As it stands, do we have a better team than ENGLAND?

[Glasgow_Saint]

I say yes

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

I'd say Wanyama, JWP and Schneiderlin give a much better midfield base than Lampard, Wilshere and Milner that's for sure.

[SNSUN]

Yes, but England has the better squad. :-)

 

(Removes Saints' fan rose-tinted specs)

[Saint86]

I don't know.

 

But it is apparent just how far behind the rest of the world england are tactically....

 

The issue is this. The commentators just said "a big part of the problem is that only 5 of tonight's England team started last weeks champions league games, the German squad that are visiting on Tuesday have 17. That is a massive part of the problem."

 

Because that explains why Chile, with at least 2 championship players, just samba'd around our team with ease.... This refusal to accept how backward england are tactically is the only problem in my mind. There are 210 players who are eligible for england and that played in the prem last season. Plus some that would be good enough in the championship.... They don't get picked because those with the power assume its all about champions league level football and not tactics. The fact that we are 3rd in the league with 6 league 1 players should be point in bloody case. Team spirit and tactics... england lack both!

[Glasgow_Saint]

Just shows what a great manager mopo is

[Saint Charlie]

Not necesaarily better players but tactically miles better and superior at getting the best out of the teams best players.

[shurlock]

Not necesaarily better players but tactically miles better and superior at getting the best out of the teams best players.

 

Basically the England team is run the way clubs are run, albeit without the continuity of players training together each day. There needs to be a structure in place so that whoever is manager, the setup, selection criteria and style of play are the same.

 

We operate something similar with our DoF and transfer committee, though we're hardly pioneers. That kind of structure arguably matters more at an international level where players need to be able to slot into a system without little or no preparation

Edited 15 November, 2013 by shurlock

[aintforever]

Yes.

[Glasgow_Saint]

I wonder if mopo will be in the running for next England job?

[ashleyb5443]

I think the top 8 are better than the England team.

[Counterforce]

I wonder if mopo will be in the running for next England job?

 

From what I recall (hazily), he was asked about this in one of the many and various features in the press recently... And he said something like "it would be a great honour but I think my Argentine citizenship would be revoked". Nicely done.

[Counterforce]

^ On a related note, MoPo could well manage Argentina one day if he continues on this kind of trajectory (although time in charge of an Argentine club side seems to count for a lot when that job comes up)...

[Hedge End Ranger]

This!!

 

 

 

I don't know.

 

But it is apparent just how far behind the rest of the world england are tactically....

 

The issue is this. The commentators just said "a big part of the problem is that only 5 of tonight's England team started last weeks champions league games, the German squad that are visiting on Tuesday have 17. That is a massive part of the problem."

 

Because that explains why Chile, with at least 2 championship players, just samba'd around our team with ease.... This refusal to accept how backward england are tactically is the only problem in my mind. There are 210 players who are eligible for england and that played in the prem last season. Plus some that would be good enough in the championship.... They don't get picked because those with the power assume its all about champions league level football and not tactics. The fact that we are 3rd in the league with 6 league 1 players should be point in bloody case. Team spirit and tactics... england lack both!

[Huffton]

^ On a related note, MoPo could well manage Argentina one day if he continues on this kind of trajectory (although time in charge of an Argentine club side seems to count for a lot when that job comes up)...

 

IF things keep going as they are, I imagine the Bank of Cortese could be very persuasive

[The Kraken]

Joe Hart

 

Glen Johnson - Gary Cahill - Phil Jagielka - Ashley Cole

 

Steven Gerrard - Jack Wilshere

 

Theo Walcott - Ross Barclay - Andros Townsend

 

Wayne Rooney

 

Vs

 

Rickie Lambert

 

Jay Rodgriguez - James Ward-Prowse - Adam Lallana

 

Morgan Schneiderlin - Victor Wanyama

 

Luke Shaw - Jose Fonte - Dejan Lovren - Nathaniel Clyne

 

Artur Boruc

 

Scoreline?

 

Not sure myself, to be honest.

[washsaint]

Shocking thing for me was England's appalling lack of control. Some of Milner's touches were appalling with eh ball ballooning of him. The difference between most of the England team and Saints was very noticeable.....different tempo (England way slower), different touch (Saints pass and move is a joy to behold, compared to the carthorse touch of many of the players on show today) and the shocking lack of pace at the back for England.

 

Very poor display. Unfortunately J-Rod did not do himself justice but Adam played well and was about the one bright spot of an entirely forgettable match (from an England perspective). have to say the way Chile played was fairly similar to Saints......defend as a team and break quickly at pace with lots of pass and move and pressing the opposition when they have the ball.

