RIP Nelson Mandela

[Sour Mash]

He was fully justified in using violence. They tried protests and sabotage, there was no alternative.

 

I applaud him for that. If I was in his situation I would do the same. The bloke is a hero for standing up to them racist c*nts. Apartheid was one of the great evils in this world.

Do you view the IRA in the same way?

[Griffo]

Imagine for a second that an Iraqi is fed up with the British army ruining his country and oppressing his fellow countrymen so he goes and organises a load of bombings in protest in the UK which kills a load of innocent people. He then gets sent to prison for ages and in the meantime we come to understand that the Iraq campaign was totally wrong. After a couple of decades he is freed and welcomed as a hero and an example for out children to follow because he doesn't harbour any Ill will against the authorities that imprisoned him. Now how is that much different from what happened here?

 

[hypochondriac]

Well that's that's about every Western government off the list too then.

 

I wouldn't use any western government as an example to follow. They aren't being idolised and held up as shining beacons of peace though are they.

[hypochondriac]

He was fully justified in using violence. They tried protests and sabotage, there was no alternative.

 

I applaud him for that. If I was in his situation I would do the same. The bloke is a hero for standing up to them racist c*nts. Apartheid was one of the great evils in this world.

 

OK then using that logic and my example below, the Iraqi tries protest and sabotage against the British army in Iraq and gets nowhere so presumably bombing the tube would be perfectly justified and he should be applauded? How is that any different?

[Jonnyboy]

My point is that expressing regret for mass killings of innocent people doesn't absolve you of the crime or make you some sort of example for people to follow.

 

And all this coming from the guy who thought there should be no investigation into Jimmy Saviles crimes because the past is the past and the old rapist paedophile can't defend himself.

[aintforever]

OK then using that logic and my example below, the Iraqi tries protest and sabotage against the British army in Iraq and gets nowhere so presumably bombing the tube would be perfectly justified and he should be applauded? How is that any different?

 

If we were denying the Iraqi people the vote because of the colour of their skin and he was trying to change that - and succeeded in creating a peaceful, democratic Iraq then yes - he should be applauded.

 

Any blood spilt would be on the hands of the British government.

[hypochondriac]

And all this coming from the guy who thought there should be no investigation into Jimmy Saviles crimes because the past is the past and the old rapist paedophile can't defend himself.

 

My point was that the bloke was dead so there seemed little point since he couldn't be brought to justice. He still can't be and an investigation should have happened earlier. Not sure what this has to do with this discussion...

[Tamesaint]

Only superficial? How do you figure that? I wouldn't call modern day South Africa a united nation.

 

Not united? On what do you base that opinion? Have you ever been there? Ifso, I woud be genuinely interested in how you come to that conclusion.

 

I have had 2 holidays in SA and have seen a fair bit of the country. It is a young country and undoubtedly has its problems .... but name me a problem free country. When I have visited I have met a friendly, generally courteous set of people who are proud of their country and who believe in the rainbow nation concept. Their belief in their country's future is quite refreshing and they are , dare I say,a more united country than the UK atm.

 

Please share your experiences if you have visited it and have found it different. If you have not visited and are basing your judgement on the British press then I suggest that you change your newspaper.

[hypochondriac]

If we were denying the Iraqi people the vote because of the colour of their skin and he was trying to change that - and succeeded in creating a peaceful, democratic Iraq then yes - he should be applauded.

 

Any blood spilt would be on the hands of the British government.

 

But the occupying forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have committed all manner of atrocities at least comparable to apartheid south Africa in a number of cases. Have you seen the wikileaks stuff? And how does creating a peaceful democratic South Africa absolve him of his previous crimes as head of a terrorist organisation that bombed innocents?

Edited 7 December, 2013 by hypochondriac

[Sour Mash]

Not united? On what do you base that opinion? Have you ever been there? Ifso, I woud be genuinely interested in how you come to that conclusion.

 

I have had 2 holidays in SA and have seen a fair bit of the country. It is a young country and undoubtedly has its problems .... but name me a problem free country. When I have visited I have met a friendly, generally courteous set of people who are proud of their country and who believe in the rainbow nation concept. Their belief in their country's future is quite refreshing and they are , dare I say,a more united country than the UK atm.

