Can you pork that somewhere else?

[pap]

According to the article, Marks & Sparks have allowed their Muslim staff the opportunity to refuse to sell alcohol or pork at their tills, meaning that shoppers might need to move to a different till to purchase the offending items.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2527820/Marks-Spencer-tells-Muslim-staff-CAN-refuse-serve-customers-buying-alcohol-pork.html

 

Have at it, right-wingers and Little Englanders. Peace and goodwill to all men, yeah?

[dubai_phil]

According to the article, Marks & Sparks have allowed their Muslim staff the opportunity to refuse to sell alcohol or pork at their tills, meaning that shoppers might need to move to a different till to purchase the offending items.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2527820/Marks-Spencer-tells-Muslim-staff-CAN-refuse-serve-customers-buying-alcohol-pork.html

 

Have at it, right-wingers and Little Englanders. Peace and goodwill to all men, yeah?

 

And here in Dubai, the Muslim cashiers in the Supermarket scan our pork products into the till along with anything else we buy.

After they have taken their kids to see Santa in his Grotto at Ski Dubai

 

To be fair however they do not work in the Booze Shops

[Smirking_Saint]

Surprised to see this in the mail....

 

I dont really know what to think about it really, on the one hand I can understand the move from a religious POV but in reality isnt their misgivings about consumption of said items ? If they are just selling them I cant see the issue with it.

[Whitey Grandad]

Seem fair enough to me as long as they tell you before you start queueing.

[Smirking_Saint]

Seem fair enough to me as long as they tell you before you start queueing.

 

Its likely to cause a few arguements Id imagine

[CB Saint]

What's next? Vegetarians refusing to scan meat or leather goods? You would be screwed if you came face to face with a vegan cashier in tescos.

[pap]

Surprised to see this in the mail....

 

I dont really know what to think about it really, on the one hand I can understand the move from a religious POV but in reality isnt their misgivings about consumption of said items ? If they are just selling them I cant see the issue with it.

 

Most people will get to know the score, but it's a weird one. There's objectionable material to be bought all over the supermarket. Someone might legitimately be against battery farming, for example. I'd have mentioned tobacco, but oddly, most people who work behind tobacco kiosks look like they're on 40 a day. I'm not sure that's a coincidence.

 

The other thing to note is that collectively, these workers are still being paid using the profits of the sale of such items.

 

As someone who is not particularly religious, the dogmatism always baffles me, but then I suppose it would.

[trousers]

The other thing to note is that collectively, these workers are still being paid using the profits of the sale of such items.

 

 

Indeed. If people are going to work according to their principles then surely that logically starts at not working for an organisation that sells items that go against your principles in the first place?

 

It's a bit like a socialist working for any company making excessive profits...

Edited 22 December, 2013 by trousers

[Wurzel]

Comment on twitter sums it up

Muslim shop owners across the nation currently face-palming in unison at the immense stupidity and ignorance displayed by @marksandspencer

[Trader]

Surely if you're a devout Muslim, you wouldn't be working for a Jewish company like M&S anyway.

[Manuel]

What about tins of Top Deck?

[Verbal]

Indeed. If people are going to work according to their principles then surely that logically that starts at not working for an organisation that sells items that go against your principles in the first place?

 

It's a bit like a socialist working for any company making excessive profits...

 

No it's not. You do realise that M&S has its origins as a Jewish-owned company, and Judaism has the same prohibitions on pork as Islam.

 

I doubt any more than a tiny handful of Muslim employees would have any sort of problem selling pork. And for those few who do - it's presumably dawned on the management at M&S that they do actually sell other things than pork.

 

Alcohol is another matter. It isn't prohibited in Islam - the only thing frowned upon is to be 'intoxicated'. Speaking as someone who's toured a brewery in Islamabad, and walked through an entire street in Karachi filled with shops selling an unbelievable variety of weed, I can tell you that squeamishness about alcohol and drugs has little to do with Muslim cultures in South Asia, where alcohol and an industrial consumption of marijuana are commonplace. Now if only M&S sold the latter, everyone would be happy.

[Gemmel]

No it's not. You do realise that M&S has its origins as a Jewish-owned company, and Judaism has the same prohibitions on pork as Islam.

 

I doubt any more than a tiny handful of Muslim employees would have any sort of problem selling pork. And for those few who do - it's presumably dawned on the management at M&S that they do actually sell other things than pork.

