Clunge Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 All this evidence talk is irrelevant, the club can refuse entry to whoever they want, it's their property, much like you wouldn't let someone in your house if you didn't want them in there. As petty as it is your just have to hope the club let you back in, other then that there is nothing you can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjwills Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 I knew all that except the bit about trains. Does that mean I would be breaking the law if I had a beer on the train to Waterloo and then went to watch Saints at Spurs, but would be OK to down five pints in the Hole in the Wall? As long as I wasn't completely drunk, where's the logic in that? That's why you claim your off to the ballet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 That's why you claim your off to the ballet I don't think it's about drinking beer on the train, well not beer provided on the train anyway. I'm sure it's meant to be taking your own beer and other forms of alcoholic beverage onto special buses and trains destined only for football. Otherwise it's a bit silly really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 that is the attitude. someone doing their job, harming no one deserves to be battered Absolutely, I have no time for jobsworths, all that was needed in this instance is a bit of common sense. The steward involved is obviously a ***t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Seems ridiculous on the face of it, was anyone involved in the horrendous crime of imbibing alcohol being rowdy/aggressive, mirrorcarp? If not, I cant see why you got singled out. And as others have already said, if the stewards didn't confiscate said hip flask just say it wasn't alcohol. In fact, you only have the word of its owner that it was alcohol at all. It may not have been, they would have to contact its owner to confirm it either way, and my guess is that he might suggest it was non-alcoholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel City Saint Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 I think football fans are still being treated like we are in the dark ages. Good article in today's Observer re the return to having safe standing areas. But the powers to be, luddites that they are, still mistakenly believe standing led to the Hillsborough disaster and refuse to even debate it when the majority of premiership clubs welcome the debate. If having a sip out of a flask is a crime worthy of having a ST confiscated then the world is truly bonkers. I hope those with authority at SMS use their common sense, mirrorcarp, a good fan who makes a small mistake over a ridiculous law should not be penalised or treated like a thug. Good Luck All this evidence talk is irrelevant, the club can refuse entry to whoever they want, it's their property, much like you wouldn't let someone in your house if you didn't want them in there. As petty as it is your just have to hope the club let you back in, other then that there is nothing you can do about it. Well, not quite. The season ticket etc means a contract has been created and so there is now a legal basis for the OPs presence at the stadium. If the club now break that contract they have to have good reason and evidence so there is room for a challenge. I would suggest, however, rather than going on the offensive, ask the club for an explanation because you are confused and point out that whilst you may have technically erred, it was accidental and ultimately harmless. Much easier to be hard line with someone being aggressive and asserting their rights than with someone being polite and apologetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 (edited) You might have done nothing that you consider wrong but the owner of the flask has committed a crime, you want your ticket back, name and shame, that's my advice to you. National Legislation The Government has introduced a series of legislative measures to combat hooliganism. The following types of behaviour have been made a criminal offence: Entering a stadium when drunk or in possession of alcohol Possession of a firework, flare or other pyrotechnical device Possession of alcohol on trains and/or coaches when travelling to a football match Throwing any object at or towards the pitch or spectator areas Entering the pitch without lawful excuse Indecent or racist chanting Ticket touting QUOTE. I take it you were not drunk when entering the stadium ?.....or in possession of alcohol? Were you breathalized whilst being detained ? Think those two points need to be clarified first, if so... what is the charge? I doubt if that fellow nearby who owned the flask is likely to come forward though ..... Edited 29 September, 2013 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorcarp Posted 29 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September, 2013 In the latter case the crime would be introducing a glass bottle I think. I don't doubt that there's far more to this case than the OP has exposed though Perhaps someone ratted him out. People do strange things at football if they see someone doing something they disagree with. Mate there is absolutely nothing more to this i can assure you. In fact the irony of it all is this is the first time i have not gone for a half time beer since the stadium opened. I have at least 7 witnesses to exactly what happened. Never ever been in this situation before. I wont lie i will be devastated if it goes badly. However i feel the punishment has already fitted the "crime". Some common sense required here .Fitzhugh