Standard of refs

[John Boy Saint]

I don't understand why PL referees have become so very bad - I think anyone who wants to be a PL referee should be stopped from being one on the grounds they have the wrong mentality. How can they be so poor?

When your boss is Mike "old Mother" Riley, a very arrogant whatsit it is no surprise.

[Whitey Grandad]

Yet another terrible decision, a dive by benteke

How long can this go one before TV reviews are used

 

Have you had a chance to see it again?

[Batman]

Have you had a chance to see it again?

 

It was a dive

[angelman]

Now I know it is an ex-ref, but....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3479239/Christian-Benteke-s-winning-penalty-rightly-awarded-referee-Andre-Marriner-assistant-thank.html

 

Listening to talkSport this morning they had another ex-ref on who said that he was hosting some US refs and all 15 of them said no penalty. Pundits say no penalty. Everyone seemingly said not a pen and then you have Poll. I imagine that the Mail is blocking all comments saying that Poll is, umm, wrong. As I say, ex-refs, but even so, it goes to show the inconsistencies.

[Whitey Grandad]

Now I know it is an ex-ref, but....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3479239/Christian-Benteke-s-winning-penalty-rightly-awarded-referee-Andre-Marriner-assistant-thank.html

 

Listening to talkSport this morning they had another ex-ref on who said that he was hosting some US refs and all 15 of them said no penalty. Pundits say no penalty. Everyone seemingly said not a pen and then you have Poll. I imagine that the Mail is blocking all comments saying that Poll is, umm, wrong. As I say, ex-refs, but even so, it goes to show the inconsistencies.

 

Benteke's left foot was caught by Delaney's right knee. Does anybody dispute that?

 

The pundits on MOTD2 said penalty but they know nothing (and I'm not being sarcastic).

[Shroppie]

Benteke's left foot was caught by Delaney's right knee. Does anybody dispute that?

 

The pundits on MOTD2 said penalty but they know nothing (and I'm not being sarcastic).

If that was a penalty, there should be about ten penalties a side each game.

 

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[Whitey Grandad]

On another tack, does anybody think that video review would have overturned that decision?

[Verbal Kint]

Benteke's left foot was caught by Delaney's right knee. Does anybody dispute that?

 

The pundits on MOTD2 said penalty but they know nothing (and I'm not being sarcastic).

 

Contact does not make it a foul necessarily. He made minimal contact and Benteke threw himself to the ground. Unfortunately the likes of Jamie Redknapp et all have now said "there's contact there" so many times that people have decided that any contact whatsoever justifies a foul. It's nonsense

[angelman]

Benteke's left foot was caught by Delaney's right knee. Does anybody dispute that?

 

The pundits on MOTD2 said penalty but they know nothing (and I'm not being sarcastic).

 

It was touched. I wouldn't personally say "caught" as that would be the same really as "clipped". I would go more for "brushed". Hardly enough for a normal 6'5, 13 stone player to go down.

 

The thing people seem to forget, and as was pointed out on talkSport when talking with the ex-ref, is that a bit of contact does not automatically mean a foul/penalty. And as others have mentioned, it is ridiculous when comparing this to the Greco-Roman wrestling that usually takes place at corners. You give fouls for Benteke, then give fouls for holding in the box. In fact too many refs will give a foul for this and that outside of the box, but not inside. Inconsistent. If they don't want to give 10 penalties a game, then they need to change things officially.

[Barry the Badger]

I have a lot of sympathy for them. If Benteke didn't throw himself to the floor there wouldn't be a decision to make. Players are to blame for A LOT of it IMO.

[sandwichsaint]

The other nonsense saying 'pundits' have introduced is 'he was entitled to go down, there'!

 

Not for me ... if a player is tripped or kicked or pushed with enough force to put him off balance and miss his next stride then it's clearly a foul, if the forward always attempted to make the next stride it would be obvious when he had been fouled (and when he hadn't). Too many players look to buy a contact and either ride it with no intention of playing the ball again, or just take a full on dive into it or over it.

 

Refs would also help themselves if they were more prepared to give freekicks where the fd is impeded but attempts to stay on his feet and move fd to continue playing the ball (Mane at Chelsea, clear contact causing him to lose position, he stayed on his feet and tried to regain the ball, no foul given).

 

If Benteke had ridden the contact and continued to try to play the ball ref would then have had to make a decision as to whether he had been sufficiently impeded to award a foul. Benteke throwing himself full length and then claiming 'contact' doesn't mean he was necessarily fouled.

 

Pundits eh?

[angelman]

Sandwich - totally agree with you about the "he was entitled to go down". Pundits who were ex players and obviously didn't mind cheating when they played, and still see nothing wrong with it. Us supporters who pay **** loads to go to the games, don't want to see it being decided by cheating.

