Are we turning into West Ham?

[scdean]

Just read this from http://www.football365.com/faves/8950254/F365-s-Top-Ten-Best-Decisions-So-Far

 

we pass it around a lot at the back, but apparently when it comes to going forward now, we just lump it up there.

I don't necessarily agree with this report, but I do wonder if we need to get the ball to SRL and Ossie's feet more.

 

thoughts?

 

 

 

report below.....

 

4. Southampton - pragmatism and practicality

 

Whilst Southampton gained significant plaudits for their style of play last season (both under Mauricio Pochettino and Nigel Adkins), the fact remained that the Saints survived relegation by a mere five points, struggling largely due to a defence that conceded as many goals as bottom-placed QPR. Whilst defensive personnel (namely Mayo Yoshida and Jos Hooiveld) looked of inadequate ability, the suspicion was that such individuals had been left exposed by a strategy that was pleasing on the eye, but often less than effective.

 

This season, prettiness has been replaced by pragmatism, and no other Premier League team has played as many long balls per game as Southampton. Part of this is clearly an attempt to utilise the aerial threat of Rickie Lambert and Pablo Osvaldo, but it is also an acceptance that passing things from the back is not always a viable tactic.

 

Southampton have not been particularly pleasant to watch at times, but are sitting in fifth place having already gained more than a quarter of last season's points total. A defence that has conceded two goals in six games is now the basis for success, rather than its undermining.

[Graffito]

It doesn't't actually say we just lump it forward but that we play more long balls per match than any other team. It doesn't reference any stats to back what it is saying. Without the evidence the author is just making an assertion. I wonder how the long ball stats, if they bear out what is being said, fit with possession stats. What do the stats say about number of passes and pass completion. Having seen most of our games live I don't accept that our football isn't pleasing on the eye nor that we aren't passing the ball around.

[Turkish]

Yes I agree with the above, we need evidence otherwise this is a disgraceful piece attempting to destabilise us. How dare they say we aren't a brilliant free flowing side playing glorious soccerball.

[Joensuu]

We switch to a more hit and hoof style against hit and hoof teams. We press teams who try to play. So far this season we've only been able to press against Liverpool. That's why we've recorded more long halls than some others. I doubt we'll play too many long halls in the next few games.

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

Can a long ball be a long pass along the ground? Seen Morgan do (& Big Vic try!) that those a number of times to release Osvaldo or Lallana.

[beatlesaint]

I think maybe a fairer assessment will follow us playing a few more decent teams rather than those who have come to spoil (West Ham) so we have resorted to more direct tactics.

Judge it after we have played everyone once.

And what is their definition of a long ball I wonder ? Does a pass from one side of the pitch to the other without gaining any ground count ? I guess it does.

[Wiggles31]

I think maybe a fairer assessment will follow us playing a few more decent teams rather than those who have come to spoil (West Ham) so we have resorted to more direct tactics.

Judge it after we have played everyone once.

And what is their definition of a long ball I wonder ? Does a pass from one side of the pitch to the other without gaining any ground count ? I guess it does.

 

Agreed, against Liverpool we played nice passing football and pressed them high.

[Wiggles31]

We have defintely played a few more long balls. But we do pass it around the back (too much sometimes!) so I don't agree totally with that article.

 

And no we are not the new West Ham. Only have to look at how they played against us recently to see we are nothing like them.

[Graffito]

Yes I agree with the above, we need evidence otherwise this is a disgraceful piece attempting to destabilise us. How dare they say we aren't a brilliant free flowing side playing glorious soccerball.

 

Good point well made. The bigger picture. I see that now.

[Cascadia Saint]

Just read this from http://www.football365.com/faves/8950254/F365-s-Top-Ten-Best-Decisions-So-Far

 

we pass it around a lot at the back, but apparently when it comes to going forward now, we just lump it up there.

I don't necessarily agree with this report, but I do wonder if we need to get the ball to SRL and Ossie's feet more.

 

thoughts?

 

 

 

report below.....

