Gaston

[Sour Mash]

Ah, almost Olallana! I see you're going for the much adopted put down of compartmentalising "Gaston bashers" into the supposed mindset of only rating footballers who run around a lot.

 

The truth is that Saints fans will have a better grasp than most of the virtues and downfalls of a flair player. One of the greatest flair players of all time kept us in this division for years surrounded by a bunch of workmanlike artisans. We all know how lazy MLT was, and how he was prone to be sometimes wasteful. We already have a brilliant benchmark for a flair player; so this entire logic of yours is a bit flawed in this instance I'm afraid.

 

In fact, the concept of a flair player in the modern game is also pretty much adequately defined in Adam Lallana. A player who rightly attracted some criticism for being too wasteful and non-productive but who seems to have really stepped up his game this season and is looking creative and productive all at the same time.

 

Did you watch the game last night, by the way? If so, I'd be genuinely interested to hear from those with an alternative viewpoint as to why Gaston's performance should guarantee him a place on Saturday? Personally I don't think it did, as the brilliant things he did were too overshadowed by the regularity of bad things he did (which against a better opposition could have been exploited much more).

Going on this thread everyone that was at last night's game has the same view on his performance. Frustrating and not any closer to getting heavily involved in league games.

[Stepgar]

I think a tiny bit of perspective is needed here. We played a cup tie where anything can happen. We played possibly our bogey team of the past few years in Bristol City who would have fancied their chances. For them it would have been a cup final and they would have been right up for it. Now for the record I couldn't go but I would like to see GR against a team that would have given us a bit of space as I think that is what suits him best. IMHO

[The Kraken]

Going on this thread everyone that was at last night's game has the same view on his performance. Frustrating and not any closer to getting heavily involved in league games.

 

That's what I figured. I gues Olallana just reacted and went for the cheap and easy put down.

[Sour Mash]

I think a tiny bit of perspective is needed here. We played a cup tie where anything can happen. We played possibly our bogey team of the past few years in Bristol City who would have fancied their chances. For them it would have been a cup final and they would have been right up for it. Now for the record I couldn't go but I would like to see GR against a team that would have given us a bit of space as I think that is what suits him best. IMHO

Good point, unfair judging him against a team of the quality of Bristol City. Barnsley gave us loads of room in the previous round, Ramirez played quite well in that game without being outstanding.

[Greenridge]

Gaston - an enigma.

 

Isn't he just. I've been a huge supporter of his but he's not a the point I would have thought he would have reached tbh.

[Whitey Grandad]

Well worth a place on the bench on Saturday but clearly not up to full speed and fitness. Last night's game will have helped with that.

[dinger]

Were you actually at the game? Honest question.

 

IMO he had two sublime moments. One, the goal, absolutely thumped it home, a great finish. Another one in the first half where he lofted the ball over the defence for Lee, who really should have scored.

 

Other than that, Gaston was massively frustrating. Poor control far too often, very poor passes far too often, not able to hold on to the ball, and far far too wasteful for a team that prides itself on keeping posession. Steven Davis was much more effective as a midfielder looking to pull the strings that Ramirez was.

 

One thing I won't criticise though was his level of effort. i thought he kept going, and kept trying right up to the point where he walked off injured with seconds to go. It just really didn't work out for him. Extremely sloppy is the best way that I would describe his performance, punctuated by a couple of instances of absolute brilliance.

 

Yup, I agree with all of this. Sometimes I wonder if he's a better player when he's working on instinct than when he's got time to think. His little flicked passes, first time balls, that gorgeous goal last night, all wonderful. But give him the ball and a yard of grass and he seems to be overwhelmed by the options, and his decision making goes to pieces. I think that will come good though, he's very obviously got the talent and the time to develop it. We should stick with him.

 

Was it his excellent ball through for Guly's scuffed shot as well, or am I misremembering that?

[Olallana]

That's what I figured. I gues Olallana just reacted and went for the cheap and easy put down.

 

I´ll answer here instead of to the long post....

 

No I didn´t watch the game, and my reaction isn´t about a single game or even a big amount of games.

