The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 (edited) Am happy the club used it as an opportunity to give a few youngsters a run out and get them one step closer to the first team. As I say, you want to have your cake and eat it. To have a conveyor belt of youth players but not pay the price for it, namely not have to give them proper competitive experience. The thing is; you talk about "straw men" thinking, then come out "you want to have your cake and eat it". Has our youth success in the past 10-15 years been predominantly based upon resting first team players in cup games? You suggested it; is that the main reason we've done so well? I don't think it is. JWP and Shaw made their names for themselves in the league. So did Lallana. So has Chambers, in fact. Edited 8 November, 2013 by The Kraken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Don't see your point? Was there on Wednesday. Am happy the club used it as an opportunity to give a few youngsters a run out and get them one step closer to the first team. As I say, you want to have your cake and eat it. To have a conveyor belt of youth players but not pay the price for it, namely not have to give them proper competitive experience. What are you on about having my cake and eating it for? I was one of the ones who before the game said we should go for it and play a strong side. Either we didn't want to win the tie or were arrogant to think a second string side would win away at a premier league side. You're making things up again aren't you pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 The thing is; you talk about "straw men" thinking, then come out "you want to have your cake and eat it". Has our youth success in the past 10-15 years been predominantly based upon resting first team players in cup games? You suggested it; is that the main reason we've done so well? I don't think it is. Luke Shaw is only in the side because he played against Stevenage last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 What are you on about having my cake and eating it for? I was one of the ones who before the game said we should go for it and play a strong side. Either we didn't want to win the tie or were arrogant to think a second string side would win away at a premier league side. You're making things up again aren't you pal. So developing and blooding youngsters doesn't matter then? When do you suggest we do that? Or are you claiming that they magically grow on trees and can walk into the first team without any experience or exposure to competitive football? Perhaps we should start them in the league instead of the cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 So developing and blooding youngsters doesn't matter then? When do you suggest we do that? Or are you claiming that they magically grow on trees and can walk into the first team without any experience or exposure to competitive football? Perhaps we should start them in the league instead of the cup? Seriously? You need to stop accusing others of "straw men" arguments, because that's twice in a row you've had a go yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 (edited) So developing and blooding youngsters doesn't matter then? When do you suggest we do that? Or are you claiming that they magically grow on trees and can walk into the first team without any experience or exposure to competitive football? Perhaps we should start them in the league instead of the cup? More brilliant mboardery. If we don't play them in the league cup they'll never make the first team. If we play them in the league cup they are guaranteed to be first team players due to the experience. So is Shaw only in the team because he played 90 minutes against Stevenage last season? Edited 8 November, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Seriously? You need to stop accusing others of "straw men" arguments, because that's twice in a row you've had a go yourself. I think he wants his cake and eat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 I think he wants his cake and eat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 More brilliant mboardery. If we don't play them in the league cup they'll never make the first team. If we play them in the league cup they are guaranteed to be first team players due to the experience. So is Shaw only in the team because he played 90 minutes against Stevenage last season? Reread my original post sunshine - I said it was part of the explanation not all of it. Read slowly in case you miss it the second time or even the first time. Why do you think other teams that also have a reputation for developing youngsters -Arsenal etc- use the cup to blood players in? Not rocket science. Every bit helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Could we have a poll as to who was happy with the line up on Wednesday? Constantly have fans who have the Dave Kitson attitude who don't give 'two sh1ts about the FA cup' So depressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Could we have a poll as to who was happy with the line up on Wednesday? Constantly have fans who have the Dave Kitson attitude who don't give 'two sh1ts about the FA cup' So depressingWhat does it matter in terms of a poll, whelk? Other than it might prove that some people think differently to others about it. Which, I'm guessing, we know already anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Reread my original post sunshine - I said it was part of the explanation not all of it. Read slowly in case you miss it the second time. Why do you think other teams that also have a reputation for developing youngsters -Arsenal etc- use the cup to blood players in? Not rocket science. Every bit helps. You seem to want to have your cake and eat it sunshine. One minute me saying we should have played a strong side on Wednesday night to win the cup which you equated to me saying playing young players don't matter now and they won't make