RIP Nelson Mandela

[pap]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/david-cameron-didnt-produce-hang-mandela-posters-during-the

 

Keep up trousers. The article I linked said that Cameron was unlikely to have been involved. Apparently, he wasn't that political back in the day.

[Saint_clark]

Unauthorised by whom?

 

On your definition of terrorism the French resistance against the Nazis were terrorists, as was Stauffenberg in his attempt to murder Hitler, as were the Italian citizens wo strung up Mussolioni and his wife, as were the mass protesters who sparked the rebellion against Ceausecu, as were the killers of Gaddafi.

 

In fact, Gaddafi himself used exactly the definition you've just given to attack the rebellion against him. As did Hitler after the Stauffenberg plot - and as he did repeatedly in the murderous reprisals he ordered against French, Dutch and Czech resistance to Nazism.

 

So to repeat: unauthorised by whom?

 

Fair enough, I picked a poor choice of words. But the murder of innocents in the name of some higher cause is never justified.

[badgerx16]

Trousers - fair enough, my quote is from this Independent article, ( http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/from-terrorist-to-tea-with-the-queen-1327902.html ). You would think they would have checked their facts.

[Sour Mash]

I wonder what state SA would be in now if Mandela had been executed.

Probably little different to how it is today.

[buctootim]

Fair enough, I picked a poor choice of words. But the murder of innocents in the name of some higher cause is never justified.

 

The fire bombing of Dresden? the carpet bombing of Cologne? Nagasaki / Hiroshima or is it different when we do it?

Edited 6 December, 2013 by buctootim

[trousers]

Keep up trousers.

 

I always was a slow starter

 

The article I linked said that Cameron was unlikely to have been involved. Apparently, he wasn't that political back in the day.

 

Try telling that to the masses in Twitter and Facebook land whose brains have been washed to believe the opposite...

Edited 6 December, 2013 by trousers

[Matthew Le God]

His cause was extremely good, but the media have completely glossed over his dark side. Mandela co-founded a terrorist group that bombed, land-mined, tortured and murdered a lot of people.

Edited 6 December, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[JackFrost]

So did the Dam Busters crews.

 

Your actually comparing soldiers under strict orders in world war 2, to a leader of a militant wing that commanded his militia to deliberately target civilians by blowing up e.g. restaurants/cinemas? On over 150 separate occasions?

 

Did Mandela's struggle also justify him supporting and diplomatically intervening on behalf of brutal dictators like Abacha and Gaddafi after he became president? (Gaddafi bankrolled that election campaign by the way)

 

I'm not denying that Mandela did an extraordinary amount of good in South Africa and through the world for racial equality and standing up for the human rights of the oppressed South Africans, but he isn't the perfect angel that the media are portraying him to be.

 

His cause was extremely good, but the media have completely glossed over his dark side. Mandela co-founded a terrorist group that bombed, land-mined, tortured and murdered a lot of people.

 

Indeed

 

Interestingly, the U.S. only considered him to be no longer a terrorist 5 years ago http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7484517.stm

[Tokyo-Saint]

To be fair, I think the US probably have half of us down as being terrorists. Definitely Pap.

[buctootim]

Your actually comparing soldiers under strict orders in world war 2, to a leader of a militant wing that commanded his militia to deliberately target civilians by blowing up e.g. restaurants/cinemas? On over 150 separate occasions?

 

Why not? we blew up restaurants and and cinemas on thousands of occasions. Dresden left 25,000 dead in one night - an attack on a town with no military or industrial significance. If its possible to justify that attack then its possible to justify the ANC attacks - grossly abhorrent though they both were.

 

Edited 6 December, 2013 by buctootim

[Turkish]

His cause was extremely good, but the media have completely glossed over his dark side. Mandela co-founded a terrorist group that bombed, land-mined, tortured and murdered a lot of people.

 

DOnt worry about that mate, Shurlock has said that's fine and totally justified because the government in South Africa was corrupt.