 

Alcohol is another matter. It isn't prohibited in Islam - the only thing frowned upon is to be 'intoxicated'. Speaking as someone who's toured a brewery in Islamabad, and walked through an entire street in Karachi filled with shops selling an unbelievable variety of weed, I can tell you that squeamishness about alcohol and drugs has little to do with Muslim cultures in South Asia, where alcohol and an industrial consumption of marijuana are commonplace. Now if only M&S sold the latter, everyone would be happy.

 

Sat here with a musllim friend who laughed his head off at your post and respectfully suggests you have no idea what you are talking about and is on hand to answer any questions you might have,

[Viking Warrior]

tell me what is facepalming.

[Viking Warrior]

I think the M&S story has got out of hand , Common sense needs to prevail.

 

this is an interesting article and nothing to do with the Dail Mail

 

Bengali restaurateurs – can selling alcohol be justified?

Posted by 5 Pillarz

As a British born Bangladeshi, writes Dilly Hussain, it has always bugged me how the Bengali community has casually accepted and even perceives as “permissible” the selling and profiting from alcohol in restaurants. I have close family and friends who own restaurants that sell alcohol, some of them have beards, “pray five times” and consider themselves as “practising”. But how can Muslim restaurateurs justify the selling and consumption of alcohol in their premises?

 

Britain’s love of all things “spicy” goes far as back to the Crusades, before Europeans even knew that India existed. By 1612, English merchants enjoyed their first meal in Surat, India. The “spice” of Indian cuisine came from black pepper, cardamom and cumin. It was the Portuguese in 1501 who first introduced “chilli powder” in Europe, which is the hallmark of Indian cuisine today.

 

When Bangladeshis came over to Britain as economic migrants after World War Two, they gradually took over a trade which hadn’t really established itself but definitely lifted off once they got their hands on it – curry houses. There are more than 10,500 Indian restaurants in Britain, over 90% are owned by Bengali Muslims and 95% of those restaurants are licensed to sell and consume alcohol in their premises.

 

Selling and consumption of alcohol

 

The scriptural evidences from the Qur’an and Sunnah are ample in regards to the prohibition of alcohol. All schools of thought have a consensus on this matter and no difference of opinion exists. However, I still feel obliged to quote just two of the most authentic (among many) references to the Islamic prohibition of alcohol:

 

“They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drinks and gambling. Say: In them is a great sin.” (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:219)

 

It was narrated by Anas ibn Malik (ra) that Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: “Cursed are ten people in connection with wine (all alcoholic drinks): the wine-presser, the one who has it pressed, the one who drinks it, the one who conveys it, the one to whom it is conveyed, the one who serves it, the one who sells it, the one who benefits from the price paid for it, the one who buys it, and the one for whom it is bought.” (Al-Tirmidhi no.2776)

 

As clearly stated in the hadith above, Islam does not only consider the consumer of alcohol as sinful, but the one who sells and makes profit from it also. A common justification that I’ve heard Bengali restaurant owners use is that its “permissible to sell it to non-Muslims” – does that mean Muslims can sell drugs as long as its to non-Muslims? When I asked these restaurateurs for evidences to prove their “manufactured” opinions, they looked at me with red faces and in utter confusion.

 

Let’s say for arguments sake that selling alcohol to non-Muslims was permissible, what about the thousands of pounds of profit they make from selling it? How come the same restaurateurs say that selling pork is haraam? There seemed to be a clear double-standard of “picking and choosing” of what’s halal and haraam in Islam.

 

Then there’s the issue of allowing customers to drink inside the premises, but I guess that’s hardly an “issue” if all the above are “permissible”. I’ve asked many Bengali restaurateurs if they’d allow someone to drink in their homes, they looked at me baffled that I even asked that. Then I asked – what is the difference between your home and your business? Are both not your properties? Again, the confused look usually followed.

 

Common justifications

 

I couldn’t get any “official comments” for this feature because everyone I interviewed made me promise not to mention their names, I will uphold that as a Muslim. However, I will provide the answers I got from restaurateurs about selling alcohol, making profits from it and allowing its consumption on their premises.

 

1. “I know its haraam, and I pray to Allah for forgiveness. I want to stop selling alcohol but I’m too sucked in. Insh’Allah I will pack it in soon.”

 

This is the most honest answer I got, but “I’m too sucked in” usually means that business is doing well!

 

2. “Allah (swt) and the Prophet Muhammad (saw) only referred to “wine” not any other forms of alcohol.”

