Nationalism?

[Window Cleaner]

Wasn't it exactly the reverse? - he was demonstrating to his court the limits of his powers.

 

Not sure then, thought the anecdote comes from the writings of Henry of Huntingdon who seemed to imply that Canute(or rather his counsellors) thought he could rule the waves and sit on the sea. However "only the lily rules the waves" is part of the motto of the house of Aquitaine so there could be some historical confusion in the whole episode and it's legend rather than fact.

[Barry Sanchez]

The nationalism of this country has been diluted by the immigration policies and the growth of political correctness. One only has to see the crowds of residents especially Indian and Pakistanis supporting our opponents during test matches. Or Poles etc at football matches against their mother countries.

 

I'm not on about the Tebbit test and all that, this concerns a day for all of us, what actually binds us in this Country?

[norwaysaint]

Like others have said, national days are often as a result of being liberated or declared a new country. Over here we celebrate the constitution day as a national day, there's also some celebration of the day the country was liberated from the nazis, but not a national holiday.

 

Despite Barry's hilarious comment, no, Britain wasn't liberated from the Normans. They never stopped ruling us in one form or another until we invited over their distant relatives from other countries to replace them.

 

There's nothing wrong or intrinsically right wing about nationalism or national days, our labour party here celebrate them just as enthusiastically as our conservative party.

 

The only problem I've ever considered about a British national day (no real reason it should have anything to do with very non-British St George) is that there can be a British hang up where too many people have a need to mix a bit of hatred of others in with their British pride. A national day in most countries means people of all cultures coming together and celebrating the country they live in and mostly it's built around being a great day for kids. I think it would be great for the whole country to manage that. We have people parading in their national costume from wherever their home country was, the are plenty of kilts out on streets and saris and all sorts of stuff. Every home here has a flag.

 

I think the olympic spirit showed it should be possible if people want it.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Quite possibly yes.

 

That still doesn't fit with "England being liberated byt the Normans". The population of England was predominantly Saxon. The Normans came in and took over. Who were they liberating the Saxons from? They could only liberate if the majority were being repressed by a minority and they then handed control over to the majority. A key giveway was King William I's moniker. William the Liberator? no. William the Conqueror.

[pap]

Can we not celebrate, diversity, acceptance, humilty and how lucky and fortunate we are on our National Saints Day? Is that so difisive and bad?

 

Don't you think we have rather more important things to do than slap ourselves over the backs for being fired out of a British-based m!nge?

[Barry Sanchez]

Don't you think we have rather more important things to do than slap ourselves over the backs for being fired out of a British-based m!nge?

 

Answer the question, should we not can we?

[Barry Sanchez]

That still doesn't fit with "England being liberated byt the Normans". The population of England was predominantly Saxon. The Normans came in and took over. Who were they liberating the Saxons from? They could only liberate if the majority were being repressed by a minority and they then handed control over to the majority. A key giveway was King William I's moniker. William the Liberator? no. William the Conqueror.

 

So what are you exactly saying, William the Conquerer was the correct King? If so its difficult to be sure and its going well of on a tangent dont you think?

[norwaysaint]

The nationalism of this country has been diluted by the immigration policies and the growth of political correctness. One only has to see the crowds of residents especially Indian and Pakistanis supporting our opponents during test matches. Or Poles etc at football matches against their mother countries.

 

This is just full of ignorance. I'm an enthusiastic resident of Norway, I love the country and pay my taxes. I'm an immigrant, but you'll see me out there on the national day along with all of the other immigrants, celebrating the country we live in. Does it count less because I still support Saints and England? No, of course not and I don't know any Norwegians who'd think differently.

 

Immigrants here are encouraged to join in with the national day and we all celebrate together. Everybody and I really mean everybody is out on the streets. Do you really think that dilutes nationalism? If so you're a moron, because all it does is build a national pride that runs through all of us, the immigrants become proud Norwegians too. The melting pot never worked in any country, what we have here are Anglo- Norwegians, Indian Norwegians etc, just like in the very nationalistic US they have Italian Americans, Irish Americans and so on, cultures within a culture.

