Romania and Bulgaria immigration restrictions to lifted

[pap]

Always a hot-topic on SaintsWeb, and in the wider world. Tomorrow marks seven years since the accession of Romania and Bulgaria into the European Union. After seven years, barring exceptional labour market conditions (a lever some 80 Conservatives wanted Cameron to pull last week), an EU citizen can live or work wherever he or she chooses. This means that in the coming weeks and months, we can expect many economic migrants looking to benefit from the huge disparities in our economy.

 

I don't think this is an issue that splits left or right anymore. Speaking as partial second generation immigration stock and someone who traditionally leans left, I have some concerns about the breadth of this political union. Romanians and Bulgarians will come here because they can earn six times what they'd earn back home. Forget the notion of national states for a moment and lets just look at the EU as a de facto country. How many other nations have regional variations where one can do the same job in one area and earn six times more in another? If, in some bizarro version of the UK, it was possible to get 6x more in Skegness than anywhere else, Skeggy would get one hell of a population bump. That's really what's going on here. We're trying to treat a series of very diverse economies as if they all belong to the same country.

 

The Daily Mail, predictably, is running a story today indicating that all flights and buses from Romania and Bulgaria are booked up until the 9th Jan at least.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2531440/Sold-Flights-buses-Romanians-Bulgarians-head-UK.html

 

Nowt against Romanians or Bulgarians, but this may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, both in the UK's ability to cope and the general attitudes of the public. I suppose the only question is whether the EU is the sort of subject SaintsWeb likes to discuss

[pap]

Yo mods, can you change the title to "to be lifted", ta

[Batman]

just remember, hardly any will come here as the whole of europe is open to them

 

 

guess we will see in 5 years (or so)

[pap]

just remember, hardly any will come here as the whole of europe is open to them

 

guess we will see in 5 years (or so)

 

I think a big problem is bang for buck, Jamie. Where else are they going to get 6x the cash? Not many places. In fact, the Mail article suggests that those who have already moved and presently residing in Spain may move to the UK.

[Batman]

I think a big problem is bang for buck, Jamie. Where else are they going to get 6x the cash? Not many places. In fact, the Mail article suggests that those who have already moved and presently residing in Spain may move to the UK.

 

it obvious loads will come here.

personally, I am dead against it. need to get the current house in order first

[Sheaf Saint]

just remember, hardly any will come here as the whole of europe is open to them

 

 

guess we will see in 5 years (or so)

 

Well, this is the key point isn't it. There are many who are trying to make out like every single Romanian and Bulgarian citizen is going to be queueing up to get into the UK, conveniently forgetting that there are numerous other countries where they will also want to settle (maybe ones with a nicer climate than our own, for instance).

[Batman]

Well, this is the key point isn't it. There are many who are trying to make out like every single Romanian and Bulgarian citizen is going to be queueing up to get into the UK, conveniently forgetting that there are numerous other countries where they will also want to settle (maybe ones with a nicer climate than our own, for instance).

 

that is true, but today, right now, with almost none of the predicted influx, public services cant cope

the government is throwing ridiculous money at the front line of the NHS just to meet demand today.

[Smirking_Saint]

I think it will be difficult to talk about this subject openly without someone jumping on some sort of completly over the top prejudice tirade, however I think that its a subject that will effect us all.

 

Whether you like it or not there is an undercurrent of discontent in many of the major cities harboured by the working class of injustices brought about by immigration. This wont go away, and in fact is likely only to get worse by further migration hindering job prospects and reducing the wages for certain jobs.

 

Add to this the reports of high crime rates. Personally I think there gets to a point of enough is enough, I am pro immigration in certain quarters, in fact I think Australia has it bang on, allow those in that fall into certain criteria which are either genuinely fleeing oppression or that can actually add skills in areas that we are short. If you do not meet those criteria then simply do not allow a working visa as for me a country should always look after its own citizens first.

