Cameron's poster girl for help-to-buy

[pap]

Something we've talked about quite a bit on here, and for once, a local connection.

 

David Cameron has recently been seen in PR shots with Sharon Ray, a 30 year old Southampton mum who claims to have recently bought a property using the Help-To-Buy scheme.

 

Ol' Dave might have picked up a better example. The young mum in question is sales director for Enfields estate agents, bought the property through her own estate agent, and has a 33K convertible BMW as a company car. Oh, and the property was bought in June 2012. Not sure if help-to-buy was even available for non new-builds back then.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/david-camerons-struggling-single-mum-helptobuy-poster-girl-purchases-own-145000-flat-through-her-estate-agency-firm-9041091.html

http://legalaidandme.proboards.com/thread/8301/audacity-cameron-hypocrisy-help-buy?post-20923=undefined

 

Is this really what help-to-buy is supposed to be about?

[trousers]

http://www.trendingcentral.com/fact-check-camerons-help-buy-photoshoot-complete-fraud/

 

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sharon-odonnell-and-jumping-shark.html

[Whitey Grandad]

http://www.trendingcentral.com/fact-check-camerons-help-buy-photoshoot-complete-fraud/

 

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sharon-odonnell-and-jumping-shark.html

 

Too late, people will believe what they want to believe, the truth has no part in it.

[pap]

http://www.trendingcentral.com/fact-check-camerons-help-buy-photoshoot-complete-fraud/

 

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/sharon-odonnell-and-jumping-shark.html

 

You're really going to have to provide some context for those links, skip.

 

One of the big counter-claims is (shock horror) that it's a company car, mentioned in the OP. The evidence in the articles' favour is also an unreachable Twitter account. I agree with one of the commenters at on your second link:-

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

 

As a company car driver myself, I can tell you that anyone who drives a convertible BMW as a company car has to be earning a small fortune to cover the immense tax bill it incurs. An ecofriendly, low carbon Diesel hybrid in the lowest tax category this ain't...it's a showoff perk she has chosen herself and will incur a big monthly bill to keep doing. Companies do not need people driving convertible sports cars to do their jobs, and the tax system recognises this.

 

Let's not forget this woman invited the media of the nation into her home to take pictures of her, and her young child, as part of a PR stunt for the benefit of a Tory PM shown to be intent on helping people who are already rich at the expense of the poor, sick and disabled.

 

Ms O'Donnell has invited the public scrutiny on herself. She knew what she was doing. A simple hardworking mum who happened to be visited by Cameron on the offchance? No way...we all know how political PR stunts are put together and she would have willingly volunteered.

 

Zero sympathy. I mean Zero.

[bridge too far]

My daughter works for a large Estate Agency (although she doesn't sell houses). She's sits on the left politically but was quick to make the following observations:

 

1. Her job title means very little in relation to salary. She's not a company director, more likely a branch manager. Negotiators earn low basic salaries and hope to top their wages up with commission.

 

2. Whilst her car does look rather grand, most negotiators get company cars. My daughter has a 1 series BMW and she doesn't have to do anywhere near the travelling that a negotiator does. But, of course, she has to pay tax on it.

 

However, other criticisms are spot on. Help to Buy should be aimed more at low income / low deposit buyers rather than some people looking to buy properties up to £600K. No doubt, too, she gets support from her former partner for her child's upkeep and there may well have been a marital property that was sold and the equity split. But none of us know and you could say 'why should we'? But if she allows herself to be 'used' as a PR stunt, I guess she must expect to be examined.

 

She may well have beaten down the selling price but she wouldn't have got a 'discount' on the property price BECAUSE she was buying from her own agency. In fact Estate Agents have to declare if they have any financial interest in a property being sold.

[moonraker]

What do you all expect from representatives of 2 of the most untrustworthy professions in the land! did you hear the one about the politician and the estate agent!

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Too late, people will believe what they want to believe, the truth has no part in it.

 

You could say that about every part of this story right from the initial PR piece with Cameron. In any case if the Tory spin doctors had done their own research a bit better they might have found someone else. The only thing in the original PR piece I find a bit dubious is that she works for an Estate Agents and so has a vested interest in boosting activity and so her endorsement of right-to-buy is both personal and professional which isn't clear initially.

