Jonnyboy Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 you are a racist ****ing *****, quite obvious why you are glad to see Mandela dead I guess. Tell us something we didn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 (edited) A great man to many....RIP. but people should not be scared to point out that he was a terrorist. He was. but he became a massive figure in the world. I wonder what direction South Africa will go. As i get the impression it is in a sorry state ATM Edited 6 December, 2013 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 I recognise Mandelas significant positive impact on history and civil rights, but I am not going to mourn him. He was a terrorist. Just like Gerry Adams, MartinMcGuinness, Bobby Sands, etc.. In what way was Mandela a terrorist? Please explain rather than sticking a label on and hoping that's sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 In what way was Mandela a terrorist? Please explain rather than sticking a label on and hoping that's sufficient. because he used violence to further his subversive political aim....rightly or wrongly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 In what way was Mandela a terrorist? Please explain rather than sticking a label on and hoping that's sufficient. Terrorism by definition - "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Terrorism by definition - "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." So the English Civil war - parliament against the Monarchy was terrorism. I see. Don't be offended if I disregard you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Terrorism by definition - "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." And what was official and authorised was apartheid and repression. Hiding behind the cloak of legality doesn't make something moral or right. That's a schoolboy error in jurisprudential terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 So the English Civil war - parliament against the Monarchy was terrorism. I see. Don't be offended if I disregard you. yes, they were even animal rights groups that use violence to further their beliefs are terrorists in the eyes of the law. Like I said, there is no shame or wrong doing in admitting what he was. It made him the man he became Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 I recognise Mandelas significant positive impact on history and civil rights, but I am not going to mourn him. He was a terrorist. Just like Gerry Adams, MartinMcGuinness, Bobby Sands, etc.. Wouldnt like to be one of the few white SA farmers left after today. Theres a body of thought that asserts his continuing existence was the sole reason they havent been ethnically cleansed by the extreme elements of the ANC. Likewise. The concern now is that his inspiration will create an enduring change of attitudes in South Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 I presume the death of Gerry Adams will be treated with similar outpouring of grief. What a great guy hey, brought peace to Ireland. A hero, an inspiration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 yes, they were even animal rights groups that use violence to further their beliefs are terrorists in the eyes of the law. Like I said, there is no shame or wrong doing in admitting what he was. It made him the man he became The law isn't morality. The Nazis had law just as every other appalling dictatorship has done. So if white farmers fought back against Mugabe -seemingly everyone's favourite cause on here- wouldn't they too be terrorists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 In what way was Mandela a terrorist? Please explain rather than sticking a label on and hoping that's sufficient. Didn't Mandela admit that he "signed off" the Church Street bombing in his book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 The law isn't morality. The Nazis had law just as every other appalling dictatorship has done. So if white farmers fought back against Mugabe, wouldn't they too be terrorists? people who use violence to further their aims against the state are terrorist in the eyes of those who set the law. don't be offended to admit he was one. I doubt he was I am not too sure why people here are so desperate to erase that from history. I bet he was proud of what he done that ultimately, brought change and made him the (without question) world icon he became Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 The law isn't morality. The Nazis had law just as every other appalling dictatorship has done. So if white farmers fought back against Mugabe -seemingly everyone's favourite cause on here- wouldn't they too be terrorists? If they were involved in the bombing of public places containing innocent people, women, children etc, then they would also be terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 people who use violence to further their aims against the state are terrorist in the eyes of those who set the law. don't be offended to admit he was one. I doubt he was I am not too sure why people here are so desperate to erase that from history. I bet he was proud of what he done that ultimately, brought change and made him the (without question) world icon he became Its a complicated moral issue. Some security forces who infiltrate terror groups need to take part in terrorist acts to maintain credibility. Some leaders who want a political solution accept some violent acts in order to control the headbangers and keep the political push going. Neither are easy calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 people who use violence to further their aims against the state are terrorist in the eyes of those who set the law. don't be offended to admit he was one. I doubt he was I am not too sure why people here are so desperate to erase that from history. I bet he was proud of what he done that ultimately, brought change and made him the (without question) world icon he became Am not offended by it at all - just saying there are helmets on here who think the terrorism label carries some extra force in an argument when it may have none whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Its a complicated moral issue. Some security forces who infiltrate terror groups need to take part in terrorist acts to maintain credibility. Some leaders who want a political solution accept some violent acts in order to control the headbangers and keep the political push going. Neither are easy calls. it really isnt. he was. by definition a terrorist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Am not offended by it at all - just saying there are helmets on here who think the terrorism label carries some extra force in an argument when it may have none whatsoever. He was on the US terror list until 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 I presume the death of Gerry Adams will be treated with similar outpouring of grief. What a great guy hey, brought peace to Ireland. A hero, an inspiration. Exactly that. What is the difference between Gerry Adams and Mandela? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Okay. Thats makes two decorated soldiers I know terrorists also jesus. unless the conflict they were fighting in was not sanctioned by their state and/or had UN coverage, then yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Terrorism by definition - "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." Unauthorised by whom? On your definition of terrorism the French resistance against the Nazis were terrorists, as was Stauffenberg in his attempt to murder Hitler, as were the Italian citizens wo strung up Mussolioni and his wife, as were the mass protesters who sparked the rebellion against Ceausecu, as were the killers of Gaddafi. In fact, Gaddafi himself used exactly the definition you've just given to attack the rebellion against him. As did Hitler after the Stauffenberg plot - and as he did repeatedly in the murderous reprisals he ordered against French, Dutch and Czech resistance to Nazism. So to repeat: unauthorised by whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 It wasnt. They infiltrate terrorist cells and took part in terrorist acts. You've said clearly they were terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 It wasnt. They infiltrate terrorist cells and took part in terrorist acts. You've said clearly they were terrorists. jesus christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 jesus christ. Struggling with the flawed logic of your own beliefs Jamie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Unauthorised by whom? On your definition of terrorism the French resistance against the Nazis were terrorists, as was Stauffenberg in his attempt to murder Hitler, as were the Italian citizens wo strung up Mussolioni and his wife, as were the mass protesters who sparked the rebellion against Ceausecu, as were the killers of Gaddafi. In fact, Gaddafi himself used exactly the definition you've just given to attack the rebellion against him. As did Hitler after the Stauffenberg plot - and as he did repeatedly in the murderous reprisals he ordered against French, Dutch and Czech resistance to Nazism. So to repeat: unauthorised by whom? Was this guy Mussolioni or Hitler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 (edited) Struggling with the flawed logic of your own beliefs Jamie? no mate. I used to be part of MOD security briefing teams. I am fully aware of the definition of a terrorist. Mandela was infact, an example of one we used as the young lads today, would not look at him as such. people working for say, UKPLC and purposely being ordered to get into a terrorist cell are NOT doing it to further their own ideology, religious and/or political aims we are going round in circles, in the eyes of the worlds law, mandela was a terrorist. I suspect he is proud of his past. as said, it brought him to the man he became. Edited 6 December, 2013 by Batman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 What is the difference between Gerry Adams and Mandela? Can't believe how ignorant some people are on this forum. The one with the grey hair is adams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Exactly that. What is the difference between Gerry Adams and Mandela? It is obviously a big grey area but a big difference is that the IRA were free to use political means to further their cause but chose violence. The Black people in South Africa did not have that option. Mandela was a great man and his use of violence was completely vindicated IMO. The IRA probably had a just cause but they had the ability to use peaceful ways to achieve their aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Exactly that. What is the difference between Gerry Adams and Mandela? Plenty. That the UK is well-governed with institutionalised spaces for dissent, making violence -or extralegal methods- much harder to justify whereas South Africa under apartheid was the polar opposite. That's only a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Exactly that. What is the difference between Gerry Adams and Mandela? One of them is still breathing. Unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 there will be 1 mins applause at all prem games this weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Plenty. That the UK is well-governed with institutionalised spaces for dissent, making violence -or extralegal methods- much harder to justify whereas South Africa under apartheid was the polar opposite. That's only a start. Good start. So Life is cheaper in Africa than Britain and the murder of innocent Africans to make political points Is justified there but not in the UK because of the government systems in place in the respective countries. Excellent start well made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Good start. So Life is cheaper in Africa than Britain and the murder of innocent Africans to make political points Is justified there but not in the UK because of the government systems in place in the respective countries. Excellent start well made. Well the Apartheid regime certainly thought as much regards the vast majority of the South African population - hence another difference. Curious you overlook that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 (edited) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-we-were-wrong-to-call-mandela-a-terrorist-413684.html "Cameron: We were wrong to call Mandela a terrorist" ........................................... 'The ANC is a typical terrorist organisation ... Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land' - Margaret Thatcher, 1987 This from the woman who declared Pinochet a 'great democratic'. Edited 6 December, 2013 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Well the Apartheid regime certainly thought as much regards the vast majority of the South African population - hence another difference. Curious you overlook that. Have I described the apartheid regime as Heroes and inspirational figures then? Show me where I've justified their actions. You're the one justifying murder pal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-we-were-wrong-to-call-mandela-a-terrorist-413684.html 'The ANC is a typical terrorist organisation ... Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land' - Margaret Thatcher, 1987 This from the woman who declared Pinochet a 'great democratic'. I wonder how many of the current Conservative crop were involved in the "Hang Mandela" posters? http://descrier.co.uk/politics/2013/12/cameron-involved-hang-mandela-posters-1980s/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 I wonder how many of the current Conservative crop were involved in the "Hang Mandela" posters? http://descrier.co.uk/politics/2013/12/cameron-involved-hang-mandela-posters-1980s/ I wonder what state SA would be in now if Mandela had been executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Have I described the apartheid regime as Heroes and inspirational figures then? Show me where I've justified their actions. You're the one justifying murder pal You are either with the freedom fighters or against Turks. Now which is it? Eh, come on, pick a side. Are you with the goodies or the baddies? There is no looking objectively on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 (edited) Have I described the apartheid regime as Heroes and inspirational figures then? Show me where I've justified their actions. You're the one justifying murder pal Odd you single out the death of white south Africans in the struggles without acknowledging the other side of the balance sheet which towered in comparison. Oh yeh I remember because some were 'terrorists' Edited 6 December, 2013 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Lion Tamer Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 You are either with the freedom fighters or against Turks. Now which is it? Eh, come on, pick a side. Are you with the goodies or the baddies? There is no looking objectively on this forum. The objective view is to acknowledge that there can be good and bad 'terrorists' (or whatever label you want to use) depending on the circumstances. Some violent acts are just and necessary to prevent greater harm. Not everyone who sanctions violence is 'a baddie'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 No you are right. For the record I am firmly on the side of Mandela did far more good than bad during his life. However, I was drawn in by verbals comment asking to show where he was a terrorist, implying that he did not sanction acts of terror. I read his book and he did and admitted it. He also signed off on the murder of innocent people, not military targets. The killing of black police officers and the bombing of innocent people shopping on Church Street are not in the same ball park as the French resistance bombing the Nazis during the war or the execution of a fascist dictator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 No you are right. For the record I am firmly on the side of Mandela did far more good than bad during his life. However, I was drawn in by verbals comment asking to show where he was a terrorist, implying that he did not sanction acts of terror. I read his book and he did and admitted it. He also signed off on the murder of innocent people, not military targets. The killing of black police officers and the bombing of innocent people shopping on Church Street are not in the same ball park as the French resistance bombing the Nazis during the war or the execution of a fascist dictator. And the struggles in South Africa are different from those in Northern Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Although there are many similarities, yes, they are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lets B Avenue Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Just seen the tributes paid on SSN by the greats of sport and ..... Harry Redknapp?? He obviously didn't rate Mandela as he didn't once call him "triffic" nor "a top, top president". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 For the record I am firmly on the side of Mandela did far more good than bad during his life. woah tone back the controversial opinions pls tokyos, this isn't talksport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 I wonder how many of the current Conservative crop were involved in the "Hang Mandela" posters? http://descrier.co.uk/politics/2013/12/cameron-involved-hang-mandela-posters-1980s/ http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/david-cameron-didnt-produce-hang-mandela-posters-during-the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 6 December, 2013 Share Posted 6 December, 2013 (edited) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-we-were-wrong-to-call-mandela-a-terrorist-413684.html "Cameron: We were wrong to call Mandela a terrorist" ........................................... 'The ANC is a typical terrorist organisation ... Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land' - Margaret Thatcher, 1987 This from the woman who declared Pinochet a 'great democratic'. http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/110862 The widely-quoted “cloud-cuckoo land” remark attributed to MT at the end of this article is apocryphal. As far as can be traced she never made a public comment even similar to this. Rather the origin of the quote appears to be a response by her press spokesman, Bernard Ingham, on 16 October 1987 at the Vancouver Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. A Canadian journalist speculated that the African National Congress might overthrow the white South African regime, to which he replied: “It is cloud cuckooland for anyone to believe that could be done.” (See Washington Post, 17 Oct 1987.) Years later the words were modified and attributed to MT by Hugo Young, who claimed that she had said at Vancouver: “Anyone who thinks that the ANC is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land”. (See The Guardian, 26 Apr 1994.) In that form they became part of the journalistic ‘record’. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/10-things-you-thought-you-knew-about-margaret-thatchers-downing-street-years-8572023.html We have searched the record and spoken to one of her most recent biographers and can find no such comment. She did say, in answer to a question at a press conference at the 1987 Commonwealth Summit in Vancouver on reports that the ANC said they would target British firms: "This shows what a typical terrorist organisation it is." Also, she did not, as frequently maintained, say: "Anyone who thinks the ANC is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land." This is a misquoting of her spokesman, Bernard Ingham, who, when asked if the ANC might overthrow the white South African regime by force, replied: "It is cloud-cuckoo land for anyone to believe that could be done." There are plentiful records of Thatcher condemning apartheid; as far back as 1961 she was proposing a bill of rights for newly independent Commonwealth countries; and her government's efforts in lobbying for Mandela's release were crucial. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22069896 Edited 6 December, 2013 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 6 December, 2013 Author Share Posted 6 December, 2013 Just seen the tributes paid on SSN by the greats of sport and ..... Harry Redknapp?? He obviously didn't rate Mandela as he didn't once call him "triffic" nor "a top, top president". Although he did try to sign him at West Ham but the board wouldn't sanction the transfer fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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