the first team if we don't now you're saying, well it only helps a bit. See you can't answer how much Luke Shaw benefited from playing against Stevenage last season, so Which one is it? You seem to be struggle, must be all those straw mans arguments confusing you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 What does it matter in terms of a poll, whelk? Other than it might prove that some people think differently to others about it. Which, I'm guessing, we know already anyway. Yeah nothing really although it would show how many w@nky fans we have. Although actually just on here which shows nothing. I retract the poll request Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Yeah nothing really although it would show how many w@nky fans we have. Although actually just on here which shows nothing. I retract the poll request You see, you were doing well until you mentioned the w@nky fans bit; as if your way of thinking is the only sane and correct one. And that the selection you'd have picked for that game is the only acceptable one. A shame that you think its that's simple. I guess that's the limitations of thinking, heh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 So developing and blooding youngsters doesn't matter then? When do you suggest we do that? Or are you claiming that they magically grow on trees and can walk into the first team without any experience or exposure to competitive football? Perhaps we should start them in the league instead of the cup? It wasn't playing the youngsters that make our cup sides weak though is it? It's playing Kelvin Davis, Hooiveld, Danny Fox, Tadanari Lee, Guly etc. How many "youth conveyor belt" type players played a significant amount of Wednesday's game? Two, Chambers and Reed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 It wasn't playing the youngsters that make our cup sides weak though is it? It's playing Kelvin Davis, Hooiveld, Danny Fox, Tadanari Lee, Guly etc. How many "youth conveyor belt" type players played a significant amount of Wednesday's game? Two, Chambers and Reed. The way Strawlock has been going on, you'd think the average age of Wednesday's team was about 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 You see, you were doing well until you mentioned the w@nky fans bit; as if your way of thinking is the only sane and correct one. And that the selection you'd have picked for that game is the only acceptable one. A shame that you think its that's simple. I guess that's the limitations of thinking, heh? I would rally appreciate any tips to help me develop into a more rounded less opinionated fan. Although confident I will never concede my view to anyone who wants us to give up on the cups and will always think those that do are wrong. Quite simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 You seem to want to have your cake and eat it sunshine. One minute me saying we should have played a strong side on Wednesday night to win the cup which you equated to me saying playing young players don't matter now and they won't make the first team if we don't now you're saying, well it only helps a bit. See you can't answer how much Luke Shaw benefited from playing against Stevenage last season, so Which one is it? You seem to be struggle, must be all those straw mans arguments confusing you. Nor can you. But am happy to claim that experience of competitive football matters as it's impossible to reproduce anywhere else. Reserve football in front of one man and his dog might have been a poor, though workable substitute in the past; but even that's gone now. Perhaps we should be starting the likes of Reed tmrw than on Wednesday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 It wasn't playing the youngsters that make our cup sides weak though is it? It's playing Kelvin Davis, Hooiveld, Danny Fox, Tadanari Lee, Guly etc. How many "youth conveyor belt" type players played a significant amount of Wednesday's game? Two, Chambers and Reed. A very illuminating post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 I would rally appreciate any tips to help me develop into a more rounded less opinionated fan. Although confident I will never concede my view to anyone who wants us to give up on the cups and will always think those that do are wrong. Quite simple really. I've genuinely not got any idea of what you're trying to do with that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Nor can you. But am happy to claim that experience of competitive football matters as it's impossible to reproduce anywhere else. Reserve football in front of one man and his dog might have been a poor, though workable substitute in the past; but even that's gone now. Perhaps we should be starting the likes of Reed tmrw than on Wednesday? Straw Man Part III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Nor can you. But am happy to claim that experience of competitive football matters as it's impossible to reproduce anywhere else. Reserve football in front of one man and his dog might have been a poor, though workable substitute in the past; but even that's gone now. Perhaps we should be starting the likes of Reed tmrw than on Wednesday? Why not? We did it with JWP last season and Chambers this season. You think Reed is a great prospect but you think playing at home when we are in the form of our lives against Hull City is beyond him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 I've genuinely not got any idea of what you're trying to do with that post. That surprises me. Was it the typo on 'really'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 It wasn't playing the youngsters that make our cup sides weak though is it? It's playing Kelvin Davis, Hooiveld, Danny Fox, Tadanari Lee, Guly etc. How many "youth conveyor belt" type players played a significant amount of Wednesday's game? Two, Chambers and Reed. Agree with that -and would have preferred that we started more youngsters, though