[pap]

You could say that about every part of this story right from the initial PR piece with Cameron. In any case if the Tory spin doctors had done their own research a bit better they might have found someone else. The only thing in the original PR piece I find a bit dubious is that she works for an Estate Agents and so has a vested interest in boosting activity and so her endorsement of right-to-buy is both personal and professional which isn't clear initially.

 

I think the strongest question that the OP asks is "Could they have picked someone better?".

 

Quite clearly, they could have.

[trousers]

I think the strongest question that the OP asks is "Could they have picked someone better?".

 

Quite clearly, they could have.

 

Wouldn't that have made it even more of a PR stunt though? The fact that they ended up with a 'poor choice' actually suggests that they had no intention of over-engineering the PR. Surely choosing someone relatively randomly is less disingenuous than going down the Peter Mandelson-esque route: fine-tooth-combing the land for someone that fitted the 'down trodden, woe is me' stereotype that these photo-shoots usually thrive on.

[pap]

Wouldn't that have made it even more of a PR stunt though? The fact that they ended up with a 'poor choice' actually suggests that they had no intention of over-engineering the PR. Surely choosing someone relatively randomly is less disingenuous than going down the Peter Mandelson-esque route: fine-tooth-combing the land for someone that fitted the 'down trodden, woe is me' stereotype that these photo-shoots usually thrive on.

 

Sorry mate, this is nonsense.

 

They've made poor choices throughout when it comes to personnel. I refer sir to the case of Jeremy Hunt, unfit to be Culture Secretary so gets a promotion to Health Secretary. You could also go with Andy Coulson, employed at Number 10 despite being personally tarred. Michael Gove is another candidate.

 

Some would argue that they've made poor choices in relation to this policy. The new build part, I can understand. We need new housing stock. A discount to prop up an over-inflated market? No thanks, and if you do want to sell it to normal people, probs best to use someone who doesn't have a professional conflict of interests with the policy at hand.

 

What's Cameron's next trick? A Through The Keyhole style visit to an MP's gaff, showing us all the new gold baths they can buy with their salaries?

[Gemmel]

Is this really what help-to-buy is supposed to be about?

 

Yes absolutely. People with the ability to pay the loans, but aren't in a position to put down huge deposits.

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10915887.Southampton_mum_who_met_Prime_Minister_hits_back_at_critics/?ref=twt

[trousers]

Sorry mate, this is nonsense.

 

Fair enough.

[Whitey Grandad]

You could say that about every part of this story right from the initial PR piece with Cameron. In any case if the Tory spin doctors had done their own research a bit better they might have found someone else. The only thing in the original PR piece I find a bit dubious is that she works for an Estate Agents and so has a vested interest in boosting activity and so her endorsement of right-to-buy is both personal and professional which isn't clear initially.

 

Absolutely. Always maintain a healthy scepticism and you won't go far wrong.

 

I think the strongest question that the OP asks is "Could they have picked someone better?".

 

Quite clearly, they could have.

 

What, are estate agents not a valid representative member of modern British society then?

[Scummer]

Let's be honest. Less than 750 homes nationwide have so far been bought through this scheme. He came to Southampton for a couple of photo opportunities, the other was at the Vospers site in Woolston which is being redeveloped. How many of those 750 homes will have been in Southampton? She may well be the only one they had to choose from. The fact that she's quite attractive and has a cute little daughter will have also helped.

[benjii]

What a bizarre thread. The scheme is supposed to help ordinary people. In my experience, estate agents are extremely normal, at best.

 

It might be hard for a "service company" tax paying, gob****e living in some hellish depressed dirt-cheap ghetto to understand but even a well earning young professional in the south has little hope of raising a deposit on anything other than a complete slum. I am privately educated and earn plenty, thanks, but even I would have had no hope of raising my 15% deposit on my semi any time soon without help from Mater.

[pap]

Yes absolutely. People with the ability to pay the loans, but aren't in a position to put down huge deposits.

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10915887.Southampton_mum_who_met_Prime_Minister_hits_back_at_critics/?ref=twt

 

The huge deposits are only required because of the huge house prices, which help-to-buy will help to perpetuate.

