A very thought provoking article by a war veteran

[bridge too far]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith?CMP=fb_gu

 

Does he have a valid point?

Edited 8 November, 2013 by Jimmy_D
Typo fixed.

[buctootim]

"Today, we have allowed monolithic corporate institutions to set our national agenda. We have allowed vitriol to replace earnest debate and we have somehow deluded ourselves into thinking that wealth is wisdom. But by far the worst error we have made as a people is to think ourselves as taxpayers first and citizens second".

 

Living to 91 apparently buys you a lot of wisdom.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Very thought provoking. The lines about wealth not equating to wisdom and not thinking of ourselves as citizens first and foremost are on the money. I'm sure I've been guilty of it but as a country we are becoming increasingly "them and us" in so many arenas: taxpayers vs scroungers; south east vs the rest of the country; old vs young; babyboomers vs under 40s; super-rich vs middle classes etc etc

[CB Saint]

Why the hell are we commemorating the start of one of the worst wars in history. If we are going to spend the money, surely it should be spent in 2018 - ie the anniversay of the end.

[Viking Warrior]

Ah backtootim . a usual rant from you not inexpected Bless

 

Oh in case you have forgotten it is rememberance sunday this weekend

 

how ever guess what I hear and see most about is the Pudsey bear and children in need appeal which is next weekend

 

Advertising of special programmes on the TV and Radio

 

Where are your thought on this?

 

I will where my poppy with pride and next years events are not a glorification of war celebrations, quite the opposite

if you chose to look into it more deeply CB

[buctootim]

Ah backtootim . a usual rant from you not inexpected Bless

 

Oh in case you have forgotten it is rememberance sunday this weekend

 

how ever guess what I hear and see most about is the Pudsey bear and children in need appeal which is next weekend

 

Advertising of special programmes on the TV and Radio

 

Where are your thought on this?

 

I will where my poppy with pride and next years events are not a glorification of war celebrations, quite the opposite

if you chose to look into it more deeply CB

 

As usual you've missed the point as it went sailing over your head. Try and actually read the article by the WW2 veteran about how remembrance is being hijacked by justification.

[View From The Top]

"...and we have somehow deluded ourselves into thinking that wealth is wisdom".

 

That's a top quote.

 

I understand where he is coming from but I'll be on parade on Sunday, wearing by old beret and medals, in rememberance of those who fell to ensure my freedom.

 

For those who fell in Iraq and Afghanistan, I feel for them the same compassion I do for those that fell in Flanders and France. Like those of the Great War, they died for a lie.

[eurosaint]

I have worn a poppy every year since adulhood and do it in memory of those fallen in all conflicts on behalf of my country !

I can see no reason to politicise the practise and do not in any way relate it to 'monolithic corporate institutions' or any other issue either !

The old guy is entitled to his opinion and take action as he sees fit, but IMHO the vast majority of British citizens wear the poppy with pride and do not consider that it is in any way linked to the rights or wrongs of society today !

[Viking Warrior]

I read the article backtootim

 

I understand where he is coming from I respect his view point while I do not agree with him entirely as a long serving ex soldier and like others I will be on parade on Sunday. To remember the fallen in what ever conflict . I know the mother of one of the two female medics who died in afghan and Iraq . Her daughter was doing her job when she was blown up with others . Last year her best mate died in afghan after be shot by an off duty afghan policeman . There will be a specially thought for Sally's daughter and CPl Channing day and my dad's mates who were shot and murdered while they were sleeping by the nagana while my dad and the rest of his platoon were out on patrol during the Palestine conflict. 6 died that day and two died of their injuries a week or so later . He was serving with 5th battalion parachute regiments in March 1946

I will wear dad's beret on the way to the cathedral as a tribute to him and his slain colleagues and my own corp beret on the way back out of respect to everyone else

 

So you see backtootim. I have a lot of understanding about what this weekend means to servicemen up and down the country

Edited 8 November, 2013 by Viking Warrior

[trousers]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith?CMP=fb_gu

 

Does he have a valid point?