 

So beer, whisky or any form of drugs is allowed because Allah only prohibited wine? An opinion absent of evidence.

 

3. “We can’t survive without selling alcohol. People will not come to our restaurant.”

 

Invest in another business which doesn’t involve alcohol, like grill houses and kebab shops.

 

4. “Insh’Allah I will go Hajj and ask Allah for forgiveness.”

 

How can you guarantee how long you’re going to live for? Funding a pilgrimage with haraam money is another discussion all together.

 

5. “If you don’t like this country go back to Bangladesh! Why do you dress and live like a westerner?”

 

This is the most defensive of all the answers usually said to me in anger.

 

I asked a national organization called “Guild of Bangladeshi Restaurateurs” which consists of nearly 3000 Bengali restaurant owners for a comment on selling alcohol, they chose not to.

 

Funding mosques

 

The most alarming element of this whole subject, is that many of these restaurateurs have a close involvement in mosque committees. In my own hometown of Bedford, the secretary of the main “Bengali mosque” owns a restaurant that sells alcohol. I know that every Bengali that reads this article, knows of a alcohol selling restaurateur involved in a mosque, either as a committee member, trustee, treasurer, secretary or chairman.

 

I know of gatherings that are held to discuss mosque issues in restaurants. The only reason I can see that our mosques allow such people to be a part of their committees is financial and political. The financial contributions many restaurateurs give to mosques is substantial, and many perceive this as a “expiation of their sins”.

 

The lucrative revenue of Indian cuisines also assist mosques when they want extensions to their buildings. With their close ties with politicians who dine at their restaurants they are also utilized to “sweeten” those who can “pull the strings.”

 

I will end on this note, if Muslims want to sell alcohol in their restaurants (or off licenses) then accept that its a bad deed. Don’t make excuses to justify something that has clearly been prohibited by Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw). The same goes to our rulers in the Muslim world who allow it under the justification of “tourism revenue” which will strengthens their economies.

 

Dilly Hussain interviewed over 30 Bengali restaurateurs and they all requested to remain anonymous

[Hatch]

if they refuse to sell it to you, just carry on and pack it and not pay for it.

 

Free food and booze.

[tony13579]

It is interesting an I respect the sales person. I am not religious however my morals would not allow me to take a job that ripped people off, sold them loans etc that were highly inflated, I would not want to sell cigarettes. you may draw the line at cleaning up poo, or spiders, fresh meat.

 

I think people have to be allowed some reasonable adjustment within their work environment.

[mightysaints]

This member of staff is unhappy to sell alcohol and yet perfectly content to derive a salary from a company whose income is derived (in part) from the sale of alcohol and pork products etc.

 

Doesn't this appear to be extraordinarily hypocritical? Also I have been to the middle East and staff at shops are happy to sell Alcohol so why the difference here. Yet again this will divide the population and give cause to both sides of the argument. The right will say here we go again pandering to minorities, the hard line Muslims will say look if we keep pushing we will get our way and turn Britain into a Muslim state. No one wins and this just causes more issues.

[Verbal]

Sat here with a musllim friend who laughed his head off at your post and respectfully suggests you have no idea what you are talking about and is on hand to answer any questions you might have,

 

That's what's known as denial. One of the most frequently used words in Urdu translates into English as "shame".

 

So for his embarrassment, here's the 'imaginary brewery in Islam':

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/9153934/Ale-under-the-veil-the-only-brewery-in-Pakistan.html

 

Here's where to buy hash in Karachi (particularly recommend Zamzama):

 

http://webehigh.org/karachi-pakistan/

 

And some edification on the subject here:

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-conservative-pakistan-everybody-must-get-stoned/2/

 

Hallucinogenics are widespread in the large population centres in Pakistan (basically the Indus river valley) because Sufism is so deeply ingrained. You can't really take part in Sufi rituals without being off your head.

 

And just to get your friend into a proper state, here's some info on a common sight on the streets of Karachi and Lahore - Hijras, or transexuals and transvestites. Hijras are also found quite frequently at weddings, and are considered by some to be good luck:

 

http://worldpress.org/Asia/845.cfm

 

Perhaps your friend can quote the relevant verses on the 'prohibition' of alcohol in the Koran - not some dodgy Hadith.

[pap]

Constraining the debate to what we were originally talking about, pig and alcohol, you've got what, one example from across the whole of the Islamic world of a brewery? The article even states that it is the only brewery in the entirety of Pakistan.