It´s more about the type of comments that are made about Gaston but almost never about any other player in the same regards. Like the ones that he loses all of his 50/50 tackles, he gives away the ball to easy etc etc. I´m not saying those things dont happen, though I dont see him losing ALL 50/50 and when players (not just regarding Gaston) seems to "give away" the balls it´s just as often lack of options from his teammates as it´s the players own fault IMO.

 

And as you say, we had probably one of the biggest and laziest "flair player" of all times, and because of that I would have thought that people understood the concept, but still all these comments are out on the forum after practically every game.

 

What I am talking about is that with a flair player you are looking for that one or two magic moments that results in goals. Pretty much like a striker that goes missing for 89 minutes and then scores a winner and everybody is happy with his contribution.

 

But I also understand that people look and compare him to, let´s say, Steven Davis that plays in a similar position and is very good at retaining and keeping the ball but imo they are completely different type of players even if they play in the same position. Davis isn´t as much of a creative threat for the opponents imo but is extremely useful in retaining the ball, passing it around etc while Gaston is the opposite and always look for that magic pass. Rightly he needs to learn to know when it´s there or when the easy option should be used but I will always give a player the benefit of a doubt when I see that the player is looking and wanting to create things.

 

Imo we can afford a flair player behind the striker and to break the bus parking teams I think we need just that and I personally prefer a AM/ST combination rather than playing two strikers, at the moment.

 

Was my comment a cheap put down....I can understand that view now even if it wasn´t intential at all. My apologies if someone was offended...

[eurosaint]

I´ll answer here instead of to the long post....

 

No I didn´t watch the game, and my reaction isn´t about a single game or even a big amount of games.

It´s more about the type of comments that are made about Gaston but almost never about any other player in the same regards. Like the ones that he loses all of his 50/50 tackles, he gives away the ball to easy etc etc. I´m not saying those things dont happen, though I dont see him losing ALL 50/50 and when players (not just regarding Gaston) seems to "give away" the balls it´s just as often lack of options from his teammates as it´s the players own fault IMO.

 

And as you say, we had probably one of the biggest and laziest "flair player" of all times, and because of that I would have thought that people understood the concept, but still all these comments are out on the forum after practically every game.

 

What I am talking about is that with a flair player you are looking for that one or two magic moments that results in goals. Pretty much like a striker that goes missing for 89 minutes and then scores a winner and everybody is happy with his contribution.

 

But I also understand that people look and compare him to, let´s say, Steven Davis that plays in a similar position and is very good at retaining and keeping the ball but imo they are completely different type of players even if they play in the same position. Davis isn´t as much of a creative threat for the opponents imo but is extremely useful in retaining the ball, passing it around etc while Gaston is the opposite and always look for that magic pass. Rightly he needs to learn to know when it´s there or when the easy option should be used but I will always give a player the benefit of a doubt when I see that the player is looking and wanting to create things.

 

Imo we can afford a flair player behind the striker and to break the bus parking teams I think we need just that and I personally prefer a AM/ST combination rather than playing two strikers, at the moment.

 

Was my comment a cheap put down....I can understand that view now even if it wasn´t intential at all. My apologies if someone was offended...

 

You make some good points here and as we all now know Gaston is an enigma !

Fact is from last night's match, he won it for us with a sublime finish which probably nobody else on the pitch could have done !

Sure he is incredibly frustrating but he can also be the difference between winning or losing !!

[Turkish]

It seems to me the ones that seem to be maintaining he's brilliant are the ones that dont go to games very often.

Edited 25 September, 2013 by Turkish

[alpine_saint]

Hes neither the player we expected or needed..

[hypochondriac]

If we are honest Gaston has been a disappointment who has failed to live up to the reasonable expectations placed on him. He still has time to improve but at the moment he may have the odd decent game but has not shown he can do it consistently.

[The Kraken]

I´ll answer here instead of to the long post....

 

No I didn´t watch the game, and my reaction isn´t about a single game or even a big amount of games.

