benjii Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Adam only asked why he never got the penalty. Why would you need to abuse a ref asking him that What did Clatterclunge say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Are refs there to quip? Just asking. I think I'd prefer a ref to have a human side to him than just be a complete robot. Until we know exactly what was said its all a bit pointless judging one way or the other. I think refs should be able to defend themselves somewhat against a barrage of abuse that they often get, but there's clearly a line to be drawn. Quite where the exact comments are in relation to that line is unknown right now; but there definitely must be more than is being published now as that sort of comment is well within bounds IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Lets just say the comments used are a little more rash than is being documented Do you think it would be in Adam's interests for the club to go public with what was actually said and do you think that will happen sooner rather than later? And do you know why a watered down version of what was said is being quoted and circulated by journalists rather than the actual version? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Adam only asked why he never got the penalty. Why would you need to abuse a ref asking him that Seriously players can ask, it is when they go nuts. Ok, if he did see it then he decided it was not 'deliberate'. So on with the game. Once the ref has said no, that should be then end of it. He is not going to change his decision. This is the reason I think this grey area should be removed. Handball is handball end of, like in hockey, if it hits your foot it is a foul if you mean it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 “You’re very different now since you played for England. You never used to be like this.” Doesn't sound like something a grown man would say to another in a heated argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Not punishable by death, don't be stupid, but they're meant to be the ones setting the examples. Random real world example - police officers get abused by the members of the public, they can't just turn around and start being rude and obnoxious back to them can they?. A premiership footballer is stopped by the police, perhaps for speeding. The footballer says "what the **** have you stopped me for." I would imagine any self respecting copper would jump at the chance to reply "pipe down sonny, your England call up carries no weight here." Should the copper then expect to receive an official complaint for his quip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 This is not about two men having a disagreement and needing to man up. It is about a ref who has made three big calls in a year that cost us points, and in other situations could have relegated a club. No he doesn't have to justify his mistakes, though some refs have rung managers and apologised after such calls. But once he has made a mistake, he shouldn't try to start an argument with a player by leading his reply with insults, however mild they might seem in the cold light of day. I don't believe he was responding to an abusive approach, if he was he has a card he could use - and that's what a good ref would have done if they considered Lallana's approach as abuse. His job is to ref the game to an acceptable level. From the quality and inconsistency of his performances of late, he needs to concentrate 100% on reffing, as he is falling short, and is certainly not good enough to showboat with clever remarks as well. If nothing else, hopefully we will have got him off our games for a while. But it's swings and roundabouts...****** By my reckoning I believe we have got away with about two decisions this year, but had calls go against us in nine games. It's time the club stood up and asked how much longer we have to put up with it so I believe the complaint is justified, and I have no worries about opposition supporters moaning, they know what he is like, they have TV. As for Lineker, he has no clue what went on as he will have been fed a MotD version of events in the style of the one-sided humiliating hammering that we took at Old Trafford. I suspect it is a justified complaint and should have been investigated, not dismissed out of hand as that doesn't help anyone, Clattenberg included. Without proper investigation, the ref has not been cleared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 It was a blatant penalty. Clattenburg bottled it. Which shows he can't handle refereeing at this level. He deserves all the bad press and pressure the club are heaping on him, regardless of the outcome. I hope we don't see him for another 6 years, then get him at home to Everton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Are refs there to quip? Just asking. I have a joke around with players when I referee, but over the course of a game and a season, you know the best way to handle players. As long as I do not swear that is fine. I tell them to shut up, joke with them when they say things like 'you are getting everything wrong'. Then if that player makes a mistake I will let him know about his mistake. Most of the time you give a smile and get on with it and shake hands at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THEVMAN Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I leave that for others to decide, as they seem to be more knowable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Adam only asked why he never got the penalty. Why would you need to abuse a ref asking him that Are you trying to suggest Adam asked in a polite, calm manner? Come on, do me a favour. He was screaming at him like all footballers that think they have been robbed of a decision. Clattenberg responded with a put down and that should have been the end of it. If someone starts screaming at you, there is every likelihood that you'd tell them to pipe down and suggest they had become a big time Charlie. It's human nature to respond in that way not bite your tongue. The only thing that is wrong here is that Adam also got a yellow card, so clattenberg seemingly got his tuppenceworth in and then booked Adam as well. One or the other but