[The Kraken]

Shocking thing for me was England's appalling lack of control. Some of Milner's touches were appalling with eh ball ballooning of him. The difference between most of the England team and Saints was very noticeable.....different tempo (England way slower), different touch (Saints pass and move is a joy to behold, compared to the carthorse touch of many of the players on show today) and the shocking lack of pace at the back for England.

 

Very poor display. Unfortunately J-Rod did not do himself justice but Adam played well and was about the one bright spot of an entirely forgettable match (from an England perspective). have to say the way Chile played was fairly similar to Saints......defend as a team and break quickly at pace with lots of pass and move and pressing the opposition when they have the ball.

Pretty much agree with all this. Per man, Saints aren't the third best team in the Premier League. We aren't. Yet we're third on merit because our team deserve to be there, we work really hard, we have some supremely talentled players but we also back it up with hard work and great tactics by all of our players (and, indeed, the manager).

 

Tonight, we had Lampard and Milner who f*cked about a bit in central midfield and allowed an energetic Chilean midfield to completely bully them. And a predictable display from England. Good tactics from Chile, lazy and ineffectual tactics from England (although, given the slow central midfield, we had only a few options).

 

I hope that there is a sea of change into hoe football teams must play. "All action" was something that was once derided, but it has massively changed and has turned into something to behold, a game of hunting in packs when you don't have the ball and then keeping it.

 

Its better on the eye watching Saints than it is England; England should be so much better, but Roy has only got old fashioned tactics and, IMO, we'll only be not quite good enough under his charge.

[Junior Mullet]

I think the top 8 are better than the England team.

 

I sort of agree with this. Club players know one another inside out and have a tactical format to follow whereas the national team is just a hotch-potch of players who come together once in a blue moon.

 

Yes, I think Saints would beat England more times than not, as would most of the top Prem League teams. They would also beat several other national teams IMO, it's not just England.

[Appy]

We'd win against England, we can keep the ball at a high intensity, England, quite simply, can't.

[paulwantsapint]

Which england players would make it into the saints 1st team playing the saints way?

International form only for england players

 

Joe hart - our defence would renew his confidence

RB - nobody better than Clyne

Gary Cahill - would be great with lovren

Jagiellka(sp) - would be great with lovren

LB - not much better than shaw

DM - nobody near Morgan & victor or Morgan & cork

lallana too good for rest of england

Jrod not great but not really any worse than welbeck

Jwp still early but would play for england not himself

AT/no9/no10-

Rooney would fit in well, great work rate to go with great skill

 

Front 4 of any of lallana, jrod, jwp, rickie, osvaldo, Rooney

 

Walcott, sturridge, AOC could all do a job but would they give defencive cover jrod does?

[Turkish]

Joe Hart

 

Glen Johnson - Gary Cahill - Phil Jagielka - Ashley Cole

 

Steven Gerrard - Jack Wilshere

 

Theo Walcott - Ross Barclay - Andros Townsend

 

Wayne Rooney

 

Vs

 

Rickie Lambert

 

Jay Rodgriguez - James Ward-Prowse - Adam Lallana

 

Morgan Schneiderlin - Victor Wanyama

 

Luke Shaw - Jose Fonte - Dejan Lovren - Nathaniel Clyne

 

Artur Boruc

 

Scoreline?

 

Not sure myself, to be honest.

 

I see you've let the best english players there play for their saints, if they played for England then it might be a bit more even.

 

--------Hart

 

Clyne-Cahill-Jagielka-Shaw

 

-----Gerard----Wilshire

 

Walcott--Lallana---Rodriguez

 

----------Lambert

 

V

 

-------Boruc

 

 

Chambers-Lovern-Fonte-Fox

 

-----Wanyama--Schiniderlin

 

Guly-----Davis----Ramirez

 

-----------Osvaldo

 

 

With those teams can see England holding us to a draw.

Edited 16 November, 2013 by Turkish

[DuncanRG]

Impossible to compare international and club football, as always.

[Deano6]

Impossible to compare international and club football, as always.

 

Why? Given The Kraken's interesting post of 11 men v 11 it is certainly possible to speculate what the outcome would be. Sure it's just hypothesis, but it's not impossible to compare. No reason hy that match could not take place one day, in theory at least.

