Standard of refs

[Batman]

It certainly looked that way on television, but it's not the first time I've seen this happen.

 

it would be appalling if it was because of the fans

his first half performance was attrocious

[david in sweden]

It certainly looked that way on television, but it's not the first time I've seen this happen.

 

I think by that time in the game, the ref. had caught the drift of things. I noted some Chelsea fans (the ugliest in the Prem. in a recent survey ).were going ballistic because they thought the ball was outside the quadrant, but the ref. made it clear that he was satisfied with the placement and the ball position was acceptable.

[david in sweden]

They're only controversial because the media try to make them out to be worse than they are.

There are very rarely the obvious howlers but these are few and far between.

 

as a matter of interest Whitey..what was your opinion of the ref 's performance? ...(had you been an FA adjudicator at Stamford Bridge....)

 

I thought the Saints' " bookings" were a bit trivial considering what one or two of the home players got away with.

[Wes Tender]

That was the ultimate show that he was influenced by Chelsea and massively favoured them all day. They were wrong, the ball was positioned fine, but he had to appease them and made a massive thing of running over when he could have asked the linesman. Spineless.

And yet apparently the match replays show that Willian had moved the ball about five yards forward for the free kick that he scored. It amuses the hell out of me that fans would get so precious over the ball being an inch or two away from where it should be for a corner, but I can see that if the ball would otherwise have hit the post, the additional inches would mean that it would go in.

[cambsaint]

Regarding the corner incident, I think he wanted to show the viewers just how stupid and poor sighted the Chelsea fans were. It made me laugh at the stupid tw*ts going berserk over nothing.

I think the standard of refereeing is pretty good overall. My wife always laughs at me when I call the ref incompetent, blind, bent or a cheat, and says ypu always say that.

Seriously though the game is now so fast that it is an incredibly difficult job especially with the amount of cheating that goes on.it's very easy to come to a different conclusion with several camera angles, slo-mo and super slo-mo. Even then it frequently comes down to a matter of opinion and I often think the so called pundits are wrong.

I think that we could experiment on the lines of cricket and allow managers say two appeals per half, after the game has stopped and allow the ref to request replays on the big screen for penalties, cards, and goals. Whether these should be in slow-motion or in real time could be a matter of opinion.

It wouldn't matter if the appeal was upheld or not each manager would only have two appeals per half to discourage minor appeals.

The only problem being that refs may come to depend on the appeals rather as they have in cricket.

Certainly wouldn't want to see the endless slo-mos you often see in Rugby.

What I would like to see is only the captain allowed to politely query a decision, and any other player being booked if they approached the referee, and to make asking for a card an automatic red-card offence.

I remember many years ago I used to ref in inter-faculty matches. often at this level if I let things go, and was queried I just used to ask the captains if they wanted me to blow for every minor offence rather than play advantage, and warn them that if I did the match would probably last three hours.

They usually got the point! It was very difficult even at that level, if I were young again I would consider having a go at refereeing because I love the game but was never very good at it. Only problem was that when I was young I tried never to miss a home game and loved watching top class games.

[Batman]

howler at SMS today

[farawaysaint]

I don't really criticise refs but this is truly awful.

[Saint86]

what happened today guys? Was it a pen? Couldn't watch or listen?

[Shroppie]

Thought we had one stonewall and one possible.

 

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[Saint86]

Grrr!!!

[Saint Without a Halo]

We didn't deserve a point despite having a crap ref who turned down one certain and two possible pens. Looking at the one given against Bournemouth at Swansea all three of ours were much better shouts.

[Saint_clark]

That was abysmal. Cant believe stoke escaped without a booking for repeated fouling but JWP gets a yellow for a nothing tackle shortly after coming on! Don't even get me started on booking Pelle for a shot immediately after an admittedly stupid handball. The Stoke players definitely influenced that.

[Whitey Grandad]

That was abysmal. Cant believe stoke escaped without a booking for repeated fouling but JWP gets a yellow for a nothing tackle shortly after coming on! Don't even get me started on booking Pelle for a shot immediately after an admittedly stupid handball. The Stoke players definitely influenced that.

