Why being a striker at SFC is tougher than most

[Giordano]

MP said in his post match interviews that our first defender was Rickie Lambert.

 

So, Nicola is talking with a potential brazilian wonder player and he says oh by the way, i know you can dribble around trafalgar square eight times and shoot from the half way line but the key thing is that i need you to be our first defender".

 

Hmmm....i cannot see too many strikers going "yes please, i know im the main goal-scorer where i am right now and that is why you like me but you also want me now to be the best striker for doing doggies in the league, AS WELL"

 

I love our style of play. But players like MLT would never get near this squad. In fact there is a long list of strikers that just cannot ever being considered as being either willing or able to play to our system. And even if they are able then it would also take a bucketful of cash to encourage them to be willing to run their tush off for little Southampton.

 

So when i see that Osvaldo or Jrod or even Rickie are criticized for profligate finishing, I wonder if people realise that they actually run much more than the average striker and do more defending than the average striker so will be that much more fatigued than the average striker when they do get a sniff of goal?

 

Any NEW striker we pick up in January is going to have to be one hell of a special player, with frighteningly high fitness levels, high football intelligence, great technical ability, superhuman mental strength and ridiculously high work-rate as his number one talents. And hopefully he can score as well. Ignoring young up and coming forwards for just a moment , which current strikers in World Football do you think could play as our lead striker in MoPo's team? Im struggling but two obvious ones are Rooney and Tevez.

[Glasgow_Saint]

These comments surprised me as he clearly went after OsWaldo after working with him before - you would think he was aware of his limitations and assets.

 

OsWaldo’s strengths are not defending + chasing + harassing. He’s a more old skool striker who hangs on the last defender looking for through balls.

[Giordano]

Let me rephrase the question actually to make it more saints relevant.

 

Which Saints striker from the past would be able to play in the current team/squad in this MoPo style?

 

I think:

 

Keegan and Steve Moran off top of my head. Least likely to ever get a game : Frank Worthington.

Edited 29 October, 2013 by Giordano
improved the OP question

[FloridaMarlin]

Nothing new here. All managers will say that you defend from the front, and most strikers will close down the opposition. Very few will not bother at all.

 

Questions have been posed in the past about Lambert's fitness/weight, but nobody can heap enough priase on his attitude. When we were promoted and he knew he was going to be a Premier League striker, even under Adkins he upped his game.

 

It's a testament to MoPo's motivational powers that Lambert has upped his game again, and like everyone else, has bought into the team ethic.

 

Turn your original premise around. Rather than say the Brazilian wonder player will not be happy being asked to defend and do doggies, ask whether we would sign that sort of player in the first place.

 

Besides, as the weekend showed emphatically, our pressing game is not about one striker running down the opposition back four.

 

We press in groups, so if Lambert is the first contact, he goes knowing that two or three others will be on the scene pretty quickly.

 

You could see Berbatov getting more and more brassed off as the game progressed. He is a lazy herbert, but his frustration was increased as he could see that when he went to close our defenders down, he was on his own and they were comfortably able to play it round him.

 

There's a difference between a striker being the first defender of a group and the first defender while the rest of the team sit back 40 yards from him.

 

And I would imagine the transfer committee have identified any number of players who fit the template. That's the simplistic beauty of it. Any striker coming in would have to fit into the system, we wouldn't suddenly start ripping up the plan by building a team around him.

[Glasgow_Saint]

Which Saints striker from the past would be able to play in the current team/squad in this MoPo style?

 

 

[Turkish]

Nothing new here. All managers will say that you defend from the front, and most strikers will close down the opposition. Very few will not bother at all.

 

Questions have been posed in the past about Lambert's fitness/weight, but nobody can heap enough priase on his attitude. When we were promoted and he knew he was going to be a Premier League striker, even under Adkins he upped his game.

 

It's a testament to MoPo's motivational powers that Lambert has upped his game again, and like everyone else, has bought into the team ethic.

 

Turn your original premise around. Rather than say the Brazilian wonder player will not be happy being asked to defend and do doggies, ask whether we would sign that sort of player in the first place.

 

Besides, as the weekend showed emphatically, our pressing game is not about one striker running down the opposition back four.

 

We press in groups, so if Lambert is the first contact, he goes knowing that two or three others will be on the scene pretty quickly.

 

You could see Berbatov getting more and more brassed off as the game progressed. He is a lazy herbert, but his frustration was increased as he could see that when he went to close our defenders down, he was on his own and they were comfortably able to play it round him.