 

As I said before, I've no issue with this policy being used for new build. The theory goes that if we build enough, supply and demand laws should kick in, allowing access to affordable housing long-term.

 

In a wider sense, it's all boll*cks anyway. When you sign up for a mortgage, it's not like you've just taken a huge stash of cash from some big pile somewhere. Your signature creates the money in the system. Your repayments make it real. Quite a cosy arrangement if you run a bank. However, if you asked me to lend you £160K and I just printed it out and gave it to you, I'd be done for counterfeiting

[pap]

What a bizarre thread. The scheme is supposed to help ordinary people. In my experience, estate agents are extremely normal, at best.

 

It might be hard for a "service company" tax paying, gob****e living in some hellish depressed dirt-cheap ghetto to understand but even a well earning young professional in the south has little hope of raising a deposit on anything other than a complete slum. I am privately educated and earn plenty, thanks, but even I would have had no hope of raising my 15% deposit on my semi any time soon without help from Mater.

 

So you're privately educated, earn plenty yet cannot find 15% of £160,000?

 

Are you as good at making points as you are at managing money?

[pap]

Fair enough.

 

C'mon now. At least I qualify my points

[benjii]

So you're privately educated, earn plenty yet cannot find 15% of £160,000?

 

Are you as good at making points as you are at managing money?

 

This just proves what an out of touch fool you are. You are everything you despise but without the class. That must hurt.

[View From The Top]

So we think it's OK for the government to interfere in the market now?

 

Why should the government help those incapable of saving themselves? They should just move to areas they can afford instead if being bailed out. Scrounging bas*ards.

[Whitey Grandad]

The theory goes that if we build enough, supply and demand laws should kick in, allowing access to affordable housing long-term.

 

Not really, the more you build the more demand you create. If you build them they will come.

[Batman]

So we think it's OK for the government to interfere in the market now?

 

Why should the government help those incapable of saving themselves? They should just move to areas they can afford instead if being bailed out. Scrounging bas*ards.

 

bit odd. I could quite easily pay £1000 a month on a mortgage. yet dont have £20000 for a deposit right now.

the armed forces have been helping people for god knows how long.

 

 

would I be deemed a risk, despite earning not far of £50k a year?

personally, I dont think so at all. as said, easily pay a mortgage each month (and have done twice) but if I need £20k of my own money, then the place just does not get bought and the economy etc lose out

 

I would go as far to say that I am a pretty safe bet for a 100% mortgage. But they dont exist and I am just a scrounging bastard

Edited 6 January, 2014 by Batman

[pap]

This just proves what an out of touch fool you are. You are everything you despise but without the class. That must hurt.

 

I'm pleased with the nature of your reply. If you'd tried to argue a point instead of just going for a personal attack, I'd feel a lot worse about what I'm about to do.

 

This Christmas, I transferred money into my old dear's bank account to cover everyone in Southampton. That's her, the siblings, the nieces, the nephews and my granddad. Wasn't a huge amount of money for me, but meant a lot to them. Saved Chrimbo, apparently. Two of my immediate family have disabilities; my old dear has to look after them. They're all on benefits, as was I when I grew up in that house. I support one family full time and another whenever I can.

 

Today you've ventured onto a thread openly admitting that you were privately educated, earn "plenty", yet still need to seek financial assistance from your mum to buy a house. I may be a fool, but from my perspective, you're not even a man. You've had advantages over other kids and have ostensibly squandered them. Do you reckon your mum thinks your private school education was "money well spent" when you ask her for help in buying a house?

 

Do us all a favour. Phone your mum and get her to write your next post. You need the help, but FFS, don't show her your earlier stuff (or even this reply). The last thing she'd want to see would be her privately educated pride and joy had off by a nipper from the council estates.

[pap]

So we think it's OK for the government to interfere in the market now?

 

Why should the government help those incapable of saving themselves? They should just move to areas they can afford instead if being bailed out. Scrounging bas*ards.

 

Also, whatever happened to working your way up?

 

I'm out of the market until I'm more certain of space requirements. Juvenile Unit #1 trots off to Uni this year. #2 is off soon.

