Gaston On His Way Out?

[Saint Without a Halo]

In my opinion you shouldn't have to pay upwards of 10 mil for a player who will need several seasons to realise his potential.

 

 

I think its called investment when you buy based on future potential and reward. Very common in most businesses! The trick is to be patient to get your anticipated returns! The more the potential the greater the invested price.

[buctootim]

I think its called investment when you buy based on future potential and reward. Very common in most businesses! The trick is to be patient to get your anticipated returns! The more the potential the greater the invested price.

 

Its called suckering. £12m for a player who has contributed little, has cost over £2m in wages and will likely sell for less than we paid for him.

[RobM]

It never ceases to amaze me how people associate ability with laziness. If you've got the ability you are by default seen as lazy and if you've not got the ability people clutch at straws to argue you're hard working!

 

In the champo Guly was seen as a reasonably talented but very lazy and cowardly player.

 

That's a bizarre conclusion to come to. Ability has never been 'defaulted' to laziness... we have a team full of talented players and they aren't ever called lazy, as they are anything but. Even in the post you've quoted there isn't one reference to laziness, rather a comparison of two very different playing styles. We even worship Sir.Rickie, who isn't the most mobile and doesn't run around all game, but isn't ever called lazy.

 

It is OK to be critical of players if they aren't performing, or aren't performing in the way we require.

[norwaysaint]

Am I the only one who thinks Ramirez' "laziness" is starting to get a bit exaggerated at the moment?

 

i may not get to see him in the flesh as often as many on here, but when I've seen him on Telly He doesn't seem that lazy. Not a workhorse, but not as bad as he's being painted in his absence.

 

If he's not being picked for whatever reason, I'm sure he'll be keen to move on. I think he's a very good player, but if MP doesn't find a place for him in his plans, what's the point?

[Saint_clark]

He's definitely not as lazy as people make out. It's the default view point for foreigners who aren't on fire.

I've actually seen him track back and defend just as much as any other player.

[Window Cleaner]

Am I the only one who thinks Ramirez' "laziness" is starting to get a bit exaggerated at the moment?

 

i may not get to see him in the flesh as often as many on here, but when I've seen him on Telly He doesn't seem that lazy. Not a workhorse, but not as bad as he's being painted in his absence.

 

If he's not being picked for whatever reason, I'm sure he'll be keen to move on. I think he's a very good player, but if MP doesn't find a place for him in his plans, what's the point?

 

 

The problem is in the system, as explained by Morgan to L'Equipe at the end of last week and badly translated on this forum, the

wide midfielders have a big big role on defence when the wing backs ( well Shaw and Clyne anyway) go forward as planned. We've seen Lallana defending more and more and deeper and deeper, why I've even seen him effecting sliding tackles in our own box. MP obviously doesn't consider that Gaston is either fit enough,energetic enough or inclined enough to fulfill that role so he prefers Davis or JWP or even JRod who've shown more affinity for the role. When we eventually decide to go with either Dani or Rckie but not both the system will change and there will be more room to play a player like Gaston.

[Saint Charlie]

Ramirez main problem is that he is best in the no 10 role, not out wide, and with the signing of Osvaldo we have changed to playing with two strikers.

 

You can't knock his form this season as he has barely played in the league, but scored in both cup games.

 

And of course, whilst the team is playing well its not going to be easy to get in.

 

Would be good to see him get a run of games before being written off.

[Junior Mullet]

Hes clearly a very talented player but I just can't see how he fits in an MP team. Our side is about workrate a closing teams down and that isn't Ramriez game. He didn't even get into the 18 last week and a telling game for me was West Ham, it was crying out for some one like him but MP left him on the bench preferring JWP instead. It'll be a shame if he goes as the flashes of class we've seen from him have been exciting but I can't see him fitting into the way we play now.

 

Spot on and add to that an appauling temperament and disciplinary record for someone playing in that position. Opposition players know how to get the best of him. You simply can't let teams get the better of you so cheaply in the Prem. Now Osvaldo on the other hand has impressed me immensely with his temperament.

