Gaston

[tajjuk]

I´ll answer here instead of to the long post....

 

No I didn´t watch the game, and my reaction isn´t about a single game or even a big amount of games.

It´s more about the type of comments that are made about Gaston but almost never about any other player in the same regards. Like the ones that he loses all of his 50/50 tackles, he gives away the ball to easy etc etc. I´m not saying those things dont happen, though I dont see him losing ALL 50/50 and when players (not just regarding Gaston) seems to "give away" the balls it´s just as often lack of options from his teammates as it´s the players own fault IMO.

 

And as you say, we had probably one of the biggest and laziest "flair player" of all times, and because of that I would have thought that people understood the concept, but still all these comments are out on the forum after practically every game.

 

What I am talking about is that with a flair player you are looking for that one or two magic moments that results in goals. Pretty much like a striker that goes missing for 89 minutes and then scores a winner and everybody is happy with his contribution.

 

But I also understand that people look and compare him to, let´s say, Steven Davis that plays in a similar position and is very good at retaining and keeping the ball but imo they are completely different type of players even if they play in the same position. Davis isn´t as much of a creative threat for the opponents imo but is extremely useful in retaining the ball, passing it around etc while Gaston is the opposite and always look for that magic pass. Rightly he needs to learn to know when it´s there or when the easy option should be used but I will always give a player the benefit of a doubt when I see that the player is looking and wanting to create things.

 

Imo we can afford a flair player behind the striker and to break the bus parking teams I think we need just that and I personally prefer a AM/ST combination rather than playing two strikers, at the moment.

 

Was my comment a cheap put down....I can understand that view now even if it wasn´t intential at all. My apologies if someone was offended...

 

 

 

You aren't going to change their minds, certain people on this forum have agendas and at the moment Gaston is about all they have to further those agendas. The fact that again he has his own thread highlights it.

 

The 'special' level of criticism he gets on these forums is staggering. Coutinho for Liverpool does similar negative things that Gaston does, but he contributes goals and assists that turn games, Gaston did the same for us last year but people expect far too much.

 

You only have to see after the guy wins the game with positive reports form the coaching staff and the media, yet you still get overly negative opinions from people on here.

[Saint Charlie]

Like who?

 

Schneiderlin?

Shaw who struggles to complete a game without coming off?

Lallana?

 

In any case, the key for me with Ramirez is confidence. He has mentioned it himself on his OS interview this afternoon.

 

When he first came here he looked so classy and was confident to try things and most were coming off.

Edited 25 September, 2013 by Saint Charlie

[Sour Mash]

Schneiderlin?

Shaw who struggles to complete a game without coming off?

Lallana?

I think most would be more than happy with Schneiderlin's performances across his time in the Prem if he'd been signed for £12m in the summer of 2012. Shaw has been consistently excellent for the same period, would probably get a bit of stick for being a bit injury prone, but has still managed far more football for us than Ramirez and is 4 years younger than Ramirez. Lallana gets plenty of stick on here for his performances and he was a "free" through the academy. Edited 25 September, 2013 by Sour Mash

[Olallana]

So basically Jessie J was right.....it´s all about the price tag....

 

Who would´ve known...

 

 

And just for fun, I dont know the figures at all on this question but maybe someone does?

When we paid £1m for Rickie in 2009, how large chunk was that of our turnover that year compared how large chunk £12m for Gaston was of our turnover last year?? (Maybe those aren´t revealed yet though....)

 

 

I think people need to get this perspective on things cause I heard a few weeks ago that Shearer in that regard was more expensive when he signed for Newcastle from Blackburn than Bale was for Real Madrid if you look at the fee divided with the club s turnover...

(oh my english stinks, sorry guys and gals)

Edited 25 September, 2013 by Olallana

[Dig Dig]

I think most would be more than happy with Schneiderlin's performances across his time in the Prem if he'd been signed for £12m in the summer of 2012. Shaw has been consistently excellent for the same period, would probably get a bit of stick for being a bit injury prone, but has still managed far more football for us than Ramirez and is 4 years younger than Ramirez. Lallana gets plenty of stick on here for his performances and he was a "free" through the academy.

 

Point is that they don't all pull up tree's every week and people have seen enough to let the bad games and bad patches of form slide. IMO, I've seen enough games to know what he can do when fit, on form and playing, just a case of getting to that point whatever the reason.