 

Please share your experiences if you have visited it and have found it different. If you have not visited and are basing your judgement on the British press then I suggest that you change your newspaper.

I work with plenty of South Africans, regular blokes, all over here with no intention of returning home because they consider the country a mess.

[aintforever]

Do you view the IRA in the same way?

 

The people of Northern Ireland have the vote so can decide their own future, the IRA are the enemy for democracy - the opposite to Mandela.

[shurlock]

Imagine for a second that an Iraqi is fed up with the British army ruining his country and oppressing his fellow countrymen so he goes and organises a load of bombings in protest in the UK which kills a load of innocent people. He then gets sent to prison for ages and in the meantime we come to understand that the Iraq campaign was totally wrong. After a couple of decades he is freed and welcomed as a hero and an example for out children to follow because he doesn't harbour any Ill will against the authorities that imprisoned him. Now how is that much different from what happened here?

 

You taking over the midnight shift from the gift that keeps on giving Turkish?

 

Has the British army instituted apartheid in Iraq? Systemic discrimination, repression and segregation?

[aintforever]

But the occupying forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have committed all manner of atrocities at least comparable to apartheid south Africa in a number of cases. Have you seen the wikileaks stuff? And how does creating a peaceful democratic South Africa absolve him of his previous crimes as head of a terrorist organisation that bombed innocents?

 

I don't doubt that but the forces are there to help bring security and democracy. If they were there to oppress the people and take away their freedom you might have a point.

[hypochondriac]

You taking over the midnight shift from the gift that keeps on giving Turkish?

 

Has the British army instituted apartheid in Iraq? Systemic discrimination, repression and segregation?

 

No just indiscriminate killing of innocent civillians and families (not to mention the drone strikes). So not as bad at all. oh...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike

 

http://www.britisharmykillings.org.uk/page/113/The-Issuess

[hypochondriac]

I don't doubt that but the forces are there to help bring security and democracy. If they were there to oppress the people and take away their freedom you might have a point.

 

It very much depends from whose perspective you are viewing that from doesnt it:

 

[shurlock]

No just indiscriminate killing of innocent civillians and families (not to mention the drone strikes). So not as bad at all. oh...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike

 

http://www.britisharmykillings.org.uk/page/113/The-Issuess

 

So a systemic and deliberate attempt to subjugate an entire people based on something as arbitrary as the colour of their skin?

 

Didn't think so....

[hypochondriac]

So a systemic and deliberate attempt to subjugate an entire people based on something as arbitrary as the colour of their skin?

 

Didn't think so....

 

Ok then so in that scenario according to you mass killing of innocent people is justified. Are there an other crimes that are committed where this sort of 'protest' is acceptable?

[shurlock]

Ok then so in that scenario according to you mass killing of innocent people is justified. Are there an other crimes that are committed where this sort of 'protest' is acceptable?

 

Perhaps the Luton marches against returning soldiers is more your thing...

[hypochondriac]

I think I get it.

 

Racist governments opressing your people = mass killings of innocent people in protest OK if you express regret afterwards. Become a reformer and stand for peace and you will be lauded and become an icon for people to look up to.

 

Unwanted occupying army killing defenceless civillians amongst a number of other atrocities = mass killings of innocent people in a protest that you believe to be justified is absolutely not allowed. You are subhuman scum who should be villified. Death penalty is too good for you. Even if you subsequently express regret you should never be looked up to or followed as an example.

Edited 7 December, 2013 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Perhaps the Luton marches against returning soldiers is more your thing...

 

Oh so now I hate the British army and am an extremist muslim? I wasn't aware!

[Sour Mash]

The people of Northern Ireland have the vote so can decide their own future, the IRA are the enemy for democracy - the opposite to Mandela.

But there were plenty of unfair electoral practices in Northern Ireland which gave Catholics the feeling they were not fairly represented in the democratic process of their country, that's the same principle as you apply to Mandela.

[shurlock]

Oh so now I hate the British army and am an extremist muslim? I wasn't aware!

