Miliband's father

[buctootim]

Thanks for patronising me. I know perfectly well what Anarchy and Maxism are. There are many ways to define anarchy, as there are also many forms of it. Your example is not like mine one little bit, but see what you want to. I stick by my point.

 

You haven't yet defined politics in a way that excludes Viking Warrior or me from being able to express an opinion because apparently we both don't know what we're talking about.

 

You seem perfectly smug that you are qualified even to express an opinion that Milliband senior didn't know what he was talking about

 

 

 

What qualifications are these by the way?

 

Politics as an academic subject is not an exact science any more than economics is, therefore proving one's position as right or wrong is impossible and depends on one's viewpoint, rather than an arrogant you don't know what you're talking about response such as you employed.

 

Politics as a cover-all label encompassing everyday experiences of such diverse things as education, health, immigration, taxation, foreign policy, etc, cannot preclude the man in the street from having an opinion just because they have no academic political studies behind them and in any event those teachings would be slanted by the political leanings of the tutor.

 

So when you say that somebody is not qualified to speak about political matters, then by your narrow definition you disenfranchise the majority of the electorate.

 

 

I didn't say you couldn't speak. It was just surprising to me that you feel qualified to attack Miliband senior's politics and patriotism without knowing what he stood for or believed in. In one thread you demonstrated that you didn't know the difference between the New Left movement of the '60s and New Labour in the '90s and thought that by teaching Marxism people would get frustrated and turn to anarchy. Those are big gaffes even by Daily Mail standards.

 

ps I'm very interested in the different forms of anarchy. Can you expand on that?

Edited 3 October, 2013 by buctootim

[holepuncture]

 

LOL, that is GOLD!

 

Poor old Ed, he was doing quite well out of all this!

[ericb]

Just fyi anarchism is about rejecting governments, hierachy and authority. Marxism is about enforcing social equality. They're the antithesis of each other

 

Except they're not, libertarian communism (aka anarchism) is if anything the logical conclusion of the marixist dialectic. Hence why Marx and Proudhon fell out (as can be seen by the Poverty of Philosophy amongst other works). What you're doing is mistaking the hierarchy of Leninism with Marxism.

 

I think the biggest problem with this whole thing, apart from the fact that the Daily Mail is attempting hijack what it means to be English/British (and i for one don't want to be from a Britain where their values are our values, i'd rather be from the one of the diggers/levellers/William Morris/Hobbes/Hume/Adam-Smith/Russell).

Is that it's going to be start of a very dirty campaign in the upcoming election that will ultimately only devalue politics and make the majority concentrate on the personal/personality over the policies.

[solentstars]

[buctootim]

Except they're not, libertarian communism (aka anarchism) is if anything the logical conclusion of the marixist dialectic. .

 

Just as you can equally argue that an unregulated market free for all is the natural product of anarchism.

 

The point really is about whether or not its right attack a dead man based on a false premise about his beliefs and patriotism in order to score points against his son, whose politics you happen to disagree with. I agree it makes for a very dirty campaign.

[Wes Tender]

I didn't say you couldn't speak. It was just surprising to me that you feel qualified to attack Miliband senior's politics and patriotism without knowing what he stood for or believed in. In one thread you demonstrated that you didn't know the difference between the New Left movement of the '60s and New Labour in the '90s and thought that by teaching Marxism people would get frustrated and turn to anarchy. Those are big gaffes even by Daily Mail standards.

 

ps I'm very interested in the different forms of anarchy. Can you expand on that?

 

If I attacked Ralph Milliband's politics, it was from the perspective that politically I prefer the capitalist system to Marxist ideology and view his position from the opposite end of the political spectrum. He was entitled to his opinion, which you on the other hand have actually felt sufficiently qualified to label as wrong. Do I have to know his views on every facet of his politics, or is it sufficient to know what his beliefs are because he was a Marxist?

 

I didn't myself attack his patriotism, you must be thinking of somebody else. I merely commented that I didn't appreciate him coming over here as a refugee and then plotting ways to overthrow the establishment that had offered him shelter from the Nazi tyranny. It smacks of ingratitude to me. But because we are quite a liberal country, we seem happy to allow all sorts of nasty people also to follow their own political agendas excusing it as the right to free speech, even though many would be shot or imprisoned for those views in their own countries.