 

A 12M player is somewhat below the "world class" standard of 20M+ players and sometimes if feels like he is judged on those standards.

[Sheaf Saint]

You aren't going to change their minds, certain people on this forum have agendas and at the moment Gaston is about all they have to further those agendas. The fact that again he has his own thread highlights it.

 

Absolute BS. There is no agenda - it's all about people voicing (or typing, in this case) their opinions based on their own observations, nothing more sinister than that.

 

The reason that Gaston generates a lot of discussion is because we smashed our transfer record to sign him, so it stands to reason that the fans will have certain expectations from him. This thread, and many others before it, show that many fans have genuine concerns as to whether or not those expectations have been met, or ever will be.

 

Quite simply, for a signing that generated as much hyped and excitement as it did, nobody can deny that he has - so far - underperformed. I have been openly critical of him, as is my right. That is, after all, what a forum is all about: to discuss opinions. Personally I think he doesn't have the right mindset to play in the PL. He expects to be able to waltz through defences as he did in Italy. When I watched him at Barnsley he looked as though he was constantly expecting to get fouled when he was in possession and as such he waited for it to happen, rather than actually try and do something useful with it.

 

There's no agenda from me or anybody else that I can see. I'm just being honest about my own opinions and calling it how I see it.

[Sour Mash]

Point is that they don't all pull up tree's every week and people have seen enough to let the bad games and bad patches of form slide. IMO, I've seen enough games to know what he can do when fit, on form and playing, just a case of getting to that point whatever the reason.

 

A 12M player is somewhat below the "world class" standard of 20M+ players and sometimes if feels like he is judged on those standards.

We've all seen his ability, that is the frustrating thing, the point is he hasn't been "on form and playing" enough.

[The Kraken]

Absolute BS. There is no agenda - it's all about people voicing (or typing, in this case) their opinions based on their own observations, nothing more sinister than that.

 

The reason that Gaston generates a lot of discussion is because we smashed our transfer record to sign him, so it stands to reason that the fans will have certain expectations from him. This thread, and many others before it, show that many fans have genuine concerns as to whether or not those expectations have been met, or ever will be.

 

Quite simply, for a signing that generated as much hyped and excitement as it did, nobody can deny that he has - so far - underperformed. I have been openly critical of him, as is my right. That is, after all, what a forum is all about: to discuss opinions. Personally I think he doesn't have the right mindset to play in the PL. He expects to be able to waltz through defences as he did in Italy. When I watched him at Barnsley he looked as though he was constantly expecting to get fouled when he was in possession and as such he waited for it to happen, rather than actually try and do something useful with it.

 

There's no agenda from me or anybody else that I can see. I'm just being honest about my own opinions and calling it how I see it.

Well said. The only people that think there is an agenda against Gaston (other than from Barry Sanchez who is clearly a loony in any case) are from those who are too precious to accept that others hold a different opinion to them while still wanting the best from the club and its players.

[Waterside.saint]

Lets have him change his name by deed poll to 'Gaston Le Tissier' then we'll all know where we stand

[captainchris]

Absolute BS. There is no agenda - it's all about people voicing (or typing, in this case) their opinions based on their own observations, nothing more sinister than that.

 

The reason that Gaston generates a lot of discussion is because we smashed our transfer record to sign him, so it stands to reason that the fans will have certain expectations from him. This thread, and many others before it, show that many fans have genuine concerns as to whether or not those expectations have been met, or ever will be.

 

Quite simply, for a signing that generated as much hyped and excitement as it did, nobody can deny that he has - so far - underperformed. I have been openly critical of him, as is my right. That is, after all, what a forum is all about: to discuss opinions. Personally I think he doesn't have the right mindset to play in the PL. He expects to be able to waltz through defences as he did in Italy. When I watched him at Barnsley he looked as though he was constantly expecting to get fouled when he was in possession and as such he waited for it to happen, rather than actually try and do something useful with it.

 

There's no agenda from me or anybody else that I can see. I'm just being honest about my own opinions and calling it how I see it.

Well said. I find it peculiar that people expect to go in a football forum and read no opinions. Very odd.... There are lots of happy clappies on here who seem shocked whenever a player receives even the slightest critism....hello it's a forum - you get both sides of the story here .....