[Sour Mash]

just remember, hardly any will come here as the whole of europe is open to them

 

 

guess we will see in 5 years (or so)

I remember when Poland etc were brought in and we were told they'd be 100k max or something coming to live here! UKIP should do brilliantly in next year's European Elections.

[Sheaf Saint]

that is true, but today, right now, with almost none of the predicted influx, public services cant cope

the government is throwing ridiculous money at the front line of the NHS just to meet demand today.

 

Well yes. But then yesterday we had the headline about the NHS introducing charges for immigrants (which still isn't definite I acknowledge). If that extra income is spent on more doctors/nurses then there's no real issue, but then with this current Tory government in charge there's every possibility that extra income will be funnelled straight to the accounts of medical services companies owned by Cameron's mates.

 

It's all a big mess really.

[Batman]

I remember when Poland etc were brought in and we were told they'd be 100k max or something coming to live here! UKIP should do brilliantly in next year's European Elections.

 

Decisions should be made (like this) that benefit the existing population (where ever they came from)

what possible huge benefits are there to allowing romas and bulgarians unrestricted access to the UK (and all it offers)

 

there just are not any at all.

 

the sooner the Germans get fed up with it the better (and it is happening)

[Barry Sanchez]

You can not blame people coming here, you can blame the liberal elite who will live away from this in select communities but expect us to put up with it as they get cheap labour and the erosion of workers rights.

[Barry Sanchez]

I remember when Poland etc were brought in and we were told they'd be 100k max or something coming to live here! UKIP should do brilliantly in next year's European Elections.

 

UKIP will do brilliantly at next years elections, you can blame Miliband, Clegg, Cameron and all the other sops.

[Sheaf Saint]

Decisions should be made (like this) that benefit the existing population (where ever they came from)

what possible huge benefits are there to allowing romas and bulgarians unrestricted access to the UK (and all it offers)

 

there just are not any at all.

 

the sooner the Germans get fed up with it the better (and it is happening)

 

Given Germany's track record when it comes to losing patience with migrant ethnic communities, I'm not sure that is something we should be wishing for.

[View From The Top]

Personally I think the majority who will leave will go to Germany or Italy, where they have traditional links.

 

Very different demographic to Poland/Baltic States.

 

However, even as a lefty, I say enough is enough for the moment but I prefer to stop all immigration from non EU countries in the 1st instance. Easier to do.

[pap]

Well yes. But then yesterday we had the headline about the NHS introducing charges for immigrants (which still isn't definite I acknowledge). If that extra income is spent on more doctors/nurses then there's no real issue, but then with this current Tory government in charge there's every possibility that extra income will be funnelled straight to the accounts of medical services companies owned by Cameron's mates.

 

It's all a big mess really.

 

Call me a cynic, but I'd say that there are other motives at play here than merely political ones.

 

If they manage to implement a system which allows foreigners to pay for the NHS, the same system could be used to charge UK citizens at a later point.

[aintforever]

It is madness. Wages wise it is just going to mean a quicker race to the bottom.

 

Nothing will be done as long as it's just the unskilled or low skilled jobs they are taking up and we can moan about the lazy british workers not wanting the dirty jobs. It's just a matter of time before the more skilled jobs will be filled with people from these countries willing to do it for a fraction of the cost.

[Batman]

Well yes. But then yesterday we had the headline about the NHS introducing charges for immigrants (which still isn't definite I acknowledge). If that extra income is spent on more doctors/nurses then there's no real issue, but then with this current Tory government in charge there's every possibility that extra income will be funnelled straight to the accounts of medical services companies owned by Cameron's mates.

 

It's all a big mess really.

that is a token gesture. how will they get this money from bulgarians in 6 months time?