 

When I do re-enter the market, won't be aiming for a mansion. Plan is to get something cheap but marketable, pay it off quickly and take it from there. You're either rent-free or have a huge chunk of change to put down on somewhere else.

 

Too many people want it all now, imo. This scheme will be misused for upgrades.

[Batman]

Also, whatever happened to working your way up?

 

I'm out of the market until I'm more certain of space requirements. Juvenile Unit #1 trots off to Uni this year. #2 is off soon.

 

When I do re-enter the market, won't be aiming for a mansion. Plan is to get something cheap but marketable, pay it off quickly and take it from there. You're either rent-free or have a huge chunk of change to put down on somewhere else.

 

Too many people want it all now, imo. This scheme will be misused for upgrades.

 

why do you work your way up.?

why should someone who can very easily afford it be put off a 1 year, 2 years from buying a house/flat

 

it makes no sense to me

 

 

if you cant afford it, then.......

[View From The Top]

We want a big nice house and we want it now, now, now.

 

We want the government to pay for it as we don't want to save as we still want to do all the things we do.

 

Waaaahhhhh. life is so unfair.

[Batman]

We want a big nice house and we want it now, now, now.

 

We want the government to pay for it as we don't want to save as we still want to do all the things we do.

 

Waaaahhhhh. life is so unfair.

not really, would easily get a £20k loan instead should I wish and use that as as deposit, but that makes no real financial sense for something I do not really need

 

however, the forces have been giving people a leg up for donkeys years, this is just an extension of that

[pap]

why do you work your way up.?

why should someone who can very easily afford it be put off a 1 year, 2 years from buying a house/flat

 

it makes no sense to me

 

if you cant afford it, then.......

 

Affordability has got to be considered over the long-term. Someone whacking a 50% deposit down on a house is going to pay less over the long-term than someone putting down 15%.

[Batman]

Affordability has got to be considered over the long-term. Someone whacking a 50% deposit down on a house is going to pay less over the long-term than someone putting 15%.

 

indeed. but I am sure that there are plenty who have 0% deposit, yet have more money at their reach than someone with 10% deposit.

[aintforever]

You can't blame people for wanting to get on the housing ladder. In a way it is unfair, when I brought my first house I was completely skint and used a 101% mortgage. I sold it for a 30K profit a few years later even though it was in a worse condition to when I brought it.

 

The problem is schemes like this are just fueling another bubble, the crash will be much worse next time.

[shurlock]

I think the strongest question that the OP asks is "Could they have picked someone better?".

 

Quite clearly, they could have.

 

Could they?

 

Don't know the ins and outs of the scheme but if you're worried about credit/default risk, you'll always going to cherrypick the safest borrowers -scheme or no scheme. This is less a PR own goal than an unavoidable admission of the scheme's limits. Badging it as a scheme to help middle-class professionals get on the property ladder without mummy or daddy's silver spoon would have, at least, been honest.

Edited 6 January, 2014 by shurlock

[pap]

not really, would easily get a £20k loan instead should I wish and use that as as deposit, but that makes no real financial sense for something I do not really need

 

however, the forces have been giving people a leg up for donkeys years, this is just an extension of that

 

A 20K loan to get a deposit for a mortgage?

 

Point entirely missed.

[Batman]

A 20K loan to get a deposit for a mortgage?

 

Point entirely missed.

 

well, if I needed a house (for what ever reason) and I am excluded because I dont have £20k right there and then and I could afford it. why not?

pay it off after 5 years

[pap]

Could they?

 

Don't know the ins and outs of the scheme but if you're worried about credit/default risk, you'll always going to cherrypick the safest borrowers. Decent-sized deposits are required such that scheme or no scheme homeownership is still beyond the average saver.

 

This is less a PR own goal than an unavoidable admission of the scheme's limits.

 

Badging it as a scheme to help middle-class professionals get on the property ladder without mummy or daddy's silver spoon would have, at least, been honest.

 

At the very least, they could have chosen another trade than estate agent, which I'm sure has given this story a lot of its wind. Also, why didn't they do what all the bloggers did and check her Twitter account. The lush BMW (I am jealous, btw) was another own goal.

