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RIP Nelson Mandela

Lighthouse

By Lighthouse
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The Kraken

The Kraken

Posted
Posted
You observed that the country was not united. My view having visited the place is that this is not the case. People we spoke to were clearly proud of their country and the concept of a "rainbow nation" trying to make a place for itself in the world.

I guess that people who have left the country and have made their minds up that the place is going to the dogs are not going to sign its praises. The people they have left behind do seem to have a national spirit.

And there are many of those; I've certainly met many. They were perhaps the most "un-racist" white people I've ever met, their thirst for proper integration was incredible.

 

On the flip side, I've met just as many South Africans (and some Zims) who were still shockingly racist, who have no intention of integrating, who still regular use the term "Kaffir" in everyday language, and in fact who I found were massively proud of being racist and wouldn't countenance anything other than a colonial mindset. It was tyically the Dutchies that were the worst, to be fair.

 

So I can't consider in any way that SA is a United nation. A lot of its inhabitants would like to be one, but I'd say a lot also don't.

Verbal

Verbal

Posted
Posted

Seven pages of heat and very little light.

 

Historically, pretty much the only people to call Mandela a terrorist were Thatcher and the racist apartheid regime - and even the SA regime, with all its brutal power, could never pin an actual criminal charge of terrorism on Mandela. He was cleared in his original trial (the offences included leaving the country without permission) and then, after much rearrangement of the paperwork, was convicted of sabotage. (It says something for the poverty of education in this country that something a snarling politician said 30 years ago is taken as gospel).

 

In his famous speech at his second trial he spelled out his political ideals in these words:

 

During my lifetime I have dedicated my life to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal for which I hope to live for and to see realised. But if it needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

 

Of course, we don't have to take this at face value - except that his life, in prison and out, clearly followed that moral and political path.

Tamesaint

Tamesaint

Posted
Posted
People say pretty innocuous statements like SA is not a united country - I'd call that a problem - and you scream prejudice because they haven't been on the same holiday as you. That's what I'm on about. All on this thread.

 

Hope you had a lovely holiday.

 

So all that about John Simpson was you proving an inability to read and comprehend ?

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted (edited)
So all that about John Simpson was you proving an inability to read and comprehend ?

 

Now what are you on about?

 

You think John Simpson agrees with your happy jolly united rainbow nation that you experienced on not one but two holidays? Alright then.

Edited by CB Fry
Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
Turkish, nice to see such a balanced opinion on that website you've just linked.

 

You boring, trolling, pr*ck.

 

Typical response. Hilarious, say something people don't like and show FACTS and abused for it.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
Oh dear you should get out more. Mr troll

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

I don't know how I'll ever recover from such a sustained attack. Did you know your last 6 posts have been about me?

 

Obsessed.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
Not exactly balanced is it, you thick c*nt.

 

Did you know in your last 6 posts you've called someone a c*nt 3 times and someone else a pr*ck. I think you've got anger issues pal, maybe you need to see someone about it.

Verbal

Verbal

Posted
Posted
What a great guy, what a hero, this is all fully justified, what else was he meant to do?

 

http://www.censorbugbear.org/africa/south-africa/nobel-peace-laureate-nelson-mandelas-bombs-for-the-record#CvcXGI1EoaClx5Rx.99

 

I'm not sure you're helping your argument by quoting a pro-Apartheid (that is to say, racist) website.

 

And what are the "facts" here, that you seem so impressed by? The list of bombings are dated from 1981 to the "late 80s". Mandela was in prison, often in solitary confinement, from 1962 to 1990.

 

Your Apartheid-loving mates quote Mandela as saying that he "personally signed off" on one of those attacks (Church Street) or all of them - it's not clear which. This quote is supposedly in The Long Walk to Freedom, his autobiography. Far-right sites, including your friends at Stormfront, are quoting it, without ever giving a proper attribution. All they quote is that phrase - nothing else.

 

So can you please post the actual quote, as a paragraph?

 

I could find no reference at all to a claim by Mandela that he "personally signed off" bombings from solitary confinement. He does comment on Church Street in the book, saying:

 

The killing of civilians was a tragic accident, and I felt a profound horror at the death toll. But as disturbed as I was by these casualties, I knew that such accidents were the inevitable consequence of the decision to embark on a military struggle.

 

Hardly the same as "personally signed off", is it?

 

Incidentally, since you are so enamoured of facts, your Apartheid friends claim that the famous "I am prepared to die" sentence was uttered at the beginning of Mandela's speech at his trial. It wasn't. They were the last words of his speech.

 

Still, facts are facts...

hutch

hutch

Posted
Posted

Wow, so much expert knowledge on here, I'm not sure if I dare to intrude.

 

How about if I could answer yes to all the following questions:

 

Am I a South African citizen?