not both seems fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Are you trying to suggest Adam asked in a polite, calm manner? Come on, do me a favour. He was screaming at him like all footballers that think they have been robbed of a decision. Clattenberg responded with a put down and that should have been the end of it. If someone starts screaming at you, there is every likelihood that you'd tell them to pipe down and suggest they had become a big time Charlie. It's human nature to respond in that way not bite your tongue. The only thing that is wrong here is that Adam also got a yellow card, so clattenberg seemingly got his tuppenceworth in and then booked Adam as well. One or the other but not both seems fair. I think its clear what he is saying. adam was not belittling him, shouting foul mouthed abuse at him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I think its clear what he is saying. adam was not belittling him, shouting foul mouthed abuse at him Do you believe that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Interesting that this complaint follows our game with Chelsea. Wonder if any of their lot had any influence on our decision to make the complaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I think its clear what he is saying. adam was not belittling him, shouting foul mouthed abuse at him Personally I agree with Chezzer, besides, unless Clattenburgs put down was vastly different to what has been reported then I still dont think that this level of response from the club is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 I have read all the posts and there are two distinct camps on this thread . I think there is something more serious involved hence the club are persuing the issue . The nav man is hinting at something more serious as has Weston . There has been no independent hearing of what ever happened no witnesses called etc etc just an old secretive boys club looking after their pals . It's like a policemen booking you for speeding and thet get there mates to hear your case . You don't stand a chance . Like MPs coppers referees close ranks and support each other . It will be interesting to see what happens to Rogers following his outburst now he has be charged re his comments by the same group who support ****tenberg . Oh it's the Liverpool manager . He will only get a slap on the wrists . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2533451/Refs-like-Webb-Clattenburg-need-support-deal-sensitive-players-divers-like-Oscar-Kevin-Kilbane.html Atkinson is a good referee, and there are plenty of them around who know how to handle players and don’t get enough credit for the way they manage games under very difficult circumstances. One such referee is Mark Clattenburg, who was cleared of allegations that he verbally abused Adam Lallana. The biggest disgrace in this sorry episode is that Southampton reported him in the first place, especially after the aggressive way the players remonstrated with him after he’d failed to spot a handball, which was hardly blatant. Knowing Mark, and after hearing what he is alleged to have said, that Lallana has changed since playing for England, I am sure this was just his idea of a bit of banter. When did players become so sensitive? Referees are accused of being aloof yet when Mark has tried to diffuse this situation with a light-hearted joke it has backfired. I’m just glad he was rightly cleared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2533451/Refs-like-Webb-Clattenburg-need-support-deal-sensitive-players-divers-like-Oscar-Kevin-Kilbane.html Haha the former Everton player dont think the handball was blatant......oh the surprise there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow_Saint Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Haha the former Everton player dont think the handball was blatant......oh the surprise there! I didnt either. Ball was fired at him from a few yards away All a big fuss about nothing, id prefer us just to get on with our business, not become a club that moans about decisions and wallows in self pity. These things even themselves out and you win some + lose some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I didnt either. Ball was fired at him from a few yards away All a big fuss about nothing, id prefer us just to get on with our business, not become a club that moans about decisions and wallows in self pity. These things even themselves out and you win some + lose some. Many non Saints fans will think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 ****tenberg is probably a mate of kilbane. Would surprise me . If it was wenger or moyes mixing about the decision the press would be having a field day against ****tenberg and co instead it is saints and we are getting all the grief . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow_Saint Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Many non Saints fans will think that. I think thats the point mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2533451/Refs-like-Webb-Clattenburg-need-support-deal-sensitive-players-divers-like-Oscar-Kevin-Kilbane.html Kilbane is spot on. It was a 50/50 handball, nothing horrendous and certainly not as bad as Ashley Young being blatantly taken out. We cant have it both ways. Swearing at the ref is technically a sending off offense and technically maybe Clattenburg shouldn't have made a snide comment. What would the complaining posters say if refs enforced the letter of the law and booked every Saints player that argued and then sent off every Saints player that swore at them? By about the third game we'd be asking why cant refs be more human and accept a bit of banter. IF what is reported is all that Clatenburg said, it's pretty pathetic to be reporting it. Had another club done so, say Liverpool and Stevie G, I don't think posters would be so supportive of that club. Some posters need to take off their red and white coloured glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Some posters need to take off their red and white coloured glasses. Since when was it mandatory for football fans to be rational and objective? Surely being fickle and biased are the qualifications required to support a team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I