It´s more about the type of comments that are made about Gaston but almost never about any other player in the same regards. Like the ones that he loses all of his 50/50 tackles, he gives away the ball to easy etc etc. I´m not saying those things dont happen, though I dont see him losing ALL 50/50 and when players (not just regarding Gaston) seems to "give away" the balls it´s just as often lack of options from his teammates as it´s the players own fault IMO.

 

And as you say, we had probably one of the biggest and laziest "flair player" of all times, and because of that I would have thought that people understood the concept, but still all these comments are out on the forum after practically every game.

 

What I am talking about is that with a flair player you are looking for that one or two magic moments that results in goals. Pretty much like a striker that goes missing for 89 minutes and then scores a winner and everybody is happy with his contribution.

 

But I also understand that people look and compare him to, let´s say, Steven Davis that plays in a similar position and is very good at retaining and keeping the ball but imo they are completely different type of players even if they play in the same position. Davis isn´t as much of a creative threat for the opponents imo but is extremely useful in retaining the ball, passing it around etc while Gaston is the opposite and always look for that magic pass. Rightly he needs to learn to know when it´s there or when the easy option should be used but I will always give a player the benefit of a doubt when I see that the player is looking and wanting to create things.

 

Imo we can afford a flair player behind the striker and to break the bus parking teams I think we need just that and I personally prefer a AM/ST combination rather than playing two strikers, at the moment.

 

Was my comment a cheap put down....I can understand that view now even if it wasn´t intential at all. My apologies if someone was offended...

 

Fair points, and no offence taken in the slightest, but I feel you've fallen into the trap of seeing things a bit too black and white. Its not a question of either being a flair player or not. Steven Davis last night did all the things you suggested in terms of ball retention; but he was also creative and inventive too. One little pass in the second half that allowed Harrison Reed to charge into the box with the ball came from Davis, who ran 10 or 20 yards into space, controlled the ball and on the turn played the ball through two defenders to put Reed into acres of space to bear down on goal. So its possible to do both.

 

You make the analogy of the striker who does b*gger all else for 89 minutes other than score. And that's basically the nub of it. As a fan, do you choose to put up with all of the deficiencies of Gaston, all the times he gives the ball away in dangerous positions, while knowing that there's a chance he might create something from nothing? Or would you rather see someone like Steven Davis who can do a bit of both, albeit while perhaps not being capable/willing to try some of the more audacious things that Ramirez is? It's a choice, and there's no right answer, just opinions. Mine is that Gaston doesn't produce the audacious stuff often enough compared to the amount of times he does the poor stuff. That, and he's still got an awful lot to learn about when its actually time to just pass a simple ball rather than hold onto it too long and get disposessed needlessly.

 

All I know isn't is a comparison between either playing Terry Hurlock or Matt Le Tissier, which I feel some try to pigeonhole it into. We can still be a team that plays with flair without Ramirez in the side.

[JRM]

Were you actually at the game? Honest question.

 

IMO he had two sublime moments. One, the goal, absolutely thumped it home, a great finish. Another one in the first half where he lofted the ball over the defence for Lee, who really should have scored.

 

Other than that, Gaston was massively frustrating. Poor control far too often, very poor passes far too often, not able to hold on to the ball, and far far too wasteful for a team that prides itself on keeping posession. Steven Davis was much more effective as a midfielder looking to pull the strings that Ramirez was.

 

One thing I won't criticise though was his level of effort. i thought he kept going, and kept trying right up to the point where he walked off injured with seconds to go. It just really didn't work out for him. Extremely sloppy is the best way that I would describe his performance, punctuated by a couple of instances of absolute brilliance.

 

this sums it up for me, completely agree, i had a good seat up in the Itchen centre and followed the movement, he has got a good football brain but is so frustrating and wasteful on the ball. No where near a £12M player yet.

[Patrick Bateman]

Ducked out of every tackle, lost the ball easily in dangerous positions,did some good things,scored a great goal .

 

If it hasn't been said already ... wasn't this similar to a certain Le Tissier!?

[SaintSteve]

In fact, the concept of a flair player in the modern game is also pretty much adequately defined in Adam Lallana. A player who rightly attracted some criticism for being too wasteful and non-productive but who seems to have really stepped up his game this season and is looking creative and productive all at the same time.