 

There's a difference between a striker being the first defender of a group and the first defender while the rest of the team sit back 40 yards from him.

 

And I would imagine the transfer committee have identified any number of players who fit the template. That's the simplistic beauty of it. Any striker coming in would have to fit into the system, we wouldn't suddenly start ripping up the plan by building a team around him.

 

Leandre Damiao?

[Bucks Saint]

Guly gets a game now. just saying

[Giordano]

Brett is a good shout. And Guly plays when he does probably for EXACTLY that reason.

 

I wondered if Damiao fancied running around lots. Floridamartin is totally correct- its about group doggies of course so its the whole team harrying, but Mopo still DID say Rickie was his first defender and being that he is the most centrally orientated of our fluid attacking line up he is likely to be doing the most doggies... Someone remarked to me yesterday for instance that they rarely had seen an England number 9 do as much running/harrying work as SRL did away to Ukraine.

[Barry Sanchez]

Bayern Munich and Barcelona play this type of football and have done for years, they score a few goals.................

[Wrensup]

Bayern Munich and Barcelona play this type of football and have done for years, they score a few goals.................

 

 

Slight difference between the likes of messi, pedro, Fàbregas, iniesta, muller, Kroos, mandzukic, Ribery and our lot Bazza

[Barry Sanchez]

Slight difference between the likes of messi, pedro, Fàbregas, iniesta, muller, Kroos, mandzukic, Ribery and our lot Bazza

 

The way our clappers go on I think they have Messi and Ribery as on a par with Guly and Ramirez........................

[Fowllyd]

These comments surprised me as he clearly went after OsWaldo after working with him before - you would think he was aware of his limitations and assets.

 

OsWaldo’s strengths are not defending + chasing + harassing. He’s a more old skool striker who hangs on the last defender looking for through balls.

 

Do you have some congenital defect which renders you unable to spell people's names correctly? Or are you just a f*ckwit who thinks it's funny to do that? Or is it that you suffer from the congenital defect of being a f*ckwit?

[Bobbyboy]

The key point to me is that Rickie knows he won't be alone in his chasing. One of the most interesting and insightful pieces of commentary from the NBC coverage on Saturday was Alro White and Lee Dixon (no, seriously) talking about what the trigger is for the Saints forwards/midfield to start the pressing - eg is it the first sideways pass by the opposition, or is it that everyone watches Lambert and when he goes, they all go. Dixon talked about how that was George Graham's big thing at Arsenal, getting the defence in particular to stay together like that - everyone knew what the trigger was and they were so well-drilled that it worked. If it doesn't work it's a farce of course, and you end up either with Rickie doing everything on his own Berbatov-style, or with big gaps everywhere.

 

Anyway, it made me think rather more than your average Clive Tiddlesly commentary ever does.

[Saint Troy]

The key point to me is that Rickie knows he won't be alone in his chasing. One of the most interesting and insightful pieces of commentary from the NBC coverage on Saturday was Alro White and Lee Dixon (no, seriously) talking about what the trigger is for the Saints forwards/midfield to start the pressing - eg is it the first sideways pass by the opposition, or is it that everyone watches Lambert and when he goes, they all go. Dixon talked about how that was George Graham's big thing at Arsenal, getting the defence in particular to stay together like that - everyone knew what the trigger was and they were so well-drilled that it worked. If it doesn't work it's a farce of course, and you end up either with Rickie doing everything on his own Berbatov-style, or with big gaps everywhere.

 

Anyway, it made me think rather more than your average Clive Tiddlesly commentary ever does.

 

I agree that this is interesting -there was an interview with Morgan v recently that (although the translation was very bad) was really interesting. It gave the impression there was more than one platform for the press but when I look at it I do sometimes wonder how this is triggered. Can anyone shed any light on this? I sometimes wonder about the amount of times we press hard when a player is in his own half receiving the ball whilst facing his own goal, could be nonsense ive made up though and be interested to know if anyone knows more or has some guesses

[Giordano]

The key point to me is that Rickie knows he won't be alone in his chasing. One of the most interesting and insightful pieces of commentary from the NBC coverage on Saturday was Alro White and Lee Dixon (no, seriously) talking about what the trigger is for the Saints forwards/midfield to start the pressing - eg is it the first sideways pass by the opposition, or is it that everyone watches Lambert and when he goes, they all go. Dixon talked about how that was George Graham's big thing at Arsenal, getting the defence in particular to stay together like that - everyone knew what the trigger was and they were so well-drilled that it worked. If it doesn't work it's a farce of course, and you end up either with Rickie doing everything on his own Berbatov-style, or with big gaps everywhere.

