CB Fry Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 "Net spend is only relevant if we are talking about balancing the books" - did they teach you that at the Stoke City school of finance. A mongboard classic for the ages. Tell me how selling Torres to buy Suarez and Carroll worked again? Where did I say that we would reach a point where we wouldn't have to strengthen at all? Does not buying Lovren or Wanyama mean that there are two less holes to plug for the foreseeable future mindful that there will always be churn and attrition in a squad? Buying those two have got us to solid mid table. If we want to get into top four we are going to significantly invest. Say spend 30 to 60 million a year like Liverpool have done despite having a better squad than we have had to start with. Or spend 100odd mil like Spurs have done this season despite having a better squad than we have had to start with. And yes, net spend is irrelevant here - as Liverpool's consistent spending show, regardless of who they may have sold. Happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 You really don't understand the rather basic difference between gross and net spend do you. My point is that we are playing catchup and overhauling a championship squad (noted at the outset), so we will be spending disproportionately more than others but that over time the amounts needed to compete will come down in line with others spending levels. And that those amounts aren't anywhere near the the £30-40m (net) you suggest we will need to maintain indefinitely. Forever and ever. And ever. How come Liverpool seem to spend between 30 and 60 million on new players every single season then? When do they settle down and reduce their spending. Must be soon as they, like, didn't have a Championship squad to start with. I understand the net spend thing well enough to know it is pretty irrelevant to this discussion, as its only purpose is there for you to make out we can make top four on the cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 I think net spend is kind of important. We could sell our entire first XI and spend £80m+ rebuilding it but that wouldn't really be 'spending' in the sense of improving the team, would it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 How come Liverpool seem to spend between 30 and 60 million on new players every single season then? When do they settle down and reduce their spending. Must be soon as they, like, didn't have a Championship squad to start with. I understand the net spend thing well enough to know it is pretty irrelevant to this discussion, as its only purpose is there for you to make out we can make top four on the cheap. Liverpool did quite good business last summer I think, I mean they finally rooked West Ham for 15 million for Carroll after all. At a net spend of about 22 million they significantly improved their group of players and they could have spent as much as that on just replacing Carragher who retired. I guess PL clubs need to spend money every summer or else they'd end up paying tax on profits because of all the TV money that they receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 dunno if liverpool are in any danger of making profits Windows. Do you know what Shurlock + CB Fry is even arguing about? I'm struggling to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 yikes, ambition and belief.....terrible things!!! I think you are confusing Ambition with being in LaLa Land Ambition for something which is achievable is laudable Being in the top ten at the end of the season would be a great achievement and I am really pleased how well we are going this season.but I feel that the Champions League talk is having an adverse effect on some of the fanbase with derision and name calling prevelant on this forum I have been following Saints and Football for over 50 years and there is no way SFC can get into the Champions League in the foreseeable future especially when three from Spurs Everton Liverpool and Man U probably wont get there this season we just cannot collect enough revenue to sustain a top six team. In the last ten years the Academy has not produced enough PL players to sustain life in the PL without buying in and if it was that easy other teams would be doing the same We will finish in one of our best positions ever in the PL something we could only dream about only three or four years ago unless we going down the pan completely like we did in 1974 when we were probably higher in the league than we are now and got relegated but I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 I think you are confusing Ambition with being in LaLa Land Ambition for something which is achievable is laudable Being in the top ten at the end of the season would be a great achievement and I am really pleased how well we are going this season.but I feel that the Champions League talk is having an adverse effect on some of the fanbase with derision and name calling prevelant on this forum I have been following Saints and Football for over 50 years and there is no way SFC can get into the Champions League in the foreseeable future especially when three from Spurs Everton Liverpool and Man U probably wont get there this season we just cannot collect enough revenue to sustain a top six team. In the last ten years the Academy has not produced enough PL players to sustain life in the PL without buying in and if it was that easy other teams would be doing the same We will finish in one of our best positions ever in the PL something we could only dream about only three or four