 

Sorry for the typo in the title - I can't seem to edit it

 

It's not a view I share but its an interesting viewpoint nonetheless. Cheers for posting.

[Barry Sanchez]

It's a very interesting point, I dont agree in wars but I know the World can not be my idealist paradise and that bad and sometimes unjust things happen in this World, that will not stop me wearing a poppy with pride but I fully respect the writers view.

[pap]

Both recent wars were impossible to justify.

 

There was no need for Afghanistan. The Taliban crapped their pants after the bombing of Afghanistan began, and offered to give bin Laden up to Bush in exchange for stopping the bombs from falling.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

 

There was clearly no need for Iraq, either.

 

We are invading other countries and calling it pre-emptive war. We are ignoring the Geneva Convention by referring to prisoners of war as enemy combatants.

 

Our recent wars have not been fought for good reasons. My take is that we're broadly looking to achieve three things. An immediate benefit of war for Western states is that it stimulates demand in the military-industrial sector, one of the few areas of manufacturing we can still claim as our own. The second objective is to secure resources. Finally, the third major objective is to settle the Israeli question, and it doesn't involve a two-state solution with Palestine.

 

Long-term, I believe that the aim is to take out any country that has an ongoing beef with Israel. Big states will be broken into small states and there'll be no shortage of takers for "heads of Government" in these newly created countries. The Middle East will be balkanised, probably consisting of fiefdoms every bit as oppressive as the likes of Bahrain or Saudi Arabia. It's imperialism justified through fear of the brown-skinned monster terrorist, but it's imperialism nonetheless.

 

And to think in 1989/90 the world thought it had peace sorted.

[Bwanamakubwa]

Manufacturing wars for no good reason is not a new thing. The first Anglo Afghanistan war in 1839 being a prime example.

[Barry Sanchez]

Manufacturing wars for no good reason is not a new thing. The first Anglo Afghanistan war in 1839 being a prime example.

Very true, the great game.

[CB Saint]

Ah backtootim . a usual rant from you not inexpected Bless

 

Oh in case you have forgotten it is rememberance sunday this weekend

 

how ever guess what I hear and see most about is the Pudsey bear and children in need appeal which is next weekend

 

Advertising of special programmes on the TV and Radio

 

Where are your thought on this?

 

I will where my poppy with pride and next years events are not a glorification of war celebrations, quite the opposite

if you chose to look into it more deeply CB

 

 

My comments have nothing to do with wearing a poppy or rememberance day. This is something I do every year and have a lot of respect for and should continue. My issue comes from the £50m that will be spent by the government to commererate the start of the war - I am sorry if this offends anyones sensibilities but I don't want to commemerate the start of any war, I cannot understand why anyone would. In my opinion it is far more appropriate to celebrate a war's end.

[Manuel]

One point he makes is that for some, the wearing of a poppy becomes indistinguishable from 'support of military action' in modern times. Like it or not, some people see the poppy as supporting current military action. I guess that's the trouble with generic symbols or badges is that they can mean different things to different people. At the end of the day, because of our freedoms, one has the choice whether or not to wear, or to remember or commemorate as we see fit.

[eurosaint]

One point he makes is that for some, the wearing of a poppy becomes indistinguishable from 'support of military action' in modern times. Like it or not, some people see the poppy as supporting current military action. I guess that's the trouble with generic symbols or badges is that they can mean different things to different people. At the end of the day, because of our freedoms, one has the choice whether or not to wear, or to remember or commemorate as we see fit.

 

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, the poppy has been worn since 1920 and unless someone actually tells you that they are wearing it in support of (ie.) the Iraq war then how do you know ??

Ps. not being critical, just wonder why some people interpret the usage in this way !

[buctootim]

Very true, the great game.

 

Manufacturing wars for no good reason is not a new thing. The first Anglo Afghanistan war in 1839 being a prime example.

