Sunderland v Chelsea attendance tonight

[Bearsy]

The word is in the tittle of the competition CHAMPIONS not runners up and also rans.

 

Nu-uh! Champions is just brand name. If it was that all of the entrants had to be Champions they would call it Champion's League.

 

In any case at end of tournament someone is crowned Champions of Europe. Not best runner up and also ran of Europe. Stop hating on Champions League! It's the best tournament eva!

[Rasiak-9-]

Christ. I felt a little bit of my soul die reading that.

 

Just as a counterpoint I would say it is more ambitious to want to see us win a cup this season or next season than mentally sacrifice them all for the wafer thin chance that in twenty years time we are a team that might finish fourth. Seriously, life's too short. Let's get to Wembley.

 

Your twenty year spreadsheet-strategy view on our football club seems utterly soulless. You can keep it.

 

And excellent playing, yet again, of the "cup-wins-equate-with-relegation" card. Look at Wigan! Look at Wigan! Ridiculous.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

 

I didn't equate winning a cup with relegation, I'm simply saying that winning a cup does not guarauntee you any form of either status or security in the Premiership and furthermore, doesn't really impress much of the footballing world nowadays. This is a result not a cause of the big clubs not taking the cup competitions seriously and given the nature of football nowadays, the regrettable and unfortunate, but nevertheless understandable focus of finishing in the top four.

 

Why do you support Southampton? To support the football club of your home town that represents the people of the city in a way that no other medium can, just like it has for over a century? Right? Good. Me too.

 

Why do Southampton FC compete? To be successful and achieve success in the eyes of others and we support them in their drive for success.

 

I am simply saying that the definition of 'success' in football has changed and I'm sorry to say that isn't something that the currently smaller clubs like us really have much control over.

[Sour Mash]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

 

I didn't equate winning a cup with relegation, I'm simply saying that winning a cup does not guarauntee you any form of either status or security in the Premiership and furthermore, doesn't really impress much of the footballing world nowadays. This is a result not a cause of the big clubs not taking the cup competitions seriously and given the nature of football nowadays, the regrettable and unfortunate, but nevertheless understandable focus of finishing in the top four.

 

Why do you support Southampton? To support the football club of your home town that represents the people of the city in a way that no other medium can, just like it has for over a century? Right? Good. Me too.

 

Why do Southampton FC compete? To be successful and achieve success in the eyes of others and we support them in their drive for success.

 

I am simply saying that the definition of 'success' in football has changed and I'm sorry to say that isn't something that the currently smaller clubs like us really have much control over.

Winning a major cup is a success. We should all want our club to try and do that, no?

[stevegrant]

Winners of the EL get a CL place.

This is already happening from next season.

 

No real merit in giving a Champions League place to the FA Cup winners, IMO - the CL should be a reward for performance over the whole season at the highest domestic level, not for putting together a run of 6 wins, potentially all against lower-league opposition.

[Turkish]

No-one cares about the LC til the semis. With Wembley in sight clubs and fans get serious. Similar in the JPT to be honest on a smaller level.

 

I'd love Saints to win it, cup wins are rare, look at Arsenal. I don't believe the relegation thing, it's very rare, and the downturn in form can't be proved to be related. Any relegated team will tend to have a dodgy end to the season won't they! Wigan were always hit and miss, so what isn't enough for a league survival might be enough in the cup.

 

The FA cup is still 10 times better than the League Cup though definitely. Perhaps it should get a CL place. Extreme, but it would sort out the motivation. I'd rather sort out the Europa League though. Top 2 in the CL, 3rd and both cup winners in the EL. Suddenly the stature of the EL is hugely increased. Winners of the EL get a CL place.

 

As for saints reserves at Sunderland, it wasn't an awful side, it could have done a much better job. We shouldn't be so arrogant as to assume the first team would have won it anyway.

 

I'll tell you what is arrogant Adrian. And that's a club with one major trophy to its name in 128 years considering one of the two major cup competitions beneath us.

[CB Fry]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

 

I didn't equate winning a cup with relegation, I'm simply saying that winning a cup does not guarauntee you any form of either status or security in the Premiership and furthermore, doesn't really impress much of the footballing world nowadays. This is a result not a cause of the big clubs not taking the cup competitions seriously and given the nature of football nowadays, the regrettable and unfortunate, but nevertheless understandable focus of finishing in the top four.

 

Why do you support Southampton? To support the football club of your home town that represents the people of the city in a way that no other medium can, just like it has for over a century? Right? Good. Me too.

 

Why do Southampton FC compete? To be successful and achieve success in the eyes of others and we support them in their drive for success.

