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Sunderland v Chelsea attendance tonight


bender

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The League Cup has died a death by proxy, stemming mainly from the demise of the FA Cup because of the growing importance for the big clubs of qualifying for the Champions League.

 

As such with the FA Cup losing its importance, then of course the League Cup which has traditionally always been its little brother is considered borderline irrelevant. Wouldn't blame Sunderland fans not bothering to show up and wouldn't bother myself if it were Saints until probably the semi-finals. I'd happily swap the trophy to finish 6th in the Premiership.

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These days the PL is just based on money clubs want to get the highest position they can achieve to get as much money as possible.

 

A Club like Southamption is very unlikely to get to the Champions League but could win a Cup which as a fan I think would be great but not to the powers that matter at SFC where League Position is paramount.

 

I still think one of the best days of my life was when we won the Cup in 1976

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The League Cup has died a death by proxy, stemming mainly from the demise of the FA Cup because of the growing importance for the big clubs of qualifying for the Champions League.

 

As such with the FA Cup losing its importance, then of course the League Cup which has traditionally always been its little brother is considered borderline irrelevant. Wouldn't blame Sunderland fans not bothering to show up and wouldn't bother myself if it were Saints until probably the semi-finals. I'd happily swap the trophy to finish 6th in the Premiership.

 

Why ? 6th in the Prem wont even guarantee you European football. The LC win would. And surely the day out at Wembley is what its all about

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Please can we not rerun the "we could have (of?) won the cup if we'd put a decent team out against Sunderland" yet again.

 

No, that's obviously silly. Of course someone will resurrect it.

 

Too late. I see it's started.

 

 

 

But just remember, when Sunderland get relegated.........

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The League Cup has died a death by proxy, stemming mainly from the demise of the FA Cup because of the growing importance for the big clubs of qualifying for the Champions League.

 

As such with the FA Cup losing its importance, then of course the League Cup which has traditionally always been its little brother is considered borderline irrelevant. Wouldn't blame Sunderland fans not bothering to show up and wouldn't bother myself if it were Saints until probably the semi-finals. I'd happily swap the trophy to finish 6th in the Premiership.

 

Its more to do with the premier league and clubs desperation to stay in it. In the 80s Liverpool won it 4 years in a row but other winners included Oxford, Norwich, QPR and Luton. I remember quarter finals and semis at the Dell in the 80s with it being packed to the rafters and a great atmosphere. It was always the big clubs 3rd priority so the smaller first division clubs always had a chance of a decent run in it, not dissimilar to now expect that no one takes it seriously, the top clubs as they want the champions league and everyone else just wants to stay in the premier league so all top flight clubs field weekend sides until the latter rounds. Some people sneer at the league cup and would take 17th in the premier league over winning it, yet the fact of the matter is it is a major trophy and Oxford and Luton have won a major trophy more recently than we have. It's the premier league that has ruined the league cup and also the FA cup.

Edited by Turkish
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This single sentence demonstrates the worst thing about professional football these days.

 

I didn't make the rules buddy.

 

The reality of it is that in order to advance as a club with a view to challenging for titles you need to graduate through the ranks of survival, top half finish, top-6 and finally top-4 on a regular basis in order to attract the best players from around the world and become a force to be reckoned with in European and global football. A cup final or even a trophy does nothing whatsoever to contribute to those prospects and isn't even seen as particularly impressive anymore.

 

Birmingham and Wigan are languishing in the champo and look very much like they'll stay there for the forseeable future, with no-one seeing their cup wins as triumphant victories as much as they do damning indictments of how the cup competitions in England aren't taken seriously. Swansea have pressed on well enough but won't be able to grow as a club beyond their current mid-table status until they've survived long enough to expand their stadium, grow their fanbase and compete with the top 6.

 

I'd much rather finish in the top six with a view to maintaining that position for two or three seasons, enough to attract the best players, increase the fanbase and possibly expand the stadium before mounting an assault on the top four within the next couple of decades.

 

Ambitious? Yes. But why support a football team if you're not going to be?

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I didn't make the rules buddy.

 

The reality of it is that in order to advance as a club with a view to challenging for titles you need to graduate through the ranks of survival, top half finish, top-6 and finally top-4 on a regular basis in order to attract the best players from around the world and become a force to be reckoned with in European and global football. A cup final or even a trophy does nothing whatsoever to contribute to those prospects and isn't even seen as particularly impressive anymore.