 

Pellè was just stupid, you can't blame the ref for that.

[corky morris]

Pellè was just stupid, you can't blame the ref for that.

 

I hear you, but you can understand his frustration at how referees are constantly allowing defenders to foul him without punishment.

[LGTL]

Was an absolute stonewall penalty on Pelle.

[Graffito]

Pellè was just stupid, you can't blame the ref for that.

 

Is a ref allowed to use discretion in those situations? After all, Pelle was wasting Saints' time.

[John Boy Saint]

That was abysmal. Cant believe stoke escaped without a booking for repeated fouling but JWP gets a yellow for a nothing tackle shortly after coming on! Don't even get me started on booking Pelle for a shot immediately after an admittedly stupid handball. The Stoke players definitely influenced that.

If you look at the stats for this season we are there or there abouts the dirtiest team in the league based on Yellows and Reds

[Whitey Grandad]

Is a ref allowed to use discretion in those situations? After all, Pelle was wasting Saints' time.

 

I'm pretty sure that deliberate handball is a mandatory yellow. They make some offences mandatory in an attempt to stamp them out. Unfortunately some footballers are too stupid or selfish.

 

As for the penalty claims, I can't say that any were very strong. It seemed to me that our players were looking for them instead of attempting to score.

[Batman]

I'm pretty sure that deliberate handball is a mandatory yellow. They make some offences mandatory in an attempt to stamp them out. Unfortunately some footballers are too stupid or selfish.

 

As for the penalty claims, I can't say that any were very strong. It seemed to me that our players were looking for them instead of attempting to score.

 

the one in the 2nd half was very strong. should have been a dead cert, stonewall, deffo type of penalty

I would suggest Pelle was not looking for that

[corky morris]

I'm pretty sure that deliberate handball is a mandatory yellow. They make some offences mandatory in an attempt to stamp them out. Unfortunately some footballers are too stupid or selfish.

 

As for the penalty claims, I can't say that any were very strong. It seemed to me that our players were looking for them instead of attempting to score.

 

The Pelle one was a penalty, no doubt. IMHO, refs have decided not to give Pelle free kicks. It's pre determined.

[Whitey Grandad]

 

the one in the 2nd half was very strong. should have been a dead cert, stonewall, deffo type of penalty

I would suggest Pelle was not looking for that

 

I look forward to seeing it again on MOTD. At the time I wasn't surprised that we didn't get it.

[corky morris]

I look forward to seeing it again on MOTD. At the time I wasn't surprised that we didn't get it.

What was your first impression of the 2 Madley didn't give at Chelsea? Or Djuricic against Liverpool last season?

[Whitey Grandad]

What was your first impression of the 2 Madley didn't give at Chelsea? Or Djuricic against Liverpool last season?

 

I don't think the Chelsea ones were very convincing, but I was watching that on TV.

 

Djuricic? I'd forgotten about him. The first chance he had when he tangled with Can I felt he was to busy trying to win a penalty when he should have carried on and tried to score. This may have influenced the ref's thinking when the second incident occurred.

 

Let's not forget that most of us are fifty yards away.

[Graffito]

I'm pretty sure that deliberate handball is a mandatory yellow. They make some offences mandatory in an attempt to stamp them out. Unfortunately some footballers are too stupid or selfish.

 

As for the penalty claims, I can't say that any were very strong. It seemed to me that our players were looking for them instead of attempting to score.

 

Maybe I'm misremembering but I thought he was booked for booting the ball goalwards after the ref pulled him up. If so, a bit of discretion, or dare I say common sense, would have been in order with it being that late in the game. With Saints losing and time running out Pelle was wasting our time and nobody elses. On the other hand, Mason allowed Stoke to time waste throughout the second half.

[corky morris]

According to Soccerbase when Lee Mason has refereed us in a league game we have never won. The only match we have won was the 3-2 win at Stoke in the cup last season. That's since 2002/2003 season when he came into the league.