 

I am simply saying that the definition of 'success' in football has changed and I'm sorry to say that isn't something that the currently smaller clubs like us really have much control over.

 

You saying "no one sees Wigan's cup victory as a triumph" is as much a strawman as anything anyone else has said, as is your suggestion that winning a trophy doesn't count as "achieving success". It's an effing scarecrow convention son.

 

Winning a trophy is achieving success and you suggesting that people who feel that way are building strawmen just shows how mental this argument is.

 

Southampton FC: one trophy in more than One hundred years. One f ucking trophy.

Edited 18 December, 2013 by CB Fry

[OldNick]

Hope you're not referring to me sunshine. Because you know full well I have never said we should play our strongest team in all cup games.

 

Keep bull sh itting, it's deliciously desperate.

as a matter of interest, when do you think we should play our strongest team? only games that we lose,games we are not expected to win, games we might win or we might lose?

[OldNick]

Southampton FC: one trophy in more than One hundred years. One f ucking trophy.

I tell you what, if winning trophies is what makes you want to support the club then you have picked the wrong team. I support Southampton because i am proud to be born there, it is the team i watched from a kid and dreamed of playing for.Winning cups would be a massive bonus,btu not the begin and end all. Playing in the top flight was never high on my agenda,until we lost our place. i have come to realise that unless you play in the top league you really are not on the radar. I enjoyed watching us in the L1 and CCC but would not want to be there for a long time. Wigan, Birmingham, pompey,Blackburn,Burnley,PNE ete etc have won as much if not more but they can have that at present. When we win a trophy like the LC i will happily buy you a drink and say, CB you were right isnt that great, but if we dont win a cup i still will support the club with pride of being a Sotonian

[Sour Mash]

I tell you what, if winning trophies is what makes you want to support the club then you have picked the wrong team. I support Southampton because i am proud to be born there, it is the team i watched from a kid and dreamed of playing for.Winning cups would be a massive bonus,btu not the begin and end all. Playing in the top flight was never high on my agenda,until we lost our place. i have come to realise that unless you play in the top league you really are not on the radar. I enjoyed watching us in the L1 and CCC but would not want to be there for a long time. Wigan, Birmingham, pompey,Blackburn,Burnley,PNE ete etc have won as much if not more but they can have that at present. When we win a trophy like the LC i will happily buy you a drink and say, CB you were right isnt that great, but if we dont win a cup i still will support the club with pride of being a Sotonian

So you support a club for "being on the radar"? You have picked the wrong team.

[CB Fry]

I tell you what, if winning trophies is what makes you want to support the club then you have picked the wrong team. I support Southampton because i am proud to be born there, it is the team i watched from a kid and dreamed of playing for.Winning cups would be a massive bonus,btu not the begin and end all. Playing in the top flight was never high on my agenda,until we lost our place. i have come to realise that unless you play in the top league you really are not on the radar. I enjoyed watching us in the L1 and CCC but would not want to be there for a long time. Wigan, Birmingham, pompey,Blackburn,Burnley,PNE ete etc have won as much if not more but they can have that at present. When we win a trophy like the LC i will happily buy you a drink and say, CB you were right isnt that great, but if we dont win a cup i still will support the club with pride of being a Sotonian

 

That's your comeback?

 

A Strawman the size of Bernard Manning. Not worth the effort.

[angelman]

I see that some are dismissing the importance of this competition, and I would agree. But I see it quite interesting the managers left in the competition. As of now there is ManC, Sunderland and tonight's games of Stoke, Man U, Spuds, WetSham.

 

Man C - have bigger fish to fry, but even then, the manager HAS to have success. Finishing 2nd is a failure. While this competition doesn't mean the most and won't save his job, it is still some silverware.

Sunderland - it might be important for Poyet to get some silverware. While survival is more important, this could be possibly a job saver not that I expect him to get the chop just yet.

Stoke - while I reckon they will beat Man U (maybe!!) Hughes has the least riding on this. Weather is pretty **** poor and they've gone off. Think Stoke will handle this better.

ManU - Moyes HAS to win silverware. This won't appease his detractors but it will help.

Spuds - if AVB was still there, it would mean more. But Sherwood has something to prove if he has any chance of getting the gig full time.

WetSham - Fat Sam has the executioner's axe hanging over him

[TheCholulaKid]

As an aside - some people saying the Premier League has ruined the Cup competitions have got it slightly wrong, IMO. The Cup competitions became immediately devalued the moment the FA let United skip the FA Cup and enter that competition (forget what it was called) in S.America. The one where entering United was seen as giving us a better chance of hosting the World Cup (a joke in itself) As soon as the FA Cup became devalued the LC was devalued even further by default. So, it's actually United's fault (as well as the spineless FA).