 

If you want to learn about the different types of anarchy and anarchism, then do your own research, I can't be bothered. I assure you that these different forms and definitions exist.

 

PS I'm still waiting for your definition of politics.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

http://toys.usvsth3m.com/are-you-hated-by-the-daily-mail/

[buctootim]

I didn't myself attack his patriotism, you must be thinking of somebody else. I merely commented that I didn't appreciate him coming over here as a refugee and then plotting ways to overthrow the establishment that had offered him shelter from the Nazi tyranny.

 

Well that's clear. He wasn't unpatriotic, just an ungrateful immigrant trying to overthrow the British system and government.

 

If you want to learn about the different types of anarchy and anarchism, then do your own research, I can't be bothered. PS I'm still waiting for your definition of politics.

 

Pity, it was so promising on the gaffe level. Still, if you can't be bothered, I can't be bothered.

 

...

Edited 3 October, 2013 by buctootim

[Sheaf Saint]

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You have just supported my assertion that this little episode will not be forgotten into the future, as you yourself have given anecdotal evidence of arguably a far more trivial event from a few years back. Whilst we're reminiscing about that last election, you've reminded me of the derogatory remarks that Brown made about a Labour party worker he met, when he was oblivious to the fact that every word could be heard and was recorded. Were the press within their rights to report that? Or would you label it as a blatant attempt by the gutter press to discredit him?

 

No, what people primarily remember about the misspelling incident is the gross unfairness of the Sun's attack on Gordon Brown - not his unintended spelling error. In both that incident and the matter we are debating here, it is the injustice of the attack that sticks in the memory because (I say) it goes against the grain of our national character. Again I must reject the mainstay of your argument, I don't happen to think that the British people are this bovine-like bunch of dullards utterly at the mercy of Right Wing opinion formers you consider them to be.

 

As for your other 'point', of course the press were within their rights to report such a story - exposing the private views of our leaders is one of the reasons we have a free press. What on earth that has to do with a blatant attempt by the Daily Mail to smear the Leader of the Opposition by employed the discredited 'Guilt by Association' technique so popular in totalitarian states is quite another matter.

 

But at least you are not making a fool of yourself by calling him 'Millipede' at every opportunity - a 'joke' that apparently passes for wit on here now.

 

Edited 3 October, 2013 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Viking Warrior]

Buctootim

 

Not confused,

 

Marxism Socialists, anarchists they are not representative of the majority of the population

Equally on the right Nazis BNB, EDL are not representative of the majority of the population

 

If Marxists . socialist believe in fairness for all , how come there is so much poverty and lack of freedom in the areas they control

[Viking Warrior]

Bucktootim

 

Im sure if you did some further research you will find that there is distinct link of Marxism (libertarian or autonomist Marxism) to which anarchists often feel close and whose followers often express a closeness to anarchism.

 

Im sure that many anarchists look favorably on various aspects of Marxism. but hey dont let that cloud the issue.

 

After all your a supremist it the fountain of knowledge compared to Wes. Myself and others who have a different view

[aintforever]

Neither are, but it seemed all well and good slating Maggie when she died.

 

No it didn't, some on here had a right hissy fit over the ding dong stuff.

[badgerx16]

 

If Marxists . socialist believe in fairness for all , how come there is so much poverty and lack of freedom in the areas they control

 

If capitalism is such a success, why are children going hungry in the USA ?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21636723

 

And why are there 'food banks' in this country ?

[ecuk268]

Why? It is a reasonable point. If somebody as intellectually capable as Red Ralph supposedly was, had mild socialist leanings at 15 turned into full-blooded Marxism by Harold Laski at the LSE, then why wouldn't it be possible for others to be indoctrinated by their lefty lecturers, or for him to in turn indoctrinate his pupils when he was a lecturer himself?

 

According to John Moore (now Lord Moore) who was one of the more right-wing members of Thatcher's Cabinet, it "beggars belief that the Mail could accuse Ralph Milliband of lacking patriotism". He says "Ralph Milliband taught me (at LSE) and I can say that he was the most respected and objective of teachers that I had. The Daily Mail is telling lies about a good man who I knew".