 

It's the attempts by the likes of you to exclude and marginalise immigrant groups for retaining any of their original culture that nationalism gets diluted.

 

 

Oh and political correctness only means not unfairly discriminating against one group of people. There's nothing wrong with that, only with the idiots who don't get that simple idea and interpret it wrongly. Nobody ever did ban Christmas.

[solentstars]

Like others have said, national days are often as a result of being liberated or declared a new country. Over here we celebrate the constitution day as a national day, there's also some celebration of the day the country was liberated from the nazis, but not a national holiday.

 

Despite Barry's hilarious comment, no, Britain wasn't liberated from the Normans. They never stopped ruling us in one form or another until we invited over their distant relatives from other countries to replace them.

 

There's nothing wrong or intrinsically right wing about nationalism or national days, our labour party here celebrate them just as enthusiastically as our conservative party.

 

The only problem I've ever considered about a British national day (no real reason it should have anything to do with very non-British St George) is that there can be a British hang up where too many people have a need to mix a bit of hatred of others in with their British pride. A national day in most countries means people of all cultures coming together and celebrating the country they live in and mostly it's built around being a great day for kids. I think it would be great for the whole country to manage that. We have people parading in their national costume from wherever their home country was, the are plenty of kilts out on streets and saris and all sorts of stuff. Every home here has a flag.

 

I think the olympic spirit showed it should be possible if people want it.

 

Good post and it's great when we celebrate things which Unite us has a nation.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Smirking_Saint]

Don't you think we have rather more important things to do than slap ourselves over the backs for being fired out of a British-based m!nge?

 

Whilst you dont necessarily want to be overly patriotic (dont get me wrong though none of us want to be at the Americans sick inducing levels) you cant put a blanket coverall and recommend that noone else should be either. Yes, I understand I have done nothing but be born here but for me, from that moment I am English and proud to be so.

 

Whilst I do think its media over stimulation that leads us to believe as a nation we are not allowed to be nationalistic far too many people do start preaching the racism or PC cards if anybody dares to be in the slightest bit proud of our country of birth.

[pap]

Answer the question, should we not can we?

 

The question is already answered. We don't celebrate it, nor can I see any good reason for doing so. If we were going to do nationalism, you'd have thought it would have happened when such ideas were in vogue, and the likes of Moseley were doing the rounds. Never happened, and it's probably not a coincidence that most nations that did go big into nationalism were young or newly formed nations, unsure of their place in the world.

[Barry Sanchez]

Good post and it's great when we celebrate things which Unite us has a nation.

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

So you advoacate a National day of unity and celebration of how lucky we are? As opposed to a day of what seperates us a day of what unifies us?

[Sour Mash]

Most of the things I have pride in are things I've done myself.

 

I never had any choice over where I was born. Seems a bit weird to be proud of an accident of birth.

You're not proud to come from Southampton?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

So what are you exactly saying, William the Conquerer was the correct King? If so its difficult to be sure and its going well of on a tangent dont you think?

 

How can you possibly infer that from what I've written? You get a bit precious when others don't answer your questions but you've struggled to undertake basic comprehension.

 

You came up with a silly notion that the Normans liberated England. I pointed out that King William I was called William the Conquerer not William the Liberator which was kind of a massive clue that the Normans weren't on a liberation mission.

 

I've not made any comment on whether or not he was "the correct king" whatever that means. As I understand it there were several claimaints to the crown none of which has a particularly strong case.

[pap]

Whilst you dont necessarily want to be overly patriotic (dont get me wrong though none of us want to be at the Americans sick inducing levels) you cant put a blanket coverall and recommend that noone else should be either. Yes, I understand I have done nothing but be born here but for me, from that moment I am English and proud to be so.

 

Whilst I do think its media over stimulation that leads us to believe as a nation we are not allowed to be nationalistic far too many people do start preaching the racism or PC cards if anybody dares to be in the slightest bit proud of our country of birth.

 

I can't stop other people from being nationalistic, but I can point out the vicarious nature of taking pride in something you had no part in. It's actually a less defensible position than that of the vicarious parent, who at least can claim to have been an influence in their young charges.