Have I lived in South Africa for the last 18 years?

Did I live here for 2 years in the '60s under Apartheid?

Have I met the late Nelson Mandela when he was President?

Do I regularly visit friends in "the townships"?

Does my wife regularly visit friends in "the townships" by herself without fear?

Have we embraced the rainbow concept by adopting African children?

 

Would that perhaps allow me to share my opinion?

 

If it does then I can say unequivocally that was a truly great man, may he rest in peace.

 

South Africa today has it's problems, but it is a better place than it was last year, and that was better than the year before that. etc, etc. I visit very very many countries in Africa every year, and without a shadow of doubt South Africans are healthier, wealthier and better educated than any others in sub-Saharan Africa.

 

But don't let me dissuade you from agreeing with the loads of South Africans that you all work with every day, or met in the pub, or on a bus. I'm just an idiot with a British passport as well that stupidly wants to live in Africa. Clearly I don't understand the benefits of living in modern-day Britain.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
I'm not sure you're helping your argument by quoting a pro-Apartheid (that is to say, racist) website.

 

And what are the "facts" here, that you seem so impressed by? The list of bombings are dated from 1981 to the "late 80s". Mandela was in prison, often in solitary confinement, from 1962 to 1990.

 

Your Apartheid-loving mates quote Mandela as saying that he "personally signed off" on one of those attacks (Church Street) or all of them - it's not clear which. This quote is supposedly in The Long Walk to Freedom, his autobiography. Far-right sites, including your friends at Stormfront, are quoting it, without ever giving a proper attribution. All they quote is that phrase - nothing else.

 

So can you please post the actual quote, as a paragraph?

 

I could find no reference at all to a claim by Mandela that he "personally signed off" bombings from solitary confinement. He does comment on Church Street in the book, saying:

 

 

 

Hardly the same as "personally signed off", is it?

 

Incidentally, since you are so enamoured of facts, your Apartheid friends claim that the famous "I am prepared to die" sentence was uttered at the beginning of Mandela's speech at his trial. It wasn't. They were the last words of his speech.

 

Still, facts are facts...

 

Shut up you lunatic.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
What an intelligent response.

 

LOL

 

I know more about him than you could ever do. I spent a weekend away in the town where he live. So shut up with your prejudice.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted (edited)
Another intelligent response. Getting really rattled now aren't you Turkish.

 

LOL.

 

Not at all mate, I see you never said anything about wade Garrett calling me a c*nt and a pri*ck. Was that post more intelligent than mine? Sums the thread up doesn't it.

 

Here are more victims of the ANC. Shhhh. It never happened, don't talk about it or reply to the posts of the troll, call him a c*nt, do whatever I takes but don't ever discuss what mandelas mob did before he becomes a peace seeker. LOL.

 

churchstbomb-2.jpg

Edited by Turkish
Tamesaint

Tamesaint

Posted
Posted
Not at all mate, I see you never said anything about wade Garrett calling me a c*nt and a pri*ck. Was that post more intelligent than mine? Sums the thread up doesn't it.

 

Here are more victims of the ANC. Shhhh. It never happened, don't talk about it or reply to the posts of the troll, call him a c*nt, do whatever I takes but don't ever discuss what mandelas mob did before he becomes a peace seeker. LOL.

 

 

 

churchstbomb-2.jpg

 

 

I am getting worried about you Turkish. Last night you took exception to a derogatory statement that I made about Nick Griffin. Today you have displayed an unhealthy knowledge of some racist websites.

 

I would defend your right to have extreme right wing views .... but people with those views deserve the names that wade garrett gave you.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
I am getting worried about you Turkish. Last night you took exception to a derogatory statement that I made about Nick Griffin. Today you have displayed an unhealthy knowledge of some racist websites.

 

I would defend your right to have extreme right wing views .... but people with those views deserve the names that wade garrett give you.

 

LOL, another refusal to deal with anything said that doesn't agree 100% with your viewpoint! Hilarious mate. I notice not one person has commented on the video of Mandela singing about killing whites, yet people are saying those that posted it are racist and c*nts, brilliant mongboarding!!

Tamesaint

Tamesaint

Posted
Posted
LOL, another refusal to deal with anything said that doesn't agree 100% with your viewpoint! Hilarious mate. I notice not one person has commented on the video of Mandela singing about killing whites, yet people are saying those that posted it are racist and c*nts, brilliant mongboarding!!

 

Clearly you are the only voice singing in the wilderness. Never mind. I am sure that oneday somebody will come round to your way of thinking.You just have to be patient.

 

I tell you what - you should go to London and stand on Speakers Corner. It is full of odd people spouting their views. It is always a good place for a laugh. You would fit in well there.