 

the NHS is at breaking point now. today. how on earth will we expect it to cope in 3 years time? and the then government will get slated for it

the money being thrown at front line services to meet demand now is incredible

 

my missus works in critical care. Cardiac, neurology and general intensive care as well as A&E (or ED as it is called now)

just to keep the numbers to safe levels, her and her opposite numbers regularly get paid £50, £60 per hour. That is just to meet demand NOW

[Barry Sanchez]

Personally I think the majority who will leave will go to Germany or Italy, where they have traditional links.

 

Very different demographic to Poland/Baltic States.

 

However, even as a lefty, I say enough is enough for the moment but I prefer to stop all immigration from non EU countries in the 1st instance. Easier to do.

 

As a socialist I agree, Pap will use the Nationalist, racist slant though as it suits his liberal right on agenda.

[Wes Tender]

I'm retirement age next year and am considering Romania or Bulgaria among destinations where my pension will go the farthest Property prices and cost of living there must make them good bets until EU subsidies raise them to levels more akin to other member states.

[Turkish]

I'm looking forward the inevitable 'we're a nation of immigrants' 'they're lovely people and they all work hard' 'and there are no British people that commit crimes?' from the usual suspects, most of which live in quiet, middle class towns where the only time they see a foreign person is when they go out for a take away. In fact, come to mention it, I'm one of them now, so what are you all complaining about, we're a nation of immigrants, they all work hard, I think its great to have such a diverse culture in Britain, can't wait to welcome them to the country, if I ever see one that is.

Edited 31 December, 2013 by Turkish

[Batman]

I am all for immigration within the commonwealth (not all)

canada, australia, New zealand, south africa, India

 

we have long, long historical, cultural and social ties with these countries, many of which we share the same head of state

we have far more in common with a kiwi than we do with a bulgarian.

[Barry Sanchez]

I am all for immigration within the commonwealth (not all)

canada, australia, New zealand, south africa, India

 

we have long, long historical, cultural and social ties with these countries, many of which we share the same head of state

we have far more in common with a kiwi than we do with a bulgarian.

 

 

Do you think an Australian or Kiwi in thier 1000's would move and live here? Possibly to come to work but not so much to live, we all go the other way as in irony they dont put up with this ****.

[Batman]

Do you think an Australian or Kiwi in thier 1000's would move and live here? Possibly to come to work but not so much to live, we all go the other way as in irony they dont put up with this ****.

 

no I dont think they would flood here. but the option should be there and for us.

immigration should not be about who floods into what country. but a choice to people who benefit each other

[Batman]

I'm looking forward the inevitable 'we're a nation of immigrants' 'they're lovely people and they all work hard' 'and there are no British people that commit crimes?' from the usual suspects, most of which live in quiet, middle class towns where the only time they see a foreign person is when they go out for a take away. In fact, come to mention it, I'm one of them now, so what are you all complaining about, we're a nation of immigrants, they all work hard, I think its great to have such a diverse culture in Britain, can't wait to welcome them to the country, if I ever see one that is.

 

agreed

you will get plenty of 17 year old tarquins on question time, clapping like deranged seals at polly toingby saying how wonderful eastern europeans are and the great benefit they will have on this country from next year

[hypochondriac]

that is true, but today, right now, with almost none of the predicted influx, public services cant cope

the government is throwing ridiculous money at the front line of the NHS just to meet demand today.

 

Yep and the problem is that once it's happened it can't be reversed. It's absolutely ridiculous and pap is completely right on this one.

[Barry Sanchez]

no I dont think they would flood here. but the option should be there and for us.

immigration should not be about who floods into what country. but a choice to people who benefit each other

 

What could we offer Australia and New Zealand? The only thing and that happens now is an advancement in their career or most careers anyway.

[Barry Sanchez]

Yep and the problem is that once it's happened it can't be reversed. It's absolutely ridiculous and pap is completely right on this one.

 

All Pap has done like most of his supposed intelligent posts is to copy and paste something, pull the pin and walk away, he will come back in at a point where his higher than high opinion on World affairs is at its most needed (his opinion again).