 

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, the poppy has been worn since 1920 and unless someone actually tells you that they are wearing it in support of (ie.) the Iraq war then how do you know ??

Ps. not being critical, just wonder why some people interpret the usage in this way !

 

Isnt that the point of the article, and echoed by Manuel? The uncontentious poppy symbol was created to remind people of the horror of WW1 and to avoid it happening again. Arguably its use has been hijacked by current politicians who are engaged in sanctioning more foreign wars on dubious premises - hence turning the original message of the poppy on its head.

[Barry Sanchez]

Isnt that the point of the article, and echoed by Manuel? The uncontentious poppy symbol was created to remind people of the horror of WW1 and to avoid it happening again. Arguably its use has been hijacked by current politicians who are engaged in sanctioning more foreign wars on dubious premises - hence turning the original message of the poppy on its head.

 

Yes but some as mentioned see it for others things, a symbol will do that and such a powerful one will have larger gulfs and more divided opinions.

[trousers]

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion, the poppy has been worn since 1920 and unless someone actually tells you that they are wearing it in support of (ie.) the Iraq war then how do you know ??

Ps. not being critical, just wonder why some people interpret the usage in this way !

 

Maybe some people interpret it that way because it suits their agenda...

 

The more people that say that the red poppy is a sign of "condoning war" the more it'll become engrained into peoples' minds and over time it may become the prevailing point of view.

 

Wearing a poppy does not mean that person condones war (or at least war for wars sake). If other people want to think it does then that is their prerogative but it would be wrong from them to judge others by their own point of view.

[Viking Warrior]

CB I was focussing on your comments re Why the hell are we commemorating the start of one of the worst wars in history and not the wearing of poppies.

 

Its is a five year commemoration

 

The monarch is due to attend the event at Glasgow Cathedral on August 4 next year. The city has been chosen as a focal point for activities to mark the start of the conflict, as it is hosting the Commonwealth Games which end the day before.

 

Across the country, flags on public buildings will fly at half mast on the anniversary of the outbreak, while, in Belgium, another service will be held at St Symphorien Military Cemetery near Mons, where similar numbers of British and German war dead are buried, including the first and last Commonwealth soldiers killed in the conflict.

 

The day will end with a vigil at Westminster Abbey where a single candle will be extinguished at 11pm, a century on from the moment when, in the words of Sir Edward Grey, Britain’s foreign secretary at the time, “the lamps are going out all over Europe”.

 

details of the entire programme have been annouced for 2014-2018, which will allow people to mark the conflict which ravaged the continent “with sorrow and with pride”.

 

Nearly 10 million soldiers were killed before the guns finally fell silent on Armistice Day, 11 November 1918.

 

I agree it was one of the worst wars, but as is mentioned above 10 million soldiers and countless civilians lost their lives

 

It is not a jingoistic commemoration but one of sorrow amongst all else.

[Viking Warrior]

Manuel sadly your right about some folk see it as supporting the current military campaign , its a shame they are mistaken

 

In Flanders fields the poppies blow

Between the crosses, row on row,

That mark our place; and in the sky

The larks, still bravely singing, fly

Scarce heard amid the guns below.

 

We are the Dead. Short days ago

We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,

Loved and were loved, and now we lie

In Flanders fields.

 

Take up our quarrel with the foe:

To you from failing hands we throw

The torch; be yours to hold it high.

If ye break faith with us who die

We shall not sleep, though poppies grow

In Flanders fields.

 

Maj John Mccrae _ Doctor

[Kingsland Red]

I've just read an excellent book by Jeremy Paxman on the first world war. If Iraq and Afghanistan are hard to justify, WW1 was also a struggle for the politicians, as we declared war on Germany on the basis of a 60 year old treaty, drawn up when most of them were not even born. It was about assisting Belguim if Germany were to invade .

Our country was bankrupted in assisting Belguim and France .