 

Sorry, but Ramirez has a killer pass and can score goals; neither of which Lallana is showing any signs of doing.

[Saint Charlie]

Two starts, two goals this season. Plus a ratio of 1 in 4 last season - not bad for a midfield player.

[Sour Mash]

If it hasn't been said already ... wasn't this similar to a certain Le Tissier!?

He's nowhere near Le Tissier's level. Le Tissier never gave the ball away so often and so easily.

[Tom & Gerry]

I thought nearly all our team blew hot and cold and rustiness and lack of match sharpness nearly told in the second half. For what it is worth I'm in the camp that will forgive a lot from the Gaston's of this world because of the things they can do that other players can't. I like watching him but probably wouldn't play him on Saturday.

[sentry]

He still doesn't look like a £12m player.

 

Although I generally agree, what does a 12 mil player look like now a days. Generally speaking you need to spend 10mil or over to get a decent signing, even from outside the prem. If they are prem based add on a couple of mil to their price and if they are young add on a couple of mil too. Take Jay Rod, prob worth 4-5 but he was young when we signed him so add on 2mil and british usually means another mil at least.

Matt Jarvis was about 12ish I think, Everton just paid 15 mil for McCarthy.

[Jonnyboy]

I'll be amazed if we make our money back when he leaves Saints.

[RedArmy]

I've never been his biggest fan, but now the back 5 is a lot more solid, surely now is the best time to give him another run in the first team. Providing he's fit enough.

 

He might give the ball away more often that not, but if he scores a goal then he's done his job. I would argue that he would probably add more to the team than lambert is currently.

 

The defence look more than capable of dealing with teams when our passing isn't up to scratch Wanyama gives the ball away a fair bit too, and from worse positions, and we haven't been leaking goals.

 

As far as ducking out of 50/50's he's not the worst player in the team for that, Lallana always has been IMO.

 

I think he also needs to be told that he doesn't have to be a world beater every time he touches the ball.

[Colinjb]

I still rate him as someone who has a role to play but he is always going to be frustrating and look disinterested at times, yet he always has the potential to create a game changing moment. He played a key role last year including his part in the win v Newcastle and his goals securing points v Arsenal and West Ham, while not as consistent as others without him we would have been far closer to the drop zone.

 

Was 12 million too much? Probably. Yet there is no point casting a player who is still young and with his natural ability aside. Sadly he is at the catch 22 of needing game time to improve and having players who are performing better currently ahead of him.

Edited 25 September, 2013 by Colinjb

[Giordano]

I did'nt see anyone else scoring a volley into the top left hand corner last night to put us 1-0 up and pretty much settle us down into a predictable victory albeit with scares. That is what a fuori-classe player can do. That is what he is meant to do more of.

 

It is not, for me anyway, a question of ability, it is, for me again, a question of his application of that ability in our team to date. Its an oxymoronic thing to say but if he could get more consistency with his occasional moments of magic that is what we want. His gestation period is longer than I expected but I am still patient. He is young. His job is not just to bulldozer someone and then pass it to someone else. He is the "someone else" and so far when he's been given the ball he has not delivered enough of what we expected to see from his Seria A days.

 

I think that the large increase in both speed and physicality in the EPL has really caught him out. If he can play like he played in Italy he is worth every penny and more. But so far i'd say that he has not justified his £12m price tag, BUT that is true of the majority of the young high (over?) priced players i reckon...for every Coutihno there is a Carroll....

[Hamilton Saint]

Hes neither the player we expected or needed..

 

either/or

 

neither/nor

 

he's

[Graffito]

Jesus says GR hasn't been fit enough for the first team, or words to that effect. I've no doubt they know excatly what his fitness levels are and lack of fitness could well be why he blows hot and cold. Bit odd though considering he's been with Saints for quite a while now.

[The9]

Were you actually at the game? Honest question.

 

IMO he had two sublime moments. One, the goal, absolutely thumped it home, a great finish. Another one in the first half where he lofted the ball over the defence for Lee, who really should have scored.