[Griffo]

It's disturbing the difference in views on immigration between those that live in places where it doesn't really affect them compared to those that have to live with it and its affects.

[Barry Sanchez]

It's disturbing the difference in views on immigration between those that live in places where it doesn't really affect them compared to those that have to live with it and its affects.

 

I have always written this on here and have been called horrible things by certain posters for it, go to Oldham, Burnley and Rochdale, see how it affects all with our wishy washy liberal barrel of ****e approach, because of this liberal wishy washy right on do gooder sandal wearing bellend crap the racists have been allowed to flourish.

[Griffo]

I have always written this on here and have been called horrible things by certain posters for it, go to Oldham, Burnley and Rochdale, see how it affects all with our wishy washy liberal barrel of ****e approach, because of this liberal wishy washy right on do gooder sandal wearing bellend crap the racists have been allowed to flourish.

 

Living where I do, a lot of the time you can't walk down the high street in my nearest town without feeling like you're in a completely different country and feel in the minority. A lot of the ethnic minorities are a lot more racist towards us than we are to them and that's from experience.

[pap]

I think it will be difficult to talk about this subject openly without someone jumping on some sort of completly over the top prejudice tirade, however I think that its a subject that will effect us all.

 

Whether you like it or not there is an undercurrent of discontent in many of the major cities harboured by the working class of injustices brought about by immigration. This wont go away, and in fact is likely only to get worse by further migration hindering job prospects and reducing the wages for certain jobs.

 

Add to this the reports of high crime rates. Personally I think there gets to a point of enough is enough, I am pro immigration in certain quarters, in fact I think Australia has it bang on, allow those in that fall into certain criteria which are either genuinely fleeing oppression or that can actually add skills in areas that we are short. If you do not meet those criteria then simply do not allow a working visa as for me a country should always look after its own citizens first.

 

Australia has control over its own sovereignty. There's the difference. Outside of EU migrants, we operate a points-based system too. No such capacity for selection under the Single Market rules.

[Turkish]

Living where I do, a lot of the time you can't walk down the high street in my nearest town without feeling like you're in a completely different country and feel in the minority. A lot of the ethnic minorities are a lot more racist towards us than we are to them and that's from experience.

 

Do they call you a honkey and tell you can't rap?

[pap]

Living where I do, a lot of the time you can't walk down the high street in my nearest town without feeling like you're in a completely different country and feel in the minority. A lot of the ethnic minorities are a lot more racist towards us than we are to them and that's from experience.

 

It sounds like you've just experienced what I call the Brixton factor; a realisation of what its like to be in a minority, experienced by any white person walking down Brixton High Street. Given the way you felt, doesn't it inspire some kind of empathy with those who are genuinely in a minority? Did for me.

[Griffo]

Do they call you a honkey and tell you can't rap?

 

Been spat at a couple of times before and get called honkey a fair bit. White lads on their own are the target for being mugged usually, they never do it to their own. I've been practicing my rapping though, I speak like I'm Jamaican now even though I've never been there let alone lived there like most of the black and asian people that live here, and I've started dealing class C drugs so I'm hoping I'll be able to fit in soon.

[Barry Sanchez]

It sounds like you've just experienced what I call the Brixton factor; a realisation of what its like to be in a minority, experienced by any white person walking down Brixton High Street. Given the way you felt, doesn't it inspire some kind of empathy with those who are genuinely in a minority? Did for me.

 

What a a crock of liberal ****,so two wrongs make a right? You should already regardless of colour have empathy for others, a liberal racist, not new at all.

[Turkish]

It sounds like you've just experienced what I call the Brixton factor; a realisation of what its like to be in a minority, experienced by any white person walking down Brixton High Street. Given the way you felt, doesn't it inspire some kind of empathy with those who are genuinely in a minority? Did for me.