[buctootim]

Spot on and add to that an appauling temperament and disciplinary record for someone playing in that position. Opposition players know how to get the best of him. You simply can't let teams get the better of you so cheaply in the Prem. Now Osvaldo on the other hand has impressed me immensely with his temperament.

 

Its not just the way we play, but the way English football as a whole plays. You don't get much thinking time on the ball whoever you're playing.

[Junior Mullet]

Am I the only one who thinks Ramirez' "laziness" is starting to get a bit exaggerated at the moment?

 

i may not get to see him in the flesh as often as many on here, but when I've seen him on Telly He doesn't seem that lazy. Not a workhorse, but not as bad as he's being painted in his absence.

 

If he's not being picked for whatever reason, I'm sure he'll be keen to move on. I think he's a very good player, but if MP doesn't find a place for him in his plans, what's the point?

 

Yes, lazy is the wrong term. MP demands high tempo and heavy work rate - the shift Lallana put in last week is a perfect example - and I just don't think Gaston is suited to that. We need the team to play in units or the whole thing breaks down.

Gaston may appear to some to be lazy because he doesn't join in with this style of play, but I wouldn't call him lazy, no.

 

It is interesting however that neither manager seemed convinced he was able to play more than about 60 mins. I have wondered whether there is a questionmark over his natural fitness. This would of course be highlighted in a squad as fit as ours.

 

He'll be a good player for some other team and I will not be sad to see him go. Best cash in now before his value falls further.

[Junior Mullet]

Its not just the way we play, but the way English football as a whole plays. You don't get much thinking time on the ball whoever you're playing.

 

It's very largely due to the way we play. The pace and ferocity of the Prem is secondary (in fact I think there is more time and space in the Prem than most people give it credit - the influx of foreign players, styles and managers has seen to that). A good technical player, which he is, will make space and will cope in tight situations.

 

He isnt right for us.

[buctootim]

It's very largely due to the way we play. The pace and ferocity of the Prem is secondary (in fact I think there is more time and space in the Prem than most people give it credit - the influx of foreign players, styles and managers has seen to that). A good technical player, which he is, will make space and will cope in tight situations.

 

He isnt right for us.

 

Tim Vickery had it right at 5.28, and it seems Liverpool and Spurs also agreed. http://talksport.com/radio/hawksbee-and-jacobs/120607/vickery-why-ramirez-would-not-be-good-signing-spurs-173873

[The9]

In the champo Guly was seen as a reasonably talented but very lazy and cowardly player.

 

...by idiots.

[Saint Charlie]

Tim Vickery had it right at 5.28, and it seems Liverpool and Spurs also agreed. http://talksport.com/radio/hawksbee-and-jacobs/120607/vickery-why-ramirez-would-not-be-good-signing-spurs-173873

 

I'm just getting an advert for Selco?

[buctootim]

I'm just getting an advert for Selco?

 

not sure why that is, I have adblock plus on my pc (blocks ads). Does the clip not come up after the ad?

 

 

Edit. How about this other interview? http://talksport.com/radio/extra-time/120904/vickery-ramirez-may-not-be-ready-premier-league-180224

Edited 14 October, 2013 by buctootim

[Saint_clark]

Spot on and add to that an appauling temperament and disciplinary record for someone playing in that position. Opposition players know how to get the best of him. You simply can't let teams get the better of you so cheaply in the Prem. Now Osvaldo on the other hand has impressed me immensely with his temperament.

 

You mean his incredible ONE red card for accidentally whacking someone with his arm? I've seen accidental elbows like that all the time that never get given, and some not so accidental when jumping for the ball.

And it's amazing that you're comparing that to Osvaldo who has played less than 10 games and looked pretty feisty himself...

[Bearsy]

I'm just getting an advert for Selco?

 

[The9]

Am I the only one who thinks Ramirez' "laziness" is starting to get a bit exaggerated at the moment?

 

i may not get to see him in the flesh as often as many on here, but when I've seen him on Telly He doesn't seem that lazy. Not a workhorse, but not as bad as he's being painted in his absence.

