Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 (edited) Getting quite fanciful but hey, while the sun is shining and all that.... We have had a better start to a Premier League season then I can ever remember and look really quite solid, but with the talk of finishing in the top four what improvements would need to be made to the first team/squad to do this? My take: currently, no of course we are not good enough yet based on the teams around us. There is the potential for many of our players to be good enough in the future (Shaw, Clyne, Morgan) and we do have experience of that level in Boruc, Wanyama and Lovren. (Did Osvaldo play in the CL with Roma?) If we played in any league outside of the main four in europe (Serie A, La Liga, Premier League, Bundesliga) I do think we would be good enough already but it's the nature of the beast that we are in that we are playing catch up against clubs with more money, reputation and appeal for the players that could allow us to progress. - Is this an insurmountable obstacle? We need a little more class going forward, particularly from wide areas. Coutinho would have been perfect and it'll be interesting to see if we keep faith with the current squad or keep adding. Hopefully our strikers as they learn how to play together will become more consistent, there are signs that they are getting there although goals against Palace (who are only heading one way) would surely be a minimum requirement for any side with the ambition our grandiose words hint at. Edited 30 September, 2013 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 It's cloudy and overcast in Shirley... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 2 wins in-a-row, and they're off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September, 2013 It's cloudy and overcast in Shirley... And your opinion for the content after the metaphor Hypo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September, 2013 2 wins in-a-row, and they're off.... The topic begins with the title 'Daring to Dream.' Explain your viewpoint and debate or stop trolling you odious fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I'll give you a sensible opinion on this after 30 games and being in the same position, not after 6. Because then it'll be a sensible topic for discussion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September, 2013 (edited) I'll give you a sensible opinion on this after 30 games and being in the same position, not after 6. Because then it'll be a sensible topic for discussion... It's being discussed by the club itself and a few in the media. It's legitimate and should for me be dissected, for better or worse. It is also a point worth debating as far as the premier league as a whole is concerned, the 'top 4' has been perceived as a closed shop by many, despite the recent removal of Liverpool from that bracket and addition of Manchester City (after Spurs pipped them for one year). Arsenal have survived some recent scares to maintain their place, Manchester United and Chelsea are also always around the summit. What do teams need to do to get among them? Can they get among them? Is having that ambition just a fools errand? If so then it calls into question the efforts many in the game are making at their respective clubs to succeed. The same conversations i'm sure will have been held by fans of Everton, Villa certainly Spurs and possibly even in the past by clubs like Bolton who seemed to all have reached a glass ceiling. How do you (can you) break the bloody thing? Edited 30 September, 2013 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 It's being discussed by the club itself and a few in the media. It's legitimate and should for me be dissected, for better or worse. Imo the club were a bit premature and left itself open to ridicule. I've not picked up on many serious comments in the media. FWIW I think your analysis is spot on, but again, extremely premature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 It's being discussed by the club itself and a few in the media. And they'll end up looking ridiculous as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 It's being discussed by the club itself and a few in the media. It's legitimate and should for me be dissected, for better or worse. It is also a point worth debating as far as the premier league as a whole is concerned, the 'top 4' has been perceived as a closed shop by many, despite the recent removal of Liverpool from that bracket and addition of Manchester City (after Spurs pipped them for one year). Arsenal have survived some recent scares to maintain their place, Manchester United and Chelsea are also always around the summit. What do teams need to do to get among them? Can they get among them? Is having that ambition just a fools errand? If so then it calls into question the efforts many in the game are making at their respective clubs to succeed. The same conversations i'm sure will have been held by fans of Everton, Villa certainly Spurs and possibly even in the past by clubs like Bolton who seemed to all have reached a glass ceiling. How do you (can you) break the bloody thing? I would hope the ambition if the club remains as what it truly is; go into every game hoping/trying to win it. Quite why this "Champions League target ambition" needs to be trotted out so often is a bit bemusing to me. Should we aim for the top 4? Of course we should. Is there a need to reinforce that by making so many public statements about it? Not IMO, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 (Did Osvaldo play in the CL with Roma?) 8 appearances in the Europa in 07/08 for Fiorentina, scoring once, and 4 appearances also for Fiorentina in Champions League 08/09, no goals. He left Fiorentina for Bologna in January 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 And your opinion for the content after the metaphor Hypo? I was using a metaphor of my own. In summary, I think we have very little hence of top four and certainly not on a consistent basis. Players like coutinho will always choose the likes of Liverpool over us and we don't have anything like the squad depth of the top teams. It may be possible to get fourth maybe once but I don't think we have been tested enough yet this season to see it as even a remote possibility this season. We played an under strength Liverpool and got a great win but other than that our performances have been quite time whilst results have been decent (sort of the opposite of last year.