playing Reed in the middle of the park against an Italian international was something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 That surprises me. Was it the typo on 'really'? No, not so much. Just the overuse of effort into explaining what should be a straightforward point, really. But I feel we're digressing. On you go, fill the floor with your infectious humour once more and we'll move on, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Why not? We did it with JWP last season and Chambers this season. You think Reed is a great prospect but you think playing at home when we are in the form of our lives against Hull City is beyond him? Tsk CB, Chambers had the benefit of 6 minutes as a sub against Stevenage in the same game Shaw made his debut, they both learnt all they needed to that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom28 Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Sour Mash, Barry Sanchez, CB Fry, The Kraken and The9. And to a lesser extent Glasgow Saint. How do you all fancy a little bet? How about if Saints qualify for the Champions League this year, you all promise to remove yourselves and your negative, small time thoughts from this website forever? You're so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up that this should be an easy bet for you all to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Agree with that -and would have preferred that we started more youngsters, though playing Reed in the middle of the park against an Italian international was something. So the actual learning experience and the opportunity to blood all the kids that you claimed it was was a load of horse sh*t then. One had already made several first team starts this season in the league so we only had one true debutant. The rest of the team were experienced players not good enough, perhaps we should play them in the league instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 No, not so much. Just the overuse of effort into explaining what should be a straightforward point, really. But I feel we're digressing. On you go, fill the floor with your infectious humour once more and we'll move on, eh? I'm not even attempting to be ironic but you are confusing me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Sour Mash, Barry Sanchez, CB Fry, The Kraken and The9. And to a lesser extent Glasgow Saint. How do you all fancy a little bet? How about if Saints qualify for the Champions League this year, you all promise to remove yourselves and your negative, small time thoughts from this website forever? You're so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up that this should be an easy bet for you all to take. And if we don't qualify for the champions league will you, Nick G and the rest of the Imbicles that talk non stop boll+cks never post again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Tsk CB, Chambers had the benefit of 6 minutes as a sub against Stevenage in the same game Shaw made his debut, they both learnt all they needed to that night. I remember now. I remember saying that we simply must play the entire first eleven in that game and how dare we ever play any of these so called young players. Strawlock was the lone voice of reason that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Sour Mash, Barry Sanchez, CB Fry, The Kraken and The9. And to a lesser extent Glasgow Saint. How do you all fancy a little bet? How about if Saints qualify for the Champions League this year, you all promise to remove yourselves and your negative, small time thoughts from this website forever? You're so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up that this should be an easy bet for you all to take. I'll shall take that up, not too sure what it will prove but there we go, what happens if we dont qualify? Will you call yourself Tom29? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Sour Mash, Barry Sanchez, CB Fry, The Kraken and The9. And to a lesser extent Glasgow Saint. How do you all fancy a little bet? How about if Saints qualify for the Champions League this year, you all promise to remove yourselves and your negative, small time thoughts from this website forever? You're so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up that this should be an easy bet for you all to take. TOM28? How about you wake up. Where in your deluded world do you get the idea that I think I'm "so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up" from? Was it in the part of this season's prediction where I said we'd finish 11th? Or was it from tonight's post where I said that I thought that might be pessimistic? You absolute f*cking cretin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Why not? We did it with JWP last season and Chambers this season. You think Reed is a great prospect but you think playing at home when we are in the form of our lives against Hull City is beyond him? JWP was much more developed than Reed when he started at City. Remember it took him 10 months from making his full debut to starting in the league. IIRC JWP looked like a rabbit in the headlights when he made his debut in the league cup against Palace, though was much better in the FA Cup against Coventry. Reed needs the rest of the season and a preseason minimum before he's knocking on the door. But playing on Wednesday would have helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom28 Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 I'll shall take that up, not too sure what it will prove but there we go, what happens if we dont qualify? Will you call yourself Tom29? It won't prove anything. But I won't have to read your **** anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 TOM28? How about you wake up. Where in your deluded world do you get the idea that I think I'm "so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up" from? Was it in the part of this season's prediction where I said we'd finish 11th? Or was it from tonight's post where I said that I thought that might be pessimistic? You absolute f*cking cretin. For the record I've predicted 9th. 