foul and hurt Ramirez. Do you genuinely believe this to be the case with the game in the balance, gaston through on goal and any slight mistime of the tackle would be a straight red and either a penalty or a free kick in a dangerous position? Yes, because the alternative is a 50%+ chance of Gaston scoring, effectively sealing the win for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 You seem to be implying that Wes brown deliberately set out to foul and hurt Ramirez. Do you genuinely believe this to be the case with the game in the balance, gaston through on goal and any slight mistime of the tackle would be a straight red and either a penalty or a free kick in a dangerous position? As I've just posted, do you think there was any way that Brown could win that ball cleanly, even if he touched it before the man? He was always going to bring Gastón down whatever happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Saint Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 You seem to be implying that Wes brown deliberately set out to foul and hurt Ramirez. Ok, let me correct myself - I don't think we wanted to foul and hurt him, I think it was more a case of... doing what's necessary to stop him, including fouling him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 As I've just posted, do you think there was any way that Brown could win that ball cleanly, even if he touched it before the man? He was always going to bring Gastón down whatever happened. Of course there was. You are talking about fractions of seconds here, he gets to that ball 0.2 seconds earlier and makes a clean tackle, Gaston goes over his leg but he wins the ball cleanly and its a great tackle, not a foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 January, 2014 Share Posted 18 January, 2014 Ok, let me correct myself - I don't think we wanted to foul and hurt him, I think it was more a case of... doing what's necessary to stop him, including fouling him. Which is what you expect defenders to do, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Saint Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Which is what you expect defenders to do, yes? Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 It wasn't deliberate but you can't claim it's not a foul because it was an accident as Shearer just called it on MoTD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatSaint Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 How can anyone here say it's a fair tackle after wathcing the replays? Are you guys insane? When I first saw it live on my computer I too thought it was a fair tackle where Brown touched the ball and then caught Ramirez a little bit. But after watching the replays, it doesn't seem like he even touches the ball? If he did, it was barely. Horrendous tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Comment of decade! Bit of an exaggeration there Roge - really?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 How can anyone here say it's a fair tackle after wathcing the replays? Are you guys insane? When I first saw it live on my computer I too thought it was a fair tackle where Brown touched the ball and then caught Ramirez a little bit. But after watching the replays, it doesn't seem like he even touches the ball? If he did, it was barely. Horrendous tackle. In my opinion there's no way that you could call that a clean tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAS Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Of course there was. You are talking about fractions of seconds here, he gets to that ball 0.2 seconds earlier and makes a clean tackle, Gaston goes over his leg but he wins the ball cleanly and its a great tackle, not a foul.He makes a clean tackle and gets to the ball 0.2..... are you mad? Really, have you seen the damage? this was a lunging tackle from a position behind the player, desparate 100%. To say he got a toe on the ball before breaking an anlke imo is crazy. And you proclaim to be a saints fan. Honestly, you are talking ****e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 He makes a clean tackle and gets to the ball 0.2..... are you mad? Really, have you seen the damage? this was a lunging tackle from a position behind the player, desparate 100%. To say he got a toe on the ball before breaking an anlke imo is crazy. And you proclaim to be a saints fan. Honestly, you are talking ****e. Claiming to be a Saints fan lessens your point and highlights bias, it matters not who anyone supports and accusing someone of not supporting the side they actually do because they dont agree with you is ridiculous and childish. Professionals have called it unlucky and not a foul, the referee did and some on here, I'll go with them for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Claiming to be a Saints fan lessens your point and highlights bias, it matters not who anyone supports and accusing someone of not supporting the side they actually do because they dont agree with you is ridiculous and childish. Professionals have called it unlucky and not a foul, the referee did and some on here, I'll go with them for now. Take a break Barry. Go for a cr@p or something and do us all a favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAS Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Thats all well and god but many professionals dont think it was a foul and more importantly the referee did not, rough with the smooth, we whinge about the refs and we expect them to do us favours and give us 50/50's? The departed chairman started that belter as well, I did not see many complain about the West Brom penalty earlier on in the season.Not talking about cheating, diving etc here, but a brutal tackle on one of our players, yes one of our players, have you no loyalty. It was a horrible tackle, not meant, but horrible and 100% a foul. You amaze me. 50/50 what are you on about??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAS Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Claiming to be a Saints fan lessens your point and highlights bias, it matters not who anyone supports and accusing someone of not supporting the side they actually do because they dont agree with you is ridiculous and childish. Professionals have called it unlucky and not a foul, the referee did and some on here, I'll go with them for now.Sorry Barry have I upset someone? You shouldn't be so defensive towards other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Loyalty does not come into being fair and having an unbaised opinion, I wont ever support another football team if thats to what you poorly refer? The 50/50's was after our complaint against Clattenburg and how they will without knowing award every split decision against us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Sorry Barry have I upset someone? You shouldn't be so defensive towards other people. I'm being fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAS Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 I'm being fair.Ok, that's that one resolved.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Codger Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 But isn't the point ... under the rule quoted above by Whitey Grandad in post number 112, Brown had absolutely no right whatsoever to even consider making a challenge for the ball. Brown made a lunge from behind. Therefore it was a foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Durman Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 It is regardless whether he touched the ball or not it is red card and once again another referee has got it seriously against Southampton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 (edited) He makes a clean tackle and gets to the ball 0.2..... are you mad? Really, have you seen the damage? this was a lunging tackle from a position behind the player, desparate 100%. To say he got a toe on the ball before breaking an anlke imo is crazy. And you proclaim to be a saints fan. Honestly, you are talking ****e. What mental logic, if you're a saints fan it's impossible to think he COULD have made that tackle cleanly is it?!! Just seen it on MOTD and he did indeed get a toe on the ball before of contact with Ramirez, so I'm bang on the money as usual. Read the post again, take a deep breath and engage brain. The question was COULD he have made that tackle safely and got the ball? And did he deliberately try and foul and hurt Ramirez. The answer is of course yes, if he'd been slightly better positioned, slightly quicker, slide I slightly earlier, he makes a clean tackle the ball and wins it easily. you are talking fractions of seconds between a good tackle and a foul. Bit of course it's only Lunatic internet saints who think that this is impossible and what happened was he tried to snap Ramirez in half, nut job. Edited 19 January, 2014 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Of course not. You expect defenders not to make tackles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 Foul or no foul, he will likely be out for a while. A red card and free kick wouldn't have changed that. Shame as Gaston has given us something different from the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 19 January, 2014 Share Posted 19 January, 2014 It is regardless whether he touched the ball or not it is red card and once again another referee has got it seriously against Southampton Don't talk nonsense. Has Shearer got in in for Southampton, what about Michael Owen and the Commentator, what about the guys back in the studio Steve M and David James, what about Saints Manager and players who told Adam Blackmore they thought it was fair, have they all got in in for Southampton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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