 

Here's a link to it.....https://cdn.streamable.com/video/mp4-mobile/nvpc.mp4

[Batman]

football is an odd one.

cheating in the game is no where near punished enough

 

Talking about this on 606 last night. I agree when they state that if a player is found to have dived, they should face at least a 3 game ban......that would quickly sort it out

[doddisalegend]

Always amazes me how much CBs can get away with on big centre forwards Pelle gets man handled constantly with very little protection from refs ( Lambert was the same).

[sandwichsaint]

football is an odd one.

cheating in the game is no where near punished enough

 

Talking about this on 606 last night. I agree when they state that if a player is found to have dived, they should face at least a 3 game ban......that would quickly sort it out

 

I don't think you could ban Benteke for that, he's entitled to go down!

 

It's probably the most marginal decision we will see all season, as Whitey said above, would a video ref have over-ruled that?

 

I think, on balance, a video ref would have to say that was a penalty, they only judge 'facts' not interpretation, if the super super super slo-mo shows 'contact' then the video ref can't really say the ref's got it wrong.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Have you had a chance to see it again?

 

Yes several times

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Benteke's left foot was caught by Delaney's right knee. Does anybody dispute that?

 

The pundits on MOTD2 said penalty but they know nothing (and I'm not being sarcastic).

 

He left his leg back at same time as he made himself fall as he knew he had hit the ball out of play,

I they should call it "professional cheating"

[benjii]

I think it was a foul. Why is Delaney sliding towards him? He was nowhere near the ball and I don't think Benteke did anything particularly unnatural with his foot. It wasn't like the way Falcao manufactured contact against us at Stamford Bridge this season. I wouldn't expect the referee to have to make a judgment as to whether Benteke fell over naturally or fell over on purpose; it was not an obvious enough "dive" to be pulled up as a dive. It was only so controversial because it was the 95th minute or whatever.

 

However.... would the referee have given a foul if that had happened in the centre circle? No, because he didn't see it. Would the assistant have flagged for it then? Probably not. Is there worse on numerous occasions throughout the game - yes, probably.

 

The standard does seem very, very poor this season. You can understand decisions being incorrectly given. Some things are very hard to see and it comes down to the angle the referee happened to have at the time.

 

What really annoys me is rank inconsistency:

 

- Jon Moss in the Swansea away match, for example, showing us yellow cards for fouls when Swansea committed the three worst challenges in the match and didn't get one;

 

- referees spotting shirt pulling from corners seemingly arbitrarily; there seems to be one of those given every few weeks. Would they seriously have us believe that the collective of referees has not seen any similar fouls in all the other matches? That these are the only times the offence has been seen? If not, why do they give it sometimes but not all the time? Does it depend who the culprit is? What the situation in the match is?

 

- referees (Atkinson) overruling better placed assistants. etc.

 

By all means get some decisions wrong; it is inevitable. But, for goodness sake, give teams a fair chance! As someone else said, Mike Riley was awful and he's the boss now. Good one.

[Lets B Avenue]

If that "contact" was enough to knock that great lump over, then I would hate to be anywhere near him on a crowded station or shopping centre.

 

Cheating. Pure and simple.

[Lord Duckhunter]

On another tack, does anybody think that video review would have overturned that decision?

 

 

It wouldn't have done . My understanding is it will be overturned only if there's a clear and obvious error and only fact rather than opinion . There was a touch on Benteke it was then down to opinion as to whether it was enough to knock him over . Either way the video ref would have stuck with original decision .

[warsash saint]

The worst decision of the weekend was from Michael Oliver (supposedly out best ref!!). Correctly sends off Coquelin BUT then how does he not then send off Dyer for pulling back Girou? Oliver was stood not 5 yds away aswell!

[ALWAYS_SFC]

It wouldn't have done . My understanding is it will be overturned only if there's a clear and obvious error and only fact rather than opinion . There was a touch on Benteke it was then down to opinion as to whether it was enough to knock him over . Either way the video ref would have stuck with original decision .

 

Surely it should be judged on who instigated the "touch", the defender or the attacker and IMO it was the attacker..

[ALWAYS_SFC]

The worst decision of the weekend was from Michael Oliver (supposedly out best ref!!). Correctly sends off Coquelin BUT then how does he not then send off Dyer for pulling back Girou? Oliver was stood not 5 yds away aswell!

 

Agreed, he must be a spurs fan...or an idiot or both

[angelman]

It was a dive pure and simple and anyone who thinks otherwise needs their eyes testing. I've posted this link already....https://cdn.streamable.com/video/mp4-mobile/nvpc.mp4

 

Look at 0:47.

 

The left ankle gets brushed and then next thing you know, his right leg collapses as soon as it touches the ground. The left leg didn't make contact with any part of the body or ground, and there was no reason to fall over save for cheating. There was no reason at all for either leg to "collapse". He didn't even bother to plant his right foot properly before deciding to go down.