 

The rest of your post is arguing a case that no-one made, largely because Marks & Sparks don't sell hallucinogenics, weed or transsexuals.

 

I'll take Gemmel's mate's word over this poorly argued nonsense.

[Clapham Saint]

Constraining the debate to what we were originally talking about, pig and alcohol, you've got what, one example from across the whole of the Islamic world of a brewery? The article even states that it is the only brewery in the entirety of Pakistan.

 

The rest of your post is arguing a case that no-one made, largely because Marks & Sparks don't sell hallucinogenics, weed or transsexuals.

 

I'll take Gemmel's mate's word over this poorly argued nonsense.

 

Damn.

 

I'll have to ask Santa for something else now...

[hutch]

Apparently the banks will be following suit. They won't be serving anybody who is paying interest. Or receiving it.

[pap]

Damn.

 

I'll have to ask Santa for something else now...

 

Yeah, it's a real shame. You'd figure they'd hit the more convincing end of the market if they could be arsed, too

[holepuncture]

a quintessentially British middle class institution (yes founded by Jewish folk..), it will be interesting how this pans out for them post Xmas as they could well have just alienated and upset a portion of their customer base!

 

If the share price takes a hit as a result of this scandal, it will show that the middle classes have finally had enough of this nonsense, and we can all begin the long journey back to a common sense Britain.

 

This isnt a PR metldown, this is an M&S PR meltdown

 

if they refuse to sell it to you, just carry on and pack it and not pay for it.

 

Free food and booze.

 

Good idea!

[pap]

a quintessentially British middle class institution (yes founded by Jewish folk..), it will be interesting how this pans out for them post Xmas as they could well have just alienated and upset a portion of their customer base!

 

If the share price takes a hit as a result of this scandal, it will show that the middle classes have finally had enough of this nonsense, and we can all begin the long journey back to a common sense Britain.

 

This isnt a PR metldown, this is an M&S PR meltdown

 

Good idea!

 

In most of the articles I've read, the chain has been keen to promote its secular credentials despite its ownership.

[Whitey Grandad]

Yeah, it's a real shame. You'd figure they'd hit the more convincing end of the market if they could be arsed, too

 

In a comment about transsexuals, was that intentional?

[Viking Warrior]

Holepuncture

 

Quite clearly you only focus on the narrow aspects of this case.

 

There are many many shop and resturant owners who are Muslim and sell alcohol. This said of the equation is not mentioned. Is it okay for Muslim males to sell and drink alcohol and therefore the rule only applies to woman

 

According to the Quran it is only wine that is forbidden if the extract from above is correct

 

 

Allah (swt) and the Prophet Muhammad (saw) only referred to “wine” not any other forms of alcohol.”

 

So beer, whisky or any form of drugs is allowed because Allah only prohibited wine? An opinion absent of evidence.

 

 

What I think is potentially sad is that, 1. there could be specific check outs created for not Pork/ alcohol sales and then the other groups who will want the same for what ever foodstuffs

 

secondly there is a great danger that some idiots will avoid going to checkouts where they have someone who is wearing a hijab behind the till.

 

Pap , leave transexuals out of the equation if thats what your intimating

[pap]

And just to get your friend into a proper state, here's some info on a common sight on the streets of Karachi and Lahore - Hijras, or transexuals and transvestites. Hijras are also found quite frequently at weddings, and are considered by some to be good luck:

 

http://worldpress.org/Asia/845.cfm

 

Perhaps your friend can quote the relevant verses on the 'prohibition' of alcohol in the Koran - not some dodgy Hadith.

 

Pap , leave transexuals out of the equation if thats what your intimating

 

I'm simply commenting on the discussion as it evolves. Verbal whipped out the chicks with d!cks to prove that pork and alcohol are ok in Islamic countries. I didn't understand his reasoning either.

[tpbury]

Can you imagine someone slipping a ready meal chicken carbonara (with unannounced ham bits) through to a hibab women and then proudly announcing '1%'PORK! Or a christmas pudding - ha!ha! got you!! Brandy in there!!! Really it means the poor woman has to read, and understand codes, enumbers etc, every ingredient of every item she (or he) is scanning.

 

Really impractical.

Edited 23 December, 2013 by tpbury
sp

[Clapham Saint]

A natural progression?

 

http://newsthump.com/2013/12/23/supermarket-customer-refused-pasta-purchase-by-follower-of-flying-spaghetti-monster/

[tpbury]

A natural progression?