[dan abnormal]

England and Hodgson are lacking identity. England need a modern, exciting coach like the Chilean coach who isn't afraid of anyone and takes the game to the opposition.We might not have the best squad in the world but as saints are currently showing, a well drilled team of confident players who know their role and believe in the system they play can play better than the sum of their parts. Hodgson is a good coach but I dont think he is good enough to beat the top international sides.

[dubai_phil]

England and Hodgson are lacking identity. England need a modern, exciting coach like the Chilean coach who isn't afraid of anyone and takes the game to the opposition.We might not have the best squad in the world but as saints are currently showing, a well drilled team of confident players who know their role and believe in the system they play can play better than the sum of their parts. Hodgson is a good coach but I dont think he is good enough to beat the top international sides.

 

I agree with the sentiment of this, but unless England REALLY copy Saints and start playing to a style from U17 upwards and pick players for the system, then there truly will be nobody on the planet who could get our disparate collection of egos playing together at the work rate and effort of Germany, Spain and now FFS Chile.

 

Luckily I did not watch the game last night, but have read much analysis and at the end of the day as Saints fans we have seen what happens to our system when KD or Boruc have to resort to kicking the ball long. Modern football starts from the back (unless you are VW vs Hull), and you need shape.

 

So with a standard 3 days of get together? vs 3 or more YEARS of spirit and bonding? Hell yes Saints have a better TEAM than England. Would probably win more than they lost against them as well

[CanadaSaint]

The tactical difference was noticeable, with both Lallana and Rodriguez backing well-off when Chile looked to play out from the back. It left Rooney on his own to try to pressure Chile's back line, and - not surprisingly - it turned out to be an exercise in futility.

 

If we'd thrown our (Saints) press at Chile, they wouldn't have looked anywhere near as good as England allowed them to look.

 

It was almost as though Hodgson was "sort of trying" the Saints tactic but without really understanding what it is or really committing to it. No wonder Rodriguez looked - and was - very peripheral.

 

So, I'd be inclined to say that I think Saints would have played much better against Chile than England did, and may well have got a very different result.

[hasper57saint]

The tactical difference was noticeable, with both Lallana and Rodriguez backing well-off when Chile looked to play out from the back. It left Rooney on his own to try to pressure Chile's back line, and - not surprisingly - it turned out to be an exercise in futility.

 

If we'd thrown our (Saints) press at Chile, they wouldn't have looked anywhere near as good as England allowed them to look.

 

It was almost as though Hodgson was "sort of trying" the Saints tactic but without really understanding what it is or really committing to it. No wonder Rodriguez looked - and was - very peripheral.

 

So, I'd be inclined to say that I think Saints would have played much better against Chile than England did, and may well have got a very different result.

 

I did watch the game and was somewhat perplexed by the amount of DEFENDING J.Rod had to do.No wonder he only got a 6.

[DuncanRG]

Why? Given The Kraken's interesting post of 11 men v 11 it is certainly possible to speculate what the outcome would be. Sure it's just hypothesis, but it's not impossible to compare. No reason hy that match could not take place one day, in theory at least.

 

There are huge differences in the way the game's played at each level and, let's be honest, most of what our XI are doing at the moment is down to the way the manager is drilling and organising them.

[captainchris]

I sort of agree with this. Club players know one another inside out and have a tactical format to follow whereas the national team is just a hotch-potch of players who come together once in a blue moon.

 

Yes, I think Saints would beat England more times than not, as would most of the top Prem League teams. They would also beat several other national teams IMO, it's not just England.

 

True it's not just Ezngland... The great thing is we are mostly thinking that watching England is not as good or organised as watching Saints. We have become a very organised team who are very good at keeping possession. England are not anywhere near that level.

Well done Adam a good performance and unlucky Jrod who is probably going to find it difficult to

Penetrate the England set up...

As far as watching England is concerned - much prefer watching Saints to England. England football is too disjointed, too based on individuals performances. Chile had it right - base your strategy around keeping possession - England could not come up with an answer to that and will not get results in any major if they don't adjust the strategy.

I would actually agree with some on here that it's better if our guys are not selected for the world cup.... Would rather watch Saints at the end of the day.....our players are actually wasted on England!!!

[SaintBobby]

Don't get the question really.

 

Well, I don't get the "as it stands" part of it.

 

We either have a better team than England or we don't.

 

I'm not expecting either the England or the Southampton squad to change greatly in the immediate future. So, the question will probably be stood in about the same place in a few weeks and even a few months time.

 

"As it stands" there are 3 players who play for Saints and for England, which rather complicates matters, I guess.

 

Assuming these players could be replicated and be in both squads, I think Saints would just edge it.