 

4. Southampton - pragmatism and practicality

 

Whilst Southampton gained significant plaudits for their style of play last season (both under Mauricio Pochettino and Nigel Adkins), the fact remained that the Saints survived relegation by a mere five points, struggling largely due to a defence that conceded as many goals as bottom-placed QPR. Whilst defensive personnel (namely Mayo Yoshida and Jos Hooiveld) looked of inadequate ability, the suspicion was that such individuals had been left exposed by a strategy that was pleasing on the eye, but often less than effective.

 

This season, prettiness has been replaced by pragmatism, and no other Premier League team has played as many long balls per game as Southampton. Part of this is clearly an attempt to utilise the aerial threat of Rickie Lambert and Pablo Osvaldo, but it is also an acceptance that passing things from the back is not always a viable tactic.

 

Southampton have not been particularly pleasant to watch at times, but are sitting in fifth place having already gained more than a quarter of last season's points total. A defence that has conceded two goals in six games is now the basis for success, rather than its undermining.

 

We're not west ham.

 

We are doing what we did last season, mixing long balls with movement forward through the middle and down the wings. We can do both, but people don't want to see it.

[Lets B Avenue]

Radio 5 commentators last night were saying that Barcelona were playing more long passes this season under their new coach. Not hoof, as they still don't have a centre forward, but switches of play and less short passing.

 

Dosent seem to hurt them as they have won all 7 league and 2 CL games. Just appears they are copying us after all!

 

Anyhow. What constitutes a long ball?

[Turkish]

Radio 5 commentators last night were saying that Barcelona were playing more long passes this season under their new coach. Not hoof, as they still don't have a centre forward, but switches of play and less short passing.

 

Dosent seem to hurt them as they have won all 7 league and 2 CL games. Just appears they are copying us after all!

 

Anyhow. What constitutes a long ball?

 

Beat me to it. What is a long ball and what is the difference between playing a long ball and a "hoofball" as some on here like to describe it. Surely the best teams would be able to mix it up, play it short at times and play it long at other times. I've certainly seem Man United play long balls regularly over the 20 years or so they dominated English football, yet some people seem to think there is something wrong with it.

 

Does anyone believe that premier league footballers simply hump it high, long, hopeful balls looking for the flicks from the big man onto the little nippy man to pick up? Or that they play 1980's "get it into the mixer" football? Despite all the bile aimed at West Ham for their supposed "hoofball" the way they play is nothing like 1980s Wimbledon. Although we do have a fair percentage of "GET RID OF IT" "GET IT FORRWARRRRRRRRRRRRRRD!!!!!" "STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH IT!" merchants inside SMS who would like to see us play that way it would seem

[Olallana]

There is a big difference between a long direct ball and a hoof ball. When you play hoof ball it´s more up to the striker (usually) to move to the ball rather a direct ball that is more to the striker without him needing to move too much towards the ball.

 

And looking at stats you´ll see that for example a pass from rightsided CB to the left back will be marked as a long pass.

 

Although we´re playing a bit more direct at times I wouldn´t say we´re turning into a West Ham style, it´s more of having a different game plan against some teams and IMO it´s also because we haven´t utilized the space between opponents defenders and midfield as good as we were doing at times last year. If we can find that space more with pass on the feets of forwards or ACM it will look different and probably more fluid than it has so far.

[jjsaint]

We are nothing like West Ham IMO. The recent match against West Ham highlighted the differences: we play long ball, they play hoof and hope; we're physical but they bully; we're defensive-minded but they park the bus. I wouldn't pay to watch that sh*te even occasionally and certainly not every week.

 

In short, if West Ham had a squad and manager with any sense of style and tactics, they would be a less effective version of us.

[Turkish]

We are nothing like West Ham IMO. The recent match against West Ham highlighted the differences: we play long ball, they play hoof and hope; we're physical but they bully; we're defensive-minded but they park the bus. I wouldn't pay to watch that sh*te even occasionally and certainly not every week.

 

In short, if West Ham had a squad and manager with any sense of style and tactics, they would be a less effective version of us.

 

Do you really believe this? DO you really think that a premier league football team in 2013 plays long, hopeful balls all the time?