 

Birmingham and Wigan are languishing in the champo and look very much like they'll stay there for the forseeable future, with no-one seeing their cup wins as triumphant victories as much as they do damning indictments of how the cup competitions in England aren't taken seriously. Swansea have pressed on well enough but won't be able to grow as a club beyond their current mid-table status until they've survived long enough to expand their stadium, grow their fanbase and compete with the top 6.

 

I'd much rather finish in the top six with a view to maintaining that position for two or three seasons, enough to attract the best players, increase the fanbase and possibly expand the stadium before mounting an assault on the top four within the next couple of decades.

 

Ambitious? Yes. But why support a football team if you're not going to be?

 

Christ. I felt a little bit of my soul die reading that.

 

Just as a counterpoint I would say it is more ambitious to want to see us win a cup this season or next season than mentally sacrifice them all for the wafer thin chance that in twenty years time we are a team that might finish fourth. Seriously, life's too short. Let's get to Wembley.

 

Your twenty year spreadsheet-strategy view on our football club seems utterly soulless. You can keep it.

 

And excellent playing, yet again, of the "cup-wins-equate-with-relegation" card. Look at Wigan! Look at Wigan! Ridiculous.

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I still find it depressing that 4th is such a wonderful achievement and ambitious aspiration for so many. It's fcking 4th! Not even bronze! They wanted a European league, but 'champions league' it isn't.

 

I don't think anyone is particularly excited about finishing 4th, it's the opportunities that will then create for the club. Being in the Champions League would attract better players, which would help us compete better in the Premier League. With a stronger squad we would also be able to put out a stronger team in the cups.

 

Our second choice team at the moment probably features Kelvin, Yoshi, Jos, Fox, Guly, Cork, Gaston and Lambert. They were probably in our first choice 11 last seasons, so it's hardly giving up on a game playing them.

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I don't think the LC is dying as been same for a number of years now. Interesting Copa del Rey seems to have much more significance in Spain now and good to see. But as many say PL riches drive the obsession with league and not same structure in Spain.

Sunderland getting 20k is poor but on tv just before Christmas won't have helped either.

 

AVB took the cups seriously and look where got him.

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Christ. I felt a little bit of my soul die reading that.

 

Just as a counterpoint I would say it is more ambitious to want to see us win a cup this season or next season than mentally sacrifice them all for the wafer thin chance that in twenty years time we are a team that might finish fourth. Seriously, life's too short. Let's get to Wembley.

 

Your twenty year spreadsheet-strategy view on our football club seems utterly soulless. You can keep it.

 

And excellent playing, yet again, of the "cup-wins-equate-with-relegation" card. Look at Wigan! Look at Wigan! Ridiculous.

 

Its not that black and white though us it?

 

A stronger side would not guarantee winning a cup (odds still would have been against us making the final even if we had beaten Sunderland).

 

Neither does resting players guarantee a higher league position.

 

But if concentrating on the league resulted in a higher final position (no way of knowing) it also keeps the club progressing - raising money & status, which improve chances of future cup runs.

 

I would love a cup final day out (even a Zenith Data or JPT!) and if NC reaches his target and we become established as top 8, 6, 4 side hopefully I will get more.

 

Heart is wants the cups given a higher priority but head knows league (even the difference of few places) more important in long term

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Its not that black and white though us it?

 

A stronger side would not guarantee winning a cup (odds still would have been against us making the final even if we had beaten Sunderland).

 

Neither does resting players guarantee a higher league position.

 

But if concentrating on the league resulted in a higher final position (no way of knowing) it also keeps the club progressing - raising money & status, which improve chances of future cup runs.

 

I would love a cup final day out (even a Zenith Data or JPT!) and if NC reaches his target and we become established as top 8, 6, 4 side hopefully I will get more.

 

Heart is wants the cups given a higher priority but head knows league (even the difference of few places) more important in long term

 

I tell you what isn't black and white NickG. The idea that finishing, say, eighth this season means we will finish sixth the following season, then fourth, and so on.

 

The idea that we are locked into a three, four, five, ten year journey is really pretty fanciful, and more black and white than anything I've said.

 

And clearly those League finishes is never going to "fund cup runs" because people like you are never going to support a cup run, there will always be some other league-based target you would prioritise.

 

No one knows who our owner, manager or team will be even this time next year. No one. Only last summer we had rumbles of Cortese walking but now that's all fine for "a couple of decades" (Rasiak-9's timeframe) of top six/four finishes?

 

So I agree. It ain't that black and white.