Fella i think you have got it about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorcarp Posted 29 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September, 2013 No i did not enter the stadium drunk and No i was not in possession of alcohol at any time. These are facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 There was a piece about this in the echo this morning. Stay safe kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 I suggest you make an appointment to see the head of security and discuss the incident face to face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 I was stood next to an altercation (because someone was sitting in the wrong seats) between some saints fans were someone got a slap yesterday the stewards sorted it out and no one was ejected from the ground on that basis having a swig from an offered flask comes across as well over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 I've read the whole thread and find it hard to understand why if they were watching on CCTV why you were picked out. Surely the evidence was in the possession of the owner of the flask? Have you had any problems with any stewards etc at the ground before and they have been looking for an excuse. Considering the Pompey fan who urinated on the seats never had his ban upheld your minor infringement should be overlooked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorcarp Posted 29 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Incredible isn't it, in my possession for maybe 3 seconds.no body else even spoken to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Incredible isn't it, in my possession for maybe 3 seconds.no body else even spoken to. If the police took your S/T do they keep possession and where is your receipt? It seems like a horrible experience and no fan would feel good. I suspect you feel pretty sick in the stomach today.Especially as everything is closed and you cannot get answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Ok guys something happened to me at yesterdays match and if there is anyone out there who might know what the outcome will be i would be gratefull. I am not dressing anything up and will explain what happened exactly as it was. I am a 45 year old lifelong fan. Season ticket holder of many years and have averaged 6-8 away games most years. At half time yesterday i was stood by my seat with my back to the pitch talking to some people in the row behind me. One of the guys produced a hip flask, i did not even know what was in it. .Several people had a sip and he offered it to me. I took 2 sips and gave it back to him. I never gave it a seconds thought,i did not try to hide it and wasnt even aware that i had done anything wrong. 5 minutes later 3 stewards appeared , singled me out and asked me to come with them. The second half was about to start and i genuinly had no idea why they had come for me. I was led downstairs to the cell area where the police informed me i had been seen drinking in the stadium. They took all my personal details and confiscated my season ticket. I was then ejected from the ground. I asked them what happens now and they said it is now in the hands of the club. I did not bring alcohol into the ground 100% fact. I was not abusive,did not swear, and co operated despite the fact i was seething inside. I was not drunk either. Does anybody out there have any experience of this. Will i get my ticket back. I am absolutely distraught at the moment.The thought of a ban is very upsetting. Ive seen people do a lot worse things at football and i cant think for the life of me why i was pulled and nobody else.The guy who had the flask was fine. If there are any stewards or people linked to the club reading this can you please tell me what my options are. Missing the second half yesyerday was bad enough but if i miss more football after spending £600 i will be livid. Advice please. So what really happened, because that is a very filtered version of events.... You willingly took and drank from a hipflask containing an unknown substance.... Right lol. You knew exactly what it was and that you shouldn't have been drinking it in the stand. The fact that you have blatantly lied to smudge that part of the stroy will do you know favours.... I have sympathy for the way you have been treated and when put in context against other offences and corresponding punishments yours is ludicrous... Hopefully the club will give you the benifit of the doubt. However part of me wonders if this is a falacy and didn't actually happen, that or you are lying because there are a few holes in the tale... Best of luck if the tale is exactly as portrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horley CTFC Saint Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 There was a piece about this in the echo this morning. Stay safe kids. That's a total fabrication I weren't at the game yesterday I was on the train on route to the Royal Ballet and enjoying a pink gin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 If it's all on CCTV, how come the Kingsland Bum Bandit is still at large? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 If it's all on CCTV, how come the Kingsland Bum Bandit is still at large? probably a lot of them, confuses The Bill no end. They're looking for one bloke when there are really probably about 140. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 That's a total fabrication I weren't at the game yesterday I was on the train on route to the Royal Ballet and enjoying a pink gin And how was Turandot ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 A common example of boneheads who know what the rule says but don't understand what it is there to deal with. The rule is there to stop people, especially young blokes, knocking back cans of lager and bottles of spirits all through a match and potentially becoming violent. It isn't to stop any drinking of alcohol as you could take five pints onto the terraces as long as they are in your system. This is Jobsworth gone mad. Sadly, whilst its to be expected that some stewards will be boneheads, its a sad indictment of the police that none of them had the intelligence to tell the stewards to use some common sense. Must hope that there will be some common sense within the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 So what really happened, because that is a very filtered version of events.... You willingly took and drank from a hipflask containing an unknown substance.... Right lol. You knew exactly what it was and that you shouldn't have been drinking it in the stand. The fact that you have blatantly lied to smudge that part of the stroy will do you know favours.... I have sympathy for the way you have been treated and when put in context against other offences and corresponding punishments yours is ludicrous... Hopefully the club will give you the benifit of the doubt. However part of me wonders if this is a falacy and didn't actually happen, that or you are lying because there are a few holes in the tale... Best of luck if the tale is exactly as portrayed. You can prove its a fact can you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWillie Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 If the police took your S/T do they keep possession and where is your receipt? It seems like a horrible experience and no fan would feel good. I suspect you feel pretty sick in the stomach today.Especially as everything is closed and you cannot get answers The police would not have taken the ticket, the stewards would have. Police are only there. to assist stewards who enforce all the ground rules I.e. Ejections are by stewards, telling people to sit down is by stewards and jobsworth 'you've been drinking out of a hip flask' is the job Of stewards. Police are only there if it gets out of order and people chant stuff about boyfriends....! If, by somewhat remote chance the Police did actually take it then you should have been given a receipt. Oh, and they would not have breathalysed you unless you were driving your car around the Northam end..... Best chance I reckon is as someone already has said, approach the club tomorrow calmly and objectively asking for an explanation I you could phone the echo and get a grumpy picture of you on the front although I suppose you won't have your ticket to show....! Good luck against the jobsworth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horley CTFC Saint Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 And how was Turandot ? Philistine - that's opra in'it can't stand those fat f**k uber males Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rshephard3 Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 All I can say is good luck with your ticket/appeal. This is just another example of pathetic jobsworths on a power trip. Other examples of such ridiculousness include bottle tops on bottled drinks (causing every one ending up dribbling down the stands) and forcing seating at the front of the northam/blocks 1 and 2 despite thousands of Saints and away fans standing further back in the stand. It's fine to stumble around having drunk 6 pints in half an hour before kick off then shout agressive abuse whilst spitting over everyone around you and diminishing the enjoyment of those around you. But a sip from a mates hip flask and it's ejection from the ground. It sometimes feels like everyone involved in football is doing their very best to ruin the enjoyment of the very people who make it tick, the fans. As a side note, if a half decent selection of lager at a reasonable pub price and a couple of decent large screens in the concourse were available, maybe people would be more inclined to stick to the petty rules and have a drink there. Instead they begrudgingly see it as a last possible option and know they'll get bummed on price and quality when they get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 The police would not have taken the ticket, the stewards would have. Police are only there. to assist stewards who enforce all the ground rules I.e. Ejections are by stewards, telling people to sit down is by stewards and jobsworth 'you've been drinking out of a hip flask' is the job Of stewards. Police are only there if it gets out of order and people chant stuff about boyfriends....! If, by somewhat remote chance the Police did actually take it then you should have been given a receipt. Oh, and they would not have breathalysed you unless you were driving your car around the Northam end..... Best chance I reckon is as someone already has said, approach the club tomorrow calmly and objectively asking for an explanation I you could phone the echo and get a grumpy picture of you on the front although I suppose you won't have your ticket to show....! Good luck against the jobsworththe OP stated that his details and S/T were confiscated by the police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 just glad that by youth was in the 70's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delboy Dave Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Why would you drink from a hip flask given to you by a stranger without knowing what was in it? The more I think about that the more I get confused. Well random Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorcarp Posted 29 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Why would you drink from a hip flask given to you by a stranger without knowing what was in it? The more I think about that the more I get confused. Well random they are not strangers when you have all been sat in the same seats for ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWillie Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 they are not strangers when you have all been sat in the same seats for ten years. Mirror carp, who actually took your ticket? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Mirror carp, who actually took your ticket? bet he didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorcarp Posted 29 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September, 2013 The police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Why on earth would you accept to drink an completely unknown substance from a stranger Be honest here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 The police then you must be suspected of bringing the flask into the stadium, police deal with crimes, stewards with misdemeanours as far as I can tell.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Why on earth would you accept to drink an completely unknown substance from a stranger Be honest here It's probably a regular occurence, m-c says that these are his regular neighbours so the flask probably gets passed around on a regular basis, stewards might even be on the look out for it and m-c got caught in the 'pass the parcel'. No-one is going to admit to bringing the flask into the stadium because it's a criminal offence so if they saw him with it on the CCTV he's the fall guy this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirrorcarp Posted 29 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 29 September, 2013 right guys I'm going to stop posting.I came on here for some advise and to all of you that offered it I'm grateful. Someone said it seemed a bit random and that's exactly what it was. I truly hope the club have the whole thing on CCTV as it will back up all I have said. Been watching saints since 1977 so let's get me banned and replaced by some glory hunter who will be gone as quick as he came. I'm guilty of naivety that's it.Any one else on hear made the odd mistake. I hope this gets sorted big time , I have spent 10s of thousands on the saints and will continue to do so if allowed. I hope to be there Sunday with you all. Up the saints and goodnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 right guys I'm going to stop posting.I came on here for some advise and to all of you that offered it I'm grateful. Someone said it seemed a bit random and that's exactly what it was. I truly hope the club have the whole thing on CCTV as it will back up all I have said. Been watching saints since 1977 so let's get me banned and replaced by some glory hunter who will be gone as quick as he came. I'm guilty of naivety that's it.Any one else on hear made the odd mistake. I hope this gets sorted big time , I have spent 10s of thousands on the saints and will continue to do so if allowed. I hope to be there Sunday with you all. Up the saints and goodnight. Good luck fella, hopefully sanity will prevail and you'll get your ticket back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybeal Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Contact the club and pay the £10 or whatever it is for a replacement ticket - chances are the old bill haven't done anything with the ticket and it is sat on someones desk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Mirrorcarp, hope this get's resolved, to be honest had never even thought that drinking from a hip flask was not allowed. F me, the gentry do it all the time and they carry and shoot guns whilst doing it. On a more serious note hope the club see sense here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Some lads who sit behind me were knocking back cans of Magners at the West Ham game - they got kicked out and weren't at the Palace game, could be coincidence but then maybe not. I have to say I find the OP's story pretty hard to believe - if you accept a drink from a hip flask (as opposed to a regular flask) then surely the assumption is that it contains booze (I mean, its such a tiny volume what else would you use it for?!). The Stadium rules are pretty clear, no alcohol in the stands so in my mind the OP only has himself to blame. Is it unfortunate in light of other offences which go unpunished? Yes, but the rules are the rules and the OP has broken them. That being said, let's hope the punishment isn't a permanent ban as a lifelong Saint doesn't deserve that. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Some lads who sit behind me were knocking back cans of Magners at the West Ham game - they got kicked out and weren't at the Palace game, could be coincidence but then maybe not. I have to say I find the OP's story pretty hard to believe - if you accept a drink from a hip flask (as opposed to a regular flask) then surely the assumption is that it contains booze (I mean, its such a tiny volume what else would you use it for?!). The Stadium rules are pretty clear, no alcohol in the stands so in my mind the OP only has himself to blame. Is it unfortunate in light of other offences which go unpunished? Yes, but the rules are the rules and the OP has broken them. That being said, let's hope the punishment isn't a permanent ban as a lifelong Saint doesn't deserve that. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Ok, i am well aware this is a public forum and i am well aware the club may read this thread,and that is the point. I am not trying to hide anything because i dont actually think i have done anything wrong. i am not some naughty schoolboy trying to have a crafty smoke behind the bike sheds. I had a sip from a flask that wasnt mine which could of been milk or methadone. i could of gone downstairs 20 yards and power drunk 5 pints of lager and that would have been fine. I did not try to hide anything. CCTV will prove that everything i have said is true. I missed our win yesterday which was upsetting, i dont want to miss any more football. Perhaps the club should have me shot. You might also want to point out the numerous occasions on which they have failed to act on the smokers in the toilets which is equally illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 Oh, and as the offence under the law is, I believe, "drinking alcohol within sight of the pitch" you could always argue that as you were facing the seats behind you you weren't committing an offence. Best check the exact wording of whichever 1980s Act it was, the exact name escapes me for the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 29 September, 2013 Share Posted 29 September, 2013 A mate of mine got caught drinking from his own hip flask during the west game and had the same treatment. He phoned the head of security on the Monday after, explained that he didn't realise that he'd done wrong but acknowledged that he had, apologised for being a bell end, promised to be a good boy and got off with a warning. Personally I'd do exactly the same in your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 right guys I'm going to stop posting.I came on here for some advise and to all of you that offered it I'm grateful. Someone said it seemed a bit random and that's exactly what it was. I truly hope the club have the whole thing on CCTV as it will back up all I have said. Been watching saints since 1977 so let's get me banned and replaced by some glory hunter who will be gone as quick as he came. I'm guilty of naivety that's it.Any one else on hear made the odd mistake. I hope this gets sorted big time , I have spent 10s of thousands on the saints and will continue to do so if allowed. I hope to be there Sunday with you all. Up the saints and goodnight. All those years watching Saints, and you've never seen any signs etc saying that its illegal to drink within sight of the pitch....schoolboy error! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 Oh, and as the offence under the law is, I believe, "drinking alcohol within sight of the pitch" you could always argue that as you were facing the seats behind you you weren't committing an offence. Best check the exact wording of whichever 1980s Act it was, the exact name escapes me for the moment. I wouldn't try to be too clever, they could turn around and say "Yes, but the pitch could see you" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 All those years watching Saints, and you've never seen any signs etc saying that its illegal to drink within sight of the pitch....schoolboy error! Is there not a bit of bumff sent out with the STs stating precisely the conditions attached to said ST ? I'm sure that the club does not neglect to make known the law concerning football attendance. It's just a case of people blatantly ignoring the rules and regulations and then *****ing when they get caught, it's one of mankind's favourite pastimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 yeah I'm the same as the op, i just ignore laws if I think they're dumb laws, like speed limits + getting bj in public toilets. I would deffo be up for getting smashed in the kingsland like the op done with his mates. He is hero! It is only by people breaking dumb laws that Tony Blair will learn which laws are dumb. I reckon everyone should take hip-flasks to next game in show of solidarity. They can't eject whole crowd yo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 This does seem OTT - as another poster said, my understanding was that the regulations was mainly to deal with misbehaviour fuelled by bringing their booze in (in the early and mid-1980s some grounds had 'Social Sides' with a bar area pretty much pitchside and the legislation banned this post-Millwall riot at Luton). A friend had HIS hip-flask poured away in the 2004-5 season by an over-zealous steward on a freezing day but it was returned to him afterwards and there was no discussion of a ban. I think in the circumstances that a warning would have been sufficient. It's not like Wimbledon away in 1998 or so when a large group of lads smuggled a crate of Stella - I don't know how - and were knocking it back and well up for trouble before the Met stopped their fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 30 September, 2013 Share Posted 30 September, 2013 yeah I'm the same as the op, i just ignore laws if I think they're dumb laws, like speed limits + getting bj in public toilets. I would deffo be up for getting smashed in the kingsland like the op done with his mates. He is hero! It is only by people breaking dumb laws that Tony Blair will learn which laws are dumb. I reckon everyone should take hip-flasks to next game in show of solidarity. They can't eject whole crowd yo! Tony Blair ? I think he got the boot basically because he couldn't recognise a dumb law, a dodgy intelligence report or an idiot Chancellor of the Exchequer when he saw one so I doubt that he'll ever learn now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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