 

If he's not being picked for whatever reason, I'm sure he'll be keen to move on. I think he's a very good player, but if MP doesn't find a place for him in his plans, what's the point?

 

He's not lazy (just as Guly isn't) and when needed he works back, but as with many players his style of movement is effortless and can make it look like he's not trying.

 

However, he is lacking the strength to hold players off and gets leaned off the ball a bit easily on occasion. He also needs to learn an alternative trick to the one where he rolls a player using the outside of his foot, in order to make defenders thing he might occasionally go the other way - as it is if he gets the ball with his back to goal he always turns the same way and that makes him easy to read. If anything, he lacks the exaggeration needed for people to buy some of his dummies - a "proper" shoulder throw instead of a half-hearted one which the defender can ignore.

 

The final improvement is concentration, at first I though his lack of complete passes in the attacking third was due to us not having players who could control or utilise the passes he was seeing, but his slapdash passing in the Bristol City game makes it a concentration issue for me - he needs to ensure the simple passes get there just as much as the clever and more technically difficult ones.

 

Also, we should give up on him taking of set pieces, JWP does it better, with more pace, accuracy and success already, and rarely hits the first defender.

 

He's not there yet but he's certainly got potential. Somehow I think it's unlikely we see the benefits of that in the Premier League with the rest of the side doing well - but he might be instrumental in a Cup run or two.

[The9]

You mean his incredible ONE red card for accidentally whacking someone with his arm? I've seen accidental elbows like that all the time that never get given, and some not so accidental when jumping for the ball.

And it's amazing that you're comparing that to Osvaldo who has played less than 10 games and looked pretty feisty himself...

 

I'm with you on this one, Gaston's red card was vaguely unlucky as he was being fouled (not dissimilar to Lambert's in Brighton a couple of years ago), Osvaldo's already had a couple of potential red cards not seen and has been a tad on the jammy side, I know which one of them I think has the dodgy temperament, and it's the one who's been known to punch a teammate.

[Saint Garrett]

Surprised anyone is calling him lazy - he's not lazy at all, he just doesn't go round flying into challenges.

[shurlock]

He's not lazy and works hard off the ball.

 

That said, don't buy the argument that the BPL and the style of football are somehow a struggle. He has had a tendency to drift out of games whenever I've seen him play for Uruguay. Indeed, his form for club and country is strikingly similar.

 

And for a player who's meant to be so skillful, he doesn't half give the ball away cheaply. Would be understandable if it was because he wa trying things but often it's not. No excuses.

 

Ironically, NA seemed to get more out of Gaston than MP.

[Window Cleaner]

He's not lazy and works hard off the ball.

 

That said, don't buy the argument that the BPL and the style of football are somehow a struggle. He has had a tendency to drift out of games whenever I've seen him play for Uruguay. Indeed, his form for club and country is strikingly similar.

 

And for a player who's meant to be so skillful, he doesn't half give the ball away cheaply. Would be understandable if it was because he wa trying things but often it's not. No excuses.

 

Ironically, NA seemed to get more out of Gaston than MP.

 

Probably gives the ball away occasionally for exactly the same reason as Wanyama and no doubt Osvaldo. They just aren't used to being pressed and harassed all of the time. Only way to learn is by playing though. Gaston was sort of getting into his stride last season and then got sent off, however some of his actions are just red cards waiting to happen, most refs would have sent him off for his single legged Arkwright on Wilshere last year.

[Highfield Saint]

Morgan could have been sent off last game, Osvaldo could have been sent off in his first game. Poor discipline for one player seems to be commitment for another.

 

Giving the ball away? Yes sometimes but of course none of the other players do. In fact the 83% pass completion is entirely due to Gaston even when he isnt playing.

[Glasgow_Saint]

someone said that Gaston only has a 6% successful pass completion rate............. is that true?

[Tony F]

Nah - I think he meant pass "attempt"ion rate......

[Lets B Avenue]

someone said that Gaston only has a 6% successful pass completion rate............. is that true?

 

Probably not. But don't let that stop you quoting it as a fact in the rest of your diatribes.