[View From The Top]

If anyone is in any doubt why the poppy is such an important symbol to us as a nation I suggest them take a trip to Ypres. I'm back over there in Feb' to explore around Messines.

 

Hopefully the 100 year anniversary next year will bring back to the fore the sheer insanity of the slaughter of WW1.

[Kingsland Red]

If anyone is in any doubt why the poppy is such an important symbol to us as a nation I suggest them take a trip to Ypres. I'm back over there in Feb' to explore around Messines.

 

Hopefully the 100 year anniversary next year will bring back to the fore the sheer insanity of the slaughter of WW1.

 

My grand parents siblings are named on the Menin Gate and 'missing in action' at Thiepval cemetery. Very moving.

[View From The Top]

My grand parents siblings are named on the Menin Gate and 'missing in action' at Thiepval cemetery. Very moving.

 

It is. I spend quite a bit of time in Flanders and the slaughter there never fails to move me. However, whenever I visit the Somme I find myself weeping openly as I wander around the cemeteries and battlefields.

 

I weep for the lost dreams and children never born. For innocence and misplaced ideas of glory but most of all I weep for the sheer pointlessness of it all.

[Ohio Saint]

If anyone is in any doubt why the poppy is such an important symbol to us as a nation I suggest them take a trip to Ypres.

 

I was thinking about the poppy just yesterday. On my 20 mile trip to work, I drive down two roads named after recently dead American servicemen. Now, I don't mean to be disrespectful to them or their sacrifice, but over here, the zeal with which a local Government will make claims on the memory of these people smacks more to me of local politicians trying to make their mark more than it does of a genuine respect.

 

I think the poppy is a perfect symbol that encapsulates the sacrifice made by all the veterans of needless wars, both killed or maimed. The poppy is, just, well, more classy than naming a road that will take a different name after a number of years and a few more wars.

 

The poppy is forever, and if one understands WHY it is a symbol, then it is much more thought provoking and respectful.

 

If a simple poppy can transform a comedy show like Blackadder goes Forth from a great comedy to an extremely poignant heart-stopping shock to the system in the final scene. Then it is working for me.

[bridge too far]

Thank you for correcting the thread title

[RedAndWhite91]

Hate all this "wearing a poppy advocates war" nonsense. Absolute bullsh!t. Like many have already said, it's quite obviously about remembrance and respect. If anything, it reminds us that war is horrific.

[OldNick]

I wear my poppy in remembrance of the people who sacrificed their lives (willingly or not) for us to enjoy our modern freedoms. Having a poppy is one of the best ways of showing that I will not forget. The author of the piece seems to be politically motivated himself and so is a tad hypocritical IMO. The more people his actions stop giving to the appeal the less his comrades have to relieve their hardship.

[bridge too far]

I think one of the points he was making was that some people wear the poppy for motives other than remembering our war dead. He commented on media presenters as an example.

 

I often have a picture in my mind where there is a box of poppies just out of shot of the TV cameras, ready to pinned on whoever is about to appear.

 

I am not knocking people who wear the poppy for very genuine reasons BTW.

[trousers]

I think one of the points he was making was that some people wear the poppy for motives other than remembering our war dead. He commented on media presenters as an example.

 

I often have a picture in my mind where there is a box of poppies just out of shot of the TV cameras, ready to pinned on whoever is about to appear.

 

I am not knocking people who wear the poppy for very genuine reasons BTW.

 

Just because an organisation (e.g. The BBC) makes it easy for its staff to acquire a poppy doesn't mean they don't also wear it for 'genuine' reasons. It would be a tad cynical to think otherwise...

 

If this chap could come up with some stats to back up his suspicions then maybe his point of view would be more compelling.

 

The words 'mountain' and 'molehill' spring to mind.

[aintforever]

Both recent wars were impossible to justify.

 

There was no need for Afghanistan. The Taliban crapped their pants after the bombing of Afghanistan began, and offered to give bin Laden up to Bush in exchange for stopping the bombs from falling.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

 

There was clearly no need for Iraq, either.