Edited by CB Fry
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I presume all the people slagging off cups as being irrelevant would not be interested in having a ticket to go to a final should we get there. They'd much rather queue for a ticket to Sunderland at home in the league than cue for a cup final ticket. They will upload hilarious fancy dress pictures of themselves outside the King Alfred for Fulham at home have a great time than walking up Wembley way to cup final. These games are so much more important to them surely? I presume non of them bothered with the JPT final and enjoyed the league win against Carlise the following season far more. Indeed the JPT final will be remembered as a hollow dsy for SFC as if we didn't get to that final we would most DEFINTELY have won L1 that season, right?

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I'd love for the league cup to be more relevant. I wish Mauricio had paid it a little more attention this year. However, its done now, and is now only a subject passionately debated by those with an axe to grind. Not sure why the anti-club brigade have kept on this one with such relish, guess that shows how little they have to complain about at the moment.

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I tell you what isn't black and white NickG. The idea that finishing, say, eighth this season means we will finish sixth the following season, then fourth, and so on.

 

The idea that we are locked into a three, four, five, ten year journey is really pretty fanciful, and more black and white than anything I've said.

 

No one knows who our owner, manager or team will be even this time next year. No one. Only last summer we had rumbles of Cortese walking but now that's all fine for "a couple of decades" (Rasiak-9's timeframe) of top six/four finishes?

 

So I agree. It ain't that black and white.

 

Loads of examples of teams progressing then plummeting (Newcastle last few seasons) when aiming for steady improvement. So you are right we are not locked into a journey.

 

But my take on NC is that he is likely to see good cup runs as more important & likely after establishing us as regulars in the top half of prem. He won't see it as fanciful.

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After past conversations we played weakened sides in the cup,it seems that is OK if you win but not if you lose. If you play your strongest team (this is the thought of a poster on here)in the LC ,then it I assume it is expected that you have to play your strongest team in the FA cup ( unless those rules close to suit your argument) Therefore our first 11 may have been expected to fight the battle on 3 fronts. With our style of play that would be madness. Sunderland now face a 2leg semi final , the FA cup and a league struggle.

I do agree that the LC is where we are most likely to get to a final and would be great for us all.

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After past conversations we played weakened sides in the cup,it seems that is OK if you win but not if you lose. If you play your strongest team (this is the thought of a poster on here)in the LC ,then it I assume it is expected that you have to play your strongest team in the FA cup ( unless those rules close to suit your argument) Therefore our first 11 may have been expected to fight the battle on 3 fronts. With our style of play that would be madness. Sunderland now face a 2leg semi final , the FA cup and a league struggle.

I do agree that the LC is where we are most likely to get to a final and would be great for us all.

 

Hope you're not referring to me sunshine. Because you know full well I have never said we should play our strongest team in all cup games.

 

Keep bull sh itting, it's deliciously desperate.

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Its more to do with the premier league and clubs desperation to stay in it. In the 80s Liverpool won it 4 years in a row but other winners included Oxford, Norwich, QPR and Luton. I remember quarter finals and semis at the Dell in the 80s with it being packed to the rafters and a great atmosphere. It was always the big clubs 3rd priority so the smaller first division clubs always had a chance of a decent run in it, not dissimilar to now expect that no one takes it seriously, the top clubs as they want the champions league and everyone else just wants to stay in the premier league so all top flight clubs field weekend sides until the latter rounds. Some people sneer at the league cup and would take 17th in the premier league over winning it, yet the fact of the matter is it is a major trophy and Oxford and Luton have won a major trophy more recently than we have. It's the premier league that has ruined the league cup and also the FA cup.

That's the truth and the reason why we will continue to play 2nd elevens. You either accept it or post endlessly moaning about it. I see which option you have chosen.

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Att: 20,731. Don't find the joke that funny myself for a competition lots of people seem not to give a toss about

 

Agreed, thats a decent crowd for a live midweek game in the 3rd choice competition. Its just that 20k does not look like much in a ground thats too big for you.....take note QPR

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Its not that black and white though us it?

 

A stronger side would not guarantee winning a cup (odds still would have been against us making the final even if we had beaten Sunderland).

 

Neither does resting players guarantee a higher league position.

 

But if concentrating on the league resulted in a higher final position (no way of knowing) it also keeps the club progressing - raising money & status, which improve chances of future cup runs.

 

I would love a cup final day out (even a Zenith Data or JPT!) and if NC reaches his target and we become established as top 8, 6, 4 side hopefully I will get more.

 

Heart is wants the cups given a higher priority but head knows league (even the difference of few places) more important in long term

 

If we are talking about progressing as a club I think a cup win would do way more in terms of raising profile and increasing fan base than finishing 6th. It is also the most likely way to qualify for Europe which makes the club more attractive to the better players.