14 seasons & zero league wins!!

[John Boy Saint]

Just watching match choice, JWP's booking for the tap on Adam was like Mason just remembered he had cards in his pocket.

[SFKA South Woodford]

The foul on Pelle in the second half definitely looked like a penalty, but I wasn't surprised that we didn't get it as according to the referees we've had at St Mary's this season Pelle hasn't been fouled once. Also wasn't a surprise as the ref and lino didn't spot Arnautovics handball from Bertrands throw in in the first half or Bojan punching Cedric in the head when they were only a few yards away from each incident.

It can only be a matter of time before Pelle loses patience and lumps someone when he's been fouled for the umpteenth time and got nothing for it, the guy has the patience of a saint!

 

Oh yeah and why was Charlie 'the big Jessie' Adams foul on Mane to deliberately stop our attack building not worthy of a yellow?

[benjii]

Mason's use of, or failure to use, yellow cards was just downright suspicious. No reall explanation at all other than favouring Stoke.

 

And we had a clear penalty refused.

[rallyboy]

I haven't been brave enough to watch the TV version yet but his inconsistency was bizarre.

Couldn't clearly see the Pelle claim but the player reaction said much, and I did see a swinging arm on Cedric, and players scuffling - none of which apparently warranted yellows.

The professional foul by Adams looked textbook yellow at the time - I can only assume that JWP went in high with studs, it looked ordinary in the ground.

 

It was an unusual refereeing performance.

[LGTL]

If Pelle ends up smacking some defender in the face I couldn't blame him. He gets absolutely nothing from referees every single week.

[david in sweden]

Of course refereeing is a difficult task, and until they can train aliens with eyes in the back of their heads to do a better job, the ref.will always miss things.

 

What occurs to me is that, even if we accept that all refs. are theoretically "neutral", there are some Prem. level refs. who clearly "don't buy" the type of awkward fall, or screaming appeals that some players are known to make. Also that the type of " ankle-tap " or " nudge" that is ignored by some... is instantly cautioned by others.

In this respect, there is a deal of inequality in the decision-making process. The manner in which some players " react " to a foul is also noticeable.

 

Unfortunately, Sadio Mane gets far less fouls awarded in his favour, because of his seemingly " theatrical way " of falling to the ground, whilst others can fall like a ton of bricks with the minimum of physical contact. Pelle's physical build can be a liability in this aspect as he is constantly "double-marked " and should get far more fouls awarded than he ever wins. His own frustration often ends up with him being " yellow-carded" instead.

 

There are a number of players who seem to have a " rapport " with refs. that allows them to " almost literally " get away with murder.

The number of times I've seen John Terry give a referee .. that innocent boyish grin and a pat of the back ..and then walk away un-penalised is many, despite the fact that he may have put the opponent out of the game (and into the treatment room) for sometime to come.

 

Decisions made in a split-second are made for any number of reasons, and the presence of a dozen different camera angles giving replays that prove (or disprove) a controversial decision doesn't make the job easier. Replays of yesterday's fiasco might show that we had a " good penalty shout " on at least one - if not two occasions.

 

However, (and I say this as a fan of over 50 years) Stoke deserved the win yesterday, and even one point would have been an injustice to them and a gift to us.

[Whitey Grandad]

Maybe I'm misremembering but I thought he was booked for booting the ball goalwards after the ref pulled him up. If so, a bit of discretion, or dare I say common sense, would have been in order with it being that late in the game. With Saints losing and time running out Pelle was wasting our time and nobody elses. On the other hand, Mason allowed Stoke to time waste throughout the second half.

 

Yes, of course you're right, I had just woken up yesterday when I'd posted. Booting the ball away would certainly demand a booking too, logic doesn't come into it.

 

Mason kept pointing to his watch whenever Butland dragged his heels a bit but they were only doing what any other team would have done. I was expecting five minutes, to be honest, what with all the substitutes and injuries.