 

As I've said, no problem with the new build stimulus whatsoever. If the economists are right, the supply should lower the barrier of entry for everyone. The scheme seems to be a fillip to the banks, more than anything else. Deposits are a good idea; the less you owe those f**kers the better. If someone was able to find 10% of a deposit on their own, why can't they find the other 5%? Seems like one of those nefarious "get a house slightly faster" schemes that you hear so much about.

 

Long-term, the market should be doing this on its own. If the market flattens a little because it takes people longer to find deposits, and prices drop a little, that helps everyone trying to find deposits. I don't want to see wholesale price crashes, but long-term, the market needs to come down to something reasonable. Pepping it up like this won't help.

[LGTL]

I've just got a house, help to buy couldn't have come at a worse time for me as I had a 35% deposit and it totally flooded the market.

[OldNick]

At the very least, they could have chosen another trade than estate agent, which I'm sure has given this story a lot of its wind. Also, why didn't they do what all the bloggers did and check her Twitter account. The lush BMW (I am jealous, btw) was another own goal.

 

As I've said, no problem with the new build stimulus whatsoever. If the economists are right, the supply should lower the barrier of entry for everyone. The scheme seems to be a fillip to the banks, more than anything else. Deposits are a good idea; the less you owe those f**kers the better. If someone was able to find 10% of a deposit on their own, why can't they find the other 5%? Seems like one of those nefarious "get a house slightly faster" schemes that you hear so much about.

 

Long-term, the market should be doing this on its own. If the market flattens a little because it takes people longer to find deposits, and prices drop a little, that helps everyone trying to find deposits. I don't want to see wholesale price crashes, but long-term, the market needs to come down to something reasonable. Pepping it up like this won't help.

it must be disgusting that she can also afford a child. You'd almost think that the local Labour Party had set her up to be found by Cameron.

i thought the whole scheme was there to help get people on the housing ladder and also help kick start the economy.

if we go back to the 100% mortgages then the alarm bells will start ringing.

[Hockey_saint]

All I know is that Regent's park is probably the second most expensive road around those parts (ok, Shirley, but Shirley Avenue, the most expensive houses medical consultants and university lecturers so it's not that bad off). That house used to be a doctor's surgery apparently.

 

It's certainly worth a few bob (ok, it's broken down into two flats, but it's still probably not your A-typical example).

 

Plus, she claimed to be single but that's just a bit of a fib.

[trousers]

why didn't they do what all the bloggers did and check her Twitter account. The lush BMW (I am jealous, btw) was another own goal.

 

It's only an "own goal" if there are people in the world that get frothy at the mouth at such things... Oh...

[pap]

it must be disgusting that she can also afford a child. You'd almost think that the local Labour Party had set her up to be found by Cameron.

i thought the whole scheme was there to help get people on the housing ladder and also help kick start the economy.

if we go back to the 100% mortgages then the alarm bells will start ringing.

 

Maybe we should be asking some fundamental questions, like why earnings are now so far out from the cost of property. If people aren't buying because they can't afford it, prices should fall to affordable levels. The huge problems we got into were about people buying houses with money they couldn't afford, which banks were only to eager to finance.

 

The underlying issue is that property is too expensive and out of the reach of many. There's a massive knock-on effect for the rest of the economy too; any foreign company looking to invest here ultimately needs to pick up the rent/mortgages of all of its employees, a big part of why the likes of Cadburys have done the offs to Poland.

 

Prices need to come down. The new build stuff could have helped that in isolation; market forces should have done the rest. Never going to if we keep using taxpayer money to give this cash addict its next fix.

[pap]

It's only an "own goal" if there are people in the world that get frothy at the mouth at such things... Oh...

 

I can't find the appropriate option in Google Translate. Does this roughly mean "That's not an own goal in my universe, old bean!"?

 

Yeah, I know. Opinions, innit?

[buctootim]

It's only an "own goal" if there are people in the world that get frothy at the mouth at such things... Oh...

 

The only reason for any politician to do these photo opp events is to gain good publicity. If they get negative coverage as a result - which this one clearly has, then its an own goal. The staffer who organised it should be shot (or given a medal, depending on your point of view).