'Lucky to stay up' Some utter helmets on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 For the record I've predicted 9th. 'Lucky to stay up' Some utter helmets on here. I think Tom28 is lying about his age. He's clearly Tom13 and sulking because mummy and daddy sent him to bed early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom28 Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 And if we don't qualify for the champions league will you, Nick G and the rest of the Imbicles that talk non stop boll+cks never post again? If we get relegated as many of that lot would expect, I will leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 If we get relegated as many of that lot would expect, I will leave. Who has said we will be relegated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Sour Mash, Barry Sanchez, CB Fry, The Kraken and The9. And to a lesser extent Glasgow Saint. How do you all fancy a little bet? How about if Saints qualify for the Champions League this year, you all promise to remove yourselves and your negative, small time thoughts from this website forever? You're so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up that this should be an easy bet for you all to take. And if we don't qualify for the Champs League you'll never post on here again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Sour Mash, Barry Sanchez, CB Fry, The Kraken and The9. And to a lesser extent Glasgow Saint. How do you all fancy a little bet? How about if Saints qualify for the Champions League this year, you all promise to remove yourselves and your negative, small time thoughts from this website forever? You're so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up that this should be an easy bet for you all to take. I'll take a bet on you finding anywhere on this forum that I have said anything resembling "we'll be lucky to stay up" for this season. Or even last season. In fact, one of the central points of my disappointment in not going for it in the Carling Cup was the fact that I think we are at no danger of going down. Something I've repeated several times in the last couple of days. My prediction at start of season was somewhere between 8-12th. So remind me, what the fu ck is your point again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom28 Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 For the record I've predicted 9th. 'Lucky to stay up' Some utter helmets on here. Pretty sure I didn't mention you Turkish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 If we get relegated as many of that lot would expect, I will leave. Been down the pub tonight pal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom28 Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 TOM28? How about you wake up. Where in your deluded world do you get the idea that I think I'm "so sure we're going to fail and that you think we'll be lucky if we just manage to stay up" from? Was it in the part of this season's prediction where I said we'd finish 11th? Or was it from tonight's post where I said that I thought that might be pessimistic? You absolute f*cking cretin. Calm down sweetheart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 JWP was much more developed than Reed when he started at City. Remember it took him 10 months from making his full debut to starting in the league. IIRC JWP looked like a rabbit in the headlights when he made his debut in the league cup against Palace, though was much better in the FA Cup against Coventry. Reed needs the rest of the season and a preseason minimum before he's knocking on the door. But playing on Wednesday would have helped. So we agree then, Wednesday night wasn't the grand promotion of all our promising youngsters to first team glory that you made it out to be. It was ONE of them making their debut surrounded by other senior pros not good enough. What was that you were saying about straw mans arguements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Calm down sweetheart.I wish I could be as calm as you Tommy, asking for other nasty people to get off the forum because they make you so vewy vewy upset. I want to cry I'm so angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 So we agree then, Wednesday night wasn't the grand promotion of all our promising youngsters to first team glory that you made it out to be. It was ONE of them making their debut surrounded by other senior pros not good enough. What was that you were saying about straw mans arguements? Is that Straw Man Part IV for Strawlock? Top work for an hour or so of M-boarder. He's normally alright, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom28 Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 Damn, I forgot Dalek off my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 It won't prove anything. But I won't have to read your **** anymore. Have you been in the sherry and port cabinet or simply minesweeping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 8 November, 2013 Share Posted 8 November, 2013 So the actual learning experience and the opportunity to blood all the kids that you claimed it was was a load of horse sh*t then. One had already made several first team starts this season in the league so we only had one true debutant. The rest of the team were experienced players not good enough, perhaps we should play them in the league instead? It obviously depends on how far developed youngsters are - perhaps the conveyor belt isn't as chockablock as is made out. At the same time, the manager has a squad to balance -players to keep match fit who could be starting in the league or the cup if there are injuries or suspensions. In the real world, they're called trade-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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