 

Oh by the way.Does your grubby little racist site have any views on Sharpeville? Or doesn't that matter because it was 69 blacks that were killed by the South African police. If we are going to trade website allegations , what are your views on the information on this website

 

 

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-03-08-jacques-pauw-on-vlakplaas-apartheid-assassin-dirk-coetzee/

 

... and before I go to bed for the night perhaps you could give Verbal a more considered reply than to be told that he is a lunatic. He asked some pertinent questions which deserve an answer ... and we all know that you like questions to be answered don't we.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
Clearly you are the only voice singing in the wilderness. Never mind. I am sure that oneday somebody will come round to your way of thinking.You just have to be patient.

 

I tell you what - you should go to London and stand on Speakers Corner. It is full of odd people spouting their views. It is always a good place for a laugh. You would fit in well there.

 

Oh by the way.Does your grubby little racist site have any views on Sharpeville? Or doesn't that matter because it was 69 blacks that were killed by the South African police. If we are going to trade website allegations , what are your views on the information on this website

 

 

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-03-08-jacques-pauw-on-vlakplaas-apartheid-assassin-dirk-coetzee/

 

... and before I go to bed for the night perhaps you could give Verbal a more considered reply than to be told that he is a lunatic. He asked some pertinent questions which deserve an answer ... and we all know that you like questions to be answered don't we.

 

Why do you people keep mentioning apartheid? This isn't a two wrongs making a right debate. It sit Mandela was the lovely peace loving old man or not. The facts that many of you don't want to face or admit to is that it's a case of 'or not' at least for for the first 50 odd years of his life anyway.

 

As for verbal, did you know he's a nutcase who needs to visit a therapist, how do I know? He admitted it himself on here once. So excuse me for not giving any credence to the views of a lunatic who needs therapy to help him get through the day.

 

Anyway good night pal. Still no comment on any of the Mandela isn't a lovely man stuff, but there's a surprise.

Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
Posted
Typical response. Hilarious, say something people don't like and show FACTS and abused for it.
Troll! Classic answer for those that struggle for a reasonable argument.
Verbal

Verbal

Posted
Posted
Shut up you lunatic.

 

I'm sure you're trying EVER so hard to think of an answer - so hard you've forgotten the questions. So I'll try again.

 

1. How did Mandela, from solitary confinement, the prisoner of a regime that banned even his picture being publicly seen, orchestrate a string of bombings in the 1980s?

 

2. Please give the actual quote from The Long Walk to Freedom where Mandela says he "personally signed off" on those attacks.

 

Just to give you a helping hand, try to avoid looking for answers in those sites you evidently slavishly read, like Stormfront.

Saint in Paradise

Saint in Paradise

Posted
Posted
Troll! Classic answer for those that struggle for a reasonable argument.

 

Just because you are offended doesn't mean that you are right and so therefore he must be wrong.

 

I am sick to death with the way over the top coverage of that man's death. Mind you I get annoyed

very quickly with the media vomit inducing sycophancy when any "famous" or "celebrity" kicks the bucket.

Thousands of good, decent and normal people die every day but they are ignored.

Wade Garrett

Wade Garrett

Posted
Posted
Did you know in your last 6 posts you've called someone a c*nt 3 times and someone else a pr*ck. I think you've got anger issues pal, maybe you need to see someone about it.

 

I know, it's what happens when I comment on posts from the Ku Klux Klan wing of the SWF.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted

This thread gets better and better!!No one will discuss the bombings, no one will talk about the video I posted of Mandela singing about killing whites, no one will talk about the pictures of people being necklaced. Anyone that brings it up is branded a racist, a c*nt or thick!! There are some proper nut jobs on here!!

 

head-in-the-sand.jpg

Tamesaint

Tamesaint

Posted
Posted
Why do you people keep mentioning apartheid?

 

Oh I see. We shoud judge Mandela completely out of context to his time and what was happening in his country when he was alive. It is certainly a bit of a strange view of history.

 

Your views on the second world war must be interesting. Going by your logic, that Churchill was a bit of a nutter wasn't he?? Many more Germans were killed by his actions than South Africans were killed by the ANC. Was he a war criminal?? As for that von Stauffenburg who tried to assassinate Hitler - well he was nothing but an out and out terrorist. People were nearly killed by his bomb!!!

 

This forum does come up with nonsense but writing the number of posts that you have on this thread (how many has it been ? - 50??) whilst trying to ignore apartheid is undoubtedly a prize winner.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted (edited)
Oh I see. We shoud judge Mandela completely out of context to his time and what was happening in his country when he was alive. It is certainly a bit of a strange view of history.