 

The paying public cannot accept this sort of **** that decides games.

Edited 7 March, 2016 by angelman

[Shroppie]

It was a dive pure and simple and anyone who thinks otherwise needs their eyes testing. I've posted this link already....https://cdn.streamable.com/video/mp4-mobile/nvpc.mp4

 

Look at 0:47.

 

The left ankle gets brushed and then next thing you know, his right leg collapses as soon as it touches the ground. The left leg didn't make contact with any part of the body or ground, and there was no reason to fall over save for cheating.

Agreed. A faint, accidental and inconsequential touch of the knee against the foot when he was already falling down.

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

Surely it should be judged on who instigated the "touch", the defender or the attacker and IMO it was the attacker..

 

I agree it wasn't a pen , but was point was that the decision would not have been overturned by the video ref . It wasn't a clear & obvious factual error .

[doddisalegend]

On another note does,anyone think players are abusing the head injury rule. Seems a few players have cottoned on to it as a good way of stopping a team breaking on them. Just go down and grab your head and the ref has stop the game then you can get up as soon as your team mates have re-set themselves...

[The9]

Yet another terrible decision, a dive by benteke

How long can this go one before TV reviews are used

 

The tv review would have shown that Delaney's right knee trapped Benteke's left foot. Of course Benteke ALSO dived because the referee wouldn't have seen it (and indeed let the linesman make the call), but tv replays would have given a penalty.

[The9]

On another note does,anyone think players are abusing the head injury rule. Seems a few players have cottoned on to it as a good way of stopping a team breaking on them. Just go down and grab your head and the ref has stop the game then you can get up as soon as your team mates have re-set themselves...

 

Only for about 5 years already. Just as the ones who do have head injuries or blood get up immediately and try to hide it if their team is attacking.

[The9]

It was a dive pure and simple and anyone who thinks otherwise needs their eyes testing. I've posted this link already....https://cdn.streamable.com/video/mp4-mobile/nvpc.mp4

 

Look at 0:47.

 

The left ankle gets brushed and then next thing you know, his right leg collapses as soon as it touches the ground. The left leg didn't make contact with any part of the body or ground, and there was no reason to fall over save for cheating. There was no reason at all for either leg to "collapse". He didn't even bother to plant his right foot properly before deciding to go down.

 

The paying public cannot accept this sort of **** that decides games.

 

The left ankle was trapped, it was Benteke's left leg not taking the next step which caused him to fall over - it was both a penalty AND a yellow card for simulation.

[The9]

Agreed. A faint, accidental and inconsequential touch of the knee against the foot when he was already falling down.

 

The contact was what caused him to fall down. Albeit because Benteke was planning on falling down anyway and that just gave him the opportunity, but the only error made was from Delaney by making the decision to slide anywhere near Benteke. And there was enough contact that he could have fallen over - he probably would have stumbled when trying to put his left foot down and fallen over, possibly backwards, a couple of steps later, in a way that looked so ridiculous a referee wouldn't have given it.

[angelman]

No it wasn't a penalty - but granted, of course that is just opinion. If the heel had been tapped hard enough which then made his left leg bang into his right and make him fall, then yes. But his thighs didn't touch each other, and his right leg just crumpled closely followed by the left one. Clever though of him to keep his arms down rather than throwing them up in the air. He didn't even try to plant his left leg - he folded it up and landed on his knees.

[The9]

No it wasn't a penalty - but granted, of course that is just opinion. If the heel had been tapped hard enough which then made his left leg bang into his right and make him fall, then yes. But his thighs didn't touch each other, and his right leg just crumpled closely followed by the left one. Clever though of him to keep his arms down rather than throwing them up in the air. He didn't even try to plant his left leg - he folded it up and landed on his knees.

 

I don't understand you saying it wasn't a penalty - even if Delaney had completely missed him the mere need to avoid a collision is sufficient grounds to give a penalty now. Anything careless, reckless or dangerous is a foul (with punishment of varying severity), contact isn't necessary.

 

One of the biggest problems I have with the whole diving argument is that much of the time players do it because refs won't give fouls without the player falling flat on his face or rolling around or grabbing himself in the face. As soon as Delaney decided to slide he put himself in a position to concede the foul.

[The9]

I have a lot of sympathy for them. If Benteke didn't throw himself to the floor there wouldn't be a decision to make. Players are to blame for A LOT of it IMO.

 

And the ref still would have been wrong not to give a penalty.

[angelman]

I don't understand you saying it wasn't a penalty - even if Delaney had completely missed him the mere need to avoid a collision is sufficient grounds to give a penalty now. Anything careless, reckless or dangerous is a foul (with punishment of varying severity), contact isn't necessary.

