Colinjb Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I really want to hear a good argument against this. UEFA probably wouldn't allow it unless they extended the same offer to all countries with a high enough coefficient. Not sure what the implications of that would be. Other reasons I could think of: - Uber-established top three clubs may not take it any more seriously - If it was applied across all the top nations you risk having some seriously crappy teams in the Group Stages, reducing the credibility of the Champions League. - The sacking-spending frenzies of Premier League owners could go into complete meltdown if they started sacking managers for going out of the cup and denying them their jackpot Isn't there an issue with who exactly can sanction the qualifying places? The authority to this is given to the Premier League, a different organisation to the F.A. and I cannot see the P.L. letting one of these spaces go to a competition that works alongside them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Well I can't speak for anyone else but I'm 'up for the cup' as usual and will be there at St Marys tomorrow with a certain notorious 7 year old in tow, a boy who let me tell you is fast becoming rather (over)excited by the prospect of seeing his heroes play again. I have tried to patiently explain to him that we are unlikely to see many of our better players turn out for us tomorrow, but thinking back I might be wrong because I seem to remember we actually put out quite a strong team this time last year - and got thumped 5-1 by bloody Chelsea again for our troubles! Nevertheless, we're probably going to finish this season in some respectable (but let's face it rather dull) midtable place. So I say let's push the boat out and go all out for Cup success this season. If you don't even try then you'll never know just how far we could get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I really want to hear a good argument against this. You only have to win six games in order to win the FA Cup (assuming the winners start in the third round), and you could be drawn against teams from lower divisions throughout the entire competition. In the league, you play 38 games, of which historically you need to win at least half in order to qualify for the Champions League. There's no comparison, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Always excited by the FA Cup, but unfortunately the Cup won't be seen as anywhere near as important as it should be as we should now, according to "popular" opinion, supposedly concentrate on achieving mid table PL mediocrity at the expense of a fun cup run (can't have both - obviously), so I fully expect the second string to perform somewhere near their most average and narrowly lose to a Burnley side wanting it far more, in the last five minutes. I hope I am proved wrong, but won't be surprised if not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 (edited) The FA cup became less important when the all day TV coverage on cup final day stopped. Anyone remember the "It's a knockout" competition Versus MU? Saints losing that competition was the fortelling of our cup final win.........Anyway.......If it's not on the telly all day, like it used to be, then yeah, the FA cup is not as shiny as it used to be. Edit: just look at the superbowl in the US. It's a pile of crap and commercials, but the more they promote it, the more important they think it is. They even think that people in other countries care about it! Edited 3 January, 2014 by Ohio Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomobz Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Love the FA Cup. Even when Saints go out the draw is always interesting to see who gets drawn against who. Who wouldn't get excited by us drawing the skates? Or a non league side away? Or Luton away to Millwall? Magic! I hope we go all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 The FA cup became less important when the all day TV coverage on cup final day stopped. Anyone remember the "It's a knockout" competition Versus MU? Saints losing that competition was the fortelling of our cup final win.........Anyway.......If it's not on the telly all day, like it used to be, then yeah, the FA cup is not as shiny as it used to be. Edit: just look at the superbowl in the US. It's a pile of crap and commercials, but the more they promote it, the more important they think it is. They even think that people in other countries care about it! Coverage was on both BBC and ITV with highlights again on MoTD on Saturday night and on The Big Match on Sunday. I have missed only one FA Cup Final either on TV or occasionally attending since Everton v Sheffield Wednesday which was in the mid 60's I think. The one I missed I think I had a mow the lawn or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I really want to hear a good argument against this. UEFA probably wouldn't allow it unless they extended the same offer to all countries with a high enough coefficient. Not sure what the implications of that would be. Other reasons I could think of: - Uber-established top three clubs may not take it any more seriously - If it was applied across all the top nations you risk having some seriously crappy teams in the Group Stages, reducing the credibility of the Champions League. Though perhaps the likes of Wigan wouldn't have made it so far if every team took the cup seriously - The sacking-spending frenzies of Premier League owners could go into complete meltdown if they started sacking managers for going