[buctootim]

To be fair, I think the US probably have half of us down as being terrorists. Definitely Pap.

 

You're probably only a terrorist from the waist down.

[Turkish]

Odd you single out the death of white south Africans in the struggles without acknowledging the other side of the balance sheet which towered in comparison.

 

Oh yeh I remember because some were 'terrorists'

 

 

And there was me thinking this was a thread about Nelson Madela, a man who has been lauded as a hero and inspiration but was also a man who was responsible for the death of white South Africans!! Well done on the excellent work of playing that card, i'm amazed it took you until page 2 to come up with that. Still you're on record as justifying murder of innocent people so i'd think twice about taking the moral high ground pal.

[shurlock]

DOnt worry about that mate, Shurlock has said that's fine and totally justified because the government in South Africa was corrupt.

 

If only the apartheid government had the equivalent of a fan on the board, huh?

 

Did I say corrupt? What credible, institutional mechanisms existed for black SAs to effect change?

[Turkish]

If only the apartheid government had the equivalent of a fan on the board, huh?

Did I say corrupt? What credible, institutional mechanisms existed for black SAs to effect change?

 

What on earth are you banging on about now?

[shurlock]

What on earth are you banging on about now?

 

What institutional channels existed for black SAs to change the status quo - illuminate things for me, sunshine...

[Turkish]

What institutional channels existed for black SAs to change things - illuminate things for me, sunshine...

 

what does that have to do with you justifying the murder of innocent people?

[shurlock]

what does that have to do with you justifying the murder of innocent people?

 

Did I justify the murder of innocents anymore than you?

[Hatch]

You would love South Africa House today Turkish, lots of people turning up to lay flowers in respect,

 

but, they just have to delay and make sure the TV cameras are on them before doing so.

 

It's quite sickening frankly.

[solentstars]

What institutional channels existed for black SAs to change the status quo - illuminate things for me, sunshine...

 

Stop feeding the troll he will never answer your question,he will just ask another stupid question. The guys a Muppet. Yes already ruined this thread with his child like behavior.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Turkish]

Did I justify the murder of innocents anymore than you?

 

you seem to be making things up now pal. Where have i even suggested that i agreed with aparthied or the political system in South Africa back then or that murdering innocent people was justifiable? Can you show me as this seems to be purely an invention of your imagination. Whereas your comment was this

 

"That the UK is well-governed with institutionalised spaces for dissent, making violence -or extralegal methods- much harder to justify whereas South Africa under apartheid was the polar opposite."

 

SO if you can provide me with the quote where i justifed the murder of innocents that would be greatly appreciated. Good luck.

Edited 6 December, 2013 by Turkish

[Turkish]

You would love South Africa House today Turkish, lots of people turning up to lay flowers in respect,

 

but, they just have to delay and make sure the TV cameras are on them before doing so.

 

It's quite sickening frankly.

 

To be fair, if i was living in South Africa i'd feel diferently about it. Its the faux despair of people that are calling him a hero an inspiration who has inspired them to do absoutely FA that i cant be doing with.

[shurlock]

you seem to be making things up now pal. Where have i even suggested that i agreed with aparthied or the political system in South Africa back then? Can you show me as this seems to be purely an invention of your imagination. Whereas your comment was this

 

"That the UK is well-governed with institutionalised spaces for dissent, making violence -or extralegal methods- much harder to justify whereas South Africa under apartheid was the polar opposite."

 

SO if you can provide me with the quote where i justifed the murder of innocents that would be greatly appreciated. Good luck.

 

Was simply pointing out the differences between N. Ireland and South Africa.

 

And my point was about the use of 'unauthorized', political violence - not the targeting or murder of ordinary civilians which I never addressed. They're very different points, so don't blur them.

 

Perhaps you should stick to your intimate knowledge of men's fragrances.

[Turkish]

Was simply pointing out the differences between N. Ireland and South Africa.

 

And my point was about the use of 'unauthorized', political violence - not the targeting of ordinary civilians which I never addressed. They're very different points, so don't blur them.