 

The article also drew criticism from Lord Heseltine and Boris Johnson. The only politician who supported the Mail was Michael Gove (probably because his wife writes a column for them).

 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/daily-mail-hates-everyone-in-britain-2013100279973

Edited 3 October, 2013 by ecuk268

[solentstars]

for all daily mail readers "just heard they have alot of blackshirts for sale with 50 % discount

[Viking Warrior]

I'm not disputing some the fact some aspects of capitalism are equally bad . But Marxism and socialism which are about fairness for all is equally unsavoury

 

As for food banks. I'm don't know enough about them to make a balanced comment but they appear to be out of sync in the uk compared to third world countries . I think someone decided this was a good think got national coverage and the whole thing snowballed . Some do gooders up here have jumped on the bandwagon and started one up here . I'm not sure why as there is lots of support up here given the close knit community

[badgerx16]

........ But Marxism and socialism which are about fairness for all is equally unsavoury

 

 

Socialism isn't unsavoury, it just falls foul of the innate greed and avarice that all political systems engender in their leadership. And don't for a second fall in to the trap of assuming Stalin, Mao, or Mugabe had/have anything to do with Socialism - after all, what was the name of Hitler's party ?

[Jonnyboy]

[Jonnyboy]

If Millipede cannot hack the harsh glare of media scrutiny, he's in the wrong job.

 

For me the most annoying aspects of the Daily Mail currently are the stupid badly written scripts that slow the website down so much that I could read the news item quicker if I walked back to the UK first, and the fact that most of the news items are from America and you are left scratching your head wondering "who the f**k is that?"

 

Then I think you are on the wrong website.

[OldNick]

Socialism isn't unsavoury, it just falls foul of the innate greed and avarice that all political systems engender in their leadership. And don't for a second fall in to the trap of assuming Stalin, Mao, or Mugabe had/have anything to do with Socialism - after all, what was the name of Hitler's party ?

Socialism is a decent idea, but when it comes to power it never is quite what the masses had hoped for. It much be on par with religion as the biggest murderer/killer of mankind there has been

[Wes Tender]

 

Do you post that from the position of knowing what it is like to spend time in a mental hospital?

[badgerx16]

Socialism is a decent idea, but when it comes to power it never is quite what the masses had hoped for. It much be on par with religion as the biggest murderer/killer of mankind there has been

 

I think that colonialism and slavery, both strongly based on expansionist capitalist ideals, are up there as well.

[badgerx16]

 

Unnecessary, unfunny, and for some, offensive.

[OldNick]

I think that colonialism and slavery, both strongly based on expansionist capitalist ideals, are up there as well.

I didnt realise that the Russian expansion after the 2nd world war was capitalist. Their slavery of those people and the working to death of the 100,ooo's of German prisoners of war could also be construed as slavery.Im sure that slavery that is pretty awful has been going on in all societys for all time.

[buctootim]

I didnt realise that the Russian expansion after the 2nd world war was capitalist. Their slavery of those people and the working to death of the 100,ooo's of German prisoners of war could also be construed as slavery.Im sure that slavery that is pretty awful has been going on in all societys for all time.

 

Surely the point is that absolute power over others corrupts absolutely and by now everyone knows that unregulated capitalism, corporatism, collectivism or any variant of dictatorship don't work. A regulated market economy in a social democracy is what nearly every country in the world has now settled on as the best way forward. The debates now are about nothing more radical than whether taxation should be 40% or 42% of GDP and bus fares for OAPs should be free. Thats why the Daily Mail hatchet attempt was so pathetic.

Edited 4 October, 2013 by buctootim

[badgerx16]

I didnt realise that the Russian expansion after the 2nd world war was capitalist. Their slavery of those people and the working to death of the 100,ooo's of German prisoners of war could also be construed as slavery.Im sure that slavery that is pretty awful has been going on in all societys for all time.