 

We are invading other countries and calling it pre-emptive war. We are ignoring the Geneva Convention by referring to prisoners of war as enemy combatants.

 

Our recent wars have not been fought for good reasons. My take is that we're broadly looking to achieve three things. An immediate benefit of war for Western states is that it stimulates demand in the military-industrial sector, one of the few areas of manufacturing we can still claim as our own. The second objective is to secure resources. Finally, the third major objective is to settle the Israeli question, and it doesn't involve a two-state solution with Palestine.

 

Long-term, I believe that the aim is to take out any country that has an ongoing beef with Israel. Big states will be broken into small states and there'll be no shortage of takers for "heads of Government" in these newly created countries. The Middle East will be balkanised, probably consisting of fiefdoms every bit as oppressive as the likes of Bahrain or Saudi Arabia. It's imperialism justified through fear of the brown-skinned monster terrorist, but it's imperialism nonetheless.

 

And to think in 1989/90 the world thought it had peace sorted.

 

I agree to an extent. I think the main motivation for the Afgan war was to rid the country of a regime who harboured Islamic terrorists, wether Bin Laden was handed over or not was irrelevant, the regime being in place was a threat in itself because it supported the Al Quaeda movement. It did fit the whole USA Westernisation strategy though so an element of what you said is probably right. Iraq is a different story though, it was pure aggression from the US and UK.

 

The thing is bringing freedom and democracy to a country is the exact same thing as giving corporations the freedom to exploit it. There is no difference. The problem is that giving people freedom and democracy is a good thing (no matter what anyone says about different cultures etc, democracy is the only right and fair system) and will always be the cloak to hide behind.

[Window Cleaner]

The author of the piece who bangs on about the impoverished having to accept the King's Shilling should take a turn around some Cambridge and Oxford colleges and see the names of the thousands of young men of those colleges fallen between 1914/18.

[aintforever]

The author of the piece who bangs on about the impoverished having to accept the King's Shilling should take a turn around some Cambridge and Oxford colleges and see the names of the thousands of young men of those colleges fallen between 1914/18.

 

I think his point was that whilst many chose to go, alot of poor people didn't have a choice.

[Window Cleaner]

I think his point was that whilst many chose to go, alot of poor people didn't have a choice.

 

Most young men thought it their duty to go whether they were poor or rich. My late old grandad was a Somme survivor, he went with all his cronies from the Gas Works, few came back but he once told me that none of them considered not enlisting even though most of them were far too young but they just lied and the War Office didn't check.

[eurosaint]

I think one of the points he was making was that some people wear the poppy for motives other than remembering our war dead. He commented on media presenters as an example.

 

I often have a picture in my mind where there is a box of poppies just out of shot of the TV cameras, ready to pinned on whoever is about to appear.

 

I am not knocking people who wear the poppy for very genuine reasons BTW.

 

The question that no-one has yet answered is "how do we know that people are wearing the poppy for reasons that are not genuine" ??

[trousers]

The question that no-one has yet answered is "how do we know that people are wearing the poppy for reasons that are not genuine" ??

 

It's largely unprovable, which is what makes these opinion articles just that: an opinion

[Special K]

I like the cut of the fellas jib. Good piece. Thanks for posting.

[aintforever]

Most young men thought it their duty to go whether they were poor or rich. My late old grandad was a Somme survivor, he went with all his cronies from the Gas Works, few came back but he once told me that none of them considered not enlisting even though most of them were far too young but they just lied and the War Office didn't check.

 

I don't doubt that but this old chap obviously feels many didn't have a choice, I don't think either of us are in a position to call him a liar.

[Window Cleaner]

I think one of the points he was making was that some people wear the poppy for motives other than remembering our war dead. He commented on media presenters as an example.

 

I often have a picture in my mind where there is a box of poppies just out of shot of the TV cameras, ready to pinned on whoever is about to appear.