didnt either. Ball was fired at him from a few yards away All a big fuss about nothing, id prefer us just to get on with our business, not become a club that moans about decisions and wallows in self pity. These things even themselves out and you win some + lose some. Agreed. Kilbane's right, though I don't think it's a disgrace we reported it. It might yet come out that more was said anyway, we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Some posters need to take off their red and white coloured glasses. Thats the problem, most posters on here take off their red and white glasses, but still have a red and white mouse mat, SFC Bin, SFC duvet and SFC pyjamas. Find it impossible to argue against Saints whatever the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 This is all a storm in a teacup. It was a quip, agreed, a bit of banter. The way the club is reacting is not going to help us. I hope they calm down overnight and issue a statement indicating that on reflection they will let the matter drop. Move on .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran1uk Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Seen this.... http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/soccer-dirty-tackle/list-special-rules-referees-working-matches-involve-southampton-234548739--sow.html? Funny, even if a little disrespectful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
There when Franny scored Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/fa-league-cups/southampton-fume-as-mark-clattenburg-is-cleared-to-work-9038118.html Pleased the club are not letting this go. I appreciate that there is a lot to be said for conducting yourself with a quiet dignity, but Adam doesn't strike me as a player to make a fuss about nothing so we should back our club captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/southampton/10550189/Adam-Lallana-and-Mark-Clattenburg-prove-we-need-to-record-the-on-field-conversations.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Actually quite proud about this. Everyone else may fall into line but we won't..... if we feel it's right we will fight on! At the very least it will make it impossible for this man to ever referee us again. That will be a victory in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2533502/Mark-Clattenburg-drawn-high-life-headlines-Jonathan-McEvoy.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upton72 Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I'm a bit surprised that a lot of people believe the club should have let this incident go. The referee, by definition, is impartial, neutral and unbiased. If the referee fails those tests all credibility is lost. It's part of what is called "Respect". Referees have sanctions against those who scream abuse at them. Some take a stronger view than others on swearing, others live with it. In no case can a referee show bias. In my view, Clattenburg showed bias and should be disciplined. He lost credibility the moment he made that personal comment. Like other posters, I tend to think it is part of a wider club effort to get him off our games. I only wonder if it now marks Southampton, and Adam Lallana specifically, for the future. Do Clattenburg's mates in the profession close ranks and look for anything that can get back at us. I wouldn't be surprised. But, behind it all, I think the club is right to raise the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Oh FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 This is embarrassing frankly. It's our way of doing a Fergie and trying to put pressure on referees due to the poor decisions we've been getting. Got nothing to do wwith what has aactually been said, and makes us seem pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 (edited) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2532710/Mark-Clattenburg-investigated-Southampton-accuse-referee-abusing-Adam-Lallana.html I'd like to think he'll be "under investigation ", but it'll just be a lot more " hot air and headlines " and in the end the referees committee will close ranks; Clattenburg will be acquited, canonised and praised " whilst the club will be further castigated for refusing to accept the " ruling of the officials " ...or some such rot ! Instead; Clattenburg (and Howard Webb, most likely) ..will be put forward as " role -models " for the refereeing profession. Edited 4 January, 2014 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torsaint Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Will someone please put up the vid again which showed it was not 50/50, it was 100/0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I didnt either. Ball was fired at him from a few yards away . The ball was 'fired' past him and he stuck his hand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 The ball was 'fired' past him and he stuck his hand out. Not sure the handball or not is the issue. Not sure it matters who on this thread has all the knowledge of what was said either. It's certainly not about manning up. If it was just a bit of banter, I am sure Adam would not have made a big deal over it. The issue is about credibility. If the Ref, any ref, says something that could be interpreted in such a way, that players have grounds to suspect his attitude, opinion might be influencing his decision making, then there is a case to answer. Players and fans need to at least feel that all decisions are made in good faith. - even those made by crap refs who fail to spot something, or make a wrong decision based on their interpretation of the rules. If we can at least feel confident that it was a genuine mistake, we at least know the ref was just crap, not in any way biased. But if the ref is too pally with some players, over familiar or says things that are inappropriate, and by that I don't mean, normal human conversation, but makes comments to individuals that lead to suspicion of what else they might be thinking, then that is wrong.... Does not matter whether it's a personal 'insult' or not, refs should be above such things, if only to ensure they remain credible. Ignore what the papers say, as these are the same papers who were happy to have a go at him, over the 'monkey' comment... Yet