Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 What initially caused all the Lallana/Clattenburg fuss is the handball rule and how different it is interpreted by different refs. I for one would like them to change it so all handballing is a foul, whether it´s intentional or not. Easier for the refs and easier for the fans to understand. The only non calls would be if refs dont see it and that´s no different than today. All talk about players deliberately aiming for opponents arms and hands? Yes it might be some of those but at least it´s the same for all teams and all players then, which it is not with todays interpretation of the rule. Will add some videos just from this season....(yes I´m biased in my choice of videos....fans are like that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Tottanham-Hull. Referee (Michael Oliver) in the same position as Clattenburg were in our game at Everton. Anyone think PMGOL thought he got the major decision wrong in their reports?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BukgMCQCblg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 (edited) Norwich-Saints. No comments needed, ref is the great Howard Webb....(about 2:10 into the video) Edited 5 January, 2014 by Olallana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Crystal Palace-Tottenham. Referee Mark Clattenburg....so I guess this was a deliberate handball? http://rutube.ru/video/eb0efa578dee83bf8e147a825e97abfb/?bmstart=409 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow_Saint Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Oh dear god! Let it go These decisions even out. You win some you lose some Our 3rd goal yesterday could have been called a foul for example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 And then ours at Everton of course.... Not deliberate apparently, compare this one to Spurs-Hull.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Oh dear god! Let it go These decisions even out. You win some you lose some Our 3rd goal yesterday could have been called a foul for example Stay on topic, it´s not that hard you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 All handballs being a foul would be a bit of a nonsense. There are times when it is simply impossible to get the hands out of the way, and times when hands are in front of the players body so the handball doesn't make a huge difference in any case. That said the "intentional" handball rule is equally nonsensical, most handballs are not intentional. I think the current way the rule is applied works ok, but would prefer to see a rule whereby if the path of the ball is significantly altered and the player could reasonably have not had his hands in the path of the ball, then its handball. Not sure how that would get written down in the rules, but its almost the way it is applied these days in a lot of cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Tottanham-Hull. Referee (Michael Oliver) in the same position as Clattenburg were in our game at Everton. Anyone think PMGOL thought he got the major decision wrong in their reports?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BukgMCQCblg This one is less of a foul than ours at Everton, but it's all 'in the opinion of the referee' I'm afraid. There are a number of guidelines to consider such as whether the position of the hands and arms is 'natural'. It's supposed to be 'deliberate' but it's not very often that anyone decides to deliberately handball in the penalty area. What you have to consider is whether the player might reasonably have expected that his actions might result in the ball hitting his arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Oh dear god! Let it go These decisions even out. You win some you lose some Our 3rd goal yesterday could have been called a foul for example Or a penalty? All the players seemed to stop playing, ours waiting for a penalty and theirs for a foul on the keeper. I was looking at the linesman in case there was offside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Its fine as it is, if you stand there and let me blast a ball at your face 10 times, see how many times you keep your hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Its fine as it is, if you stand there and let me blast a ball at your face 10 times, see how many times you keep your hands down. I'd pay to watch that, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Its fine as it is, if you stand there and let me blast a ball at your face 10 times, see how many times you keep your hands down. Yeah that´s a normal football situation, isn´t it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 All you need to know is that yesterday outside the box Lennon went to close down an Arsenal player who booted the ball as hard as he could. It struck Lennon on the arm from a few yards out and the Ref gave a free kick. The Spurs players and bench went mental. But the Ref said it hit his arm so it is a free kick. The commentators said it was very easy for the Ref to give that free kick outside the box. The Referee? Mark Clattenburg. So even Clattenburg can't make his mind up properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Yeah that´s a normal football situation, isn´t it.... What, having the ball kicked at you from close range? Of course it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 What, having the ball kicked at you from close range? Of course it is. 10 times? Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 10 times? Ok. Could you not really understand the point, then? That putting your hands up to defend yourself when a ball is kicked at your face from close range is a natural reaction? Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Could you not really understand the point, then? That putting your hands up to defend yourself when a ball is kicked at your face from close range is a natural reaction? Ok. Yeah I understand that. What I dont understand is why its deemed a foul by the referee one time but not another for the same thing. Do you understand that or do you just think it´s fine and good for the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Yeah I understand that. What I dont understand is why its deemed a foul by the referee one time but not another for the same thing. Do you understand that or do you just think it´s fine and good for the game? I think I explained my opinion on it in post #8. Which part wasn't clear from that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 I think I explained my opinion on it in post #8. Which part wasn't clear from that? Mostly how it works ok when same situations are deemed differently week in and week out. But that´s a matter of opinions so not much more to discuss there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 That said the "intentional" handball rule is equally nonsensical, most handballs are not intentional. I think the current way the rule is applied works ok, but would prefer to see a rule whereby if the path of the ball is significantly altered and the player could reasonably have not had his hands in the path of the ball, then its handball. Not sure how that would get written down in the rules, but its almost the way it is applied these days in a lot of cases. Most handballs are not intentional, but some certainly are. But your comment about the path of the ball being significantly altered and the player being reasonably capable of not having his hand in the way of the ball, pretty well descibes the Lallana incident to a tee. The videos posted highlight the fact that referees like Clattenburg aren't consistent from one match to another, so that highlights the possibility that certain referees will give penalties at some grounds and then disallow similar other ones at other grounds. Whether that is because of the reputation and size of the club, its fans or manager influencing the decision, it isn't fair on those smaller clubs. All one asks for is consistency. If we have penalties disallowed by a particular referee when he gives almost identical ones to other clubs, then we are entitled to question the impartiality or competance of that referee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Most handballs are not intentional, but some certainly are. But your comment about the path of the ball being significantly altered and the player being reasonably capable of not having his hand in the way of the ball, pretty well descibes the Lallana incident to a tee. The videos posted highlight the fact that referees like Clattenburg aren't consistent from one match to another, so that highlights the possibility that certain referees will give penalties at some grounds and then disallow similar other ones at other grounds. Whether that is because of the reputation and size of the club, its fans or manager influencing the decision, it isn't fair on those smaller clubs. All one asks for is consistency. If we have penalties disallowed by a particular referee when he gives almost identical ones to other clubs, then we are entitled to question the impartiality or competance of that referee. I agree that Lallana's should have been a penalty. The defender could quite reasonably have not had his hand where it was, and it affected the flight of the ball. Any incident where the defender has his arms stretched out like that are fair game for a handball IMO. Its just incidents where the hands are very close to the body and particularly being used for self-defence that I'd have an issue with for this "its handball if it hits the hand in all cases" scenario, I think that's an unfair rule. The current rule is far too loose so the refs have their own interpretation of it, but it would seem that there are different ways for them all to interpret it. I wouldn't question Clattenburg's impartiality, just his ability as a referee. But I don't think the current rule helps, it leaves too much open to interpretation. But olallana's 100% handball remedy is a step too far IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Saint Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Different rules for different 'occasions' Its always been the way. Shame really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoozer Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Better refs (with video replay for support) would be better imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huffton Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 No one intentionally handballs it in the area, because a deliberate pre meditated handball is a red card offence. Surely if the hand/arm is away from the body its a handball, for ****enburg to say different is a nonsense and shows he's not up to the job as he doesn't know the most basic of rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Better refs (with video replay for support) would be better imho. When things are 'a matter of opinion' all that you're doing is asking for another opinion because you didn't like the first. There are guidelines which all these referees are taken through at seminars but there will always be grey areas. Ball strikes the hand is a bit trash but hand strikes the ball should normally be a foul in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoozer Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 By viewing something not in real time and from different angles you can inform your opinion. I think video replay in certain circumstances would improve the decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 All handballs being a foul would be a bit of a nonsense. There are times when it is simply impossible to get the hands out of the way, and times when hands are in front of the players body so the handball doesn't make a huge difference in any case. That said the "intentional" handball rule is equally nonsensical, most handballs are not intentional. I think the current way the rule is applied works ok, but would prefer to see a rule whereby if the path of the ball is significantly altered and the player could reasonably have not had his hands in the path of the ball, then its handball. Not sure how that would get written down in the rules, but its almost the way it is applied these days in a lot of cases. Absolutely. What about if the ball strikes a players hand when he's protecting his face or balls? How can you penalise someone for protecting themselves from potentially serious pain ? Why should someone be penalised for the ball bouncing up at them awkwardly from 2 yards away when they are making a genuine Attempt to play the ball? The rules aren't that difficult to Internet it's it's a lot of fans are too thick and biased to get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 I agree that Lallana's should have been a penalty. The defender could quite reasonably have not had his hand where it was, and it affected the flight of the ball. Any incident where the defender has his arms stretched out like that are fair game for a handball IMO. Its just incidents where the hands are very close to the body and particularly being used for self-defence that I'd have an issue with for this "its handball if it hits the hand in all cases" scenario, I think that's an unfair rule. The current rule is far too loose so the