 

http://newsthump.com/2013/12/23/supermarket-customer-refused-pasta-purchase-by-follower-of-flying-spaghetti-monster/

 

Having read that, I wonder if we are in Weimar Germany right now ie anything goes, until good old Adolf gets a grip. (I am against Hitler with my soul, but, apart from getting the trains to run on time, I do believe he got rid of the Poets den Cafe des Westens)

[Verbal]

Constraining the debate to what we were originally talking about, pig and alcohol, you've got what, one example from across the whole of the Islamic world of a brewery? The article even states that it is the only brewery in the entirety of Pakistan.

 

The rest of your post is arguing a case that no-one made, largely because Marks & Sparks don't sell hallucinogenics, weed or transsexuals.

 

I'll take Gemmel's mate's word over this poorly argued nonsense.

 

I know it's a lot for you take in, and complexity isn't your strong suit. So let me confuse you still further.

 

By far the largest section of Muslims in the UK are of Pakistani origin. At least 75% of them are from, or have families from, a tiny rural area in Kashmir, around the Mangla Dam, near Mirpur. This small area is highly conservative, highly traditional. Sadly, it seems that most of our most problematic fundamentalists are drawn from this small group of extended families - including people like Anjem Choudhary and Mohamad Siddique Khan. Very, very few Muslims with connections with Mirpur are known for a 'liberal' interpretation of Islam. Practically none of them will have anything to do with Sufi traditions that are so widespread elsewhere in Pakistan. In fact I've heard many supposedly 'Westernised' Mirpuris - including some well known TV 'personalities' - decry the 'loose morals' of Pakistanis they encounter when they travel to Karachi or Lahore. The culture they are so appalled by includes drinkers, consumers of vast amounts of hash - and even some cross-dressers and sex-changers. If you knew anything about the events surrounding festivals like Basant in Lahore, you'd also know about some pretty 'out there' activities involving 'parties' which involved something quite a lot more eye-opening than kite-flying.

 

So the picture of Asian Muslims we have in this country is gleaned from this strangely unrepresentative set of conservative clans from Mirpur. Most Muslims I've met in Pakistan are well versed, so to speak, in the Koranic prohibition on intoxication. Most Muslims I know in Pakistan drink. There may be just one official brewery in Pakistan, but there are thousands of unofficial ones. Even - and especially - in the Taliban strongholds of the Tribal Areas, you'll find local hooch easily. My advice: avoid a drink colloquially known as Khyber Water. It's powerful stuff.

 

And your suggestion that the Muree Brewery is the only one in the Muslim world is a joke, right? You're surely not serious.

 

To link this back to the Muslim in M&S, he or she may or may not be from Mirpur, but statistically there's a good chance they are. They may or may not be 'liberal' in their interpretation of Islam, but I bet they're not. In forming our impression of what Muslims are like and how they think, we are, unfortunately, led down the garden path by a distinctly unrepresentative sample of Islamic adherents in this country. Most Muslims I know laugh at the idea of not 'handling' alcohol; they enjoy it too much. It's absurd to claim there's Koranic justification for not touching bottles of wine, and the only justification for such a stance can be found in the same dodgy Hadiths that are dragged out to condone all manner of oppressive behaviour.

[Bearsy]

Marks & Spencer said the advice had been given in error and was not consistent with its policy. "Where we have an employee whose religious beliefs restrict food or drink they can handle, we place them in a suitable role, such as in our clothing department or bakery.

 

It said this in the dumb article, hidden between all the outrage + exaggeration. I thought, you know, that sounds fair enough!

[pap]

I know it's a lot for you take in, and complexity isn't your strong suit. So let me confuse you still further.

 

By far the largest section of Muslims in the UK are of Pakistani origin. At least 75% of them are from, or have families from, a tiny rural area in Kashmir, around the Mangla Dam, near Mirpur. This small area is highly conservative, highly traditional. Sadly, it seems that most of our most problematic fundamentalists are drawn from this small group of extended families - including people like Anjem Choudhary and Mohamad Siddique Khan. Very, very few Muslims with connections with Mirpur are known for a 'liberal' interpretation of Islam. Practically none of them will have anything to do with Sufi traditions that are so widespread elsewhere in Pakistan. In fact I've heard many supposedly 'Westernised' Mirpuris - including some well known TV 'personalities' - decry the 'loose morals' of Pakistanis they encounter when they travel to Karachi or Lahore. The culture they are so appalled by includes drinkers, consumers of vast amounts of hash - and even some cross-dressers and sex-changers. If you knew anything about the events surrounding festivals like Basant in Lahore, you'd also know about some pretty 'out there' activities involving 'parties' which involved something quite a lot more eye-opening than kite-flying.