[SuperMikey]

He doesn't want to be here, Pochettino doesn't want him here, Napoli want him, he wants to go to Napoli.

 

Don't see the issue here, just up to Cortese to get a good deal for the club and we can re-invest the money in a player who suits our system better.

[Window Cleaner]

He doesn't want to be here, Pochettino doesn't want him here, Napoli want him, he wants to go to Napoli.

 

Don't see the issue here, just up to Cortese to get a good deal for the club and we can re-invest the money in a player who suits our system better.

 

why would Benitez want him at Naples ? Token Uruguayan or something. Naples are a decent side, they're our Arsenal you know, if you're an agent and you've a player who wants a move you spread it around that Arsenal (or in this case Naples) are interested.

[krissyboy31]

someone said that Gaston only has a 6% successful pass completion rate............. is that true?

 

Don't be ridiculous. Benali had a better pass rate than that.

[Barry Sanchez]

He is a talented player but he has been absolute ******** for us so flog him and move on.

[egg]

He is a talented player but he has been absolute ******** for us so flog him and move on.

 

Agreed. Whether his heart's not in it and/or he just doesn't suit our style I'm not sure. Either way, he's had a season to step up to the plate and enough is enough.

[Dig Dig]

Why enough is enough? He's not costing us points or games.

[Pastor Patrón]

someone said that Gaston only has a 6% successful pass completion rate............. is that true?

 

I believe the correct stat is 5.6% so even then he flatters to deceive

[channonwindmill]

Probably gives the ball away occasionally for exactly the same reason as Wanyama and no doubt Osvaldo. They just aren't used to being pressed and harassed all of the time. Only way to learn is by playing though. Gaston was sort of getting into his stride last season and then got sent off, however some of his actions are just red cards waiting to happen, most refs would have sent him off for his single legged Arkwright on Wilshere last year.

 

WC you talk a lot of sense and I have a lot of time for your posts, but there's part of this that I have an issue with: Under MP we're now known for our high tempo pressing game, these players use these tactics and do so effectively. Pundits often mention it on telly. (Gaston himself, as I recall, did it especially well in MP's first game at home to Everton - if he'd kept that up this thread wouldn't be here). That being the case surely our own players can't be naive enough to be surprised if it's our opponents doing the pressing and harassing. Doesn't make sense.

[VectisSaint]

I believe the correct stat is 5.6% so even then he flatters to deceive

Just for the sake of accuracy, the stats for this season are actually as follows:

4 sub appearances, ave 11.5 passes, 67.4% success rate

Admittedly this is the lowest of any of our outfield players, just behind Osvaldo and Lambert. Boruc has a worse pass success rate, perhaps we should ship him out based on that. Incidentally Guly has the top pass success rate, 100%.

Data courtesy of whoscored.com

[Wade Garrett]

From his agent's latest outburst, he'll be on his way as soon as Cortese is offered enough money.

 

Shame, really gifted player, but it hasn't worked out for him.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Gaston must be doing something incredibly awful to have Guly picked to sit on the bench in favour of him. Personally I would like to see him do well here, but it would seem he's not in the plans of MP and could be gone in January.

[Mr X]

Why enough is enough? He's not costing us points or games.

 

He is costing us money though and lots of it, 60k a week!

[VectisSaint]

He is costing us money though and lots of it, 60k a week!

Don't believe that figure for a minute, but I'm sure whatever he is "costing" for is budgeted for by NC. This concern for the cost of wages is a real throw back to the bad old days of Lowe and the plc.

[Leicestersaint]

Gaston is a highly skilled player with enormous potential. I just hope he gets a proper chance.

[egg]

Why enough is enough? He's not costing us points or games.

 

He cost us 12m plus wages and isn't contributing. Sell, recoup, and reinvest.

[Mr X]

Don't believe that figure for a minute, but I'm sure whatever he is "costing" for is budgeted for by NC. This concern for the cost of wages is a real throw back to the bad old days of Lowe and the plc.