[hutch]

An opinion is something you post on an internet forum so other people can read it. An agenda is something you post on an internet forum over and over and over and over again every time somebody has the audacity to disagree with it.

 

Al in my opinion of course.

[Toadhall Saint]

Were you actually at the game? Honest question.

 

IMO he had two sublime moments. One, the goal, absolutely thumped it home, a great finish. Another one in the first half where he lofted the ball over the defence for Lee, who really should have scored.

 

Other than that, Gaston was massively frustrating. Poor control far too often, very poor passes far too often, not able to hold on to the ball, and far far too wasteful for a team that prides itself on keeping posession. Steven Davis was much more effective as a midfielder looking to pull the strings that Ramirez was.

 

One thing I won't criticise though was his level of effort. i thought he kept going, and kept trying right up to the point where he walked off injured with seconds to go. It just really didn't work out for him. Extremely sloppy is the best way that I would describe his performance, punctuated by a couple of instances of absolute brilliance.

 

Exactly this!

[NickG]

I don't disagree that Ramirez is a good option for unlocking teams that get men behind the ball and are hard to break down at our place, but does MP trust him? 20mins of game time across the Sunderland and West Ham game suggests maybe not?

 

But is that trusting him more than Cork? More our depth in midfield. I agree if he continues to miss out its not working out.

 

He does worry other teams - would have liked to have seen him against west ham.

 

Decent scoring / assist rate but also gets a lot of free kicks in Lambert range.

[Sour Mash]

But is that trusting him more than Cork? More our depth in midfield. I agree if he continues to miss out its not working out.

 

He does worry other teams - would have liked to have seen him against west ham.

 

Decent scoring / assist rate but also gets a lot of free kicks in Lambert range.

Don't understand the post, references to Cork and Lambert bits?

[Barry Sanchez]

You aren't going to change their minds, certain people on this forum have agendas and at the moment Gaston is about all they have to further those agendas. The fact that again he has his own thread highlights it.

 

The 'special' level of criticism he gets on these forums is staggering. Coutinho for Liverpool does similar negative things that Gaston does, but he contributes goals and assists that turn games, Gaston did the same for us last year but people expect far too much.

 

You only have to see after the guy wins the game with positive reports form the coaching staff and the media, yet you still get overly negative opinions from people on here.

Coutinho has been a huge success since he moved to Liverpool, Ramirez has not since he has been at Southampton, they are the facts.

[Olallana]

Coutinho has been a huge success since he moved to Liverpool, Ramirez has not since he has been at Southampton, they are the facts.

 

In a better teams with better players coming in when the team is on the up rather than coming into a struggling newcomer...

[The Kraken]

In a better teams with better players coming in when the team is on the up rather than coming into a struggling newcomer...

What's your opinion were you to judge on just the here and now, and not last year? Right now we're a top ten side at the moment, very much a team on the up.

[Olallana]

What's your opinion were you to judge on just the here and now, and not last year? Right now we're a top ten side at the moment, very much a team on the up.

 

You mean compared to Liverpool?

 

Or judge Gaston right now?

[The Kraken]

You mean compared to Liverpool?

 

Or judge Gaston right now?

Judging Gaston right now. I take your point about coming in to a struggling team etc last season; but we're not that team right now. In fact, far from it.

[Olallana]

Judging Gaston right now. I take your point about coming in to a struggling team etc last season; but we're not that team right now. In fact, far from it.

 

Really not much to judge on so far IMO. MP said already in Austria in preseason that Gaston (and Maya) would need a month extra before they would be back in normal contention for the team.

 

But this year I have higher demands (or what you wanna call it) on Gaston.

I wrote about every player before the season in a document, but missed to put it on the forum in a thread, what my expextations were from every single player. On Gaston I wrote that I want him more involved and find a higher sustainable level but that his type of player will always have his ups and downs from one game to another. I also thought he should be close to collecting 15 "points" (goals + assists combined).

 

But so far nothing to judge so I will wait until at least christmas to do that probably.

Why I like some players and have extra patience with them is all about their shown potential and IMO noone in our team is close to his highest potential. He still has things to learn to fulfill that for sure but so far I have no reason to lose patience about him....

 

But as always, that´s an opinion....