[Whitey Grandad]

Of course refereeing is a difficult task, and until they can train aliens with eyes in the back of their heads to do a better job, the ref.will always miss things.

 

What occurs to me is that, even if we accept that all refs. are theoretically "neutral", there are some Prem. level refs. who clearly "don't buy" the type of awkward fall, or screaming appeals that some players are known to make. Also that the type of " ankle-tap " or " nudge" that is ignored by some... is instantly cautioned by others.

In this respect, there is a deal of inequality in the decision-making process. The manner in which some players " react " to a foul is also noticeable.

 

Unfortunately, Sadio Mane gets far less fouls awarded in his favour, because of his seemingly " theatrical way " of falling to the ground, whilst others can fall like a ton of bricks with the minimum of physical contact. Pelle's physical build can be a liability in this aspect as he is constantly "double-marked " and should get far more fouls awarded than he ever wins. His own frustration often ends up with him being " yellow-carded" instead.

 

There are a number of players who seem to have a " rapport " with refs. that allows them to " almost literally " get away with murder.

The number of times I've seen John Terry give a referee .. that innocent boyish grin and a pat of the back ..and then walk away un-penalised is many, despite the fact that he may have put the opponent out of the game (and into the treatment room) for sometime to come.

 

Decisions made in a split-second are made for any number of reasons, and the presence of a dozen different camera angles giving replays that prove (or disprove) a controversial decision doesn't make the job easier. Replays of yesterday's fiasco might show that we had a " good penalty shout " on at least one - if not two occasions.

 

However, (and I say this as a fan of over 50 years) Stoke deserved the win yesterday, and even one point would have been an injustice to them and a gift to us.

 

Both Pellè and Mané come from leagues where referees treat apparent fouls differently.

[Wes Tender]

Decisions made in a split-second are made for any number of reasons, and the presence of a dozen different camera angles giving replays that prove (or disprove) a controversial decision doesn't make the job easier. Replays of yesterday's fiasco might show that we had a " good penalty shout " on at least one - if not two occasions.

 

However, (and I say this as a fan of over 50 years) Stoke deserved the win yesterday, and even one point would have been an injustice to them and a gift to us.

 

Had the referee awarded at least one of the two penalties we should have been awarded, then the score would have been one each. Who knows how we or they would have reacted to the scores being levelled. Stoke might have outplayed us for much of the match and created more chances, but with such wayward and wasteful finishing they did not deserve the win. Had they had decisions go against them from their pet ref, or produced shots which brought world-class saves from Stekenlenburg, I might agree.

[Golden Balls]

If Pelle ends up smacking some defender in the face I couldn't blame him. He gets absolutely nothing from referees every single week.

 

It will happen. Stoke knew that climbing all over him would go unpunished so did it all game. It was laughable at times.

Lambert used to get similar treatment. Probably not as bad actually. He lost it at Brighton away. Pelle will too.

[doddisalegend]

It will happen. Stoke knew that climbing all over him would go unpunished so did it all game. It was laughable at times.

Lambert used to get similar treatment. Probably not as bad actually. He lost it at Brighton away. Pelle will too.

 

 

Well if Pelle is going to lose it and get sent off plus a three match ban can it be for lamping Charlie Adam? I don't think there is a player in the PL I would like to see get sparked out more than that ****.

[hasper57saint]

I posted before the match that Lee Mason was 'suspect' and so it proved to be.Thankfully Pelle kept his cool but like Doddy had he lumped Adam I would cheer to the rafters.

[david in sweden]

Both Pellè and Mané come from leagues where referees treat apparent fouls differently.

 

I think it does vary from country to country within Europe, but as both players have now clocked up a suspension - before December, they must learn to adjust - otherwise they are going to be in for regular suspensions for the remainder of their careers. Second season for both of them. Hope they learn it PDQ.

[david in sweden]

Had the referee awarded at least one of the two penalties we should have been awarded, then the score would have been one each.

Who knows how we or they would have reacted to the scores being levelled.

Stoke might have outplayed us for much of the match and created more chances, but with such wayward and wasteful finishing they did not deserve the win.