 

The whole country? Nah. I'm very happy to celebrate the achievements of individual Britons, especially those who have helped to make this country what it is today. Can't take any pride in them, though. To quote Bart Simpson, "it was like that when I got here".

[Sour Mash]

The nationalism of this country has been diluted by the immigration policies and the growth of political correctness. One only has to see the crowds of residents especially Indian and Pakistanis supporting our opponents during test matches. Or Poles etc at football matches against their mother countries.

Exactly that. We have vast areas of our cities that don't really consider themselves English.

[pap]

You're not proud to come from Southampton?

 

Nope, because I had bugger all to do with it.

 

I'm not proud of the babywear I used to sport in the late 70s either.

[solentstars]

Exactly that. We have vast areas of our cities that don't really consider themselves English.

 

Don't agree if you go to USA they can support there parents culturial difference but still rally around the stars and stripes

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Sour Mash]

Nope, because I had bugger all to do with it.

 

I'm not proud of the babywear I used to sport in the late 70s either.

Fair enough. If Saints were to win the league this season would you not feel proud of the club/team?

[Sour Mash]

Don't agree if you go to USA they can support there parents culturial difference but still rally around the stars and stripes

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

But we're not talking about the USA.

[Barry Sanchez]

I can't stop other people from being nationalistic, but I can point out the vicarious nature of taking pride in something you had no part in. It's actually a less defensible position than that of the vicarious parent, who at least can claim to have been an influence in their young charges.

 

The whole country? Nah. I'm very happy to celebrate the achievements of individual Britons, especially those who have helped to make this country what it is today. Can't take any pride in them, though. To quote Bart Simpson, "it was like that when I got here".

 

I thought I was dour, what do you take pride in? Or do you have such influence you only take pride in what you can change? Surely you cant celebrate a Southampton victory as you had not part in it? Its also meaningless as well.

[pap]

I thought I was dour, what do you take pride in? Or do you have such influence you only take pride in what you can change? Surely you cant celebrate a Southampton victory as you had not part in it? Its also meaningless as well.

 

What do I take pride in? The quiet nobility of parenthood, the quality of my work, the relationships I've worked hard to maintain and the sort of person I've become, despite questionable raw material

[Barry Sanchez]

What do I take pride in? The quiet nobility of parenthood, the quality of my work, the relationships I've worked hard to maintain and the sort of person I've become, despite questionable raw material

 

They are all givens or should be Pap, nothing wrong in taking pride in that at all, why not the place you reside in? I have lived in other Countries and this apathy and lack of interest is unique to this Country trust me.

[trousers]

Fair enough. If Saints were to win the league this season would you not feel proud of the club/team?

 

Which football team one supports is a matter of choice not chance...

[View From The Top]

St George isn't even our real patron saint, he was imposed upon us.

 

For folk so proud of our fine nation you seem to know little of its history.

[Barry Sanchez]

Which football team one supports is a matter of choice not chance...

 

Cant we then celebrate how lucky we are and therefore how grateful we are together, some of us for being born here and others for coming here and enjoying what this Country brought them here in the first place?

Surely thats a positive inclusive thing to be promoted?

And to finish people do choose Countries.

Edited 12 December, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Barry Sanchez]

St George isn't even our real patron saint, he was imposed upon us.

 

For folk so proud of our fine nation you seem to know little of its history.

 

So were Kings and Queens, that does not mean the people of this Nation can not have a day together to celebrate all that is good about this Country.

[pap]

Which football team one supports is a matter of choice not chance...

 

Precisely, and Saints haven't been an easy choice

[View From The Top]

So were Kings and Queens, that does not mean the people of this Nation can not have a day together to celebrate all that is good about this Country.

 

They do it every 23rd of April where I live and the Sunday before we go to biggest St Georges day parade in England in one of the most ethnically diverse parts of the UK, paid for in part by a "Liberal" Labour council.

 

I'd sooner have Trafalgar Day as a national holiday than some foreign fella who never laid foot in England if we cannot have the feast day of our true patron saint.