 

Do you deliberately misread other peoples posts ? You know full well that the point I was making was that, in response to your jibe at socialism and religion, that slavery ( especially as praticed by the UK and the US - a purely capitalist enterprise driven by profit ), and colonialism ( driven by 'what yours is ours' asset stripping greed ) were equally effective at mass oppression.

[angelman]

Whatever you think of Miliband, Labour or the Daily Mail - criticising a dead man to get at his son seems to be a new low in journalism. The Mail's piece is based on a diary Miliband's father wrote when was 17 having just fled the Nazis and was in a strange country.

 

Not going to read through all the posts, so apologies if this has been covered.

 

I heard someone on the radio asking whether it was really different from the continued comments/questions about Cameron, his father and upbringing? One is considered a "toff" and the other a "commie". Both have influenced the way their children think, so where is the difference? I would quantify that by saying I do not agree with the headline about Milliband's father, especially as he isn't here to defend himself and anyone who went to war in a boat, can't really hate this country, can they?

 

On the same radio programme (I think it was on R5L after PMQs) someone mentioned that it wouldn't reflect well on Milliband as you don't really want your PM (or potential one) being so easily riled and upset.

 

Again, my personal feelings is that this was all rather unnecessary by the Mail.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Not going to read through all the posts, so apologies if this has been covered.

 

I heard someone on the radio asking whether it was really different from the continued comments/questions about Cameron, his father and upbringing? One is considered a "toff" and the other a "commie". Both have influenced the way their children think, so where is the difference? I would quantify that by saying I do not agree with the headline about Milliband's father, especially as he isn't here to defend himself and anyone who went to war in a boat, can't really hate this country, can they?

 

On the same radio programme (I think it was on R5L after PMQs) someone mentioned that it wouldn't reflect well on Milliband as you don't really want your PM (or potential one) being so easily riled and upset.

 

Again, my personal feelings is that this was all rather unnecessary by the Mail.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens

[buctootim]

I think its perfectly reasonable to look into a leading politicians upbringing to see what kind of school they went to, how wealthy / deprived their parents were. As far as I'm aware no-one criticised Cameron's parents and nor should they. Its more about keeping politicians 'honest and true' and not lying / misrepresenting their backgrounds in order to appeal to some demographic or other.

 

Labour environment minister Michael Meacher got caught out a few years ago after claiming he was the son of a farm labourer - it turned out dad owned the farm and half the adjoining county. That's a proper function of the press. The Mail turned that function on its head by lying about a politician's background and the politician (and others) had to correct them.

[OldNick]

Do you deliberately misread other peoples posts ? You know full well that the point I was making was that, in response to your jibe at socialism and religion, that slavery ( especially as praticed by the UK and the US - a purely capitalist enterprise driven by profit ), and colonialism ( driven by 'what yours is ours' asset stripping greed ) were equally effective at mass oppression.

I read it as you were suggesting that slavery and colonialism was a western/capitalist thing. All systems have their bad points, Iam very happy to be in the Free world, with its faults. It was not a jibe at socialism or religion it is my belief. If you could give me reasons that this is wrong I am happy to listen.

If we had followed the Bolsheviks after WWI I doubt the world would have the internet and mobile phone systems etc as the fear or Free thought and word is a danger to those type of societies.There definitely would not be debates like we have now on here,as we would have been brain washed in our formative years, not by our parents but by the authorities.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think its perfectly reasonable to look into a leading politicians upbringing to see what kind of school they went to, how wealthy / deprived their parents were. As far as I'm aware no-one criticised Cameron's parents and nor should they. Its more about keeping politicians 'honest and true' and not lying / misrepresenting their backgrounds in order to appeal to some demographic or other.

 

Labour environment minister Michael Meacher got caught out a few years ago after claiming he was the son of a farm labourer - it turned out dad owned the farm and half the adjoining county. That's a proper function of the press. The Mail turned that function on its head by lying about a politician's background and the politician (and others) had to correct them.

 

That is what the Daily Mail did but in a tactless way. Miliband talked of his Father's influence and inevitably that would lead to debate on his politics.

[OldNick]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens

I assume that all will turn on the Guardian as it is having a go at the deceased? Of course not ,as it is against the Tory boy.