[SaintDonkey]

We have indeed played the most long balls, but we're also 4th in terms of possession, 5th in terms of number of crosses, 5th in terms of through balls and 10th in terms of short passes (so average). Our pass completion is a bit disappointing at 78.7% (down in 13th).

 

West Ham in contrast are 14th in possession, 11th in crosses, dead last both in through balls, short passes and pass completion.

 

We do a lot of long balls, but we do a lot of everything because we have the ball a lot and mix up our play.

[jjsaint]

Do you really believe this? DO you really think that a premier league football team in 2013 plays long, hopeful balls all the time?

 

No, but I believe a jumped-up championship team from East London do so more often than is attractive and/or sensible.

[Saint_clark]

Can a long ball be a long pass along the ground? Seen Morgan do (& Big Vic try!) that those a number of times to release Osvaldo or Lallana.

 

I seem to remember a "long ball" being classed as anything over 20 yards, so switching it as we do quite often will count towards it. Even our CBs sometimes pass it to the full backs further distance than that...

Edited 2 October, 2013 by Saint_clark

[Charlie Wayman]

Not sure that's quite right but there does seem to be a disconnect between the ball passing skills of the back 6 and the ability of the front four to run and pass in the final third. Anybody who watched Arsenal on TV last night will have recognised the style of play immediately as much like ours at the back and in the middle of the park but of a very much higher level of speed and intensity and with the essential difference that their players moved on into the final third with exactly the same style of quick open play and movement and of course as we saw penetrated the oppo defence with ease.

 

Only Adam Lallana of our front four has the level of ball skill of the Arsenal front four and there's the rub. He can't do iut on his own. Ricky is an old fashioned up and under striker whilst Osvaldo and Rodrigues are channel runners mainly without a high level of retention, deft movement, close vision awareness and passing skills that would allow them to dart about in intricate little four-yarder passing movements that confuse and open up defences.

 

Last night Arsenal seemed to be capable of annihilating anybody and it must have been a one-off but as a yardstick for our aspirations it did rather point up our limitations. But, we are not WHU and we are not per se "long-ball".

 

Long Ball by the way is not all that bad as Howard Wilkinson once pointed out from his analysis of many goal scoring moves. He proved that goals more often follow 2 or 3 touch moves rather than long drawn out showmanship moves of 20+ pass, yet instinctively fans prefer (these days) the multi-pass method because it more delights the eye and heart.

[Saint_clark]

Beat me to it. What is a long ball and what is the difference between playing a long ball and a "hoofball" as some on here like to describe it. Surely the best teams would be able to mix it up, play it short at times and play it long at other times. I've certainly seem Man United play long balls regularly over the 20 years or so they dominated English football, yet some people seem to think there is something wrong with it.

 

Does anyone believe that premier league footballers simply hump it high, long, hopeful balls looking for the flicks from the big man onto the little nippy man to pick up? Or that they play 1980's "get it into the mixer" football? Despite all the bile aimed at West Ham for their supposed "hoofball" the way they play is nothing like 1980s Wimbledon. Although we do have a fair percentage of "GET RID OF IT" "GET IT FORRWARRRRRRRRRRRRRRD!!!!!" "STOP MESSING ABOUT WITH IT!" merchants inside SMS who would like to see us play that way it would seem

 

P*sses me off so much. One bloke near me was screaming at Davis to get it in the box for ages against Palace, then when he did and it went through to the keeper he shouted "what was the f*cking point of that".

[stevegrant]

I believe Opta's definition of a "long ball" is any pass that is greater than 25m in distance, regardless of direction and elevation. Therefore a backpass from the centre circle along the ground back to Boruc is classed as a "long ball", as is a sideways pass between Lovren and Fonte who have taken up positions either side of the penalty area, as is a cross from 10-20 yards short of the penalty area. As a result, it's a highly unreliable statistic to use to demonstrate how "direct" a team plays.