out of the cup and denying them their jackpot The fact is that you can't have teams qualifying for the Champions League based off the back of 6 games. It's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint-Fred Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 In the position we are in this season, only 13 points needed to avoid relegation and not much chance of finishing many places higher, is there ever going to be a better opportunity to have a real go at the cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 In the position we are in this season, only 13 points needed to avoid relegation and not much chance of finishing many places higher, is there ever going to be a better opportunity to have a real go at the cup? Agree Without wishing to be complacent, I think it’s fair to say that our excellent start to the season means that we're unlikely to be in a relegation fight this season. On the other hand, recent events mean we're equally unlikely to be pushing for a top eight finish in the Premiership. Therefore, I think we’re ideally placed to give the FA Cup a really good shot this season, especially as most of the teams above us won’t be prioritising this competition. As someone who is lucky enough to have witnessed our 1976 FA Cup success, plus the aforementioned 1977 cup matches against Forest (definitely in my top Saints’ related memories), even a good cup run in a sadly devalued competition would be so much better than just watching the season peter out. It’s a way we can make our good start to the season count for something. I will be very disappointed if we play our second eleven tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Well I can't speak for anyone else but I'm 'up for the cup' as usual and will be there at St Marys tomorrow with a certain notorious 7 year old in tow, a boy who let me tell you is fast becoming rather (over)excited by the prospect of seeing his heroes play again. I have tried to patiently explain to him that we are unlikely to see many of our better players turn out for us tomorrow, but thinking back I might be wrong because I seem to remember we actually put out quite a strong team this time last year - and got thumped 5-1 by bloody Chelsea again for our troubles! Nevertheless, we're probably going to finish this season in some respectable (but let's face it rather dull) midtable place. So I say let's push the boat out and go all out for Cup success this season. If you don't even try then you'll never know just how far we could get. You might want to warn him Guly is fit and likely to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepgar Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Really not fused about cups to be honest. The league is so important and the chances of winning the cups are so slim (you could say the same about the league I suppose) but the league for me is where its at. The beauty of playing top sides all the time, the chance to get in a high enough position to play in the european cups is far more a "win" because it shows how good you are over the course of 38 games. Not you played well on one occasion or had an easy ride to the final. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I'm pleased because it's another home game I can go to and one that we have a good chance of winning. Nothing more than that really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 In the position we are in this season, only 13 points needed to avoid relegation and not much chance of finishing many places higher, is there ever going to be a better opportunity to have a real go at the cup? I couldn't agree more! http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/entry.php?115-No-Man-s-Land Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 (edited) Really not fused about cups to be honest. The league is so important and the chances of winning the cups are so slim (you could say the same about the league I suppose) but the league for me is where its at. The beauty of playing top sides all the time, the chance to get in a high enough position to play in the european cups is far more a "win" because it shows how good you are over the course of 38 games. Not you played well on one occasion or had an easy ride to the final. Personally, I don't quite get this logic. I'm not massively excited by finishing 8th, 9th, 10th or 11th - and we'll finish in one of those spots come the end of the year. I want to win something, I want a trip to Wembley and a real reason to remember and look back on a season. Mid-table mediocrity and early knock outs in the cups don't excite me, and although you cannot deny the progress the club has made (it's been tremendous), we're still a few years away from breaking into the Top 6 (although we will get there, but not this year), and decades and billions away from being able to compete to win the league - therefore I'd like us to go all out and attempt to win a cup. On our day, with a fully fit squad, we can beat anyone. And with a favorable draw, we should be able to get pretty far with this squad we've got. Although the skate ****s are at the level they deserve to be now, they had 2 great FA Cup finals and those will live long in their memory, as will their recent FA Cup win. We need to get some silverware, we've got the squad and the setup to do it in the cups. Finishing 8th, 11th, 9th, or whatever is academic to me - resting players in the cups or 'concentrating' on the league isn't really going to leapfrog us above Everton, Newcastle, Spurs, Liverpool and propel us into Europe. Getting