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berkshiresaint Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 All we need to do is invest around 100 million in playing staff, beat one of Man U, Citeh, Arsenal, Liverpool & Spurs to 4th place then we are there. Sounds easy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Gorilla 5 Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I imagine that there will need to be a further similar outlay in the January transfer window to that seen in the Summer. £30m plus on 3 players to once more significantly improve the quality and depth of the squad once more. Of course this will be far easier should the club maintain its very healthy league position to the midway point of the season thereby making it a far more attractive proposition to potential signings. Given various other clubs starts to the season it would appear to be as good a time as any to push on in an attempt to break into the 'closed shop' at the top of the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I was using a metaphor of my own. Hinting that things are not as nice as some may perceive. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 All we need to do is invest around 100 million in playing staff, beat one of Man U, Citeh, Arsenal, Liverpool & Spurs to 4th place then we are there. Sounds easy to me. Haven't we invested 50-60 million so far the last two seasons? One more summer of spending and we should be there then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Gradually. Said at the end of last season that player and media perception of us is going to be very important (Lawro aside, obvs ). We would not have progressed if we were just relegation candidates. Given the turmoil last year, 14th was not bad. Pundits have praised us for our playing style and the Gaston effect (get one, get some more) has been crucial too. Like many of us, suffering from a bit of thin air and vertigo atm. Top four this season is unrealistic once injuries take their toll. On this trajectory though (new academy graduates plus solid acquisitions), I think it might be possible the season after next. The academy may be the hammer to smash through the glass ceiling. Exciting times regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyc Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 All we need to do is invest around 100 million in playing staff, beat one of Man U, Citeh, Arsenal, Liverpool & Spurs to 4th place then we are there. Sounds easy to me. Pretty much this. Plus Chelsea. Arsenal Chelsea City Man U Tottenham Liverpool... ...are light years ahead in terms of ability and squad depths. IMO realistically we're scrapping it out with Everton, Swansea and probably West Brom and Villa for 7th - 11th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 The fact is that yes, we are only as high as we are because of the poor starts of other top clubs. But who's to say they're going to make huge improvements throughout the season? United look abysmal at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 It's really not worth talking about at the moment. What we would need to do is outperform three of United, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs which is incredibly unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Gradually. Said at the end of last season that player and media perception of us is going to be very important (Lawro aside, obvs ). We would not have progressed if we were just relegation candidates. Given the turmoil last year, 14th was not bad. Pundits have praised us for our playing style and the Gaston effect (get one, get some more) has been crucial too. Like many of us, suffering from a bit of thin air and vertigo atm. Top four this season is unrealistic once injuries take their toll. On this trajectory though (new academy graduates plus solid acquisitions), I think it might be possible the season after next. The academy may be the hammer to smash through the glass ceiling. Exciting times regardless. I agree with the Gaston point. Reminds me of City/Chelsea the first season they came into money. Signed some 'marquee' players, not all worked out, but it was a starter for getting players the following year. Think Pochettinno helped too, especially in the case of Osvaldo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
influx Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I'll give you a sensible opinion on this after 30 games and being in the same position, not after 6. Because then it'll be a sensible topic for discussion... I'll remind you of this when we lose two games in a row. Oh hang on you normally go on one after we've lost one game. You should adhere to your own advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I'll remind you of this when we lose two games in a row. Oh hang on you normally go on one after we've lost one game. You should adhere to your own advice. Or after first half when it´s 0-0 as he did saturday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 If you offered me a finishing position of 7th, I'd have your arm off. As pointed out above, there are six teams we cannot compete with over 38 games. One or two fans may have to manage their hopes if we slip to somewhere worrying like 10th. Either way we've come a long way from Rochdale in a very short time, mainly thanks to Nige driving us straight through the Championship, and Poch taking us up yet another level. I don't know what the destination is, I'm just enjoying the journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I'll remind you of this when we lose two games in a row. Oh hang on you normally go on one after we've lost one game. You should adhere to your own advice. Alps gets a huge amount of stick for his negativity when things aren't going according to plan. Don't begrudge him his chance to get his own back. Or after first half when it´s 0-0 as he did saturday Ashes anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I would hope the ambition if the club remains as what it truly is; go into every game hoping/trying to win it. Quite why this "Champions League target ambition" needs to be trotted out so often is a bit bemusing to me. Should we aim for the top 4? Of course we should. Is there a need to reinforce that by making so many public statements about it? Not IMO, no. Depends. I'd argue that the constant narrative of breaking into the top four has helped us in the transfer market. That alone has made it worth making those statements for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 No harm in dreaming. It's like when your first two numbers come up in the lottery and you start thinking about how you'll spend the money. Then the third ball comes out and it's back to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Bob Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Pretty much this. Plus Chelsea. Arsenal Chelsea City Man U Tottenham Liverpool... ...are light years ahead in terms of ability and squad depths. IMO realistically we're scrapping it out with Everton, Swansea and probably West Brom and Villa for 7th - 11th. The voice of reason! I'd say you're spot on there. 