 

I am not knocking people who wear the poppy for very genuine reasons BTW.

 

 

Surely the whole point of the Poppy Appeal is to raise funds for the British Legion, why people buy them is totally irrelevant.

I always get one sent from home,pay my 2 quid and then I wear it to work, amuses the French no end, 2 colleagues asked for them this year as well , I told them it was 5 euros minimum, my sister paid 10 £ for the 3, euros will do for her next visit.

[View From The Top]

Most young men thought it their duty to go whether they were poor or rich. My late old grandad was a Somme survivor, he went with all his cronies from the Gas Works, few came back but he once told me that none of them considered not enlisting even though most of them were far too young but they just lied and the War Office didn't check.

 

They were Kitcheners army. Those that followed were not, they were conscripts.

 

That said, the point you make about those who went from gilded walkways of Oxbridge and public schools of the UK is a very valid one. However, the point raised about the them/us divide couldn't be better illustrated by the case of the officer corps during WW1; but that shouldn't detract from their sacrifice.

[Sour Mash]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith?CMP=fb_gu

 

Does he have a valid point?

Really strange article that doesn't make sense in so many ways. Pity the old boy seems so bitter about the modern world he finds himself in.

[Whitey Grandad]

If anyone is in any doubt why the poppy is such an important symbol to us as a nation I suggest them take a trip to Ypres. I'm back over there in Feb' to explore around Messines.

 

Hopefully the 100 year anniversary next year will bring back to the fore the sheer insanity of the slaughter of WW1.

 

Quite so. We have been to the Flanders area a few times and it never fails to fill me with tears. My Grandad's brother was killed near Oppy, north of Arras, and is still lying in a field somewhere. For many years my dad had a letter from him written just a few days before he was killed. Eventually we were able to hand it to his son, who was only one year old when he lost his dad and had no personal mementos of him, not even a photograph. I will post the full story when the time is right.

 

Bless 'em all.

[Manuel]

The question that no-one has yet answered is "how do we know that people are wearing the poppy for reasons that are not genuine" ??

Difficult without asking them I suppose, but one person's 'genuine reason' might not be the same as anothers. You only have to look on Facebook to see the poppy associated with slogans such as "support the troops". No criticism there particularly, but with emblems and symbols you might have to accept there is occasionally going to be some ambiguity as to the meaning and also that there might be those who wish to use it for a particular agenda no matter how well meaning.

[eurosaint]

Difficult without asking them I suppose, but one person's 'genuine reason' might not be the same as anothers. You only have to look on Facebook to see the poppy associated with slogans such as "support the troops". No criticism there particularly, but with emblems and symbols you might have to accept there is occasionally going to be some ambiguity as to the meaning and also that there might be those who wish to use it for a particular agenda no matter how well meaning.

 

I guess that is why the old lad wrote the article, he perceives that social issues are somehow linked to remembrance for the dead, personally I don't, but each of us has the right to say, do and believe what we want, thankfully we still live in a democratic country !

[Jonnyboy]

It is. I spend quite a bit of time in Flanders and the slaughter there never fails to move me. However, whenever I visit the Somme I find myself weeping openly as I wander around the cemeteries and battlefields.

 

I weep for the lost dreams and children never born. For innocence and misplaced ideas of glory but most of all I weep for the sheer pointlessness of it all.

 

Yet you'd execute an injured enemy soldier without a 2nd thought.

[View From The Top]

Yet you'd execute an injured enemy soldier without a 2nd thought.

 

No. I'd execute and insurgent who just been trying to kill me and who would do the same to me in a heat beat.

 

I'd lose no sleep over it either.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Yet you'd execute an injured enemy soldier without a 2nd thought.

 

I think Siegfried is referring to you in the last paragraph

 

http://allpoetry.com/poem/8499053-Sassoons-Public-Statement-Of-Defiance-by-Siegfried_Sassoon

[bridge too far]

And here is another view on the same topic

 

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/the-desecration-of-poppy.html