to the final and winning the FA Cup is our best route to Europe this year, without question. Edited 3 January, 2014 by S-Clarke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepgar Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I'm pleased because it's another home game I can go to and one that we have a good chance of winning. Nothing more than that really. You do realise where Burnley are in the Champ right? They will definitely see this as a winnable game. Our form is right down there at the moment. Might even be worth a cheeky bet on Burnley probably get great odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepgar Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Personally, I don't quite get this logic. I'm not massively excited by finishing 8th, 9th, 10th or 11th - and we'll finish in one of those spots come the end of the year. I want to win something, I want a trip to Wembley and a real reason to remember and look back on a season. Mid-table mediocrity and early knock outs in the cups don't excite me, and although you cannot deny the progress the club has made (it's been tremendous), we're still a few years away from breaking into the Top 6 (although we will get there, but not this year), and decades and billions away from being able to compete to win the league - therefore I'd like us to go all out and attempt to win a cup. On our day, with a fully fit squad, we can beat anyone. And with a favorable draw, we should be able to get pretty far with this squad we've got. Although the skate ****s are at the level they deserve to be now, they had 2 great FA Cup finals and those will live long in their memory, as will their recent FA Cup win. We need to get some silverware, we've got the squad and the setup to do it in the cups. Finishing 8th, 11th, 9th, or whatever is academic to me - resting players in the cups or 'concentrating' on the league isn't really going to leapfrog us above Everton, Newcastle, Spurs, Liverpool and propel us into Europe. Getting to the final and winning the FA Cup is our best route for Europe this year. I hear what you are saying and i did love it when we went to Cardiff. But when we get three points in the bag from a league win that to me feels like winning the cup. Especially when in the prem. because it is so hard to get a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 You do realise where Burnley are in the Champ right? They will definitely see this as a winnable game. Our form is right down there at the moment. Might even be worth a cheeky bet on Burnley probably get great odds. Absolutely. They are certainly at least lower Premier League level but we are at home and both teams probably have other priorities so it should be an interesting game. It all depends which team we put out and which turns up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I hear what you are saying and i did love it when we went to Cardiff. But when we get three points in the bag from a league win that to me feels like winning the cup. Especially when in the prem. because it is so hard to get a win. But, nothing is guaranteed. We could rest everyone tomorrow and pay not attention to the cup what so ever, and then lose our next 2 leagues. We rested everyone against Sunderland in the league cup to protect from injuries, and then on the back of that went on to have an injury crisis and lost lots of games - so resting players was pretty pointless all being told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 But, nothing is guaranteed. We could rest everyone tomorrow and pay not attention to the cup what so ever, and then lose our next 2 leagues. We rested everyone against Sunderland in the league cup to protect from injuries, and then on the back of that went on to have an injury crisis and lost lots of games - so resting players was pretty pointless all being told. If it is pointless. Why does nearly 100% of managers do it. Dyche tomorrow will name a changed line up compared to if this was a top of the champ league game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 If it is pointless. Why does nearly 100% of managers do it. Dyche tomorrow will name a changed line up compared to if this was a top of the champ league game I don't think he will, he's come out and said that it will be pretty much the same time - barring 1 or 2 injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 If it is pointless. Why does nearly 100% of managers do it. Dyche tomorrow will name a changed line up compared to if this was a top of the champ league game His point was that it can be pointless, not that it is. There's always a degree of chance and luck in these things. Appologies to S-Clarke if i'm getting the wrong end of the stick mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Absolutely. They are certainly at least lower Premier League level but we are at home and both teams probably have other priorities so it should be an interesting game. It all depends which team we put out and which turns up. What is our other priority? We're not going down and we won't finish sixth, so I struggle to work out what else is so important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 His point was that it can be pointless, not that it is. There's always a degree of chance and luck in these things. I agree. Just saying that every single manager (more or less) does it over league games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I agree. Just saying that every single manager (more or less) does it over league games. Which you can understand, it's just bizarre