 

You're against the killing of defenseless, innocent civilians and believe Iraq is no different from South Africa?

 

You believe in nonviolence?

 

Enlighten me....

[hypochondriac]

But there were plenty of unfair electoral practices in Northern Ireland which gave Catholics the feeling they were not fairly represented in the democratic process of their country, that's the same principle as you apply to Mandela.

 

It's all to do with the racism thing. Because we live in enlightened times now and we know how bad racism is, all sorts of terrible things done to fight racism are sort of OK now because, you know, racism is awful. Or something like that...

[hypochondriac]

You're against the killing of defenseless, innocent civilians

 

Correct. Arent you?

 

and believe Iraq is no different from South Africa?

There are differences. There are also some similarities and I can certainly see how from the perspective of am Iraqi it would feel very similar in certain circumstances.

 

You believe in nonviolence?

 

Enlighten me....

 

That depends. I do believe that in the majority of cases it is totally unjustified to kill innocent people in a protest. I bet for example the families of those who were killed by the ANC had a different perspective on Nelson Mandela. I expect the elder Nelson Mandela would also agree that his actions when he was younger were totally wrong. As I said though, simply expressing regret does not absolve him of his crimes.

[shurlock]

It's all to do with the racism thing. Because we live in enlightened times now and we know how bad racism is, all sorts of terrible things done to fight racism are sort of OK now because, you know, racism is awful. Or something like that...

 

Not really -

 

Discrimination was factually worse in SA than NI - the basis of discrimination, religious or racial, is a second order point.

 

That doesn't underplay or discount what happened to Catholics in NI but if you look across education, employment outcomes etc, there remains a big difference between the two experiences.

[hypochondriac]

Not really -

 

Discrimination was factually worse in SA than NI - the basis of discrimination, religious or racial, is a second order point.

 

That doesn't underplay or discount what happened to Catholics in NI but if you look across education, employment outcomes etc, there remains a big difference between the two experiences.

 

So where is the cutoff point? At what level of discrimination is bombing innocents abhorrent and what level is it acceptable?

[Bearsy]

So where is the cutoff point? At what level of discrimination is bombing innocents abhorrent and what level is it acceptable?

 

I find it v.hard to believe a resolution couldn't be found without resorting to violence. What i would've done if I was Mandela is I would've gone to the BNP & said "Listen bros, how bout this for a compromise yeah? You let us use ur post offices & empregnate ur daughters, and in return, we'll try to be less blick."

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Well I don't suppose many will dispute that he was both a remarkable Human Being and a important political figure, I certainly won't. But he passed away last Thursday and the fact that he is still dead remains the lead story on the BBC news two days later. Meanwhile thousands of people in this country have had their homes destroyed, or badly damaged, in the flooding but their suffering is considered to be of lesser importance by those who set the news agenda here.

 

Perhaps we are just fated to live in what are exceptionally dull times, but shouldn't the news concentrate more on the new and events that effect our people directly?

Edited 7 December, 2013 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Turkish]

I notice that rather than addressing any of the points that differ from your own you are just going around calling everyone thick. That's interesting behaviour.

 

Is that way of the mongboard I'm afraid. Challenge their opinions and views and present them with a few challenging questions and they resort to calling people thick and trying to patronise. If you don't toe the party line and have the same view as them you're thick/troll/racist etc.

 

The most interesting thing is Mandela went to great lengths to apologies for his behaviour and actions, he recognised he was flawed and had made huge mistakes, yet it seems I anyone mentions it or dares to question the media view that he was a lovable, cuddly old man who did nothing but bring peace to a nation ripped apart then woe betide you.

Edited 7 December, 2013 by Turkish

[Turkish]

Not united? On what do you base that opinion? Have you ever been there? Ifso, I woud be genuinely interested in how you come to that conclusion.

 

I have had 2 holidays in SA and have seen a fair bit of the country. It is a young country and undoubtedly has its problems .... but name me a problem free country. When I have visited I have met a friendly, generally courteous set of people who are proud of their country and who believe in the rainbow nation concept. Their belief in their country's future is quite refreshing and they are , dare I say,a more united country than the UK atm.