8th or 9th would be a great place to finish and a positive step forward. All this talk of Champions League in nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 meh if we're gonna get top 4 we may as well go the extra mile + win league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I hope this thread doesn't start doing the rounds, there's dreaming and then there's saying it out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September, 2013 (edited) I hope this thread doesn't start doing the rounds, there's dreaming and then there's saying it out loud. Why? I don't think anyone has has explicitly said 'We're going to finish top 4.' There is a healthy skepticism, it's just a wondering whether it's possible. Edited 30 September, 2013 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 The club need a reality check, we are Southampton, we aim for mid table security then finish somewhere between 12th and 17th and everybody is happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 How you gonna attract top players if the club speaks out that the goal is to consolidate midtable for next 2-3 years? Better show ambition, taking a shot at it and fail than to never try imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 How you gonna attract top players if the club speaks out that the goal is to consolidate midtable for next 2-3 years? Better show ambition, taking a shot at it and fail than to never try imo. Ambition is embarrassing FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Ambition is embarrassing FFS. I know but the trick is to make them think we have it, it´s not about actually having it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 How you gonna attract top players if the club speaks out that the goal is to consolidate midtable for next 2-3 years? Better show ambition, taking a shot at it and fail than to never try imo. Depends which way you look at it, I guess. Aim for 4th and finish 10th? Is that a failure or is the fact that we improved by 4 places seen as a success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Pretty much this. Plus Chelsea. Arsenal Chelsea City Man U Tottenham Liverpool... ...are light years ahead in terms of ability and squad depths. IMO realistically we're scrapping it out with Everton, Swansea and probably West Brom and Villa for 7th - 11th. Arsenal or Tottenham will win the league. With Chelsea/city in 3rd. The mancs are going to take a tumble this season, and frankly, if they keep playing as they are, we will beat them at old trafford... i sense a mini crisis on the horizon for them, or at least the potential for one. People seem to think that liverpool should have beaten us.... yet they have not noticed what MoPo's tactics do to these sides.... We are all fond of saying that "the big boys can't all have a bad day against us".... well they don't.... yes players make a difference, but tactics and team spirit make a massive difference (if they didnt, england would have won a world cup since 1996... W have a very solid first 11... and on our day, we will beat all the top teams (bar maybe tottenham who I can't see us scoring against if they defend.) Liverpool had a handful of chances, and lost that game because of their defensive players failure to use the ball... you can have the best attacking players in the world, but if messi is reduced to feeding of Long balls he is largely neutered... Think of the teams we have outplayed under mopo.... all of them bar the first half of united away.... we have had more possession and more shots than the opposition in all of his games.... and that was last season, we've bought 3 top top players since then and our own players have developed since then as well. We are the only team who play this way... and the only way to counter it is fast counter attack and long balls... We should bloody crucify united the way they are currently playing with our setup.. Chelsea can counter us with hazard, torress, oscar and co on the break. Arsenal have Walcott, gnarby and ox for speed counters. Spurs will be a snore fest with 1 goal in it.... and we know we can beat city... If we keep MoPo and spend wisely in January and the summer we have the potential to be challenging for top 4 next season.... as long as we dodge the injury bracket... I also think that qualifying for the Europa league would be a disaster, not enough money and a thin squad that would have to challenge on two fronts plus the cups... I can't see us pressing like mad on a Thursday then a Sunday. Either way, of all the teams outside the established big 6... we are in the best position to break in, and I predict that man united will be scrapping with us, everton and co for a top 6 position (at which point they will have to spend.) Exciting times (I will now take cover for being a happy clapper!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Text book thread this. Colin you've been here long enough not to expect the usual suspects to be able to read and comprehend a simple opening gambit. The positions that I think we have sufficient quality as starting and cover to compete for a top 4 position are defensive midfield and striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfc1976 Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I'm probably guilty of having a 'dell sized mentality' but am just happy to be 40/1 to be relegated after 6 games in. After the last few years it would be nice to have a little period of 'boring' mid-table stability, and slowly invest sensibly and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 What would we need to do to reach the Champions League? Come fourth in the Premier League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Text book thread this. Colin you've been here long enough not to expect the usual suspects to be able to read and comprehend a simple opening gambit. The positions that I think we have sufficient quality as starting and cover to compete for a top 4 position are defensive midfield and striker. We got there in the end though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 We got there in the end