 

Other than that, Gaston was massively frustrating. Poor control far too often, very poor passes far too often, not able to hold on to the ball, and far far too wasteful for a team that prides itself on keeping posession. Steven Davis was much more effective as a midfielder looking to pull the strings that Ramirez was.

 

One thing I won't criticise though was his level of effort. i thought he kept going, and kept trying right up to the point where he walked off injured with seconds to go. It just really didn't work out for him. Extremely sloppy is the best way that I would describe his performance, punctuated by a couple of instances of absolute brilliance.

 

Pretty much spot on. I've given up thinking he's on a different plane to others and decided he's just sloppy too often. He's still young but doesn't seem to have progressed at all in the past 12 months. I also think you're being a little generous to him regarding workrate, he was by no means busting a gut or showing for everything, though at times he was more defensively positioned than Davis and seemed to be operating alongside Cork.

 

The fact he got picked for a League Cup game featuring a significant "reserve" presence is pretty telling in its own right.

[The9]

Jesus says GR hasn't been fit enough for the first team, or words to that effect. I've no doubt they know excatly what his fitness levels are and lack of fitness could well be why he blows hot and cold. Bit odd though considering he's been with Saints for quite a while now.

 

It seems fairly obvious from our selections that both Ramirez and Yoshida are being rested in the early part of the season in order to give them the break they didn't get due to the Confederations Cup (and the year before due to the Olympics) - I wouldn't be surprised if neither of them have had a proper pre-season and it takes a long time to get back to that level if you don't have that base.

 

One thing last night did show me, was that Tadanari Lee is in no way a Prem player at the moment. His touch was poor when he had one at al, his reactions and sharpness were far behind those of players who have been playing even sporadically, and he just didn't look good enough. It's no wonder that he's been asked to do extra fitness.

[The9]

It seems to me the ones that seem to be maintaining he's brilliant are the ones that do go to games very often.

 

Not based on last night's non-performance. One hammered shot and a couple of speculative through balls in a game where there was a ton of space and time in midfield and willing forward runners with Guly and Lee to pick out. Disappointing throughout, aside from the goal, which most players would have buried, albeit not with as much power.

[The9]

I think a tiny bit of perspective is needed here. We played a cup tie where anything can happen. We played possibly our bogey team of the past few years in Bristol City who would have fancied their chances. For them it would have been a cup final and they would have been right up for it. Now for the record I couldn't go but I would like to see GR against a team that would have given us a bit of space as I think that is what suits him best. IMHO

 

There was a ton of space out there last night. Harrison Reed came on and made two thirty yard runs with the ball unchallenged, as an illustration. Albeit late on when City had tired a bit, but Davis did similar things as well. Gaston didn't.

[Saint Charlie]

Not based on last night's non-performance. One hammered shot and a couple of speculative through balls in a game where there was a ton of space and time in midfield and willing forward runners with Guly and Lee to pick out. Disappointing throughout, aside from the goal, which most players would have buried, albeit not with as much power.

 

Most players would have buried? Not sure about that.

[Whitey Grandad]

Jesus says GR hasn't been fit enough for the first team, or words to that effect. I've no doubt they know excatly what his fitness levels are and lack of fitness could well be why he blows hot and cold. Bit odd though considering he's been with Saints for quite a while now.

 

'It is a shame only 8,539 fans saw Southampton’s first home win since March as Gaston Ramirez’s opener on 15 minutes was worth the £18 ticket price alone. The forward has not started in the league this season and had a point to prove to boss Mauricio Pochettino. He did just that when James Ward-Prowse headed the ball over to him on the edge of the box and the Uruguayan volleyed home. It is unlikely there will be a sweeter struck shot than that all season.

 

Assistant manager Jesus Perez said: ‘It was a great goal, but the more important thing for him was to play 90 minutes. He joined pre-season after playing in the Confederations Cup and the breaks with the national team don’t help. He’s putting in extra training to get fit.’