 

Wether we finish 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th will make little impact on our club except for the prize money. It's a shame that money rules the game nowadays, it's an even bigger shame that so many fans are happy to play along with it.

 

We have had some cracking League Cup games in the past. I was a kid when Andy Ritchie equalised for Oldham in the last minute of injury time at the Dell, it felt like the world had ended as I really believed we would get to Wembley.

Edited by aintforever
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The Champions League is a joke, correction just a money spinner, the side that wins the Prem or what ever they call it in other European Countrys and they should compete for the European Cup not the sides that come 2nd, 3rd and fourth or am I just old fashioned.

Edited by Toomer
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If we are talking about progressing as a club I think a cup win would do way more in terms of raising profile and increasing fan base than finishing 6th. It is also the most likely way to qualify for Europe which makes the club more attractive to the better players.

 

Wether we finish 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th will make little impact on our club except for the prize money. It's a shame that money rules the game nowadays, it's an even bigger shame that so many fans are happy to play along with it.

 

But that's assuming the perceived gamble pays off...and we win the cup.

It's subjective but, for example, going out of cup when we did and finishing 9th, would benefit growth of club more than losing a league cup final or maybe even winning it.

 

As said before I would love a cup final but can see the logic of resting first team players.

 

Not sure what you mean about fans going along with it?

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

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If we are talking about progressing as a club I think a cup win would do way more in terms of raising profile and increasing fan base than finishing 6th. It is also the most likely way to qualify for Europe which makes the club more attractive to the better players.

 

Wether we finish 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th will make little impact on our club except for the prize money. It's a shame that money rules the game nowadays, it's an even bigger shame that so many fans are happy to play along with it.

 

We have had some cracking League Cup games in the past. I was a kid when Andy Ritchie equalised for Oldham in the last minute of injury time at the Dell, it felt like the world had ended as I really believed we would get to Wembley.

Exactly that, right down to the Andy Ritchie bit unfortunately!
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The Champions League is a joke, correction just a money spinner, the side that wins the Prem or what ever they call it in other European Countrys and they should compete for the European Cuo not the sides that come 2nd, 3rd and fourth or am I just old fashioned.

 

i like it how it is! If you just had league winners you'd only have teams who was best last season, not neccessarily who is the best team this year.

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I don't think the LC is dying as been same for a number of years now. Interesting Copa del Rey seems to have much more significance in Spain now and good to see. But as many say PL riches drive the obsession with league and not same structure in Spain.

Sunderland getting 20k is poor but on tv just before Christmas won't have helped either.

 

AVB took the cups seriously and look where got him.

 

20K is poor when you consider tickets were £15 each

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I presume all the people slagging off cups as being irrelevant would not be interested in having a ticket to go to a final should we get there. They'd much rather queue for a ticket to Sunderland at home in the league than cue for a cup final ticket. They will upload hilarious fancy dress pictures of themselves outside the King Alfred for Fulham at home have a great time than walking up Wembley way to cup final. These games are so much more important to them surely? I presume non of them bothered with the JPT final and enjoyed the league win against Carlise the following season far more. Indeed the JPT final will be remembered as a hollow dsy for SFC as if we didn't get to that final we would most DEFINTELY have won L1 that season, right?

 

I'd have really liked to have had a good go at the League Cup this year to get some silverware in the trophy cabinet as much as anything else, something we have been deprived of at SFC over the years. When you think that the League Cup is the only trophy that Spurs (for instance) have won in the last 22 seasons it suggests that you should get it when you can! The 'roll' that followed the FA Cup final win in 1976 lasted right up until McMenemy left - part of Saints increasing the fan base has to be wins at Wembley...

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The word is in the tittle of the competition CHAMPIONS not runners up and also rans.

 

That's just a title, it's ultimately a competition for the top teams in all of Europes major leagues and a few from some of the smaller ones. If they just changed it's name to the European Cup, would that make it all better?

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That's the truth and the reason why we will continue to play 2nd elevens. You either accept it or post endlessly moaning about it. I see which option you have chosen.

 

And there was me thinking the main raison d'être of a forum is to express opinions.

 

It of course begs the question then, are we a sports team or a cash cow? Are our fans now more interested in finishing 8th because it means a few extra quid in the bank rather than have a good go at winning something. We've already seen it claimed some people would finish 6th over winning a cup and seem to think having a oh at winning it would be mean we would struggle in the league. For clubs like us the only realistic chance of a trophy is a cup, pretty sad that so called football fans would swap a day out and cup glory for finishing a couple of places higher in the league.

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