[Turkish]

I believe Opta's definition of a "long ball" is any pass that is greater than 25m in distance, regardless of direction and elevation. Therefore a backpass from the centre circle along the ground back to Boruc is classed as a "long ball", as is a sideways pass between Lovren and Fonte who have taken up positions either side of the penalty area, as is a cross from 10-20 yards short of the penalty area. As a result, it's a highly unreliable statistic to use to demonstrate how "direct" a team plays.

 

So like a lot of stats, completely pointless.

[stevegrant]

So like a lot of stats, completely pointless.

Yep.

 

If the stat was "forward passes over 25m that are played above head height" then it may carry a bit more weight.

[Gemmel]

Yes I agree with the above, we need evidence otherwise this is a disgraceful piece attempting to destabilise us. How dare they say we aren't a brilliant free flowing side playing glorious soccerball.

 

Do you know any jokes about Ali Dia or Rudi Skatchel..............

[Turkish]

Do you know any jokes about Ali Dia or Rudi Skatchel..............[/QUOTE]

 

has he signed yet?

[Patrick Bateman]

It's trendy.

Look at the amount of goals scored last weekend by a long ball from the Goalkeeper ... quite a few. Bang, straight down the middle (hoofball!?), striker splits the defence and scores. There were at least 3 I can think of.

 

Turkish is right ... the "get it fooorrrwwwarrrddd" terrace managers will love it!

[Dellman]

Regards the original question, I thought it was going to be about turning into the old West Ham, the West Ham that had the reputation of producing the finest young talent who became the backbone of the England team, yes we are turning into that West Ham

[The9]

I believe Opta's definition of a "long ball" is any pass that is greater than 25m in distance, regardless of direction and elevation. Therefore a backpass from the centre circle along the ground back to Boruc is classed as a "long ball", as is a sideways pass between Lovren and Fonte who have taken up positions either side of the penalty area, as is a cross from 10-20 yards short of the penalty area. As a result, it's a highly unreliable statistic to use to demonstrate how "direct" a team plays.

 

Wanyama is the absolute king of this, to the extent that I now refer to it as the "Wanyama Ball". Passing 30 yards backwards in order to keep possession, sometimes followed by a hoof upfield under pressure by a defender or keeper anyway - but also sometimes resulting in a simple pass and building again.

 

We've stopped whacking cultured Wanyama raking passes to the opposing centre backs now as seen against Sociedad, and excessive diagonal high-risk play-switching passes to the opposite flank, at least. I'm assuming Pochettino saw the outcomes were not as beneficial in practice as they appeared to be in theory.

Edited 2 October, 2013 by The9

[Saint Garrett]

You can look at our 'long balls' on FourFourTwo stats zone. I copied a few onto another thread about long balls a few weeks ago but heres a few more.

 

Vs Palace

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694956/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

Vs Liverpool

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694944/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

Vs West Ham

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694936/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

Vs Norwich

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694927/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

We're not particularly 'long ball' in a direct way, but we do like to switch the ball a lot, and have used the wings more this season that last IMO

[scdean]

agree with all of you.

 

as i said in the OP, i was bringing this to light, but dont agree with it as such. we do put more long balls forward this year than last, but as mentioned, this has been against teams that play similar ways and sit back.

 

i enjoy our passing game, but sometimes feel we are good at using this to move into the midfield, but then we arent cutting edge enough to get it into our strikers' feet. Osvaldo is brilliant in tight quarters when in the 18yard box, but we dont get him in that position often enough. i dont think that he is all that quick but we seem to put balls (be them long balls or through balls) out in front of him too much. get the ball to his feet.

 

and just on another note re VW. he is menacing in defence, but my god he is horrible with distribution. as someone said before "get the ball off 'em Victor, n just give it to morgan".

i read that one of the scottish managers laughed when he heard that celtic had 'conned' someone into paying 12m for VW. he said that 'yes he would win the ball for them but they would just sit back n wait for him to give it back'.

here's hoping he fixes that part of his game, then he WILL BE a beast.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

There is certainly a difference between playing long balls, and the 'Hoofball' associated with Big Sam/Tony Pulis.