years ago unless we going down the pan completely like we did in 1974 when we were probably higher in the league than we are now and got relegated but I doubt it. didn't we finish 8th in 2003 and get to the cup final though. doubt if we'll do any better than that this season despite massive investment, still massive investment now means absolutely sod all, it's what you spend it on that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 2 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 January, 2014 I think you are confusing Ambition with being in LaLa Land Ambition for something which is achievable is laudable Being in the top ten at the end of the season would be a great achievement and I am really pleased how well we are going this season.but I feel that the Champions League talk is having an adverse effect on some of the fanbase with derision and name calling prevelant on this forum I have been following Saints and Football for over 50 years and there is no way SFC can get into the Champions League in the foreseeable future especially when three from Spurs Everton Liverpool and Man U probably wont get there this season we just cannot collect enough revenue to sustain a top six team. In the last ten years the Academy has not produced enough PL players to sustain life in the PL without buying in and if it was that easy other teams would be doing the same We will finish in one of our best positions ever in the PL something we could only dream about only three or four years ago unless we going down the pan completely like we did in 1974 when we were probably higher in the league than we are now and got relegated but I doubt it. Very very good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 2 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 January, 2014 didn't we finish 8th in 2003 and get to the cup final though. doubt if we'll do any better than that this season despite massive investment, still massive investment now means absolutely sod all, it's what you spend it on that counts. So Chelsea and City's massive investment has not helped them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Very very good post. and thus all of John B's salient and well reasoned arguments were invalidated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 2 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 January, 2014 and thus John B's salient and well reasoned arguments were invalidated Pearsy I know to the corduroy and slippers wearer's on here you are some sort of rebel but please that simply was not funny, your posts lately have reminded me of a middle of the road BBC sitcom in the 80's ever decreasing circles or ITV's me and my girl. You need to up your game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 (edited) So Chelsea and City's massive investment has not helped them? but of course it has but when you don't have access to the very best players because of the status of your club then you risk spending a lot on not so much. I mean in theory we could have bought say Willan, would he want to sign for us...no he wouldn't so you're limited to good players who aren't sollicited by top clubs. It might be worth noting that Chelsea now have 7 of their players on loan at Vitesse Arnhem, that's 7 players (mostly youngsters I think) that are currently denied to their concurrents. Everton used to do it as well when they were a top club and funded by a Pools family (Vernons ? anyway one funded Everton, the other Liverpool) they just bought players to keep them off the market. Look at De Bruyne, paid a fortune but they don't play him going on loan to Europe, they bought Hazard's brother as well, no place for him in their side either so they loan him out to PSV or something. Chelsea's list is endless, Courtois one of the world's best young keepers and they're making sure that he doesn't play for anyone that can concurrence them.................. Edited 2 January, 2014 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Pearsy I know to the corduroy and slippers wearer's on here you are some sort of rebel but please that simply was not funny, your posts lately have reminded me of a middle of the road BBC sitcom in the 80's ever decreasing circles or ITV's me and my girl. You need to up your game. ok barry. I have added "all of" to the line which i think adds a certain something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 2 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 January, 2014 but of course it has but when you don't have access to the very best players because of the status of your club then you risk spending a lot on not so much. I mean in theory we could have bought say Willan, would he want to sign for us...no he wouldn't so you're limited to good players who aren't sollicited by top clubs. It might be worth noting that Chelsea now have 7 of their players on loan at Vitesse Arnhem, that's 7 players (mostly youngsters I think) that are currently denied to their concurrents. Everton used to do it as well when they were a top club and funded by a Pools family (Vernons ? anyway one funded Everton, the other Liverpool) they just bought players to keep them off the market. Is this a moral post or a footballing one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 I think you are confusing Ambition with being in LaLa Land Ambition for something which is achievable is laudable Being in the top ten at the end of the season would be a great achievement and I am really pleased how well we are going this season.but I feel that the Champions League talk is having an adverse