 

I have never been in the position or want to have money invested in a tax haven and frown upon those that do. Sir Phillip Green for one. If people make the majority of their money in this country, they should pay their fair taxes into that country.

[badgerx16]

If we had followed the Bolsheviks after WWI I doubt the world would have the internet and mobile phone systems etc as the fear or Free thought and word is a danger to those type of societies.There definitely would not be debates like we have now on here,as we would have been brain washed in our formative years, not by our parents but by the authorities.

 

Bolshevism may be a distorted reading of socialism, but socialism is most certainly NOT bolshevism. You might as well equate Al Quaeda with Islam.

[buctootim]

I assume that all will turn on the Guardian as it is having a go at the deceased? Of course not ,as it is against the Tory boy.

 

Do you take pleasure in being deliberately obtuse? The Guardian piece is factual. There is no value judgement and more to the point no outright lies about Cameron senior hating this country or wanting to destroy the welfare state.

[OldNick]

Do you take pleasure in being deliberately obtuse? The Guardian piece is factual. There is no value judgement and more to the point no outright lies about Cameron senior hating this country or wanting to destroy the welfare state.

the headline was not mentioning it was completely legal though was it? it is just another clever/subtle smear, again causing division by envy. Cameron had no influence on his fathers investments. If it was Cameron now doing the same I would be right alongside you criticising him. (by the way Im not a Cameron fan)

[buctootim]

the headline was not mentioning it was completely legal though was it?

 

"Revealed: David Cameron's father built up legal offshore funds in Panama and Geneva"

 

Which part of that didnt you understand?

[Wes Tender]

The Mail turned that function on its head by lying about a politician's background and the politician (and others) had to correct them.

 

Refresh my memory on what the lie about Miliband's background was please. The only bit I recall being worthy of question was whether his father hated Britain and is that a lie about his background, or merely a debateably mistaken conclusion based purely on his attitudes towards the country that offered him an escape from Nazi tyranny?

[buctootim]

Refresh my memory on what the lie about Miliband's background was please. The only bit I recall being worthy of question was whether his father hated Britain and is that a lie about his background, or merely a debateably mistaken conclusion based purely on his attitudes towards the country that offered him an escape from Nazi tyranny?

 

Im not debating with you any more Wes. I've got a cat.

[Wes Tender]

Im not debating with you any more Wes. I've got a cat.

 

I fear for the cat. Are you going to kick it?

[buctootim]

I fear for the cat. Are you going to kick it?

 

No I'm training it to read the Daily Mail. Once the easy stuff is out of the way we're going for housetraining. Seriously I don't know why you don't just say - "yes it was distasteful it was an error of judgement". At least four past and current Conservative ministers have come and and said that. The Mail really is on a downward trashy slope on all kinds of fronts. Read the Telegraph instead - right wing but with facts in it. You really cant trust the Mail to report even a blue tinged version of the truth anymore, and havent been able for several years.

[solentstars]

daily mail have just changed the layout on the crossword to try to get back alot of there older readership

[angelman]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/apr/20/cameron-family-tax-havens

 

I look at that - David Cameron's father built up legal offshore funds in Panama and Geneva - see the word legal and gave up reading.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Not going to read through all the posts, so apologies if this has been covered.

 

I heard someone on the radio asking whether it was really different from the continued comments/questions about Cameron, his father and upbringing? One is considered a "toff" and the other a "commie". Both have influenced the way their children think, so where is the difference? I would quantify that by saying I do not agree with the headline about Milliband's father, especially as he isn't here to defend himself and anyone who went to war in a boat, can't really hate this country, can they?

 

On the same radio programme (I think it was on R5L after PMQs) someone mentioned that it wouldn't reflect well on Milliband as you don't really want your PM (or potential one) being so easily riled and upset.

 

Again, my personal feelings is that this was all rather unnecessary by the Mail.

 

Pretty good summary.