refs have their own interpretation of it, but it would seem that there are different ways for them all to interpret it. I wouldn't question Clattenburg's impartiality, just his ability as a referee. But I don't think the current rule helps, it leaves too much open to interpretation. But olallana's 100% handball remedy is a step too far IMO. Classic thick mongboard fans would be screaming Lallanas was a penalty but apparently the one given against Fox wasnt or ' debatable' both of them clear pens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 What drives me nuts about the rule is not just the fact that different referees interpret it in different ways, but that the same referee interprets it differently from game to game. Even if there's an inherent unfairness in the interpretation ("Ref, I was just protecting my face/nuts"), I could deal with it as long as there's consistency. With all the referees' meetings and the supposed assessment & feedback mechanics, it's infuriating that they're no closer to consistency than they were five years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 I think if the ball hits a hand when it's between the ball and the "offenders" body it shouldn't be a handball (i.e, if it was going to hit another part of his body anyway). But if their hands are out and they stop the ball from going past them using their hand - whether intentional or not - it should be a handball. You can say it's harsh all you like, but so is sending someone off if they accidentally bring someone down as last man. The point is when you have a set of rules they shouldn't be left open to interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 (edited) And then ours at Everton of course.... Not deliberate apparently, compare this one to Spurs-Hull.... you can watch this 100 times and IMO the defender is not "protecting " his face or body, or even attempting to turn his body away from the shot. If he were..... he would have raised his left arm ..but he doesn't. The ball passes his body and he raises his right arm... (which is by his side when the cross is made), and deflects the ball away. Handball. (what's "accidental " about that?). ----PENALTY! Edited 5 January, 2014 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Better refs (with video replay for support) would be better imho. By better Refs do you mean those that agree with your Opinion The ones in the PL are the best in the country I doubt you could bring someone off the street who would be better than Clattenberg By the way what surprises me about the Everton incident is the way that the hand is flapping away from the ball after impact Would have been a harsh Penalty as the ball was a long way from goal and there seemed to be cover and it was very near the defender in the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 you can watch this 100 times and IMO the defender is not "protecting " his face or body, or ven attempting to turn his body away. If he were..... he would have raised his left arm ..he doesn't. His right arm is by his side... when the cross is made and he brings his arm up and deflects the ball away up and away . (what's "accidental " about that?). ----PENALTY! Has anyone said it wasn't a penalty then?apart from Mark Clattenburg, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Has anyone said it wasn't a penalty then?apart from Mark Clattenburg, obviously. Few fans of other clubs have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 oooooooooooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 I think if the ball hits a hand when it's between the ball and the "offenders" body it shouldn't be a handball (i.e, if it was going to hit another part of his body anyway). But if their hands are out and they stop the ball from going past them using their hand - whether intentional or not - it should be a handball. You can say it's harsh all you like, but so is sending someone off if they accidentally bring someone down as last man. The point is when you have a set of rules they shouldn't be left open to interpretation. Not harsh at all, I think that's exactly how the rule should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Has anyone said it wasn't a penalty then?apart from Mark Clattenburg, obviously. PMGOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 PMGOL. What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludgershallsaint Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 I think the main issue behind this is the fact that it was Clattenberg's first game at Goodison park in 6, yes 6 years. We don't have a good history with him and the club were unhappy with him being appointed as it looked like we were some sort of patsy in an attempt to get him back at Goodison park in a "low key" fixture. As it turned out there was some controversy and now we're trying to get him removed from our fixtures. Something I'm sure all saints supporters would like to see. Exactly the sort of thing SAF would've done and would have been allowed to get away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 5 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 5 January, 2014 What? The referees union (or whatever they are) that said Clattenburg had got all major decisions right in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 The referees union (or whatever they are) that said Clattenburg had got all major decisions right in the game. What do you except? They close rank and protect their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 It may se childish but referring this season for all teams has been terrible About time another club apart from the 4 or so glory clubs said something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 It may se childish but referring this season for all teams has been terrible About time another club apart from the 4 or so glory clubs said something Has it really, though? I keep hearing that this season has been the worst for refereeing for many years. Is it? Or does the media just exaggerate everything to the nth degree, placing expectations on officials to get every single decision correct. Referees now are fitter than they've ever been, they're subjected to the highest amount of cheating, simulation and diving than ever before, and they're under enormous media scrutiny every single game. Its gotten so ridiculous that almost every single game a team loses, the manager will deflect blame from him or the team and blame the ref for a minor incident, which the media just love. The haranguing of refs by players and managers is obscene, really. I'd like to see something proper done