 

Your views on the second world war must be interesting. Going by your logic, that Churchill was a bit of a nutter wasn't he?? Many more Germans were killed by his actions than South Africans were killed by the ANC. Was he a war criminal?? As for that von Stauffenburg who tried to assassinate Hitler - well he was nothing but an out and out terrorist. People were nearly killed by his bomb!!!

 

This forum does come up with nonsense but writing the number of posts that you have on this thread (how many has it been ? - 50??) whilst trying to ignore apartheid is undoubtedly a prize winner.

 

As I said and you're failing to understand, but what can we expect from a man who claims a stamp in his passport makes him the authority on all things, in that country. it's not a case of two wrongs making a right. Apartheid was a terrible thing and a crime against humanity. However My point is and always has been that everyone is ignoring that Mandela, his wife and his party were guilty of killing and torturing numerous people over a number of years. The majority of people on here don't want to talk about it and if anyone brings it up they are called a racist or a c*nt!

 

Let's talk about why Mandela refused an offer of release from prison in 1985 in exchange for renouncing the ANC violence. Why would he do that? Seems a bit odd.

 

Cue more Racist/c*nt/troll jibes.

Edited by Turkish
Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
I'm sure you're trying EVER so hard to think of an answer - so hard you've forgotten the questions. So I'll try again.

 

1. How did Mandela, from solitary confinement, the prisoner of a regime that banned even his picture being publicly seen, orchestrate a string of bombings in the 1980s?

 

2. Please give the actual quote from The Long Walk to Freedom where Mandela says he "personally signed off" on those attacks.

 

Just to give you a helping hand, try to avoid looking for answers in those sites you evidently slavishly read, like Stormfront.

 

Except of course he wasn't in solitary confinement in the 80s, but don't let that stop you making things up you loon.

aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
As I said and you're failing to understand, but what can we expect from a man who claims a stamp in his passport makes him the authority on all things, in that country. it's not a case of two wrongs making a right. Apartheid was a terrible thing and a crime against humanity. However My point is and always has been that everyone is ignoring that Mandela, his wife and his party were guilty of killing and torturing numerous people over a number of years. The majority of people on here don't want to talk about it and if anyone brings it up they are called a racist or a c*nt!

 

Let's talk about why Mandela refused an offer of release from prison in 1985 in exchange for renouncing the ANC violence. Why would he do that? Seems a bit odd.

 

Because anyone with a brain can see the troubles of that period were completely the fault of the racist, oppressive government, not the poor sods trying to fight for freedom.

 

Many bad things have been done by good people in the past, just like in the fight against Nazis in WW2. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Maybe it would be easier for your tiny brain to comprehend if Mandela was a white English man fighting for our freedom against people of a different skin colour?

stug76

stug76

Posted
Posted

What if everyone has considered his past and concluded that overall, his contribution to mankind has been positive? That all the millions of black people that now have a significantly better outlook on life than perhaps if he hasn't have taken the actions that he had taken.

 

Maybe, people are intelligent enough to look at the whole picture rather than concentrate on point scoring and labouring a single issue in the debate? Maybe?

Tamesaint

Tamesaint

Posted
Posted
As I said and you're failing to understand, but what can we expect from a man who claims a stamp in his passport makes him the authority on all things, in that country. it's not a case of two wrongs making a right. Apartheid was a terrible thing and a crime against humanity. However My point is and always has been that everyone is ignoring that Mandela, his wife and his party were guilty of killing and torturing numerous people over a number of years. The majority of people on here don't want to talk about it and if anyone brings it up they are called a racist or a c*nt!

 

Let's talk about why Mandela refused an offer of release from prison in 1985 in exchange for renouncing the ANC violence. Why would he do that? Seems a bit odd.

 

Cue more Racist/c*nt/troll jibes.

 

 

The nearest tube to Speakers Corner is Marble Arch. It is on the Central Line. Why don't you pop along there and give the world your views ??? I am sure that if you go there for long enough you willl find a few people who will believe in what you say.

 

You will probably find that most people will laugh at you .... but then you will be used to that from your posts here on the Saints Web.

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted (edited)
Because anyone with a brain can see the troubles of that period were completely the fault of the racist, oppressive government, not the poor sods trying to fight for freedom.

 

Many bad things have been done by good people in the past, just like in the fight against Nazis in WW2. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? Maybe it would be easier for your tiny brain to comprehend if Mandela was a white English man fighting for our freedom against people of a different skin colour?

 

Yet again race gets mentioned. Seems its impossible to say he's done anything wrong without being called a racist :mcinnes:

 

Its hard for me to comprehend and call me a liberal, but I don't agree with killing and torturing innocent people and being branded a hero for it, that why.

 

What he did post 1994 should be lauded, I'm not disputing that. I'm also say why won't anyone talk about what he did before that and if you do you're called all sorts of names and accused of being racist.

Edited by Turkish

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