effect on some of the fanbase with derision and name calling prevelant on this forum I have been following Saints and Football for over 50 years and there is no way SFC can get into the Champions League in the foreseeable future especially when three from Spurs Everton Liverpool and Man U probably wont get there this season we just cannot collect enough revenue to sustain a top six team. In the last ten years the Academy has not produced enough PL players to sustain life in the PL without buying in and if it was that easy other teams would be doing the same We will finish in one of our best positions ever in the PL something we could only dream about only three or four years ago unless we going down the pan completely like we did in 1974 when we were probably higher in the league than we are now and got relegated but I doubt it. Post of the week. I think '74 should be a timely reminder to the complacent clappers. IMO we will finish about 14th with a brief flirtation with relegation, which is not impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 2 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 2 January, 2014 ok barry. I have added "all of" to the line which i think adds a certain something. Yes thats purely belter Bearsy, you are now funny again after that, lets now crack on with football discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Is this a moral post or a footballing one? does it not explain the difficulties which lesser clubs face to sign the best players ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Very very good post. Did you read the 3rd paragraph? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Is this a moral post or a footballing one? There's no reason the two can't coexist. That's one of the best things about the current Southampton setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Post of the week. I think '74 should be a timely reminder to the complacent clappers. IMO we will finish about 14th with a brief flirtation with relegation, which is not impossible. Absolutely nuts, it seems most on here want to see us struggle so you can say told you so (not happened with this poster as yet though). Let's try and improve season on season and take it from there. So far we have improved on last season and a top 10 finish would be an improvement. Then we aim for top and and then Europe. The problem with most fans is that they want everything NOW! Great say we did land a top 6 place, would that be best for the squad we have, or would it be better to slowly strengthen the squad and bring through young players. Yes we have had a poor run of results, but think we will turn it around and be past the 40 point mark by March. All in all I think the season will be seen as a success by the majority of Saints fans, which I reminded you again our not the handful we have on here who seen determined to see us fail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 I think you are confusing Ambition with being in LaLa Land Ambition for something which is achievable is laudable Being in the top ten at the end of the season would be a great achievement and I am really pleased how well we are going this season.but I feel that the Champions League talk is having an adverse effect on some of the fanbase with derision and name calling prevelant on this forum I have been following Saints and Football for over 50 years and there is no way SFC can get into the Champions League in the foreseeable future especially when three from Spurs Everton Liverpool and Man U probably wont get there this season we just cannot collect enough revenue to sustain a top six team. In the last ten years the Academy has not produced enough PL players to sustain life in the PL without buying in and if it was that easy other teams would be doing the same We will finish in one of our best positions ever in the PL something we could only dream about only three or four years ago unless we going down the pan completely like we did in 1974 when we were probably higher in the league than we are now and got relegated but I doubt it. Agreed, apart from the academy which I think we could get enough players.... If only we could produce a keeper and some centre backs. Anyone else notice we produce really good attacking players even full backs, but not many solid centre backs, midfielders (ball winners) or goalkeeper. All a little bit fast but no old fashion get stuck in players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 (edited) Agreed, apart from the academy which I think we could get enough players.... If only we could produce a keeper and some centre backs. Anyone else notice we produce really good attacking players even full backs, but not many solid centre backs, midfielders (ball winners) or goalkeeper. All a little bit fast but no old fashion get stuck in players. It's no coincidence, it's just that one of the toughest things about coming into first team football is getting to grips with the physicality, time pressure and positioning. That's naturally easier in wide positions where you can afford more mistakes. You see many more young full backs and wingers being 'given a go' than other players, including strikers. EDIT: Just realised you're talking about our academy over the last few decades rather than years. It is strange we haven't churned out a good centre back after all this time. Edited 2 January, 2014 by DuncanRG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Who? Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 It's no coincidence, it's just that one of the toughest things about coming into first team football is getting to grips with the physicality, time pressure and positioning. That's naturally easier in wide positions where you can afford more mistakes. You see many more young full backs and wingers being 'given a go' than other players, including strikers. EDIT: Just realised you're talking about our academy over the last few decades rather than years. It is strange we haven't churned out a good centre back after all this time. I am searching deep in my memories, but cannot remember a Saints centre back that we have produced going on to a top flight career. Neither a keeper or a ball winning midfielder. Strange, but something surely to be addressed to get this champions league academy team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Chris Baird has enjoyed a good Premier League career, though he wouldn't have made it in a European team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 2 January, 2014 Share Posted 2 January, 2014 Absolutely nuts, it seems most on here want to see us struggle so you can say told you so (not happened with this poster as yet though). Let's try and improve season on season and take it from there. So far we have improved on last season and a top 10 finish would be an improvement. Then we aim for top and and then Europe. The problem with most fans is that they want everything NOW! Great say we did land a top 6 place, would that be best for the squad we have, or would it be better to slowly strengthen the squad and bring through young players. Yes we have had a poor run of results, but think we will turn it around and be past the 40 point mark by March. All in all I think the season will be seen as a success by the majority of Saints fans, which I reminded you again our not the handful we have on here who seen determined to see us fail! So what is wrong with 14th ? What position did we finish last season ? 14th. In my books that is consolidation and consistency. Nope, I'd be happy with that. I think some people have got unrealistic expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 3 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 3 January, 2014 So what is wrong with 14th ? What position did we finish last season ? 14th. In my books that is consolidation and consistency. Nope, I'd be happy with that. I think some people have got unrealistic expectations. Cortese? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Cortese? Yes Barry, how may I help you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 but of course it has but when you don't have access to the very best players because of the status of your club then you risk spending a lot on not so much. I mean in theory we could have bought say Willan, would he want to sign for us...no he wouldn't so you're limited to good players who aren't sollicited by top clubs. It might be worth noting that Chelsea now have 7 of their players on loan at Vitesse Arnhem, that's 7 players (mostly youngsters I think) that are currently denied to their concurrents. Everton used to do it as well when they were a top club and funded by a Pools family (Vernons ? anyway one funded Everton, the other Liverpool) they just bought players to keep them off the market. Look at De Bruyne, paid a fortune but they don't play him going on loan to Europe, they bought Hazard's brother as well, no place for him in their side either so they loan him out to PSV or something. Chelsea's list is endless, Courtois one of the world's best young keepers and they're making sure that he doesn't play for anyone that can concurrence them.................. Sorry to be picky, but I am struggling to understand these phrases: "...currently denied to their concurrents." "...anyone that can concurrence them" Please explain Does anyone concur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrensup Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 Sorry to be picky, but I am struggling to understand these phrases: "...currently denied to their concurrents." "...anyone that can concurrence them" Please explain Does anyone concur? it pretty much means running along with. So WC is saying other teams that are running along with them. IE in the same league. It really does annoy me. All it is, is big clubs(rich) buy all the talent to spite the other clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 it pretty much means running along with. So WC is saying other teams that are running along with them. IE in the same league. It really does annoy me. All it is, is big clubs(rich) buy all the talent to spite the other clubs. I was being mischievous. I know what he was trying to say - despite the complete misuse of words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 3 January, 2014 Share Posted 3 January, 2014 He will not get 8th, in quality and squads terms we are closest to Newcastle and Everton and still off the mark from them, we have weak links right through our squad and our attacking options have been very exposed this season. If you want to talk about 'exposed' areas of the team perhaps you should start with the defensive side! Even Lovren's game has dropped a peg or two lately and our options there are very limited ... Someone needs to take responsibility for exposing our team to Fox and Jos and the clear lack of quality cover defensively. Having said that Osvaldo is looking to be quite an odd signing and you would have to wonder at the money paid for him - not a very convincing signing so far....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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