 

Living where I live I occasionally come into contact with Eastern European people. There is a charming chap who goes to my gym, I'm not sure how as a builder earning £7 an hour he can afford the membership but nonetheless he is welcome. I often say hello to him, he is friendly and polite and always asks how I am. When I took my son swimming a few weeks back he even held the door open for me showing the Eastern European folk have exemplary manners to go with their work ethic. I believe one of the cleaners is Eastern European too, she is diligent hard working and carries out her duties with the minimum of fuss.

 

We also have several Asian folk who have successfully set up and run businesses and we enjoy dining there occasionally. This proves many are also intelligent and astute businessmen. Society can only be enhanced by more of these folk and I for one would welcome more like them.

 

In my town I have nothing but positive experiences with immigrants, they are lovely, friendly people who work hard and I fail to see how people who lucky enough to live in close proximity to many, many more cannot see how it enriches or culture.

Edited 31 December, 2013 by Turkish

[Sour Mash]

It sounds like you've just experienced what I call the Brixton factor; a realisation of what its like to be in a minority, experienced by any white person walking down Brixton High Street. Given the way you felt, doesn't it inspire some kind of empathy with those who are genuinely in a minority? Did for me.

If I moved to a foreign country, I would expect to be in a minority. Living in my own country, I think it's quite reasonable not to expect to feel like a minority/outsider.

[Barry Sanchez]

If I moved to a foreign country, I would expect to be in a minority. Living in my own country, I think it's quite reasonable not to expect to feel like a minority/outsider.

 

Exactly, Pap would treat you as an invader but for other people he would move a resident out of their house to make way for the new arrival. Nothing worse than a liberal apologist.

[Whitey Grandad]

Living where I live I occasionally come into contact with Eastern European people. There is a charming chap who goes to my gym, I'm not sure how as a builder earning £7 an hour he can afford the membership but nonetheless he is welcome. I often say hello to him, he is friendly and polite and always asks how I am. When I took my son swimming a few weeks back he even held the door open for me showing the Eastern European folk have exemplary manners to go with their work ethic. I believe one of the cleaners is Eastern European too, she is diligent hard working and carries out her duties with the minimum of fuss.

 

We also have several Asian folk who have successfully set up and run businesses and we enjoy dining there occasionally. This proves many are also intelligent and astute businessmen. Society can only be enhanced by more of these folk and I for one would welcome more like them.

 

In my town I have nothing but positive experiences with immigrants, they are lovely, friendly people who work hard and I fail to see how people who lucky enough to live in close proximity to many, many more cannot see how it enriches or culture.

 

There's nothing wrong with the people, it's just that the country is already full and bursting at the seams.

[farawaysaint]

Decisions should be made (like this) that benefit the existing population (where ever they came from)

what possible huge benefits are there to allowing romas and bulgarians unrestricted access to the UK (and all it offers)

 

there just are not any at all.

 

the sooner the Germans get fed up with it the better (and it is happening)

 

Immigration reform is widely regarded as having a positive effect on economies, the only reason most countries restrict it is pandering to voters who fear the effects on them personally. I don't blame workers for fearing for their jobs but immigrants will often work cheaper and more productively which is beneficial to the country as a whole.

 

http://www.cato.org/publications/trade-policy-analysis/restriction-or-legalization-measuring-economic-benefits-immigration-reform

 

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

[Barry Sanchez]

There's nothing wrong with the people, it's just that the country is already full and bursting at the seams.

 

Exactly.

[pap]

Living where I live I occasionally come into contact with Eastern European people. There is a charming chap who goes to my gym, I'm not sure how as a builder he can afford the membership but nonetheless he is welcome. I often say hello to him, he is friendly and polite and always asks how I am. When I took my son swimming a few weeks back he even held the door open for me showing the Eastern European folk have exemplary manners to go with their work ethic. I believe one of the cleaners is Eastern European too, she is diligent hard working and carries out her duties with the minimum of fuss.