 

So the picture of Asian Muslims we have in this country is gleaned from this strangely unrepresentative set of conservative clans from Mirpur. Most Muslims I've met in Pakistan are well versed, so to speak, in the Koranic prohibition on intoxication. Most Muslims I know in Pakistan drink. There may be just one official brewery in Pakistan, but there are thousands of unofficial ones. Even - and especially - in the Taliban strongholds of the Tribal Areas, you'll find local hooch easily. My advice: avoid a drink colloquially known as Khyber Water. It's powerful stuff.

 

And your suggestion that the Muree Brewery is the only one in the Muslim world is a joke, right? You're surely not serious.

 

To link this back to the Muslim in M&S, he or she may or may not be from Mirpur, but statistically there's a good chance they are. They may or may not be 'liberal' in their interpretation of Islam, but I bet they're not. In forming our impression of what Muslims are like and how they think, we are, unfortunately, led down the garden path by a distinctly unrepresentative sample of Islamic adherents in this country. Most Muslims I know laugh at the idea of not 'handling' alcohol; they enjoy it too much. It's absurd to claim there's Koranic justification for not touching bottles of wine, and the only justification for such a stance can be found in the same dodgy Hadiths that are dragged out to condone all manner of oppressive behaviour.

 

Well done. You can spout paragraphs of irrelevant boll*cks about Pakistani drinkers, hash smokers and cross-dressers (again). Save it for a book; most of it is not germane to this discussion.

 

I never suggested that the brewery was the only one in the Islamic world, rather that it's the only one you were able to identify and (according to the Telegraph) the only one in Pakistan.

 

I understand complexity all too well, sir. I also know the difference between that and mere obsfucation, which is what you offer here. It's like "bloke down the pub" meets "where's wally" - a series of unsourced ramblings melded with a game where readers have to hunt for something*.

 

* Your point, whatever the f*ck that was

[KelvinsRightGlove]

It said this in the dumb article, hidden between all the outrage + exaggeration. I thought, you know, that sounds fair enough!

 

Dammit bear.

 

I attempted to post whilst on the train that a simple work around would be to place staff with such objections elsewhere (ie not on checkouts) so as to avoid this scenario!

 

I'm so bloody smart.

[Ohio Saint]

I would prefer to see religion completely taken out of any situation. If you follow any religion that happens to cause problems in everyday life, well, just find a way around it and consider it a test of your faith. Simple.

[Viking Warrior]

Bearsy . Bakiery will be out if they sell hot sausage rolls . Normally pork as it's a cheaper meat . Assuming sausage rolls actually contain meat

[Bearsy]

Hmm didn't think of that! I spose clothing is out too if you want to buy Muhammad t-shirt or Peppa Pig back-pack. Minefield!

[aintforever]

I'm confused as to why anyone would give a sh!te either way. If somone doesn't want to serve alcohol or bacon because of their beliefs that's entirely up to them, doesn't effect me in the slightest. Just go to a till with a less Muslim looking person.

 

Some people just need to chill the f*ck out and get laid or something.

[Barry Sanchez]

Can I refuse to sell Halal meat? The profits from alcohol in part pay their wages, small but they do.

[Saint in Paradise]

I would prefer to see religion completely taken out of any situation. If you follow any religion that happens to cause problems in everyday life, well, just find a way around it and consider it a test of your faith. Simple.

 

Agree with this and also what Verbal says is correct.

 

As it's Christmas I shall refrain from making any derogatory comments

about some posters but they did make me smile and shake my head at

their innocence and lack of real world knowledge.

[Barry Sanchez]

Hmm didn't think of that! I spose clothing is out too if you want to buy Muhammad t-shirt or Peppa Pig back-pack. Minefield!

 

What about alcohol in chocolates or cakes? Liberal elite divide again with their agenda.

[dubai_phil]

Agree with this and also what Verbal says is correct.

 

As it's Christmas I shall refrain from making any derogatory comments

about some posters but they did make me smile and shake my head at

their innocence and lack of real world knowledge.

 

The Numpties making the complaints (and the Employee) should come and work in the World of Islam and discover what it all means.

[pap]

Agree with this and also what Verbal says is correct.

 

If you're into dusky transvestites, Pakistani weddings are the place to be?