 

Please share your experiences if you have visited it and have found it different. If you have not visited and are basing your judgement on the British press then I suggest that you change your newspaper.

 

And we all know to get a rounded and realistic view of a country is to go on a 2 week holiday there, staying in nice hotels, going on a few organised trips to tourists destinations in nice coaches or jeeps and speak to a handful of locals then waxing lyrical about what lovely, friendly people they are.

[Tamesaint]

I work with plenty of South Africans, regular blokes, all over here with no intention of returning home because they consider the country a mess.

 

So in other words , you have never been there but are quite happy to pass judgement on the place. Hmmmm. Someone may say that you don't know what youare talking about.

[Turkish]

So in other words , you have never been there but are quite happy to pass judgement on the place. Hmmmm. Someone may say that you don't know what youare talking about.

 

Did you do a safari or the wine route BTW? Quite fancy them myself.

[Tamesaint]

And we all know to get a rounded and realistic view of a country is to go on a 2 week holiday there, staying in nice hotels, going on a few organised trips to tourists destinations in nice coaches or jeeps and speak to a handful of locals then waxing lyrical about what lovely, friendly people they are.

 

Speak for yourself mate. We do different sort of holidays ... or would knowing what you talk about be such a change for you that you wouldn't be able to cope?

[Turkish]

Speak for yourself mate. We do different sort of holidays ... or would knowing what you talk about be such a change for you that you wouldn't be able to cope?

 

So what did you do then? Did you travel round for a couple of years living out of back pack, spending time living in the cities and shanty towns, use public transport, mixing day in day out with the locals. Tell us about it and why going on holiday there makes you an expert.

[CB Fry]

So what did you do then? Did you travel round for a couple of years living out of back pack, spending time living in the cities and shanty towns, use public transport, mixing day in day out with the locals. Tell us about it and why going on holiday there makes you an expert.

 

John Simpson was on the radio yesterday talking about Mandela's time as president not being particularly successful and how SA remains a country with massive social problems and huge inequality.

 

But he's only been the BBC Foreign Affairs expert for thirty odd years. He hasn't been on that backpacking trip with Tamesaint so what the hell does he know?

[Tamesaint]

So what did you do then? Did you travel round for a couple of years living out of back pack, spending time living in the cities and shanty towns, use public transport, mixing day in day out with the locals. Tell us about it and why going on holiday there makes you an expert.

 

So unless I lived in a shanty town I know nothing about the place?? Its funny, my passport has got a couple of SA entry and exit stamps, we travelled independently around the country and visited so many places but apparently I would know more about the country by talking to Sour Mush and Turkish.

 

Who needs to travel aanywhere if you have Turkish's and Sour Mush's prejudices.

[Turkish]

So unless I lived in a shanty town I know nothing about the place?? Its funny, my passport has got a couple of SA entry and exit stamps, we travelled independently around the country and visited so many places but apparently I would know more about the country by talking to Sour Mush and Turkish.

 

Who needs to travel aanywhere if you have Turkish's and Sour Mush's prejudices.

 

 

Why won't you tell us what you did? I've been on holiday in Africa too, many times in fact to all four corners of the continent, but I'm not claiming to be an expert because of it. Tell us what you did any why the two stamps you have in your passport make you so knowledgable.

 

And there you go again going on about prejudice, the standard cop out when asked a difficult question.

Edited 7 December, 2013 by Turkish

[Sour Mash]

So in other words , you have never been there but are quite happy to pass judgement on the place. Hmmmm. Someone may say that you don't know what youare talking about.

Yeah, you're probably right mate, all those people I've worked with and spoken to were probably making things up. Glad you enjoyed your hols though.

[Sour Mash]

So unless I lived in a shanty town I know nothing about the place?? Its funny, my passport has got a couple of SA entry and exit stamps, we travelled independently around the country and visited so many places but apparently I would know more about the country by talking to Sour Mush and Turkish.

 

Who needs to travel aanywhere if you have Turkish's and Sour Mush's prejudices.

What are my prejudices exactly? I know loads of people that have been there and had a great holiday, I'd love to visit it myself, I'm simply saying what all the South Africans (I work with loads), say about the country they left behind.