how we have gotten the thin end of the wedge over the last month or so! If you could have written a worse case scenario it could almost have happened word for word. Perhaps some karmic payback for our more unlikely wins that kept us up at the back end of last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 His point was that it can be pointless, not that it is. There's always a degree of chance and luck in these things. Appologies to S-Clarke if i'm getting the wrong end of the stick mind. Nope, you've got it. Can be pointless is what I meant. That's why I kind of think, let's just go for it. There's nothing to really lose. I'm not against resting a few, and giving a couple of talented young players a chance....but changing the entire team, and bringing in players like Jos and Fox isn't exactly my idea of fun. It will be interesting to see the team tomorrow anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 What is our other priority? We're not going down and we won't finish sixth, so I struggle to work out what else is so important. Prize money for league position, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 (edited) Nope, you've got it. Can be pointless is what I meant. That's why I kind of think, let's just go for it. There's nothing to really lose. I'm not against resting a few, and giving a couple of talented young players a chance....but changing the entire team, and bringing in players like Jos and Fox isn't exactly my idea of fun. It will be interesting to see the team tomorrow anyway! Particularly as far as league position and form are concerned. The team want European football, well, the Europa league is the only reachable competition this season and even then it may be impossible to do it in via the league. I personally believe that the cup should be our priority now! Edited 3 January, 2014 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Well, we have played fox and jos against better teams than burnley Man of glass shaw was always going to sit the cup game out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Prize money for league position, I suppose. I don't have any tattoos, but if we finish 6th this season I'll be getting one of the prize money cheque on my arm to go with my photo of Cortese holding the cheque aloft and pointing it in the direction of our celebrating fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I don't have any tattoos, but if we finish 6th this season I'll be getting one of the prize money cheque on my arm to go with my photo of Cortese holding the cheque aloft and pointing it in the direction of our celebrating fans. That would be worth seeing, but last season the prize money was over £700k per league position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 That would be worth seeing, but last season the prize money was over £700k per league position. So, not much really. Our whole season will come down to winning an extra 1.4M or so? That's a priority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 So, not much really. Our whole season will come down to winning an extra 1.4M or so? That's a priority? Not my choice, that's down to the businessmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bender Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I am going to the game because it costs me £20 for me and my nipper, not £50 like the Chelsea game. If we go out of the cup early, the season is a non event for me. No chance of going down and probably not quite at the level needed for Euro qualification. Even in 2003 when the prem was established & lucrative and the cup final was at Cardiff it still meant more. I'll be seriously p155ed off with the Saints if we mug the cup off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Not my choice, that's down to the businessmen. I seriously doubt that it's Cortese choice either. The majority of clubs in the league could face a relegation battle or the prospect of one throughout a season and these clubs will always prioritise the league. A few are chasing Champions League gold and rest won't be going all out to make an extra £700K above all else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Although the FA Cup does not have the same aura it had in the 60's & 70's it is still a major domestic trophy to win in my book (probably an age thing I know). There are a number of reasons it has fallen in significance, largely the media and its saturation coverage removing some of the excitement. But what do supporters talk about most from WGS reign at the club, FA Cup final, finishing 8th that season, or the fact we were briefly 4th in December of that year ? It seems a pity NC and MP might have abandoned this cup, if indeed they have. Going out of the cup will leave a very empty season remaining where we most likely play out the rest of the season to see if we can finish 7th or 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 You only have to win six games in order to win the FA Cup (assuming the winners start in the third round), and you could be drawn against teams from lower divisions throughout the entire competition. In the league, you play 38 games, of which historically you need to win at least half in order to qualify for the Champions League. There's no comparison, IMO. ^ This. Instead of Arsenal qualifying with 12 points from a group of death, and playing Bayern in the next round, we'd have Wigan (probably) getting knocked out in the preliminary round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 The magic has well and truly gone. I used to