[badgerx16]

 

I'd sooner have Trafalgar Day as a national holiday than some foreign fella who never laid foot in England if we cannot have the feast day of our true patron saint.

 

Who was it who said the other day that they preferred to use the EuroStar when all the French passengers coming here had to disembark at Waterloo.

[Deano6]

Having a Bank Holiday for St George's Day would be a bad idea simply because it falls too close to Easter. This year is a particularly good example - you'd have Good Friday (18 April) off, then Easter Monday (21 April) - go back to work on 22nd - then have 23rd off for St George's Day.

 

In 2011 it would have fallen on Easter Saturday - God knows what you'd do then!

 

Keeping it 1 May leaves just enough of a gap to eliminate those complications.

[Barry Sanchez]

They do it every 23rd of April where I live and the Sunday before we go to biggest St Georges day parade in England in one of the most ethnically diverse parts of the UK, paid for in part by a "Liberal" Labour council.

 

I'd sooner have Trafalgar Day as a national holiday than some foreign fella who never laid foot in England if we cannot have the feast day of our true patron saint.

 

I would to, people jump onto the fact of St George, the rabid extreme left do anyway but I say I am not arsed if its any figure but one we all can unite over and have a day off together, it does not have to be a figure at all.

[Jonnyboy]

I'm from Planet Earth thanks. Not always proud of this fact.

[Halo Stickman]

Having a Bank Holiday for St George's Day would be a bad idea simply because it falls too close to Easter. This year is a particularly good example - you'd have Good Friday (18 April) off, then Easter Monday (21 April) - go back to work on 22nd - then have 23rd off for St George's Day.

 

In 2011 it would have fallen on Easter Saturday - God knows what you'd do then!

 

Keeping it 1 May leaves just enough of a gap to eliminate those complications.

 

1 May gets my vote - call it Saint Bobby's Day

[eurosaint]

Belgium has a national day and many people hang their flags off balconies and out of windows etc..

Problem is that they generally hang them sideways which turns it into the German flag inducing the odd brick through windows* from visiting Brits !!!

(* poetic licence there but quite funny nonetheless!)

[Saint_clark]

Exactly. St Georges Day doesn't really commemorate anything. Just some Lebanese (or other Middle Eastern country) bloke who didn't really kill a dragon.

 

I'd go for Henry VIII breaking from Rome thus making us a Protestant country and printing the Bible in English so that even the lower orders could read it thus lessening the powers of the Church.

 

Don't think that he did it all in one day though.

 

Closest thing we've got to a national day is Guy Fawkes.

[WindsorSaint]

Closest thing we've got to a national day is Guy Fawkes.

 

But I'm never sure now if we celebrate him getting caught, or celebrate that he actually had a go!

[Barry Sanchez]

But I'm never sure now if we celebrate him getting caught, or celebrate that he actually had a go!

 

Now that is the question:)

[SuperMikey]

I'm the result of a bit of national cross-breeding myself: both of my Grandmas moved from their countries (Ireland and Sweden respectively) after generations of their family having lived there, and married men who had family going back generations in their countries (England and Scotland respectively) as well. Given that i'm a bit of a mongrel in terms of nationality, I have always found nationalism a bit odd. I've lived in Hampshire for all of my 22 years, but I wouldn't identify myself as English. In fact, I find the whole idea of being proud of a country, or countries being superior to others a bit of a farce given that the countries themselves are only constructs of our society.

 

Call me a wishy-washy liberal, but I prefer to think of everyone as human as opposed to Uruguayan or Czech or whatever. Lets look at the bigger picture here!

[badgerx16]

Closest thing we've got to a national day is Guy Fawkes.

 

That WAS a public holiday up to 1859.

[Mystic Force]

I am a wishy washy liberal but the longer I live in the US the more English I feel. I could never support the USA instead of England in any sporting event, and I am working on making my kids do the same in opposition to my wifes rabid attempts to claim them for Mexico.

[Rasiak-9-]

What do I take pride in? The quiet nobility of parenthood, the quality of my work, the relationships I've worked hard to maintain and the sort of person I've become, despite questionable raw material

 

[Ohio Saint]

 

Not a master of debate, are you.