 

Perhaps you should stick to your intimate knowledge of men's fragrances.

 

and my point was that both Gerry Adams and Nelson Madella were guilty of killing innocent people and also helped the peace process in their countries. Yet Mandela is being hailed as an inspiration and hero. Gerry Adams wont be. So you admit that you totally made up that i had justified the killing of innocent people?

 

Mandela himself made numerous apologies and spoke of his regret at his actions, he admitted he was flawed and that the media image of this dear, lovable old man wasnt always correct and that he himself had been vicious and flawed in the past. He admitted it, it's a shame other cant when its mentioned and ccuse those that do of being racist and aparthied supporters. Like i said at the start, a desperation to appear cool and display what a lovely person they are.

Edited 6 December, 2013 by Turkish

[Lord Duckhunter]

The difference between Adams and his henchmen and Mandela is very very simple. Adams lived in a democracy, FFS his mob even had MP's elected. Adams could have taken the Alex Salmond route and used a democratic mandate to try and change things.

 

What choice did the ANC have?

 

The difference that needs pointing out is the difference between The UK & SA at that time .

[Turkish]

The difference between Adams and his henchmen and Mandela is very very simple. Adams lived in a democracy, FFS his mob even had MP's elected. Adams could have taken the Alex Salmond route and used a democratic mandate to try and change things.

 

What choice did the ANC have?

 

The difference that needs pointing out is the difference between The UK & SA at that time .

 

Not quite sure how that justifies killing innocent people though. Yes there were difference, but the bottom line is they've both done the same thing.

[Matthew Le God]

What choice did the ANC have?

 

Resistance in the form of sabotage against an oppressive system by taking out communication links, transport, etc etc. Not resorting to murder, torture, land-mine campaigns, bombings etc.

[Noodles34]

A typical over the top reaction of faux grief. It's never good when someone dies but are you saying that you are genuinely surprised and upset about it? I keep reading he was an inspiration, what did he inspire you to do? Tell us what things Madela did that made a difference to your life and how he impacted you. Tell us about your plans to fly to South Africa to attend the funeral.

 

It does make me laugh how some on here are outraged by a couple of comments on here about a 95 year old bloke who has been ill for years and most people have never even been in the same country has dying, yet when some on here was claiming they were delighted when Thatcher died and celebrating the news no one batted an eyelid.

 

It's not about Mandela's death, it was about the sneering comment about Doreen Lawrence. Unnecessary but obviously he has an agenda that's based the glorification of a black boys murder by a bunch of south east London thugs.

[saintsdan]

Plenty.

 

That the UK is well-governed with institutionalised spaces for dissent, making violence -or extralegal methods- much harder to justify whereas South Africa under apartheid was the polar opposite.

 

That's only a start.

 

Really? Without wanting to derail this thread from the tributes being paid to Nelson Mandela, you might want to do some reading about the Northern Ireland civil rights movement in the 1960s and the actions of the Stormont government and RUC (police).

[Bearsy]

"Was Nelson Mandela in prison?" © my gf

[Tokyo-Saint]

Did you tell her to watch Shawshank bear?

[Bearsy]

Her favourite movie is the green mile (ffs)

 

It was the shocked expression on her face when learning that pope mandela is ex con, that really made me lol. "OMG, was Nelson Mandela in prison?"

[JN9]

"Was Nelson Mandela in prison?" © my gf

 

"I thought Nelson Mandela was already dead!" © my mates (thank god) misses

[Hatch]

He did build DelBoy and Rodneys flat , so he did do some good.

[View From The Top]

What did he inspire you to do?

 

He inspired me to campaign outside SA House with others involved in the anti-apartheid movement. He inspired me to believe that hate and prejudice could be overcome.

[JN9]

He did build DelBoy and Rodneys flat , so he did do some good.

 

Thats ridiculous... He didn't build it, he was well too busy.