[Barry Sanchez]

I see the ones claiming this was a poor decision at he time are being proved correct, the Champions League hunters have now gone from saying we were in the hunt to saying we are playing good football which is a completely different slant.

Deflector shields fully up Scotty for if Sunderland win after a very difficult draw wont everyone think we should have given it the respect it deserved?

[Barry Sanchez]

I'll tell you what is arrogant Adrian. And that's a club with one major trophy to its name in 128 years considering one of the two major cup competitions beneath us.

 

Very true that, I love Southampton FC and its obvious we all love them and not for the fact of success, I can not think of a club less successful than us our size.

Edited 19 December, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Barry Sanchez]

as a matter of interest, when do you think we should play our strongest team? only games that we lose,games we are not expected to win, games we might win or we might lose?

 

The point is we rested players so therefore we did not play our strongest team , the result is moot, we did not try our best, if we were arrogant enough to believe the team that started was enough why didn't we play them against Sunderland in August?

 

The teams

League

31 Boruc

05 Lovren

06 Fonte

22 Chambers

23 Shaw

04 Schneiderlin

09 Rodriguez

12 Wanyama

16 Ward-Prowse

20 Lallana

07 Lambert

 

 

Cup

01 Davis

22 Chambers

13 Fox

38 Reed

03 Yoshida

26 Hooiveld

09 Rodriguez

18 Cork

19 Lee

10 Ramírez

08 Davis

 

And the thoughts of defeat by Perez

"We are a little bit disappointed to be out of the cup because it was an important competition for us to provide minutes for our squad and for our youngsters who, as you know, we like to use.

 

"We have a squad and we need to use all the players and give minutes in this type of game because the season is so long.

 

"In the next couple of months, we have a very tough period of games and we need everyone in the best form because sure, it will be important for the rest of the season."

 

Its quite obvious where we were looking, its was a wrong move.

[OldNick]

That's your comeback?

 

A Strawman the size of Bernard Manning. Not worth the effort.

lol from someone who is frightened to put out an statement just in case he/she might be found wrong.

Now answer the question or run away again , when is it alright to field a weakened team ?

[OldNick]

The point is we rested players so therefore we did not play our strongest team , the result is moot, we did not try our best, if we were arrogant enough to believe the team that started was enough why didn't we play them against Sunderland in August?

 

The teams

League

31 Boruc

05 Lovren

06 Fonte

22 Chambers

23 Shaw

04 Schneiderlin

09 Rodriguez

12 Wanyama

16 Ward-Prowse

20 Lallana

07 Lambert

 

 

Cup

01 Davis

22 Chambers

13 Fox

38 Reed

03 Yoshida

26 Hooiveld

09 Rodriguez

18 Cork

19 Lee

10 Ramírez

08 Davis

 

And the thoughts of defeat by Perez

"We are a little bit disappointed to be out of the cup because it was an important competition for us to provide minutes for our squad and for our youngsters who, as you know, we like to use.

 

"We have a squad and we need to use all the players and give minutes in this type of game because the season is so long.

 

"In the next couple of months, we have a very tough period of games and we need everyone in the best form because sure, it will be important for the rest of the season."

 

Its quite obvious where we were looking, its was a wrong move.

I don't see your point, I'm not the one crying about playing a weakened side. I also do not think we were likely to get into the top 4. Playing our weakened team is ok to some if they win, if they lose then it is the wrong decision. There are not reserve games like there used to be,that keep the squad players match fit, therefore cup competitions like the Sunderland game are the ideal times to play them.

We expect players to fill in when others are injured,how else can they get the game time?

If we had progressed further I expect the team fielded would have been stronger.

[sandwichsaint]

I’m sure once we’re established in the PL and we have survived the difficult second season syndrome we can expect to really kick on in the cups. I fully expect the club to issue a statement in the summer, via Crafty Nic’s PR pals, saying that we are targeting both of the cups next season. The club will have realised by then that we will ‘never’ get in the top 4 and that we are ‘too good’ to go down and we will use the lure of both the FA and Capital One cups to start the second phase of the five-year plans with ‘Operation Wembley’. We will continue to spend big, luring players to SMS with the promise that we will always play our strongest sides in the cups, indeed the very best signings will have clauses in their contracts guaranteeing that will play in the early rounds of the league cup 'irrespective of the opposition'. Players will all stand a really good chance of picking up an FA Cup or Capital one cup medal, and we will rotate our league side accordingly. ‘What the fans of this club really crave is a big day out at Wembley, no one remembers where you finish in the league’ said sources close to the club.