 

One of the biggest problems I have with the whole diving argument is that much of the time players do it because refs won't give fouls without the player falling flat on his face or rolling around or grabbing himself in the face. As soon as Delaney decided to slide he put himself in a position to concede the foul.

 

Question, bearing in mind that football is a contact sport, if Delaney's slight brush of his knee against the heel of Benteke, didn't bring him down, would you still consider it a foul?

[Leicestersaint]

Mark Lawrenson - what a total joke.

[Barry the Badger]

And the ref still would have been wrong not to give a penalty.

 

Will have to agree to disagree, not a pen for me.

[Sour Mash]

I bet even after reading such threads there are people who think video refs should be brought in for such occasions!

[angelman]

I bet even after reading such threads there are people who think video refs should be brought in for such occasions!

 

Video refs should work along the same lines as cricket. There they have to "proof", not reasonable doubt, to overturn a refs decision

[Whitey Grandad]

The contact was what caused him to fall down. Albeit because Benteke was planning on falling down anyway and that just gave him the opportunity, but the only error made was from Delaney by making the decision to slide anywhere near Benteke. And there was enough contact that he could have fallen over - he probably would have stumbled when trying to put his left foot down and fallen over, possibly backwards, a couple of steps later, in a way that looked so ridiculous a referee wouldn't have given it.

 

I agree with this line of reasoning. There's no doubt that Benteke could have stayed on his feet but why should he? At the very least his free movement was impeded. He had the good sense not to go for the full theatrics. Let's not forget that this was the assistant's decision and not the ref's who had no reason to overrule him.

The worst decision was Delaney's, all he had to do was cover the run.

[Whitey Grandad]

Mark Lawrenson - what a total joke.

 

I think we can all agree on this one

[Cosmic]

First step is to try to reattach some shame to cheating, rather than calling it 'clever'. Then we need to start banning players for diving. We'd have a few months of teams not being able to field a side and I'd have to sympathy for them. Refereeing is actually quite easy if the players try to stay on their feet. Going down after marginal contact makes it harder for refs. Stay on your feet and it's easy to see the extent of the 'contact'. Of course, refs will also have to start giving fouls when players do this. They only have themselves to blame for that one.

[corky morris]

Agreed, he must be a spurs fan...or an idiot or both

 

Spurs have benefitted quite a few times this season from what ive seen. And Lemala's hand ball goal at SMS last season was a disgrace!!

[John Smith]

Premier league game, A business opportunity, risk versus reward, no brainier.

 

Sunday league, Ref doesn't even consider it, linesman is from defending team, no money involved, no penalty.

 

Answer is money.

 

 

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[Give it to Ron]

Premier league game, A business opportunity, risk versus reward, no brainier.

 

Sunday league, Ref doesn't even consider it, linesman is from defending team, no money involved, no penalty.

 

Answer is money.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Totally agree and its the local refs that are getting the brunt of it - I used to take my lad and stood away some of what I used to hear at Tyro was incredible - he got to a good level academy games - did Brooklyn Beckham for Arsenal and TBH only had 2 bad games 1 where the lino was ****ed!

What really gets me now is Howard Webb in the studio watching multiple times in slow motion from every angle then criticising his old mates who get 1 second.

The officials in the Prem need help from 4th official - they are miked up and takes seconds to give his view at one presentation although we were told certain officials do not listen or take instructions from assistants and want to make decisions themselves.

 

Every official's decision is analysed to the nth degree by assessors after the game they don't get away lightly from the assessors.

[Whitey Grandad]

Totally agree and its the local refs that are getting the brunt of it - I used to take my lad and stood away some of what I used to hear at Tyro was incredible - he got to a good level academy games - did Brooklyn Beckham for Arsenal and TBH only had 2 bad games 1 where the lino was ****ed!

What really gets me now is Howard Webb in the studio watching multiple times in slow motion from every angle then criticising his old mates who get 1 second.

The officials in the Prem need help from 4th official - they are miked up and takes seconds to give his view at one presentation although we were told certain officials do not listen or take instructions from assistants and want to make decisions themselves.

 

Every official's decision is analysed to the nth degree by assessors after the game they don't get away lightly from the assessors.

 

The fourth official is only there to control the benches, take charge of substitutes and to assist with disciplinary matters.

 

You're right about the assessors. Even in my day the ref got a set of videos of the game, one of which showed the normal TV game and another concentrating on the referee with comments on every decision he gave and whether it was correct and also pointing out situations where he didn't give a foul but should have.

[Batman]

appalling from the officials at the Brit

[ALWAYS_SFC]

appalling from the officials at the Brit

 

Agreed, something has to change

[Batman]

Agreed, something has to change

 

shouldnt need video replays for that

[Batman]

the ref at the everton/chelsea game has sent costa off. about time

looks like the nutter may have bitten gareth barry!!!