though. Timing is as important as content, and you are way off the mark in that respect on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 30 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 30 September, 2013 (edited) Timing is as important as content, and you are way off the mark in that respect on this issue. Forgot to say thank you for actually reading my content in the end rather then reacting emotionally to a post. I know you hate that, prejudging posts based on preconception. As for the timing, if I was the first to mention the idea then perhaps, certainly wasn't though and as such decided to exercise my freedom of speech and start a topic on it with fellow Saints fans. As it happens people have been actually discussing football and our realistic ambitions for the season on here this morning rather then f**king about over personality disputes for a change. Edited 30 September, 2013 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Troy Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Another way to look at it could be to wonder at what point Spurs became genuine title candidates - if there had been a thread on their forum 3 years ago about that they would've got laughed out of town but have kept investing, worked at the depth of the squad and made one very good purchase that's made em a few million. Do they have a bigger revenue than us, probably but not loads more I would think given stadium sizes. We have a depth in midfield that can see cork, gaston, Jrod, davies come on as replacements and if one of the two main strikers was out we would prob add an attaching midfielder so depth probably ok there. Our back 5 are a godsend at the moment but two injuries and we're well off a top 4 squad really. Of course as the opening poster says its a little bit off reality but theres a progression about us heading that direction like spurs have felt the last few years and as people have pointed out the bigger the players you have the more will come - attacking players will want to play with Osvaldo with Lallana and gaston behind regardless of what we think of them and if we can attract the likes of Lovren were doing well. He shows (along with the likes of Erikson at spurs) that you don't have to go completely crazy to spend well and get a good strong squad. If we invest like we have done in the next three transfer windows and a few more kids come through it will be an interesting squad to say the least and certainly going that direction rather than thinking about avoiding relegation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Spurs became title contenders as much by circumstance than by team / squad improvements. A lot of changes for the top 3 teams of last season, some will work, some wont. Spurs on the whole have invested wisely over the last 2 to 3 years and look very good now to break into the top 4. I would lay them all day to win the league though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 It probably won't last too long, but I am going to enjoy it whilst it does. Love winding up the Man Utd fan I work with. It just feels so sweet after those dark years. Yeah, we shouldn't keep looking back at that, and it's a fair point those who say it - but I can't help but just think wow sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulletsaint Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 (edited) I don't think the OP merited the stick it got from Alps, especially as it in no way states we're ready for a top four finish. As Alps says though it's way to early to judge where we might finish, especially as we haven't met any of the real top teams yet. However what I will say is, I don't think there will be a better season than this, for an interloper to gatecrash the top four. Not saying it'll be us, but it's already looking like an even more tricky league to call than last season. Both Manchester clubs have already lost two matches and no-one's really setting the league alight as yet. While City have by far the best squad, they're currently putting in those inconsistent performances that can come with integrating new faces under a new manager. On top of that many people have the real feeling that Pellegrino's been brought in to concentrate on improving City's performance in the Champion's League. While United have real gaps in the squad, with some of the old faithful getting a bit long in the tooth and Moyes currently struggling to fill SAF's boots. Spurs will be there or there abouts but have to integrate virtually a whole midfield and forward line. Arsenal are doing well, but knowing them will still have the odd flaky moment over the course of the season and Chelsea still haven't clicked fully yet. It'll be tricky for any team to sneak in there, but Newcastle almost did it a couple of seasons back so it's not completely out of the question. Edited 30 September, 2013 by mulletsaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaiSaint Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I'll give you a sensible opinion on this after 30 games and being in the same position, not after 6. Because then it'll be a sensible topic for discussion... So why the hell have you already posted twice in this thread? Congratulations on being the first person I have insulted on this forum you total tosspot. Now go somewhere and get a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I kind of like Arsene Wenger's comments today when asked a similar question about Arsenal's fortunes for the season. Speaking ahead of the Champions League clash with Napoli on Tuesday, Wenger refused to be drawn on his side's chances of being top next May. "We want the right balance between ambition and humility. To speak about the title today is ridiculous," he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 I kind of like Arsene Wenger's comments today when asked a similar question about Arsenal's fortunes for the season. Speaking ahead of the Champions League clash with Napoli on Tuesday, Wenger refused to be drawn on his side's chances of being top next May. "We want the right balance between ambition and humility. To speak about the title today is ridiculous," he said. Indeed. It's also quite interesting that Arsenal are actually three points worse off than they were last season in the corresponding fixtures. You'll probably be unsurprised to know that we're the most-improved team compared to last season's results, having collected 11 points instead of 2 against the same opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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