 

For example, this is a long ball, but I wouldn't class it in the same category seen by those above, ironically it is against Big Sam's WHU:

 

[video=youtube;DPf-lrsAId0]

[The9]

You can look at our 'long balls' on FourFourTwo stats zone. I copied a few onto another thread about long balls a few weeks ago but heres a few more.

 

Vs Palace

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694956/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

Vs Liverpool

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694944/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

Vs West Ham

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694936/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

Vs Norwich

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2013/matches/694927/team-stats/20/1_PASS_12#tabs-wrapper-anchor

 

We're not particularly 'long ball' in a direct way, but we do like to switch the ball a lot, and have used the wings more this season that last IMO

 

Interesting to note that almost all of our long balls in our own half are successful (i.e. under little pressure), and our long balls (conventional, our half to opponents' half) are far less successful in the away games at Norwich and Liverpool than in the home games.

[scdean]

Regards the original question, I thought it was going to be about turning into the old West Ham, the West Ham that had the reputation of producing the finest young talent who became the backbone of the England team, yes we are turning into that West Ham

 

good call Dellman.

maybe i will repost this wit ha different slant. hopefully we produce a successful england team though, rather than an under performing one.

[Saint Garrett]

agree with all of you.

 

as i said in the OP, i was bringing this to light, but dont agree with it as such. we do put more long balls forward this year than last, but as mentioned, this has been against teams that play similar ways and sit back.

 

i enjoy our passing game, but sometimes feel we are good at using this to move into the midfield, but then we arent cutting edge enough to get it into our strikers' feet. Osvaldo is brilliant in tight quarters when in the 18yard box, but we dont get him in that position often enough. i dont think that he is all that quick but we seem to put balls (be them long balls or through balls) out in front of him too much. get the ball to his feet.

 

and just on another note re VW. he is menacing in defence, but my god he is horrible with distribution. as someone said before "get the ball off 'em Victor, n just give it to morgan".

i read that one of the scottish managers laughed when he heard that celtic had 'conned' someone into paying 12m for VW. he said that 'yes he would win the ball for them but they would just sit back n wait for him to give it back'.

here's hoping he fixes that part of his game, then he WILL BE a beast.

 

Think it was quite funny when I was flicking through the papaers on Sunday.

 

In one he got an 8 and MOM and in another he got a 5 and our worst performer. I guess it depends what you expect from him. He is superb at winning it back and he's a big strong lad who rarely gets tackled, however his distribution is absolutely dreadful when it seems to much easier to make the pass than give it away.

[washsaint]

We are not an attractive side to watch this year - get the job done , yes but not in a way that is pleasant on the eye. Having watched every game on NBC over here, there is very little of the free flowing football from last year and much more 'hit and hope'.

 

We are a solid, unspectacular side - but not an entertaining side right now.

[farawaysaint]

We are not an attractive side to watch this year - get the job done , yes but not in a way that is pleasant on the eye. Having watched every game on NBC over here, there is very little of the free flowing football from last year and much more 'hit and hope'.

 

We are a solid, unspectacular side - but not an entertaining side right now.

 

So many people saying this and yet I just don't see it? I've watched every game and think we're quite entertaining and nowhere near the drivel of West Ham.

[Saint Garrett]

So many people saying this and yet I just don't see it? I've watched every game and think we're quite entertaining and nowhere near the drivel of West Ham.

 

I definitely think we're more efficient under MP, but would still say we're pretty good to watch.

[skintsaint]

Think it was quite funny when I was flicking through the papaers on Sunday.

 

In one he got an 8 and MOM and in another he got a 5 and our worst performer. I guess it depends what you expect from him. He is superb at winning it back and he's a big strong lad who rarely gets tackled, however his distribution is absolutely dreadful when it seems to much easier to make the pass than give it away.

 

Generally his short passes when winning the ball make it, barring a couple. 2nd half especially vs Palace, he got excited and tried first time through balls from distance a lot more and it was pretty frustrating. Just give a simple ball to MS or the full backs. Makelelelelele made a whole career out of this.