 

Anyway, it made me think rather more than your average Clive Tiddlesly commentary ever does.

 

So what did they identify as the trigger and how to execute this tactic?

 

I'm not a footie coach but trying to think logically id guess it might be:

 

(1) We lose possession ( assuming in oppositions half - if we lose possession in our own half i think there is a variation i have not worked through yet).

 

(2).Our player who lost possession must immediately be the first player to attempt to regain (if possible) possession or restrict or stop dangerous onward ball distribution by the guy who dispossessed him. ~ He must do this automatically without hesitation as every millisecond is crucial. No rolling around feeling sorry for himself or referee shouting or anything - just on autopilot go straight into ball retrieval mode.

 

(3). If that is not possible (he may be on the floor/tackled/injured/wrong-footed/out of position/ tired/decided to roll around and berate referee instead because he has lost concentration or for whatever other reason), then it must be our next player closest to the opposition player in possession.

 

(4).The player nearest to the back-up presser, OR the back-up presser must intelligently decide whether to attack the ball/press the opposition player or to close down the opponents teammates who are the most immediate short passing options. This is based upon the theory that by forcing a long ball pass we will have a good chance to get the ball back straight away - so we don't mind if they hoof it under pressure from us as its unlikely to be a killer pass and more likely to be picked up by our players somehow.

 

(5) The 3rd,4th and 5th nearest saints players immediately (instantaneously or near as dammit- milliseconds are vital again here) conduct a spatial awareness exercise calculating key distances and angles, likely opposition player movements, likely ball pass trajectory, time of release and speeds - and then travel and position themselves between ball and likely target pass accordingly.

 

(6) In the event of this not recovering the ball through tackle, interception or recovery of a hoof ball then these 5 players must conduct an orderly retreat into defensive positions, again taking all angles and likely pass destinations forwards primarily at this secondary juncture, into account. In phase 1-5 forward sideways and backward passes by the opposition must be anticipated, but if this fails then a more clearly defensive / damage limitation approach kicks in and they adjust to defend against direct forward passes primarily until we are into our (agreed in advance) preferred out-of-possession-in-our-own-half defensive formation.

 

Does that sound like what Mopo tells them to do?

[Winchester Red]

So can Osvaldo play this system or does MP have a completely different role in mind for him?

 

You can't escape the facts.

 

MP knew what he would get from Osvaldo and chose to bring him here.

Osvaldo knew what would be required of him and chose to come.

 

I guess we have to trust that MP knows how to get what he wants out of Osvaldo (and personally I think MP has earned that trust and people shouldn't judge whether this transfer is a success or not until at least the end of the season)

[dubai_phil]

I got some stick here and elsewhere for pointing out that in the England game against Ukraine Rickie was our best defender - worked REALLY hard to close down their two CB's forcing them to resort to hoofball.

 

Something Rooney and the others would not have had the brains (or legs) to do.

[david in sweden]

Brett is a good shout. And Guly plays when he does probably for EXACTLY that reason.

 

I wondered if Damiao fancied running around lots. Floridamartin is totally correct- its about group doggies of course so its the whole team harrying, but Mopo still DID say Rickie was his first defender and being that he is the most centrally orientated of our fluid attacking line up he is likely to be doing the most doggies... Someone remarked to me yesterday for instance that they rarely had seen an England number 9 do as much running/harrying work as SRL did away to Ukraine.

 

 

...if Berbatov had done his job (marking his man for the corner) ....things might have been different, as it was ......Rickie virtually had a free header,

 

(**No criticism he took it well and it looked great.)

[shurlock]

Strange OP

 

Damiao didn't come here because we weren't big or prestigious enough. His agent said as much.

 

Second the OP confuses physicality with work rate. Spanish/Latino footballers may not be the most physical in the up-and-at-em sense but they've always been energetic - let's not forget that the pressing game hails from Latin America.

[The9]

MP said in his post match interviews that our first defender was Rickie Lambert.

 

So, Nicola is talking with a potential brazilian wonder player and he says oh by the way, i know you can dribble around trafalgar square eight times and shoot from the half way line but the key thing is that i need you to be our first defender".

 

Hmmm....i cannot see too many strikers going "yes please, i know im the main goal-scorer where i am right now and that is why you like me but you also want me now to be the best striker for doing doggies in the league, AS WELL"

 

I love our style of play. But players like MLT would never get near this squad. In fact there is a long list of strikers that just cannot ever being considered as being either willing or able to play to our system. And even if they are able then it would also take a bucketful of cash to encourage them to be willing to run their tush off for little Southampton.