 

You don't believe he's on that? It was disclosed when he signed gaston himself came for the money, he would be on even more than that at a top six club

[Sour Mash]

Don't believe that figure for a minute, but I'm sure whatever he is "costing" for is budgeted for by NC. This concern for the cost of wages is a real throw back to the bad old days of Lowe and the plc.

He'll be costing the club more than that. Regardless, it's basic Opportunity cost, for both his wages and his transfer fee and that's why it is relevant

[skintsaint]

part exchange deal for Hamsik.

[Pastor Patrón]

the lowest of any of our outfield players

 

Lol

[Black Sea Saint]

not sure why that is, I have adblock plus on my pc (blocks ads). Does the clip not come up after the ad?

 

 

Edit. How about this other interview? http://talksport.com/radio/extra-time/120904/vickery-ramirez-may-not-be-ready-premier-league-180224

 

This was from September 2012 you know

[John Boy Saint]

You mean his incredible ONE red card for accidentally whacking someone with his arm? I've seen accidental elbows like that all the time that never get given, and some not so accidental when jumping for the ball.

And it's amazing that you're comparing that to Osvaldo who has played less than 10 games and looked pretty feisty himself...

Hmmm Saints tinted spectacles here: he had the chance to accelerate further away from the WBA player, instead he pulled on the handbrake to make sure he was close enough carry out the deed.

[SaintDan]

At present we seem to be building a team around 'The Southampton Way' including youngsters from the academy who have been with the club 5+ years.

 

To me 'The Southampton Way' is all about playing attractive football whilst closing down the opposition and stopping them from playing, thus dictating games.

 

In order to improve as a team we have to attract big names and sign 'Marquee players'. Gaston was this marquee signing last summer and had a steady first season but not a £12m first season.

 

If you don't sign these Marquee signings then progression wont be made as other players will opt for Liverpool/Everton/Swansea who I currently see as the teams we are attempting to emulate/finish above in the league. I would say having 2 10m+ signings certainly played a factor in Osvaldo joining us.

 

Once again he has not had a proper pre season therefore he is behind the rest of the team in regards to ethos, fitness and game time.

 

He was signed based on his potential from what he showed for Bologna and in the Olympics therefore I would say stick with him, the guy is in his early 20s and from what we saw of him last season he shows flashes of brilliance. As we sign more and more top quality players in the Osvaldo, Morgan, Lovren, Clyne and even perhaps Shaw and Ward Prowse elk he will show how good a player he really is for us.

[Colinjb]

At present we seem to be building a team around 'The Southampton Way' including youngsters from the academy who have been with the club 5+ years.

 

To me 'The Southampton Way' is all about playing attractive football whilst closing down the opposition and stopping them from playing, thus dictating games.

 

In order to improve as a team we have to attract big names and sign 'Marquee players'. Gaston was this marquee signing last summer and had a steady first season but not a £12m first season.

 

If you don't sign these Marquee signings then progression wont be made as other players will opt for Liverpool/Everton/Swansea who I currently see as the teams we are attempting to emulate/finish above in the league. I would say having 2 10m+ signings certainly played a factor in Osvaldo joining us.

 

Once again he has not had a proper pre season therefore he is behind the rest of the team in regards to ethos, fitness and game time.

 

He was signed based on his potential from what he showed for Bologna and in the Olympics therefore I would say stick with him, the guy is in his early 20s and from what we saw of him last season he shows flashes of brilliance. As we sign more and more top quality players in the Osvaldo, Morgan, Lovren, Clyne and even perhaps Shaw and Ward Prowse elk he will show how good a player he really is for us.

 

Yes, to a lesser extent he was our 'Robinho,' a sign that we are serious about chasing talent rated on the world stage and not just content to play second fiddle to names seen as more established.

 

Neither player will have justified their price tag for the respective clubs (assuming he does move on, naturally I would love him to fulfill his obvious talent here) but the role they have played is a little more subtle then simply playing, it was arguably more important.

[buctootim]

This was from September 2012 you know

 

Thats the whole point. Commentators were saying in advance of the signing / Ramirez playing that he wasn't suited to the Premier League. Spurs and Liverpool didnt follow up - we ploughed ahead.