 

We also have several Asian folk who have successfully set up and run businesses on the are and we enjoy dining there occasionally. Society can only be enhanced by more of these folk and I for one would welcome more like them.

 

My my town I have nothing but positive experiences with immigrants, they are lovely, friendly people who work hard and I fail to see how people who lucky enough to live in close proximity to many, many more cannot see how it enriches or culture.

 

We need more towns like yours, Turkish

 

Flower Estates was a pretty good place integration-wise, but my experience of moving North was a bit of a culture shock. First place I lived was Everton, which was pretty much all white people. Last place I lived was Kensington, which is as mixed an area as exists in the city. Both were alright, although ms pap took the hump when she learned that none of the Polish shops had English speakers in them.

 

I've had mixed experiences with Eastern Europeans, who've generally been fine in the workplace and a pain in the arse in any domestic context. A few years ago, just as I was about to depart to Liverpool from outside my mum's gaff, a carload of Polish nippers banged into the back of my motor and a large street brawl ensued. Generally though, there's normally one or two boys in each community that you can speak to if you have a problem. Certainly was the case over in Northern Ireland.

 

Immigration in this country has been a mess. Factors like racially aggravated abuse and white flight helped create the voluntarily segregated communities we have today. One of the best things about growing up on the Flower Estates is that it was a decent mix, which turns out to be good preparation for not being racist. Most of it is born of ignorance, and if people spend the majority of their time in racial silos, ignorance will be in abundance.

 

The thing that gets me is that we've done this before. We know all of the problems that come with introducing new cultures into an established host culture, so I'm amazed that we've signed up to a treaty that takes such important planning provisions out of our hands.

Edited 31 December, 2013 by pap

[pap]

If I moved to a foreign country, I would expect to be in a minority. Living in my own country, I think it's quite reasonable not to expect to feel like a minority/outsider.

 

That's a fair enough sentiment, and I've often said "when in Rome".

 

Still, a bit of empathy doesn't hurt.

[Barry Sanchez]

Pap aka

 

is ignoring me, sulking I suppose ha ha.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

There's nothing wrong with the people, it's just that the country is already full and bursting at the seams.

It isn't though.

[Sour Mash]

Immigration reform is widely regarded as having a positive effect on economies, the only reason most countries restrict it is pandering to voters who fear the effects on them personally. I don't blame workers for fearing for their jobs but immigrants will often work cheaper and more productively which is beneficial to the country as a whole.

 

http://www.cato.org/publications/trade-policy-analysis/restriction-or-legalization-measuring-economic-benefits-immigration-reform

 

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

Maybe I've read these wrong, but does the 2nd link not refer to all immigration? There is not much point classing a single multi-millionaire footballer's fiscal contribution to a country in the same figures as a father of 4 working as a mini cab driver for example.

[Sour Mash]

It isn't though.

It could well be argued that the South East of England is for example.

[Turkish]

There's nothing wrong with the people, it's just that the country is already full and bursting at the seams.

 

We're a nation of immigrants! We should make all the fat English people move out of their houses and make them live in the top floors of tower blocks and break the lifts so they have to walk up the stairs, that help them shift some of the vile fat. We should make them pay all their wages into a huge central pot which we I've the immigrants benefits from until they find work , they would also get the houses of the lazy Brits. The fat peoples would live off rations delivered to them, this would create jobs manufacturing and distribution, maybe the Romanians could do those jobs? When the fatties have reached an acceptable weight they are rehoused by which time the immigrants will be working so can afford their own places. You see we can cure immigrant and create jobs to welcome the Romanians and Bulgarians with open arms. You just need to position it right.

[farawaysaint]

It could well be argued that the South East of England is for example.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/interactive/2011/jun/30/uk-population-mapped

 

Plenty of room, by contrast Bangladesh has a density of 1,142 people PER SQUARE KILOMETER about four times England's.

 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/bangladesh/population-density-people-per-sq-km-wb-data.html

Edited 31 December, 2013 by farawaysaint