 

So when i see that Osvaldo or Jrod or even Rickie are criticized for profligate finishing, I wonder if people realise that they actually run much more than the average striker and do more defending than the average striker so will be that much more fatigued than the average striker when they do get a sniff of goal?

 

Any NEW striker we pick up in January is going to have to be one hell of a special player, with frighteningly high fitness levels, high football intelligence, great technical ability, superhuman mental strength and ridiculously high work-rate as his number one talents. And hopefully he can score as well. Ignoring young up and coming forwards for just a moment , which current strikers in World Football do you think could play as our lead striker in MoPo's team? Im struggling but two obvious ones are Rooney and Tevez.

 

I've never known a time when strikers weren't expected to defend, and even by the mid-90s it became obvious that any half-decent side would and could exploit non-defending strikers. You simply can't afford to have players who don't pull their weight at all defensively at any level of professional football, or the side just gets pulled all over the place - most obviously (in a standard 4-4-2 as it often was then) by full-backs getting into the opposition half unchallenged, and then in a 2-on-1 against the wide midfielder. By then the attacking side is already approaching the attacking third and the defence is short.

 

Obviously we work harder trying to get the ball back high up the pitch than most in addition to this, but this is the main reason people have been saying Lambert isn't well suited to the system, and presumably why you think we're signing someone else in January. It's the reason Berbatov isn't at Man U any more as well.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

So what did they identify as the trigger and how to execute this tactic?

 

I'm not a footie coach but trying to think logically id guess it might be:

 

(1) We lose possession ( assuming in oppositions half - if we lose possession in our own half i think there is a variation i have not worked through yet).

 

(2).Our player who lost possession must immediately be the first player to attempt to regain (if possible) possession or restrict or stop dangerous onward ball distribution by the guy who dispossessed him. ~ He must do this automatically without hesitation as every millisecond is crucial. No rolling around feeling sorry for himself or referee shouting or anything - just on autopilot go straight into ball retrieval mode.

 

(3). If that is not possible (he may be on the floor/tackled/injured/wrong-footed/out of position/ tired/decided to roll around and berate referee instead because he has lost concentration or for whatever other reason), then it must be our next player closest to the opposition player in possession.

 

(4).The player nearest to the back-up presser, OR the back-up presser must intelligently decide whether to attack the ball/press the opposition player or to close down the opponents teammates who are the most immediate short passing options. This is based upon the theory that by forcing a long ball pass we will have a good chance to get the ball back straight away - so we don't mind if they hoof it under pressure from us as its unlikely to be a killer pass and more likely to be picked up by our players somehow.

 

(5) The 3rd,4th and 5th nearest saints players immediately (instantaneously or near as dammit- milliseconds are vital again here) conduct a spatial awareness exercise calculating key distances and angles, likely opposition player movements, likely ball pass trajectory, time of release and speeds - and then travel and position themselves between ball and likely target pass accordingly.

 

(6) In the event of this not recovering the ball through tackle, interception or recovery of a hoof ball then these 5 players must conduct an orderly retreat into defensive positions, again taking all angles and likely pass destinations forwards primarily at this secondary juncture, into account. In phase 1-5 forward sideways and backward passes by the opposition must be anticipated, but if this fails then a more clearly defensive / damage limitation approach kicks in and they adjust to defend against direct forward passes primarily until we are into our (agreed in advance) preferred out-of-possession-in-our-own-half defensive formation.

 

Does that sound like what Mopo tells them to do?

 

Yes. Apart from step 5 sounds a lot more complicated than it is, steps 1-4 sound a lot more straightforward than they are and I'm not sure if Step 6 quite exists in that sense.

 

Ooooh, new editing stuff, when did we get a template upgrade?

Edited 29 October, 2013 by The9

[OldNick]

we are having trouble scoring with quality forwards,let alone with this joker. Do not confuse running around with a decent forward.

[The9]

we are having trouble scoring with quality forwards,let alone with this joker. Do not confuse running around with a decent forward.

 

Ormerod and Beattie were absolutely the forerunners for the kind of high-press we're doing now. What they didn't have was 3-4 midfielders launching up the pitch in support of the pressure, but we scored a load of goals from Brett alone closing down and working his balls off.

[OldNick]

Ormerod and Beattie were absolutely the forerunners for the kind of high-press we're doing now. What they didn't have was 3-4 midfielders launching up the pitch in support of the pressure, but we scored a load of goals from Brett alone closing down and working his balls off.