 

Michael White was on the Guardian political podcast with Toynbee. He made a quite similar point, as well as acknowledging that some of the Guardian's output regarding Thatcher was offensive. He also said that it was part Father/Son, but also part apolitical calculation. One to show Red Ed was willing to stand up to bully's, but two to try and close down Mail criticism of his part in the McBride stuff. Said he can now defend any press mention of what he knew and what he didn't know about McBride/Brown operation, by saying "look what the press did to my dad, they're trying to smear me again". This was the most sensible thing I've heard a member of the Left establishment has said about the whole thing. Toynbee was as poisonous as ever. As well as ranting about the mail, attacked Cameron's response as half hearted and disgracefully wondering why David Milliband was being so quite. Perhaps he didn't love his Dad as much as good old Ed, Polly.

 

The thing the left don't seem to get is that the Mail and most of their readers DO consider someone with his beliefs as hating the country, just as countless Scots and Northerners think that Maggie hated them. It was not a lie,made up to smera Red Ed, they believe it. I think it's muddle headed thinking, but I wish people would stop saying it was a lie, it was a badly thought through opinion.

[angelman]

daily mail have just changed the layout on the crossword to try to get back alot of there older readership

 

Does anyone really take DM seriously? I have known a few the intimate details of a few stories that they have run, and the truth is very far from what they have written. And this is when they aren't trying to be malicious. So I do wonder whether any of their stories are accurate.

 

But with this Milliband thing, I don't know why they sent an undercover reporter to the 29th floor of some hospital building to snoop on a Milliband's uncle's memorial. The next general election is 18 months or so away, and the dirty tricks are starting in earnest. UKIP has received a wee bit from DM, but this is far too personal and comes across as nothing less than being spiteful.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Does anyone really take DM seriously? .

 

It's not quite as black and white as some make out.

 

There have been some great pieces and campaigns over the years. The Stephen Lawrence one drew praise from all quarters and they were the paper that first named the killers.

 

They also ran a story in the mid 60's stating there were 4,000 potholes in Blackburn, Lancs. One of their lunatic fringe middle class reader's used it in a song.

[Scummer]

But with this Milliband thing, I don't know why they sent an undercover reporter to the 29th floor of some hospital building to snoop on a Milliband's uncle's memorial. The next general election is 18 months or so away, and the dirty tricks are starting in earnest. UKIP has received a wee bit from DM, but this is far too personal and comes across as nothing less than being spiteful.

 

How dare you smear the Daily Mail with the sins of it's sister the Mail on Sunday! Just because one relative does something, you shouldn't assume it's siblings will do the same!

[buctootim]

The thing the left don't seem to get is that the Mail and most of their readers DO consider someone with his beliefs as hating the country, just as countless Scots and Northerners think that Maggie hated them. It was not a lie,made up to smera Red Ed, they believe it. I think it's muddle headed thinking, but I wish people would stop saying it was a lie, it was a badly thought through opinion.

 

Thats only a reasonable position to take if you think the role of newspapers is only to print what people want to read and that they owe no obligation to objective truth. Its one thing to present the facts through a left / right / green prism as the Guardian / Telegraph / Independent do and another to print something you know to be untrue because thats what your readers want to hear.

 

People who hate a country don't choose to fight for it and then choose to live in it when he could have returned to his home country or even emigrated to Israel. He also wasn't a revolutionary - any changes he might have wanted to see to UK institutions would have been made by consent through the ballot box - which makes the whole 'evil lagacy' and 'he hated Britain' because he wanted to change things specious. I think we all know what was behind the article - and it wasn't seeking truth and balance.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ed-miliband-v-daily-mail-francis-maude-criticises-newspaper-over-pretty-revolting-story-8856146.html

Edited 4 October, 2013 by buctootim

[angelman]

How dare you smear the Daily Mail with the sins of it's sister the Mail on Sunday! Just because one relative does something, you shouldn't assume it's siblings will do the same!

 

 

It would help if they had a different name like Sun / NotW had as then some people might be convinced/fooled that they were separate entities. The Sun and Sunday Sun (or what ever it is now called - only bought it once because Michelle Keegan was on p3 last Sunday and I wanted to see what they said about Saints) have a name too similar to fool the populous into thinking they are separate.

[Jonnyboy]

Do you post that from the position of knowing what it is like to spend time in a mental hospital?

 

I've spent enough time on this forum to see what it must be like.

 

Of course, if the mail had their way most homosexuals would be locked up in Victorian asylums being "cured."