[OldNick]

I’m sure once we’re established in the PL and we have survived the difficult second season syndrome we can expect to really kick on in the cups. I fully expect the club to issue a statement in the summer, via Crafty Nic’s PR pals, saying that we are targeting both of the cups next season. The club will have realised by then that we will ‘never’ get in the top 4 and that we are ‘too good’ to go down and we will use the lure of both the FA and Capital One cups to start the second phase of the five-year plans with ‘Operation Wembley’. We will continue to spend big, luring players to SMS with the promise that we will always play our strongest sides in the cups, indeed the very best signings will have clauses in their contracts guaranteeing that will play in the early rounds of the league cup 'irrespective of the opposition'. Players will all stand a really good chance of picking up an FA Cup or Capital one cup medal, and we will rotate our league side accordingly. ‘What the fans of this club really crave is a big day out at Wembley, no one remembers where you finish in the league’ said sources close to the club.

lol, imagine the furore as we don't win many games in the league. I await the 'we haven't won for 5games'

[CB Fry]

lol from someone who is frightened to put out an statement just in case he/she might be found wrong.

Now answer the question or run away again , when is it alright to field a weakened team ?

 

Running away? From you and your own pi ss weak questioning based on something I have never said or even suggested? Right you are.

 

Loads of times I was happy to play weakened teams. All last seaso's cup games, all the cup games from the season before. I was happy with the Bristol City team and said so before kick off, it's just you making up that I wasn't.

 

I think we should have gone for it in the LC this season.Far from the"scared of having an opinion", I've been crystal clear on the opinion.

 

It's you that is petrified of that opinion so has to construct bullsh it strawmen to take me on.

 

Let's remember: you said I was naive to think we can do well in a cup and finish top ten. Naive.

 

Well, we'll see won't we.

[trousers]

[OldNick]

Running away? From you and your own pi ss weak questioning based on something I have never said or even suggested? Right you are.

 

Loads of times I was happy to play weakened teams. All last seaso's cup games, all the cup games from the season before. I was happy with the Bristol City team and said so before kick off, it's just you making up that I wasn't.

 

I think we should have gone for it in the LC this season.Far from the"scared of having an opinion", I've been crystal clear on the opinion.

 

It's you that is petrified of that opinion so has to construct bullsh it strawmen to take me on.

 

Let's remember: you said I was naive to think we can do well in a cup and finish top ten. Naive.

 

Well, we'll see won't we.

How can we see see that you are right as we have not played our full strength team in every league and cup game (including the FA cup), and we haven't done well in a cup. You stated that you think we will finish above 10th, wow nothing like taking a risk lol. I said we would finish 8th. or above.

Did we put out weakened teams last season in the cups? I cant recall how strong our side was against Chelsea in the cup, either way we lost.

[OldNick]

Lol, dont worry we are just a load of *****es and have to have the last word.

[CB Fry]

How can we see see that you are right as we have not played our full strength team in every league and cup game (including the FA cup), and we haven't done well in a cup. You stated that you think we will finish above 10th, wow nothing like taking a risk lol. I said we would finish 8th. or above.

Did we put out weakened teams last season in the cups? I cant recall how strong our side was against Chelsea in the cup, either way we lost.

 

What are you on about? I've never said anything about full strength teams.

 

You think it's naive to think we can do this season what Strachan did a decade ago with far less resources.

 

And interesting you sneer at 10th - yesterday you didn't support Saints for the glory. I love the way you cannot stick to one opinion even within 24 hours.

Edited 19 December, 2013 by CB Fry

[OldNick]

What are you on about? I've never said anything about full strength teams.

 

You think it's naive to think we can do this season what Strachan did a decade ago with far less resources.

 

And interesting you sneer at 10th - yesterday you didn't support Saints for the glory. I love the way you cannot stick to one opinion even within 24 hours.

Its not a sneer at 10th, Im delighted you actually put up something solid, there is the first time for everything. 10th is hardly going out on a limb. I dont count finishing 10th or 8th as glory but just an assessment where i think we will finish at the present time.

As for full strength teams,if you have not talked about playing full strength teams,why the hell have you been going on about fielding weakened teams!!!!

[SaintNeil90]

Jesus this forum is like a children's playground with all these slagging matches going on.

 

CB Fry... face the facts...

 

*Whether we like it or not, the cups are not as important to clubs anymore.