about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 After the " Lampard non-goal " fiasco , Sepp Blatter was forced into a " face-saving " action by introducing goal-line technology that will probably only be called upon a few times a season, whereas fans can watch Sky /BBC and see major injustices in the form of; penalty shouts, off sides and " diving " every week that go by without any recourse simply because ...." the ref didn't see it "... whereas the commentators and millions of watching fans know the real truth. A simple video replay takes less than 10 seconds and is often available from several different angles. If I can watch the game from a thousand miles away, so too can the fourth official sitting next to a monitor. The technology exists and it should be used, or it leaves open the dubious (and as yet unproven cases) for "match-fixing" by practically anyone involved with the game. What we see now is often pure fantasy, and sooner or later such events are going to cost some team ...a title-winning place, a relegation spot .....or even a major Cup Final win. I always felt it would be the total irony if the result of a World Cup, the highest level of football was wrongly decide because of a mistake by a match official. ...AND don't let anyone start quoting 1966. England won 4-2 ...the legality (or otherwise of that 3rd goal) was purely academic in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 By the way what surprises me about the Everton incident is the way that the hand is flapping away from the ball after impact Would have been a harsh Penalty as the ball was a long way from goal and there seemed to be cover and it was very near the defender in the first place The ball was not as far away from the goal as it was when Clyne scored last night. There is no rule that says that a penalty decision is determined by the distance from goal, apart from the handball being within the penalty area. As far as I'm aware, the mention of there being cover is also ambiguous. Here is some guidance for you:- http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/11334 What is particularly interesting, is the fact that the defender's arm moved towards the ball and that the ball hit the players hand, rather than his arm, which makes the penalty decision even more clear cut. The distance the defender was away from Lallana could be excusable if he had not the time to move his arm/hand away from the ball, not when he had time to move his hand towards the ball. I'm afraid that in view of Clattenburg's rubbish refereeing, I'm inclined to believe that quite a high proportion of people brought off the street could do a better job than him on this evidence, provided that they knew the rules and how they should be interpreted. I assume that Clattenburg knows the rules, but had some other agenda which outweighed his inclination to be even-handed to us, like not wishing to offend the Everton fans again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Has it really, though? I keep hearing that this season has been the worst for refereeing for many years. Is it? Or does the media just exaggerate everything to the nth degree, placing expectations on officials to get every single decision correct. Referees now are fitter than they've ever been, they're subjected to the highest amount of cheating, simulation and diving than ever before, and they're under enormous media scrutiny every single game. Its gotten so ridiculous that almost every single game a team loses, the manager will deflect blame from him or the team and blame the ref for a minor incident, which the media just love. The haranguing of refs by players and managers is obscene, really. I'd like to see something proper done about it. I would say so. or so many howlers happen. no one expects refs to get everything right. but how do you square clattenberg giving a penalty against us for a shirt pull and not one since for anyone? but the howlers this season are just not good enough as for players and managers, the certainly get taken to task by fans and media when they dont do so well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwichsaint Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 By better Refs do you mean those that agree with your Opinion The ones in the PL are the best in the country I doubt you could bring someone off the street who would be better than Clattenberg By the way what surprises me about the Everton incident is the way that the hand is flapping away from the ball after impact Would have been a harsh Penalty as the ball was a long way from goal and there seemed to be cover and it was very near the defender in the first place Have I missed the memo or something? When have either of these instances ever been considerations in relation to handball? Or to giving any other sort of Penalty kick/free kick (anywhere on the pitch). You are confusing issuing 'cards' with issuing Penalty kicks and Free kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 I would say so. or so many howlers happen. no one expects refs to get everything right. but how do you square clattenberg giving a penalty against us for a shirt pull and not one since for anyone? but the howlers this season are just not good enough as for players and managers, the certainly get taken to task by fans and media when they dont do so well Fair enough. I think there's been some bad decisions this season but not overly more than other seasons. Clattenberg's was a mistake, but I've said on this thread that I don't think the current rule does anyone any favours, its too loose in its application and leaves too much grey area. As bad as they might be perceived, the current batch of officials are the best there are in this country. They could do better, but they're a hell of a lot better than the podgy old buggers who used to waddle around the pitch in the 70s, 80s and even early 90s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 January, 2014 Share Posted 5 January, 2014 Have I missed the memo or something? When have either of these instances ever been considerations in relation to handball? Or to giving any other sort of Penalty kick/free kick (anywhere on the pitch). You are confusing issuing 'cards' with issuing Penalty kicks and Free kicks. All in here: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/28/law12-en.pdf Be warned that these interpretations change with the state of the tide and direction of the wind. (Actually that's not true, they are usually only changed in the summer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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