[Tamesaint]

John Simpson was on the radio yesterday talking about Mandela's time as president not being particularly successful and how SA remains a country with massive social problems and huge inequality.

 

But he's only been the BBC Foreign Affairs expert for thirty odd years. He hasn't been on that backpacking trip with Tamesaint so what the hell does he know?

 

Reading and comprehension clearly not your strong point today CB.

 

You claim not to understand when I wrote "the country undoubtedly has its problems." Never mind.

[Turkish]

Reading and comprehension clearly not your strong point today CB.

 

You claim not to understand when I wrote "the country undoubtedly has its problems." Never mind.

 

But you know all there is too know, far more than anyone because you've got two stamps in your passport. Tell us what you did, your experiences, what you saw and learnt.

[CB Fry]

Reading and comprehension clearly not your strong point today CB.

 

You claim not to understand when I wrote "the country undoubtedly has its problems." Never mind.

 

Says the man screaming "prejudice" at anyone else articulating what some of those problems might be.

 

Just you allowed to mention problems, then.

 

But I do enjoy my geo-political analysis sponsored by Thomas Cook, so well done.

[Tamesaint]

What are my prejudices exactly? I know loads of people that have been there and had a great holiday, I'd love to visit it myself, I'm simply saying what all the South Africans (I work with loads), say about the country they left behind.

 

You observed that the country was not united. My view having visited the place is that this is not the case. People we spoke to were clearly proud of their country and the concept of a "rainbow nation" trying to make a place for itself in the world.

 

I guess that people who have left the country and have made their minds up that the place is going to the dogs are not going to sign its praises. The people they have left behind do seem to have a national spirit.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You don't have to had physically visited a place to know something about it - but it can't hurt can it?

 

You don't have to know a foreigner to understand something of their culture - but that too might be advantageous.

 

Is it possible that those who choose to emigrate from their homeland might seek to justify that decision by highlighting its problems?

 

Is it entirely fair to criticize someone for claiming to be a 'expert' when they have claimed no such thing?

[Tamesaint]

Says the man screaming "prejudice" at anyone else articulating what some of those problems might be.

 

Just you allowed to mention problems, then.

 

But I do enjoy my geo-political analysis sponsored by Thomas Cook, so well done.

 

What on earth are you on about?

[Batman]

I know a few South Africans.

None of them wish to go home. ever again (other than for visiting family and basically being a tourist)

[Tamesaint]

Why won't you tell us what you did? I've been on holiday in Africa too, many times in fact to all four corners of the continent, but I'm not claiming to be an expert because of it. Tell us what you did any why the two stamps you have in your passport make you so knowledgable.

 

And there you go again going on about prejudice, the standard cop out when asked a difficult question.

 

Where did I claim to be an expert? Pergaps having been there I do know a little bit more than people who have not been there.

 

And talking of answering difficut questions, when are you going to answer Shurlock's last night?

[Turkish]

Where did I claim to be an expert? Pergaps having been there I do know a little bit more than people who have not been there.

 

And talking of answering difficut questions, when are you going to answer Shurlock's last night?

 

Banging on about your two passport stamps, that you visited loads of places but won't tell us where or how, that you know so much more than anyone because you've been on holiday there and if anyone disagreed they were prejudice. That's where. Despite this giving you an encyclopedic knowledge of the country and having a wonderful time there you seem reluctant to share where you went, how and what you saw and for how long.

 

What question was this? Would this be where Shurlock started making things up and claiming I supported apartheid?

[CB Fry]

What on earth are you on about?

 

People say pretty innocuous statements like SA is not a united country - I'd call that a problem - and you scream prejudice because they haven't been on the same holiday as you. That's what I'm on about. All on this thread.

 

Hope you had a lovely holiday.

[Turkish]

People say pretty innocuous statements like SA is not a united country - I'd call that a problem - and you scream prejudice because they haven't been on the same holiday as you. That's what I'm on about. All on this thread.

 

Hope you had a lovely holiday.

 

I also enjoyed the comment that I'd you disagreed with him and hadn't been on his holiday then you must have got your opinion out of the newspaper. Quite brilliant stuff.