*Whether we like it or not, the league cup has become a second rate tournament. But it means youngsters can be blooded in a competitive competition.

*Whether your like it or not, given the choice and taking into consideration the way clubs now treat the cups, fans would rather pay to see a league game.

 

There is nothing you can do about it.

 

Cheer up, go enjoy yourself and merry christmas!

*

[SaintNeil90]

Jesus this forum is like a children's playground with all these slagging matches going on.

 

CB Fry... face the facts...

 

*Whether we like it or not, the cups are not as important to clubs anymore.

*Whether we like it or not, the league cup has become a second rate tournament. But it means youngsters can be blooded in a competitive competition.

*Whether your like it or not, given the choice and taking into consideration the way clubs now treat the cups, fans would rather pay to see a league game.

 

There is nothing you can do about it.

 

Cheer up, go enjoy yourself and merry christmas!

*

 

AND...

 

*Football is about money. You earn more through the league so manager/players are expected to prioritise the league. One position higher, is a big difference in prize money.

 

I'm not saying I agree with any of this but this is the reality.

[OldNick]

AND...

 

*Football is about money. You earn more through the league so manager/players are expected to prioritise the league. One position higher, is a big difference in prize money.

 

I'm not saying I agree with any of this but this is the reality.

oh dear you're in trouble ,wait for the barbed retort

[Lighthouse]

I don't see why we're wasting all this money on a squad of 25 players. Surely if we're going to play our strongest team in every game we only need 11?

[Turkish]

Jesus this forum is like a children's playground with all these slagging matches going on.

 

CB Fry... face the facts...

 

*Whether we like it or not, the cups are not as important to clubs anymore.

*Whether we like it or not, the league cup has become a second rate tournament. But it means youngsters can be blooded in a competitive competition.

*Whether your like it or not, given the choice and taking into consideration the way clubs now treat the cups, fans would rather pay to see a league game.

 

There is nothing you can do about it.

 

Cheer up, go enjoy yourself and merry christmas!

*

 

What is out best chance of winning something?

[stevegrant]

AND...

 

*Football is about money. You earn more through the league so manager/players are expected to prioritise the league. One position higher, is a big difference in prize money.

 

I'm not saying I agree with any of this but this is the reality.

One place higher in the Premier League = around £1.2m

 

45% of gate receipts from Wembley final (assuming average price of £50), as per the Competition Rules = around £2m

45% of gate receipts from home semi-final (assuming average price of £25), as per the Competition Rules = around £350k

45% of gate receipts from away semi-final (same assumption, will vary depending on opponent) = around £350k (more if it's a bigger ground)

 

The actual prize money for the League Cup is crap (£100k for winners, £50k for runners-up), especially in comparison to the FA Cup (£2m winners, £1m runners-up), but to say there's no financial incentive for clubs to go far in the competition is nonsense.

[shurlock]

Winning things is a means to an end - for me, doing well is being respected and seen as a force by others.

 

Winning a devalued cup may contribute to that; but it has far less impact than sustaining form across an entire season. Like it or not, the league is the truest benchmark of quality and all the benefits that come with it.

[Turkish]

Winning things is a means to an end - for me, doing well is being respected and seen as a force by others.

 

Winning a devalued cup may contribute to that; but it has far less impact than sustaining form across an entire season. Like it or not, the league is the truest benchmark of quality and all the benefits that come with it.

 

In 10 years time will people remember in 2013 Wigan won the FA cup and Swansea the league cup or that West ham finished 10th?

[SaintNeil90]

One place higher in the Premier League = around £1.2m

 

45% of gate receipts from Wembley final (assuming average price of £50), as per the Competition Rules = around £2m

45% of gate receipts from home semi-final (assuming average price of £25), as per the Competition Rules = around £350k

45% of gate receipts from away semi-final (same assumption, will vary depending on opponent) = around £350k (more if it's a bigger ground)

 

The actual prize money for the League Cup is crap (£100k for winners, £50k for runners-up), especially in comparison to the FA Cup (£2m winners, £1m runners-up), but to say there's no financial incentive for clubs to go far in the competition is nonsense.

 

In modern day football, that isn't much money though is it...

 

Win the FA Cup = 14/15th in the PL

Win the Carling Cup = About the same as finishing 17th

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2327063/Premier-League-prize-money-table-final-game-2013-season.html

 

Fulham's mediocre season ended with a comprehensive 3-0 victory over Swansea at the Liberty Stadium, propelling them up the table from 15th to 12th, and earning the west London club an additional £2.25million for their final position on merit, based on last season's figures.