seem now to have changed tack.... Ficle at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 The ball was 'fired' past him and he stuck his hand out. I would have given it, but that's just my opinion. His hands were not in a natural position and in rugby it would be called a charge-down. I can't believe that Clattenburg could have seen it, even though he says he did. Swearing is not of itself a red card. The term is 'offensive, abusive or insulting language' so 'what the f**k was that?' may be ok if not said within the hearing of little old ladies but 'you're a f**king cheat, ref' will get you sent off, as will anything of a racist nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I didnt either. Ball was fired at him from a few yards away All a big fuss about nothing, id prefer us just to get on with our business, not become a club that moans about decisions and wallows in self pity. These things even themselves out and you win some + lose some. But, Coleman does nevertheless move his arm to block the cross. When Adam has the ball at his feet Coleman's arm is by his side, when he chips it in the arm is in the air blocking....if that's not a blatant penalty then I clearly don't understand handball anymore...(it appears most refs don't either given the wide variety in penalties awarded for the offence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroppie Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Not sure the handball or not is the issue. Not sure it matters who on this thread has all the knowledge of what was said either. It's certainly not about manning up. If it was just a bit of banter, I am sure Adam would not have made a big deal over it. The issue is about credibility. If the Ref, any ref, says something that could be interpreted in such a way, that players have grounds to suspect his attitude, opinion might be influencing his decision making, then there is a case to answer. Players and fans need to at least feel that all decisions are made in good faith. - even those made by crap refs who fail to spot something, or make a wrong decision based on their interpretation of the rules. If we can at least feel confident that it was a genuine mistake, we at least know the ref was just crap, not in any way biased. But if the ref is too pally with some players, over familiar or says things that are inappropriate, and by that I don't mean, normal human conversation, but makes comments to individuals that lead to suspicion of what else they might be thinking, then that is wrong.... Does not matter whether it's a personal 'insult' or not, refs should be above such things, if only to ensure they remain credible. Ignore what the papers say, as these are the same papers who were happy to have a go at him, over the 'monkey' comment... Yet seem now to have changed tack.... Ficle at best. Good post and I agree that the underlying attitude of refs and how that varies from team to team and player to player is the deeper issue. I can't help getting the feeling that some refs see themselves as allies of the "big" teams. They will be careful to keep in with them as these are the teams with more influence in the media. The critical things are respect and trust for refs. There are plenty of recorded instances of big team players and managers showing a lack of respect for refs and getting away with it, and that leads to a lack of trust amongst other teams. I may be wrong but I think Saints have a bigger agenda here than the Lallana incident and are deliberately lifting the lid on a can of worms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 The ball was 'fired' past him and he stuck his hand out. He didnt, and as much as I was dissapointed we didnt draw it shouldnt have technically been a pen as for me it didnt look 'deliberate' which is supposed to be the marker for whether a ref gives a pen or not. Unless they change the law and say that any ball to hand is indeed an offence then Ill stand by that assumption. As always I try to be as impartial as I can in these situations and judge it by asking myself if Id feel agrieved if it were given against us and in reality I would have. Thats not really the point though, as much as I agree Clattenburg is a poor ref this witchhunt is rediculous, lets face it he got away with the racism card (if he actually said it that is, personally I cant see it) so he will breeze through our accusation of so called 'abuse'. Its all a bit over the top TBH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I think its highly ironic a football club lodges a complaint against a referee yet it does not bollo ck its own players then they abuse them, look at the number of words and the manner they are thrown by players to referees, Lallana and the club should grow a pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 I think its highly ironic a football club lodges a complaint against a referee yet it does not bollo ck its own players then they abuse them, look at the number of words and the manner they are thrown by players to referees, Lallana and the club should grow a pair. How do you know players are not bollo cked behind closed doors, or are you suggesting they do it publicly in a press conference...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Some other fans seems supportive and understand the core of the problem. http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/33437? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 How do you know players are not bollo cked behind closed doors, or are you suggesting they do it publicly in a press conference...? If thats the case (it's not) then they dont listen as they do it the following week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 4 January, 2014 Share Posted 4 January, 2014 Some other fans seems supportive and understand the core of the problem. http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/33437? I think its highly precious, we can abuse a ref and can him everything under the sun, he makes an observation and we complain, opportunistic mock shock indignation from fans who dislike as he is a **** ref (he is) but thats hardly the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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