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Constraining the debate to what we were originally talking about, pig and alcohol, you've got what, one example from across the whole of the Islamic world of a brewery? The article even states that it is the only brewery in the entirety of Pakistan.

 

The rest of your post is arguing a case that no-one made, largely because Marks & Sparks don't sell hallucinogenics, weed or transsexuals.

 

I'll take Gemmel's mate's word over this poorly argued nonsense.

You should try Redhill

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

According to the article, Marks & Sparks have allowed their Muslim staff the opportunity to refuse to sell alcohol or pork at their tills, meaning that shoppers might need to move to a different till to purchase the offending items.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2527820/Marks-Spencer-tells-Muslim-staff-CAN-refuse-serve-customers-buying-alcohol-pork.html

 

Have at it, right-wingers and Little Englanders. Peace and goodwill to all men, yeah?

 

Oh Pap, I thought you were better than this. M&S policy, if you read the article, is that employees who have a problem handling alcohol can work in areas such as the bakery instead of working on the checkout. The instance in this particular shop was an error so no shoppers in future will need to go to a different checkout. Panic-ising over.

[Verbal]

Well done. You can spout paragraphs of irrelevant boll*cks about Pakistani drinkers, hash smokers and cross-dressers (again). Save it for a book; most of it is not germane to this discussion.

 

I never suggested that the brewery was the only one in the Islamic world, rather that it's the only one you were able to identify and (according to the Telegraph) the only one in Pakistan.

 

I understand complexity all too well, sir. I also know the difference between that and mere obsfucation, which is what you offer here. It's like "bloke down the pub" meets "where's wally" - a series of unsourced ramblings melded with a game where readers have to hunt for something*.

 

* Your point, whatever the f*ck that was

 

Spoken like a true Mirpuri. Weird, that. You have that fingers-in-your ear, la-la-la-la thing down pat. The Hijras are always the clincher.

 

Anyway, it’s been fun torturing you with stuff that is so clearly beyond your comprehension. But behind it all is this.

 

I loathe the fanaticism of small things, like humiliating a customer by feigning a religious stand against wine-bottle-carrying. I loathe it in the same I way I loathe the fanaticism of supposedly big things, like killing a young man by feigning a religious stand against a war of which the perpetrator has absolutely no conception. I loathe the fanaticism of conspiracy theorists who then seek to render these murderers innocent and the families of the murdered guilty. They are all on the same continuum, regardless of the scale of the offence. They are all fanatics, unable to deal with the world in a normal, human, pluralistic way, and instead reject it by getting on their narcissistic high horse.

 

So just imagine for a moment this alternate universe. Instead of the overwhelming number of Muslims in Britain being represented by largely conservative Mirpuris, wouldn’t it be wonderful if instead these were balanced by a number of Sufis from South Asia who decamped to British cities, bringing their Saintly relics, their refined and detailed understanding of different grades of Hash, their skills at making hooch, their addiction to a kind of ritualized ecstasy, men and women alike, that is truly a wonder to witness. And their music. Have you heard their music? Do you even know what it sounds like? This is religion like you’ve never experienced it – and it is an experience.

 

What, then, would be our picture of Islam? Not the sneering provocations of Anjem Chaudhary or the self-righteously odious 7/7 ‘leader’ Siddique Khan. Nor the niqab’d medical female student loudly refusing to touch the body of a male cavadar and demanding exemption (it happens depressingly frequently). Nor the dismissal of a customer merely for the ‘offence’ of presenting a bottle of wine for payment.

 

My guess is we’d all be just a little bit happier.

 

Wouldn’t you want that, rather than trying to get a pathetic rise out of people you consider reactionary, with threads like this yelling, in faux chav, “have at it”?

 

Happy Christmas.

[Barry Sanchez]

Pap does not celebrate Christmas, why would he? Its not for everyone so he gets offended that people are offended.

[pap]

Spoken like a true Mirpuri. Weird, that. You have that fingers-in-your ear, la-la-la-la thing down pat. The Hijras are always the clincher.

 

Anyway, it’s been fun torturing you with stuff that is so clearly beyond your comprehension. But behind it all is this.

 

I loathe the fanaticism of small things, like humiliating a customer by feigning a religious stand against wine-bottle-carrying. I loathe it in the same I way I loathe the fanaticism of supposedly big things, like killing a young man by feigning a religious stand against a war of which the perpetrator has absolutely no conception. I loathe the fanaticism of conspiracy theorists who then seek to render these murderers innocent and the families of the murdered guilty. They are all on the same continuum, regardless of the scale of the offence. They are all fanatics, unable to deal with the world in a normal, human, pluralistic way, and instead reject it by getting on their narcissistic high horse.