[The Kraken]

But so far nothing to judge so I will wait until at least christmas to do that probably.

Why I like some players and have extra patience with them is all about their shown potential and IMO noone in our team is close to his highest potential. He still has things to learn to fulfill that for sure but so far I have no reason to lose patience about him....

 

But as always, that´s an opinion....

We all have opinions, and pretty much none are right or wrong, just different ways of thinking (despite what the agenda accusers continue to peddle).

 

I don't think I've lost patience with Ramirez, he obviously has talent and the ability for something out of the ordinary. Unfortunately I feel (especially after watching last night) that he's a level below our first team at the moment, and doesn't play the same way as the rest of the team. The biggest problem is that I don't see where we fit him in, Osvaldo seems to have pushed him further down the order. It's a conundrum. Given that MP didn't sign him, and given that Gaston has played a limited amount so far, I'm interested to watch how much MP will play him over the next month or two. If its not much then a switch isn't out of the question IMO. Right now I don't get the opinion that he's an MP type of player.

[Upton72]

I've always preferred the talented to the "water carriers" so my bias is there for all to see.

Look, he got his first 90 minutes in a long time and he provided the only quality moment of a tie that, and, 2nd half, Bristol could easily have won.

He is also the only attacking midfield player prepared to run at defences through the middle. OK, he loses the ball quite often but, come Saturday and Palace "park the bus", he's the only player we've got who can, potentially, unlock a defence.

Others have pointed out that "he's only 22". I think that's irrelevant.

What's more important in my mind is, he's in a foreign land, (don't say he's played in Italy and that's foreign because players from Latin America feel a geater affinity with Mediterranean countries, less so to England), he's got different pressures, language, culture and those can contribute to a lack of confidence which he alluded to in his Twitter messages. Those 8000 Saints Supporters who were there last night will have seen have much that goal meant to him, even if it was in an empty stadium and the Capital One Cup.

He won't play every match and I believe he'll be better at home than away for all the reasons cited in earlier posts, but, I'd like to think he'll come good.

[captainchris]

An opinion is something you post on an internet forum so other people can read it. An agenda is something you post on an internet forum over and over and over and over again every time somebody has the audacity to disagree with it.

 

Al in my opinion of course.

An agenda is when you object to those with an opinion having the right to it if it doesn't fit with your 'agenda'

[Dig Dig]

An agenda is when you object to those with an opinion having the right to it if it doesn't fit with your 'agenda'

 

That doesn't make any sense.

[Sour Mash]

I've always preferred the talented to the "water carriers" so my bias is there for all to see.

Look, he got his first 90 minutes in a long time and he provided the only quality moment of a tie that, and, 2nd half, Bristol could easily have won.

He is also the only attacking midfield player prepared to run at defences through the middle.

He played 90 mins up at Barnsley a couple of weeks ago. Rodriguez also runs at defences through the middle and Harrison Reed didn't make a bad job of doing so either.

[Whitey Grandad]

Does anyone know who he was waving to in the upper north Itchen at the start of the game and when he scored?

[The Kraken]

Does anyone know who he was waving to in the upper north Itchen at the start of the game and when he scored?

Barry Sanchez.

[Whitey Grandad]

Barry Sanchez.

 

Must be, he looked like he was in love.

[NZ saint]

I've always preferred the talented to the "water carriers" so my bias is there for all to see.

Look, he got his first 90 minutes in a long time and he provided the only quality moment of a tie that, and, 2nd half, Bristol could easily have won.

He is also the only attacking midfield player prepared to run at defences through the middle. OK, he loses the ball quite often but, come Saturday and Palace "park the bus", he's the only player we've got who can, potentially, unlock a defence.

Others have pointed out that "he's only 22". I think that's irrelevant.

What's more important in my mind is, he's in a foreign land, (don't say he's played in Italy and that's foreign because players from Latin America feel a geater affinity with Mediterranean countries, less so to England), he's got different pressures, language, culture and those can contribute to a lack of confidence which he alluded to in his Twitter messages. Those 8000 Saints Supporters who were there last night will have seen have much that goal meant to him, even if it was in an empty stadium and the Capital One Cup.

He won't play every match and I believe he'll be better at home than away for all the reasons cited in earlier posts, but, I'd like to think he'll come good.

 

This