[The9]

As I have noted elsewhere, I think we are incredibly dull at the moment. Only 5 goals scored in 6 matches including 3 at home, two of which were against the likely divisional whipping boys, says a lot. Entertainment doesn't necessarily = goals and vice versa, but at the same time, we often seem ponderous on the ball and clearly love a backpass in preference to a forward ball.

 

In the Championship season we frequently overlooked the through ball for some sideways possession, but at least that came with movement and the knowledge we were pullling the opposition around.

 

At the moment we seem to get it, have a think about it, wait for the opposing defence to organise, and then pop it about in the inoffensive arc outside the box (I may trademark that ) without looking like we have any chance of creating a chance in open play. Strachan used to call it "propaganda football", though ours is supposed to serve the purpose of easing pressure on the defence - rather than just not creating anything.

 

I think for me it's a combination of not enough off the ball movement, not enough risk taking in the attacking third (the times we played off-the-cuff flicks and moved the ball with pace against West Ham we looked likely to score from some jammy deflections for more often than when we were in controlled possession against Palace), and just not moving the ball around quickly enough to threaten to unlock the defence.

 

We're not actively offensive like West Ham's one-time random launchball, but also we're not the free-flowing, exciting, attacking side we were for much of last season (crappy defending not necessarily being a consequence) and we don't even seem to have the excitement of wholesale pressing.

 

One thing I will say, Pochettino has done well to avoid us being "that pressing team which is easy to play long ball against", which is what we were in April and May, so maybe it's just about sliding the balance a little more towards "attack" again?

Edited 2 October, 2013 by The9

[andrew123]

P*sses me off so much. One bloke near me was screaming at Davis to get it in the box for ages against Palace, then when he did and it went through to the keeper he shouted "what was the f*cking point of that".

 

Block 38?

[Saint Garrett]

Maybe something to do with MP saying the other day that we use possession as a defensive tactic. When we have the ball we're not always wanting to score, just keeping the ball. We do need to have a 'moments' for a bit longer in games though. We played for about 5 minutes against Palace and went 2-0 up, then the rest of the game we were playing keep ball.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

My early conclusions:

 

1. We are far more pragmatic in our football

2. We have lots of more tactical flexibility both in shape and type of football played

3. We are more fluid without the ball, but less fluid with it

4. We attack with numbers but do not risk losing the ball so we can be attacked - this can sometimes dilute how aesthetically pleasing we are to watch

5. We appear to be using players for very specific roles and their talent level as a footballer matters far less than their ability to do certain things in the 'system'

 

Overall we are less pleasing on the eye but we still have licence to entertain - it is just that it is circumstantial and not a default tactic.

 

I'm far happier seeing us 6th in the table with tactical versatility than perhaps being 14th and a 'nice' side to watch.

[Saint_clark]

Block 38?

 

Nah, 42. But I'd imagine there's a few of his type scattered about the place.

[Saint Garrett]

Read through this if you think we're like WHU !

 

http://westhamonline.net/forum_flat.php?7003123|o

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Maybe something to do with MP saying the other day that we use possession as a defensive tactic. When we have the ball we're not always wanting to score, just keeping the ball. We do need to have a 'moments' for a bit longer in games though. We played for about 5 minutes against Palace and went 2-0 up, then the rest of the game we were playing keep ball.

 

First things first, I am not saying we are as good as, or even remotely comparable in terms of quality - before Mr. Sarcasm comes along and tries to say the whole forum thinks this.

 

But this is the same tactic used by Del Bosque with Spain. Some people find it boring, I quite like it. Simply put, if you have the ball the other team cannot score.

[Sour Mash]

First things first, I am not saying we are as good as, or even remotely comparable in terms of quality - before Mr. Sarcasm comes along and tries to say the whole forum thinks this.

 

But this is the same tactic used by Del Bosque with Spain. Some people find it boring, I quite like it. Simply put, if you have the ball the other team cannot score.

It is boring. Any tactic that favours defence over attack is.

[adrian lord]

In our early 80s heyday of one-touch passing football we still saw many glorious sweeping 40 yard cross field pinpoint passes. Long balls aren't necessarily uncultured punts.