 

So just imagine for a moment this alternate universe. Instead of the overwhelming number of Muslims in Britain being represented by largely conservative Mirpuris, wouldn’t it be wonderful if instead these were balanced by a number of Sufis from South Asia who decamped to British cities, bringing their Saintly relics, their refined and detailed understanding of different grades of Hash, their skills at making hooch, their addiction to a kind of ritualized ecstasy, men and women alike, that is truly a wonder to witness. And their music. Have you heard their music? Do you even know what it sounds like? This is religion like you’ve never experienced it – and it is an experience.

 

What, then, would be our picture of Islam? Not the sneering provocations of Anjem Chaudhary or the self-righteously odious 7/7 ‘leader’ Siddique Khan. Nor the niqab’d medical female student loudly refusing to touch the body of a male cavadar and demanding exemption (it happens depressingly frequently). Nor the dismissal of a customer merely for the ‘offence’ of presenting a bottle of wine for payment.

 

My guess is we’d all be just a little bit happier.

 

Wouldn’t you want that, rather than trying to get a pathetic rise out of people you consider reactionary, with threads like this yelling, in faux chav, “have at it”?

 

Happy Christmas.

 

Torturing me? Please. If your posts are a form of torture, they'd be in the dull and numbing category, the sort of space shared with overlong headmaster speeches or a clueless colleague saying something, anything to add something to the proceedings during a conference call. I'm not here gagging under your trickling water-board of words here, sir.

 

For someone who says that others don't understand the complexity does, your third paragraph is a picture painted only in black and white colours, and again, no relevance to the debate.

 

I've got a better understanding of Muslims than most people on this forum. I observed haraam until the age of around twelve. I know Muslims who smoke weed and do pills (normal, not ritualised ecstasy ) and I even know a couple who will drink alcohol; but it is literally a couple. Haven't met one who will knowingly consume anything from a pig, and I've had my grandad chastise me for cooking chorizo in my old dear's house. My brother still observes haraam to this day.

 

Seems to me as if you've entered this thread just looking to be a contrarian, and have cherry-picked some extreme examples, such as the only brewery in Pakistan or transvestites at weddings in a baffling attempt to prove the exception as the rule. In 38 years of speaking with my (admittedly homophobic) Pakistani grandfather, I've never heard of transgendered people being used as living shamrocks at family weddings. I'll no doubt be presenting many of your claims to him to determine their veracity. FWIW, I'm sure there is a grain of truth in everything you've said; there usually is. It's just the way you apply such information that irks me. Your argument here is what, exactly? Because you can find one example of a brewery and Muslims get up to other questionable stuff, pork and alcohol are okay in the wider Islamic world? It is genuinely fragile.

 

Returning to the topic at hand, the M&S policies are being driven by employees, many of whom would prefer not to be involved in the sale of pig or alcohol. For me, that's all that matters. Are you suggesting that if a Muslim doesn't fancy selling a bit of streaky, his boss should say "shut up. The Sufis make hooch and ritualized [sic] ecstasy, y'know"? Feel free to bang on about the tribal practices of whichever bunch might happen to suit the latest extreme you're selling, but like everything else, it's irrelevant. It is the wish of British Muslim workers that are being honoured here. All the lucky transvestites at Pakistani weddings all over the world won't change that.

 

Finally, I started this thread because it was an interesting topic which I thought would generate debate. I find it amusing that you choose to see my tongue-in-cheek call-to-arms in the way you do. The intention was actually to avoid a lot of the reactionary nonsense by specifically calling for it, thus neutering most of the more offensive boll*cks that you normally see on these threads. You'll have to take my word for that, but given my self-nobbling reputation of honesty on here, I think that'll do.

 

Y'know what, it mostly worked. The only pathetic rise I got was from yourself, par for the course lately. I very much enjoyed your West London-oriented snipe at the rest of the country recently too. My advice to you? Pick your battles, sir. This is about the third or fourth thread you've waded into and made an utter mess of yourself.

[pap]

Pap does not celebrate Christmas, why would he? Its not for everyone so he gets offended that people are offended.

 

I am stoked for Christmas, for it is at this time of year we celebrate cyclical consumerism, and I get my PS4.