 

I thought it was his house and he just let them live there. Probably for a very decent rate if he really was as nice as everyone (ok, perhaps not according to this thread) says he was...

[Halo Stickman]

Ever since the dawn of time – or was it the dawn of man, or the dawn of religion, or the dawn of the Enlightenment, or the dawn of whatever – people have sat astride their metaphorical high horse claiming the metaphorical moral high ground; often whilst impaling their opponents on spikes, burning them on stakes, blowing them up with bombs, or by taking their lives, or liberty, in some other more ‘civilised’ way.

 

SW forum members, terrorists, freedom fighters, apartheid governments, non-apartheid governments, law-makers, law-changers, we all have different morals; but who decides where the moral high ground lies? Don't we all just choose its whereabouts to suit ourselves and our circumstances at any given time?

 

RIP Mandela and all the innocent victims of apartheid and of terrorism

[View From The Top]

Exactly that. What is the difference between Gerry Adams and Mandela?

 

Good grief.

[View From The Top]

Fair enough, I picked a poor choice of words. But the murder of innocents in the name of some higher cause is never justified.

 

Really? When every democratic vehicle is removed then the taking up of arms is all that is left.

 

Sharpville in the 60s and Soweto in the 70s was State sponsored terror. The fought back with the only thing they had left.

[aintforever]

Fair enough, I picked a poor choice of words. But the murder of innocents in the name of some higher cause is never justified.

 

In your opinion. I think it was completely justified.

[dubai_phil]

Man is born so that he may die.

 

God bless Mandela for leaving a legacy and a memory that will never be forgotten.

 

He inspired so many and changed the world.

 

If only others could have achieved so much in their lives.

 

An inspiration to us all to live our lives to try and make a difference.

[Bearsy]

In your opinion. I think it was completely justified.

 

i guess it depends if you're on the right end of it. If for example it came out that murdering me would cure male pattern baldness or whatever, i don't think i would be down with it. F*ck the greater good! On the other hand, if it were a perfect stranger in South Africa getting murdered then you know, I would have to think about it. I'm ok for now, but sometimes I look at my dad's hairline and it just makes you think.

[Hamilton Saint]

Proud to recall that Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney (who was generally a supporter of Thatcher's economic ideas), vigorously opposed apartheid in South Africa and took the lead amongst Commonwealth leaders in pushing sanctions - disagreeing strongly with Margaret Thatcher on that issue. Mandela never forgot Mulroney's support on this crucial matter.

[Bearsy]

Man is born so that he may die.

 

God bless Mandela for leaving a legacy and a memory that will never be forgotten.

 

He inspired so many and changed the world.

 

If only others could have achieved so much in their lives.

 

An inspiration to us all to live our lives to try and make a difference.

 

you could have a career at clinton cards if you ever come home, phil.

[trousers]

Proud to recall that Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney (who was generally a supporter of Thatcher's economic ideas), vigorously opposed apartheid in South Africa and took the lead amongst Commonwealth leaders in pushing sanctions - disagreeing strongly with Margaret Thatcher on that issue. Mandela never forgot Mulroney's support on this crucial matter.

 

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=368488&sn=Detail

[Griffo]

Just seen that we're having a minutes applause for him before the game on Saturday. Now that is taking it too far.

[whelk]

Clapping is so pathetic. Silence is so much more dignified although not sure warranted in this case anyway

[RonManager]

Just seen that we're having a minutes applause for him before the game on Saturday. Now that is taking it too far.

 

Yeah I know. It's not like he's even going to hear it.

[Hamilton Saint]

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=368488&sn=Detail

 

Yes, she opposed apartheid; but she also opposed sanctions.

[Griffo]

Yeah I know. It's not like he's even going to hear it.

 

But in all seriousness how many things do we need minutes silences/applause for? It's getting like Liverpool-style grief now. What's it got to football, Southampton FC or anything? If people are affected by it and want to pay their respects then they can do it privately. I'll be spending a couple minutes extra in the pub to avoid this circus show.