[Ken Tone]

Go on, thats a bold statement, werent the English liberated from the Normans?

 

 

Eh? History's not one of your strong points is it, Barry?

[View From The Top]

Eh? History's not one of your strong points is it, Barry?

 

As I posted earlier, considering how patriotic he is his grasp of English history is shockingly poor.

[derry]

This is just full of ignorance. I'm an enthusiastic resident of Norway, I love the country and pay my taxes. I'm an immigrant, but you'll see me out there on the national day along with all of the other immigrants, celebrating the country we live in. Does it count less because I still support Saints and England? No, of course not and I don't know any Norwegians who'd think differently.

 

Immigrants here are encouraged to join in with the national day and we all celebrate together. Everybody and I really mean everybody is out on the streets. Do you really think that dilutes nationalism? If so you're a moron, because all it does is build a national pride that runs through all of us, the immigrants become proud Norwegians too. The melting pot never worked in any country, what we have here are Anglo- Norwegians, Indian Norwegians etc, just like in the very nationalistic US they have Italian Americans, Irish Americans and so on, cultures within a culture.

 

It's the attempts by the likes of you to exclude and marginalise immigrant groups for retaining any of their original culture that nationalism gets diluted.

 

 

Oh and political correctness only means not unfairly discriminating against one group of people. There's nothing wrong with that, only with the idiots who don't get that simple idea and interpret it wrongly. Nobody ever did ban Christmas.

 

I have dual nationality. In England I'm English. As a long haul airline captain I wouldn't mind betting I had a damn sight more experience of successfully mixing with different races and creeds in their countries. It seems that the discrimination in this country is mostly against the native population. Immigrants need to integrate not be encouraged to live in ghettos which certainly don't encourage integration and even now are causing problems between immigrants of different nationalities. Pakistanis patrolling their streets in Sheffield against Roma immigrants. When was the last time an ethnic English man bombed a train or bus? Went to Syria to fight or worse Afghanistan against British troops. I would suggest the influx of immigrants in this country in the last ten years can in no way be compared to Norway. We are relatively unscathed around Hampshire but the people of eg. Boston or Peterborough might well have a different view.

[Hamilton Saint]

Nationalism is fine, as long as it doesn't become a xenophobic kind of jingoism. American nationalism, for example, often manifests itself as an ugly exceptionalism; they truly believe that America is the greatest democracy in the world - that their system, per se, is better than any other. That kind of nationalism is unhealthy - it needs to be tempered by a certain amount of internationalist spirit.

 

You can feel a pride for your own - a pride in being English - as I do, and still admire and respect other peoples, other nations.

[View From The Top]

I have dual nationality. In England I'm English. As a long haul airline captain I wouldn't mind betting I had a damn sight more experience of successfully mixing with different races and creeds in their countries. It seems that the discrimination in this country is mostly against the native population. Immigrants need to integrate not be encouraged to live in ghettos which certainly don't encourage integration and even now are causing problems between immigrants of different nationalities. Pakistanis patrolling their streets in Sheffield against Roma immigrants. When was the last time an ethnic English man bombed a train or bus? Went to Syria to fight or worse Afghanistan against British troops. I would suggest the influx of immigrants in this country in the last ten years can in no way be compared to Norway. We are relatively unscathed around Hampshire but the people of eg. Boston or Peterborough might well have a different view.

 

Typical clueless UKIP voter.

[aintforever]

It is weird how the Scottish, Welsh and Irish can be so nationalistic yet we can't.

 

I guess it's because we are so obviously better we are afraid it will come across and being arrogant to boast about it.

[Hamilton Saint]

It is weird how the Scottish, Welsh and Irish can be so nationalistic yet we can't.

 

I guess it's because we are so obviously better we are afraid it will come across and being arrogant to boast about it.

 

It's to do with a sense of domination or, even, oppression. The English can feel smug and condescending, because of their history of domination; the minority groups feel resentment because of their sense of being ignored, or exploited. It is the difference in the power relationships which creates grievance and resentment.