 

The losers of the final day were Alan Pardew's Newcastle, who dropped £2.26m as they slid from 13th to 16th. The Toon's end-of-season payout was set to total at just over £6m, but now stands at £3.75m after their defeat by Arsenal.

 

Top 6 teams would rather finish in the top 4 than win FA Cup, because they want Champions League football.

Dave Whelan I'm sure would have traded Wigans FA cup win for staying the the PL, despite their European campaign.

 

Fans may prefer a trip to Wembley, but clubs prioritise the thing that earns them the most money, and that is the league.

 

 

This trend will continue until the cups are reformed. If winning the FA Cup got you Champions League football for example, more clubs would take it seriously.

Getting into the Europa League is not enough anymore, in fact many clubs would rather avoid the Europa League these days.

 

Unless the FA Cup winners get Champions League football or more prize money, then clubs will take it less and less seriously each season and we will get a few more Wigans winning it in the future.

Edited 19 December, 2013 by SaintNeil90

[SaintNeil90]

In 10 years time will people remember in 2013 Wigan won the FA cup and Swansea the league cup or that West ham finished 10th?

 

Tell that to the people who run/own football clubs!

[Lighthouse]

One place higher in the Premier League = around £1.2m

 

45% of gate receipts from Wembley final (assuming average price of £50), as per the Competition Rules = around £2m

45% of gate receipts from home semi-final (assuming average price of £25), as per the Competition Rules = around £350k

45% of gate receipts from away semi-final (same assumption, will vary depending on opponent) = around £350k (more if it's a bigger ground)

 

The actual prize money for the League Cup is crap (£100k for winners, £50k for runners-up), especially in comparison to the FA Cup (£2m winners, £1m runners-up), but to say there's no financial incentive for clubs to go far in the competition is nonsense.

 

So you're looking at about £3m extra for winning the LC, compared to reaching QF. It good but it's not massive, less than 3 league placing's in prize money.

 

Compare that to the league last season where Newcastle finished 16th. If they'd won 1 game that they lost (and with a slightly better GD) they'd have been 11th and been £6m better off. If we could have found a winner against Stoke on the last day we'd be £2.4m better off. With such large sums of money balanced on such fine margins in the Premier League, it's of little wonder teams rest their best players for cup competitions.

[suewhistle]

Trousers, I notice you're keeping out of the debate! It's like the old "how many angels can dance on the point of a needle?"..

 

Don't we fans normally argue these things retrospectively? We lost, so should have played a stronger team. We win - so what's the problem? We get injuries, we should have given so-and-so a rest. No injuries - see, nothing to worry about. Later in the season - "why isn't thingmegum match fit when he's bought in due to injuries to so-and-so?" "Why aren't are back-ups good enough?" Perhaps they like playing competitive games occasionally?

 

It's a complex issue and not the black and white, either/or binary some posters seem to make out. The team at Sunderland was perfectly capable of winning but didn't. Funnily enough the same has happened to our best-11 too, but in all cases wins are expected.

[stevegrant]

In modern day football, that isn't much money though is it...

It all adds up. An extra £2m is £40k a week the club can spend on wages to bring in (potentially) better players.

 

Clearly the league is going to be the priority for those who have most to gain from it - those with a realistic chance of getting in the top 4. We are not one of those teams, nor are we ever likely to be, regardless of what ambitions the club has.

 

For the rest, that means survival first and foremost - staying in the PL at the moment is worth around £45m in broadcasting and prize money MORE than the £20m a year parachute payments (i.e. roughly £65m total for finishing 17th) - and the only way to build success is to do well in the knockout competitions which are within reach. Win a cup (doesn't matter which one, they both provide extra revenue from extra games and a route into Europe) and all of a sudden the exposure the club gets is much greater, the club can then offer European football to prospective signings, there is prize money within the competition for wins and draws, extra gate revenue from the three home group games (and potentially more if we get through the group), etc.

 

It all adds up, and I'm sure anyone in charge of the finances at a football club would tell you, every bit of revenue is important.

 

Say, for example, we won the FA Cup. That would give us a total prize pool of nearly £3.4m (you get differing levels of prize money for each round win). If we were to get to the final, we would play in at least 6 games (not including any replays). In FA Cup games, the split of revenue is generally 45% per club (42.5% for replays), so a 20,000 crowd at £20 a ticket is £180k - not a great deal in the grand scheme of things, but you can assume the prices will increase as you get further into the competition. 25,000 at £25 a ticket is around £280k, 30,000 at £30 is £405k, and if we got a game at Old Trafford, for example, 75,000 at £49 a ticket is £1.65m. Once you get to the semi-finals, the gate receipts of the two games combined are split, with 58.5% of the total being divided equally between the four clubs (e.g. 80,000 at £50 a ticket for both games would give each club around £1.1m). No gate receipts are earned from the final.