 

Had they had decisions go against them from their pet ref, or produced shots which brought world-class saves from Stekenlenburg, I might agree.

 

 

......isn't that what Jose Mourinho said after Chelsea were denied a penalty in our game at Stamford Bridge?.

 

According to the stats. I saw both sides had 16 shots....that's poor finishing by both sides, but after 90+ mins... you still only need one goal more than the opposition.

IMHO.... I though the goal that they did score was very well taken. Was one of the worst Saints' performances I've seen ..in quite a while. (Sadly)

Edited 23 November, 2015 by david in sweden

[Shroppie]

I see In Sky's ref watch Gallagher thinks there was no doubt about the Pelle incident - should have been a penalty and he didn't understand why not.

 

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[Saint Charlie]

We have been given Madley for the Liverpool game.

 

Hope he feels he owes us one after the poor decisions at Chelsea.

[Lets B Avenue]

I see In Sky's ref watch Gallagher thinks there was no doubt about the Pelle incident - should have been a penalty and he didn't understand why not.

 

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Whereas talkshyte had Graham Poll on and didn't mention us at all as "there were no contentious issues in any of the big games. all the refs had a good weekend."

[stevegrant]

Whereas talkshyte had Graham Poll on and didn't mention us at all as "there were no contentious issues in any of the big games. all the refs had a good weekend."

To be fair, I think the Premier League hype machine would have been stretching the realms of reality by calling our game against Stoke one of "the big games"

[Shroppie]

To be fair, I think the Premier League hype machine would have been stretching the realms of reality by calling our game against Stoke one of "the big games" [emoji38]

And clearly bad decisions don't matter if they don't affect the "big" teams.

 

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[derry]

I see In Sky's ref watch Gallagher thinks there was no doubt about the Pelle incident - should have been a penalty and he didn't understand why not.

 

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As the foul happened, I was watching Mason, he put his whistle to his mouth then took it away. That said it all for me.

[The9]

I think it does vary from country to country within Europe, but as both players have now clocked up a suspension - before December, they must learn to adjust - otherwise they are going to be in for regular suspensions for the remainder of their careers. Second season for both of them. Hope they learn it PDQ.

 

Mane has already learned, he got sent off multiple times for Salzburg and it's only happened once for us in a game when it mattered very little it was so late on.

[The9]

It will happen. Stoke knew that climbing all over him would go unpunished so did it all game. It was laughable at times.

Lambert used to get similar treatment. Probably not as bad actually. He lost it at Brighton away. Pelle will too.

 

Lambert "losing it" at Brighton was actually El Abd(?) kicking him and dragging him to the ground, then chucking himself on the floor as Lambert pushed off him to get up.

[The9]

Aside from the penalty decision I don't think Mason had any impact on the result.

 

Pelle's booking was completely deserved if it was for kicking the ball away, which it appeared to be.

[Whitey Grandad]

As the foul happened, I was watching Mason, he put his whistle to his mouth then took it away. That said it all for me.

 

That means nothing.

[SFKA South Woodford]

Aside from the penalty decision I don't think Mason had any impact on the result.

 

Pelle's booking was completely deserved if it was for kicking the ball away, which it appeared to be.

 

Really? If he had done a decent job, we wouldn't have been the only team to get a booking and stoke could have possibly been down to ten men. Arnautovic should have been booked for handling Bertrands throwin in the first half and should also have got one for trying to start a fracas with three different players whilst Cedric was being treated.

 

Then there was Bojan punching Cedric as he made a fist and leading with it in the challenge that led to Cedrics head wound. Walters challenge which left Virgil pole axed. Charlie Adams cynical professional foul on Mane to stop our counter attack and Adam leading with the elbow every time he jumped for the ball and finally the challenge on Pelle where he ran up to Mason and told him that he had just been hit in the back of the head only for Mason to tell him to do one.

 

So to say he had little effect on the outcome could be true, but it is more telling that if he had done his job properly he would and should have been instrumental in the outcome.