[Jonnyboy]

I'm pleased with the nature of your reply. If you'd tried to argue a point instead of just going for a personal attack, I'd feel a lot worse about what I'm about to do.

 

This Christmas, I transferred money into my old dear's bank account to cover everyone in Southampton. That's her, the siblings, the nieces, the nephews and my granddad. Wasn't a huge amount of money for me, but meant a lot to them. Saved Chrimbo, apparently. Two of my immediate family have disabilities; my old dear has to look after them. They're all on benefits, as was I when I grew up in that house. I support one family full time and another whenever I can.

 

Today you've ventured onto a thread openly admitting that you were privately educated, earn "plenty", yet still need to seek financial assistance from your mum to buy a house. I may be a fool, but from my perspective, you're not even a man. You've had advantages over other kids and have ostensibly squandered them. Do you reckon your mum thinks your private school education was "money well spent" when you ask her for help in buying a house?

 

Do us all a favour. Phone your mum and get her to write your next post. You need the help, but FFS, don't show her your earlier stuff (or even this reply). The last thing she'd want to see would be her privately educated pride and joy had off by a nipper from the council estates.

 

Its all gone quiet from Benji da snob.

 

God if I was on 50k I could save for deposit on a flat in no time, and I wouldn't be whinging about losing child benefit either.

[Jonnyboy]

Plus, she claimed to be single but that's just a bit of a fib.

 

Hockey! you dog! Spill the beans...

[Wade Garrett]

What a bizarre thread. The scheme is supposed to help ordinary people. In my experience, estate agents are extremely normal, at best.

 

It might be hard for a "service company" tax paying, gob****e living in some hellish depressed dirt-cheap ghetto to understand but even a well earning young professional in the south has little hope of raising a deposit on anything other than a complete slum. I am privately educated and earn plenty, thanks, but even I would have had no hope of raising my 15% deposit on my semi any time soon without help from Mater.

 

Spend a bit longer working and a bit less time topping up your 12000 posts and you might be able to earn a few quid more!

[wadesmith]

This is the girl that showed me round the flat I eventually bought in Shirley She's pretty cute...give her a break. Bit of a squeky voice though.

[badgerx16]

If you build them they will come.

 

That worked in Eire and Spain;

 

http://www.pie-mag.com/articles/5704/spain-s-unsold-housing-said-at-2-2m-to-take-six-years-to-clear/

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2531852/Exorcising-Irelands-ghost-estates-Demolition-begins-housing-projects-built-economic-boom-left-country-300-000-homes.html

[Whitey Grandad]

That worked in Eire and Spain;

 

http://www.pie-mag.com/articles/5704/spain-s-unsold-housing-said-at-2-2m-to-take-six-years-to-clear/

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2531852/Exorcising-Irelands-ghost-estates-Demolition-begins-housing-projects-built-economic-boom-left-country-300-000-homes.html

 

That's because they've all flooded into Britain. If we build millions of cheap housing then we'll be an even bigger people magnet.

[badgerx16]

That's because they've all flooded into Britain. If we build millions of cheap housing then we'll be an even bigger people magnet.

 

Will there be room for the Romanians and Bulgarians if we've been flooded by the Spanish and Irish ?

[buctootim]

That's because they've all flooded into Britain. If we build millions of cheap housing then we'll be an even bigger people magnet.

 

So all the Irish and Spanish have flooded into Britain - spurning their homelands excess cheap housing. However if we built more houses then people would flock here to take advantage of the cheap houses they weren't impressed by at home?

 

Righto, I'll mark you down with Guided Missile in the "lost the the plot but not to worry he wasn't actively searching for it anyway" file.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Help to buy is a ****ing disaster waiting to happen, its basically ploy for votes. The government has no business being in the lending game, its for building societies and banks to fund house buying. Nothing surprises me with this lot, but I still cant believe it is a Tory government proposing thus nonsense. Have they learnt nothing from the past .

 

The way to open up the housing ladder to more people is to build more ****ing houses, not lend people more money. If you inject more money into the market without increasing the supply , you just create a bubble . A bubble that will eventually burst. Any Tory with half a brain should be against this.