love looking for all the matches that might be a giant killing and follow those along with the Saints game. Always such a disappointment when the Saints were out and you'd have to wait for a whole year for them to try again. Semi finals day used to be great, watch both games and pick a team to cheer for in the final usually a team with one of your favorite non Saints players in, you wouldn't do that nowadays, most footballers seem like ****s with no connection to the fans. It's a real shame for players from the really tiny teams to draw a big club and then barely know any of the players on the other team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 3rd round day used to be one of my favourite days of the sporting calendar but it's not quite the same anymore. I'm not even interested in going to watch Saints Reserves vs Burnley tomorrow. It's a shame. I don't know how much money a club makes from winning the cup but it's probably dwarfed by the prize money of a few places in the Premier League. In days gone by I think the cups used to be a bit of a money spinner, that's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I still love FA Cup 3rd round day, but the build up to the final is never the same. Used to start on the morning of the final with the players at the hotel, follow them to Wembley..... Terrible now 17:15 kick off, before the end of the regular season. But I look toward to tomorrow and hope the dream continues. I hope for another 2003 with a better ending..... Great memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Me too..... and probably lots of others too but Sky and the TV money now dictate the FA Cup is not the glory it was. Personally mid table and a cup run - win would be brilliant and still think our League Cup folly at Sunderland was wrong. In fairness, when we played Sunderland the club still had delusions of a CL place. But now that's over, and we're in no-man's land in the middle of the table, it would be wrong to do so again IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Fans love the trips to Wembley and the glory of winning, I suspect most chairmen prefer the bigger cheque for finishing higher in the league. Guess who "controls" or if you prefer "makes suggestions" to the manager? Wonder what the players who are rested think, do they have any of the same Cup magic feelings that fans have ( had ) or are they like the chairmen and don't really want to be bothered too much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 This should be a voucher game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeySFC Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 For me, the FA Cup lost its way years ago, the PL is by far the most prestigious club competition and the one every club wants to be in. The FA Cup is a shadow of its former self, and I personally couldn't give two ****s if we beat Burnley or not later today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 For me, the FA Cup lost its way years ago, the PL is by far the most prestigious club competition and the one every club wants to be in. The FA Cup is a shadow of its former self, and I personally couldn't give two ****s if we beat Burnley or not later today. And if we get to Wembley would you also not give two ****s if we won or lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 For me, the FA Cup lost its way years ago, the PL is by far the most prestigious club competition and the one every club wants to be in. The FA Cup is a shadow of its former self, and I personally couldn't give two ****s if we beat Burnley or not later today. I wouldn't even call you a supporter with that attitude. Assume you were nowhere to be seen when were not in your precious Premier league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Depends on the present attitude to the FA Cup... Is the glass half-full?...or half empty? . The stadium may be, but as former winners' (albeit 38 years ago:rolleyes:) we surely feel a certain affinity to the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 For me, the FA Cup lost its way years ago, the PL is by far the most prestigious club competition and the one every club wants to be in. The FA Cup is a shadow of its former self, and I personally couldn't give two ****s if we beat Burnley or not later today. We are in the Premier League. You not noticed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Top of head idea.... The winners of the FA Cup get awarded an extra 5 points in the league...? Could make the difference between, say, finishing 4th or 5th. Just me thinking out loud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 (edited) those at the FA are equally to blame it started when they insisted on man united going to that world club competition in the late 90's/early 2000's (cant remember when exactly) and they were unable to defend it also, it has not been the last game of the season, the show piece event that marks the end for clubs in England. Instead, the race for 4th and 17th has taken over. Not to mention the ridiculous 1715 kick off time. oh and having the semi finals at wembley is a sham also, the very poor number of tickets given to each club that makes the final. in a stadium that holds 90k, each club will be lucky to get 25k each. which is pathetic. they need to give the FA cup back to the traditional fans. Granted not everyone is a fan these days but they way it is, more and more will turn off Edited 4 January, 2014 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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