[Coxford_lou]

The thing I noticed most about the game (aside from the odd position jay found himself in) was how little they tackled for the ball. I'm used to seeing Saints go for the ball a lot, but nada from England defence or midfield. I'm curious to see comparative stats on it. Also, the defence was so slow and laboured.

 

Watching the game with a group of English non Saints supporters, they immediately jump on Jay as being out of his depth. But being able to watch him throughout the game (orange boots came in handy when you're up in the rafters) he was constantly having to fill back and in a midfield position. Not who he is at all. But because most English don't know enough about him yet, they weren't able to understand that and wrote him off immediately. Sounds like Roy has more perspective, and if Jay keeps club form up, he'll get another chance I think. In a way, easier for Adam as he can make his own chances, rather than be reliant on a great through ball.

[The9]

Just shows what a great manager mopo is

 

Or how good Pardew and/or Adkins were at signing Prem players for teams in L1/Championship.

Edited 17 November, 2013 by The9

[Glasgow_Saint]

Or how good Pardew and/or Adkins were at signing Prem players for teams in L1/Championship.

 

Cant take anything away from either.... Both are top managers.

 

Mopo is still young in age and to management but will be great too im sure

 

Had an arguement on twitter with a guy who was saying mopo is just copying Marcelo Bielsa's, Spain and Barcelona's play and philosophy. The guy was saying that mopo is a fake and just a copycat.

 

I told him not to call him a copycat and said mopo is a great guy

[mikee]

Shocking thing for me was England's appalling lack of control. Some of Milner's touches were appalling with eh ball ballooning of him. The difference between most of the England team and Saints was very noticeable.....different tempo (England way slower), different touch (Saints pass and move is a joy to behold, compared to the carthorse touch of many of the players on show today) and the shocking lack of pace at the back for England.

 

Very poor display. Unfortunately J-Rod did not do himself justice but Adam played well and was about the one bright spot of an entirely forgettable match (from an England perspective). have to say the way Chile played was fairly similar to Saints......defend as a team and break quickly at pace with lots of pass and move and pressing the opposition when they have the ball.

 

Not really surprising as i am sure that the Chilean coach was also at Newell Old Boys and was a student of Marcelo Bielsa.

 

It was mentioned in a recent article about MoPo's journey to the Premier League.

 

Personally i think MoPo has improved on Bielsa's style and manages to combine the high press with defensive shape.

[Window Cleaner]

Not really surprising as i am sure that the Chilean coach was also at Newell Old Boys and was a student of Marcelo Bielsa.

 

It was mentioned in a recent article about MoPo's journey to the Premier League.

 

Personally i think MoPo has improved on Bielsa's style and manages to combine the high press with defensive shape.

 

 

Normal really, MPo was a top player who played in Europe. Bielsa was pretty average as a player, few games for Newells and then

minor S.Am leagues. Thus MPo has a wealth of playing experience to transform Bielsa's systems into his own variants.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Cant take anything away from either.... Both are top managers.

 

Mopo is still young in age and to management but will be great too im sure

 

Had an arguement on twitter with a guy who was saying mopo is just copying Marcelo Bielsa's, Spain and Barcelona's play and philosophy. The guy was saying that mopo is a fake and just a copycat.

 

I told him not to call him a copycat and said mopo is a great guy

 

You found your Twitter login?

[Glasgow_Saint]

You found your Twitter login?

 

#yes

[Deano6]

There are huge differences in the way the game's played at each level and, let's be honest, most of what our XI are doing at the moment is down to the way the manager is drilling and organising them.

 

What does that matter? Regardless of the "level" (ie what competition the game has been organized in relation to), it's still 11 men against 11. Why would the same set of 11 players play differently against the same opposition whether they were wearing red tops or white?

[david in sweden]

I say yes

 

sounds a but outrageous ....but when you consider that the likes of Smalling and Cleverley often start on the Man.U bench, and that Cahill can't get a regular start with Chelsea it makes you wonder?

 

Putting aside the " Hart issue "....England don't have a settled back four (unlike Saints) and those legendary midfielders (Gerrard and Lampard ) don't have the pace any longer and Milner and Carrick just don't impress.

 

I do think it was hard for those media types to criticize Jay Rod (in his first game) when quite a few other more " experienced players" didn't show up much better on Friday.

 

The real test of our ability as a team will come in the next month.

 

Starting at the Emirates we need to play to our potential, and getting 3 points in each of the next two games may not be realistic to some people, but good displays will confirm it one way or the other.