 

That little lot - six games - would earn the club in the region of £7m, and that's not counting the intangibles like extra merchandising, more interest in home league games, etc. Not bad for a competition supposedly nobody cares about because there's no money to be made from it...

[OldNick]

It all adds up. An extra £2m is £40k a week the club can spend on wages to bring in (potentially) better players.

 

Clearly the league is going to be the priority for those who have most to gain from it - those with a realistic chance of getting in the top 4. We are not one of those teams, nor are we ever likely to be, regardless of what ambitions the club has.

 

For the rest, that means survival first and foremost - staying in the PL at the moment is worth around £45m in broadcasting and prize money MORE than the £20m a year parachute payments (i.e. roughly £65m total for finishing 17th) - and the only way to build success is to do well in the knockout competitions which are within reach. Win a cup (doesn't matter which one, they both provide extra revenue from extra games and a route into Europe) and all of a sudden the exposure the club gets is much greater, the club can then offer European football to prospective signings, there is prize money within the competition for wins and draws, extra gate revenue from the three home group games (and potentially more if we get through the group), etc.

 

It all adds up, and I'm sure anyone in charge of the finances at a football club would tell you, every bit of revenue is important.

 

Say, for example, we won the FA Cup. That would give us a total prize pool of nearly £3.4m (you get differing levels of prize money for each round win). If we were to get to the final, we would play in at least 6 games (not including any replays). In FA Cup games, the split of revenue is generally 45% per club (42.5% for replays), so a 20,000 crowd at £20 a ticket is £180k - not a great deal in the grand scheme of things, but you can assume the prices will increase as you get further into the competition. 25,000 at £25 a ticket is around £280k, 30,000 at £30 is £405k, and if we got a game at Old Trafford, for example, 75,000 at £49 a ticket is £1.65m. Once you get to the semi-finals, the gate receipts of the two games combined are split, with 58.5% of the total being divided equally between the four clubs (e.g. 80,000 at £50 a ticket for both games would give each club around £1.1m). No gate receipts are earned from the final.

 

That little lot - six games - would earn the club in the region of £7m, and that's not counting the intangibles like extra merchandising, more interest in home league games, etc. Not bad for a competition supposedly nobody cares about because there's no money to be made from it...

Steve, both sides of the debate have decent points. The crux from my point is that the way we play we will suffer burn out. To expect the prime players in the team play the league and cup games is not possible. Add to that the probability of us actually winning the FL cup was tough,especially with the clubs left in. If we were going to get to Wembley the finance argument stacks up as long as we didn't freefall due to it.

I want us to win cups but you have to walk before you can run, once we are well sorted then we will can be more targeted to cup runs.

[SaintNeil90]

It all adds up. An extra £2m is £40k a week the club can spend on wages to bring in (potentially) better players.

 

Clearly the league is going to be the priority for those who have most to gain from it - those with a realistic chance of getting in the top 4. We are not one of those teams, nor are we ever likely to be, regardless of what ambitions the club has.

 

For the rest, that means survival first and foremost - staying in the PL at the moment is worth around £45m in broadcasting and prize money MORE than the £20m a year parachute payments (i.e. roughly £65m total for finishing 17th) - and the only way to build success is to do well in the knockout competitions which are within reach. Win a cup (doesn't matter which one, they both provide extra revenue from extra games and a route into Europe) and all of a sudden the exposure the club gets is much greater, the club can then offer European football to prospective signings, there is prize money within the competition for wins and draws, extra gate revenue from the three home group games (and potentially more if we get through the group), etc.

 

It all adds up, and I'm sure anyone in charge of the finances at a football club would tell you, every bit of revenue is important.

 

Say, for example, we won the FA Cup. That would give us a total prize pool of nearly £3.4m (you get differing levels of prize money for each round win). If we were to get to the final, we would play in at least 6 games (not including any replays). In FA Cup games, the split of revenue is generally 45% per club (42.5% for replays), so a 20,000 crowd at £20 a ticket is £180k - not a great deal in the grand scheme of things, but you can assume the prices will increase as you get further into the competition. 25,000 at £25 a ticket is around £280k, 30,000 at £30 is £405k, and if we got a game at Old Trafford, for example, 75,000 at £49 a ticket is £1.65m. Once you get to the semi-finals, the gate receipts of the two games combined are split, with 58.5% of the total being divided equally between the four clubs (e.g. 80,000 at £50 a ticket for both games would give each club around £1.1m). No gate receipts are earned from the final.