IMO He was poor and it was down to Beatties purple patch,when he was scoring from all angles did it cover Ormerods inadequacies in front of goal.

[ericb]

Shearer and to a lesser extent Danny Wallace would've fitted our current style perfectly. Wonder how much their equivalents would cost now though

[kwsaint]

Beattie in the 2002-03 season would have fitted the system really well. Strachan said the best way to play Beattie was to get him really fit and get him hassling defenders. Not sure that he would have fitted in the current dressing room very well though - too full of himself

[UpweySaint]

So what did they identify as the trigger and how to execute this tactic?

 

I'm not a footie coach but trying to think logically id guess it might be:

 

(1) We lose possession ( assuming in oppositions half - if we lose possession in our own half i think there is a variation i have not worked through yet).

 

(2).Our player who lost possession must immediately be the first player to attempt to regain (if possible) possession or restrict or stop dangerous onward ball distribution by the guy who dispossessed him. ~ He must do this automatically without hesitation as every millisecond is crucial. No rolling around feeling sorry for himself or referee shouting or anything - just on autopilot go straight into ball retrieval mode.

 

(3). If that is not possible (he may be on the floor/tackled/injured/wrong-footed/out of position/ tired/decided to roll around and berate referee instead because he has lost concentration or for whatever other reason), then it must be our next player closest to the opposition player in possession.

 

(4).The player nearest to the back-up presser, OR the back-up presser must intelligently decide whether to attack the ball/press the opposition player or to close down the opponents teammates who are the most immediate short passing options. This is based upon the theory that by forcing a long ball pass we will have a good chance to get the ball back straight away - so we don't mind if they hoof it under pressure from us as its unlikely to be a killer pass and more likely to be picked up by our players somehow.

 

(5) The 3rd,4th and 5th nearest saints players immediately (instantaneously or near as dammit- milliseconds are vital again here) conduct a spatial awareness exercise calculating key distances and angles, likely opposition player movements, likely ball pass trajectory, time of release and speeds - and then travel and position themselves between ball and likely target pass accordingly.

 

(6) In the event of this not recovering the ball through tackle, interception or recovery of a hoof ball then these 5 players must conduct an orderly retreat into defensive positions, again taking all angles and likely pass destinations forwards primarily at this secondary juncture, into account. In phase 1-5 forward sideways and backward passes by the opposition must be anticipated, but if this fails then a more clearly defensive / damage limitation approach kicks in and they adjust to defend against direct forward passes primarily until we are into our (agreed in advance) preferred out-of-possession-in-our-own-half defensive formation.

 

Does that sound like what Mopo tells them to do?

 

Just to add on - Dixon identified the trigger as being when the closest man to the ball decides to press others went with him, used an analogy of them being tethered by a length of rope and that it only worked if they stayed as such. Has to be said Dixon and his co-commentator (whose name escapes me!) were very complimentary and insightful.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I don't understand the question, as if Rickie Lambert can be physically trained to fulfil the role then I would say just about any striker can as long as they have the appetite and desire.

[saintquin]

I think Ian Rush would have been perfect in this team.

[austsaint]

Rasiak may have struggled.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Rasiak may have struggled.

[Smirking_Saint]

IMO He was poor and it was down to Beatties purple patch,when he was scoring from all angles did it cover Ormerods inadequacies in front of goal.

 

Utter kak, without Ormerod working his nuts off beattie would have been shown up as the inadequate striker that he was. Yes he had a purple patch but a lot of the good we did that season came from a very hard working Brett which allowed us to pressure the opposition.

[OldNick]

Utter kak, without Ormerod working his nuts off beattie would have been shown up as the inadequate striker that he was. Yes he had a purple patch but a lot of the good we did that season came from a very hard working Brett which allowed us to pressure the opposition.

In your opinion only, I would run my socks off as would many others That does not make you any good and his goalscoring record in the PL was poor. As for BT, no doubt his fellow forward did help but he also scored from long distance and free kicks etc and that had SFA to do with Ohmygod

[Glasgow_Saint]

A young Robbie Keane or Craig Bellamy would suit us

[aintforever]

Utter kak, without Ormerod working his nuts off beattie would have been shown up as the inadequate striker that he was. Yes he had a purple patch but a lot of the good we did that season came from a very hard working Brett which allowed us to pressure the opposition.

 

No one who has scored 90 Premier League goals could be classed as an inadequate striker.

[Smirking_Saint]

No one who has scored 90 Premier League goals could be classed as an inadequate striker.

 

His touch was aweful and only really looked good for 1 1/2 seasons for us, he really wasnt that good