 

That little lot - six games - would earn the club in the region of £7m, and that's not counting the intangibles like extra merchandising, more interest in home league games, etc. Not bad for a competition supposedly nobody cares about because there's no money to be made from it...

 

I don't disagree with you entirely Steve. I would love us to go on a Cup run but it seems that clubs see the cups as a risk these days in comparison to the league.

As OldNick says, the last game of the season could see you win or lose the equivalent money of a cup run and these days getting into the Europa League seems to stun clubs league campaigns.

You only have to look at Spurs and Swansea this season to see that.

[Barry Sanchez]

I don't disagree with you entirely Steve. I would love us to go on a Cup run but it seems that clubs see the cups as a risk these days in comparison to the league.

As OldNick says, the last game of the season could see you win or lose the equivalent money of a cup run and these days getting into the Europa League seems to stun clubs league campaigns.

You only have to look at Spurs and Swansea this season to see that.

 

 

And look at the memories of the Wigan and Swansea fans, we still go on about 76, we cant dismiss the Cup its all we have, the League is nothing to me as we are never going to win it(thats another debate on the equality of football) it the cups we have concentrate, Champions League football? You're having a laugh.

[Bearsy]

Don't think ponch has got a choice really. No-one ever got sacked for losing cup games.

[Sour Mash]

Winning things is a means to an end - for me, doing well is being respected and seen as a force by others.

 

Winning a devalued cup may contribute to that; but it has far less impact than sustaining form across an entire season. Like it or not, the league is the truest benchmark of quality and all the benefits that come with it.

Would you rather win the FA Cup this season, but then finish 11/12th for the next three seasons, or no FA Cup and finish 8th for the next three seasons?

[stevegrant]

Winning things is a means to an end - for me, doing well is being respected and seen as a force by others.

 

Winning a devalued cup may contribute to that; but it has far less impact than sustaining form across an entire season. Like it or not, the league is the truest benchmark of quality and all the benefits that come with it.

Where is the "benefit" in finishing 8th instead of 9th, other than an extra £1.2m which will get absorbed into the club's general running costs? Does anyone know or care who finished 8th three seasons ago? Does anyone even care who finished 8th last season?

 

I bet most people can remember who won the cups though...

[Dig Dig]

In 10 years time will people remember in 2013 Wigan won the FA cup and Swansea the league cup or that West ham finished 10th?

 

Probably neither pal, I can't remember who won either cup 2 years ago.

[Bearsy]

[sandwichsaint]

Don't think ponch has got a choice really. No-one ever got sacked for losing cup games.

 

Tim Sherwood might.

[Lighthouse]

Tim Sherwood might.

 

Dodd and Gorman got sacked after a cup defeat against Bristol Rovers a few years ago. Some fat Scouser scored the winner against us.

[CB Fry]

Its not a sneer at 10th, Im delighted you actually put up something solid, there is the first time for everything. 10th is hardly going out on a limb. I dont count finishing 10th or 8th as glory but just an assessment where i think we will finish at the present time.

As for full strength teams,if you have not talked about playing full strength teams,why the hell have you been going on about fielding weakened teams!!!!

 

This is dull, but just because you are embarrassingly wrong twice....

 

1) I've said where I think we'll finish this season plenty of times: 8-10th. Not changed since the summer. So you're wrong there.

 

2) I haven't been "going on about weakened teams" you have. I've only talked about one match. One. Just you extrapolating it all out to form pointless strawman arguments. Just you.

 

 

My final point is this. People are on here telling me to cheer up.

 

Well, I think Saints can finish top ten, probably eighth, and do well in a cup, even win one, this season. Definitely. Everything in place to do that in 2013-14. We don't get many seasons like that. Miserable people call that "naive", don't they Oldnick?

 

But I think, all in all that's a nice optimistic and realistic aspiration for the team I support. I think those quoting pounds and pence and those calling the League Cup "small fry" are the miserable gits, but hey ho. If you like totting up millions of pounds against league places, Fill yer boots. Have fun. Get your kids to join in too. More fun than going to Wembley I'm sure.

Edited 19 December, 2013 by CB Fry

[Miltonaggro]

In 10 years time will people remember in 2013 Wigan won the FA cup and Swansea the league cup or that West ham finished 10th?

 

This, for me, is the crux of the matter. I would settle for another 2003 season, with a reverse result in the final and aftermath...