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2430693/Southampton-2-Bristol-City-0--match-report-Gaston-Ramirez-Jos-Hooiveld-score.html#ixzz2fuQIGo7Y

[Saint Charlie]

Not based on last night's non-performance. One hammered shot and a couple of speculative through balls in a game where there was a ton of space and time in midfield and willing forward runners with Guly and Lee to pick out. Disappointing throughout, aside from the goal, which most players would have buried, albeit not with as much power.

 

Most players would have buried? Not sure about that.

[buctootim]

Assistant manager Jesus Perez said: ‘It was a great goal, but the more important thing for him was to play 90 minutes. He joined pre-season after playing in the Confederations Cup and the breaks with the national team don’t help. He’s putting in extra training to get fit.

 

How does that work then? Surely after playing so much football during the summer over the past two years he should be fit but probably jaded and in need of a rest?

[captainchris]

It seems to me the ones that seem to be maintaining he's brilliant are the ones that do go to games very often.

 

An interesting point but not sure how on earth you could know that.... Also bizarrely Gaston doesn't even play 'often' so what difference would attending 'often' make to

fans opinions? These days there are good live streams and TV coverage anyway for every game so really, is there much difference in what the opinions are worth whether being there or not....... I think you have a red herring there....

I would say its more a case of there are fans who watch matches overall and look at scorelines and goal

Scorers and there are fans who watch games below the surface too. Some fans look at a few highlights some look at the whole match brick by brick. A 'highlight' fan will praise Gaston and a brick by brick fan may have different ideas.....

One thing I would say is that the analogy that some are drawing of Gaston to Le Tiss is a very very long way wide of the mark.

[The9]

Most players would have buried? Not sure about that.

 

Most professional attacking players - he did hit it with an exceptional amount of power, but plenty of others could have put it in from that position by other means with the space he had. It was an excellent finish though.

[The9]

An interesting point but not sure how on earth you could know that.... Also bizarrely Gaston doesn't even play 'often' so what difference would attending 'often' make to

fans opinions? These days there are good live streams and TV coverage anyway for every game so really, is there much difference in what the opinions are worth whether being there or not....... I think you have a red herring there....

I would say its more a case of there are fans who watch matches overall and look at scorelines and goal

Scorers and there are fans who watch games below the surface too. Some fans look at a few highlights some look at the whole match brick by brick. A 'highlight' fan will praise Gaston and a brick by brick fan may have different ideas.....

One thing I would say is that the analogy that some are drawing of Gaston to Le Tiss is a very very long way wide of the mark.

 

I think those in attendance still have an overall perspective on the game you just can't get from watching on tv - you can't see off the ball movement or where players have come from or go to outside the widescreen, and you also can't choose to focus on one thing all match if you want (like, say, Ramirez's workrate, Wanyama's passing and the full range of passing options available to him at each point, etc.

 

Full live tv coverage is still only highlights that focus on what's happening in the immediate vicinity of the ball, though as you say, still better than the edited highlights - which is one of the reasons I haven't had much to say about why we were so much better against Liverpool than in other matches - it was very difficult to tell even from Sky's Match Choice extended highlights, because a lot of what we do with pressing initiates off-screen, and many of Saints' extended spells of ball-controlling possession just get cut if they don't lead to anything. We did seem to be high-pressing more than I've seen live, but I'd have to speak to someone who was there to check that... preferably someone who was sober.

[Leicestersaint]

He should be used against palace - and if so will score!

[Whitey Grandad]

One thing I would say is that the analogy that some are drawing of Gaston to Le Tiss is a very very long way wide of the mark.

 

No one is saying that he's another Le Tiss, merely drawing comparisons about their tackling abilities. It is part of the age-old debate about flair versus hard work.

[captainchris]

I think those in attendance still have an overall perspective on the game you just can't get from watching on tv - you can't see off the ball movement or where players have come from or go to outside the widescreen, and you also can't choose to focus on one thing all match if you want (like, say, Ramirez's workrate, Wanyama's passing and the full range of passing options available to him at each point, etc.

 

Full live tv coverage is still only highlights that focus on what's happening in the immediate vicinity of the ball, though as you say, still better than the edited highlights - which is one of the reasons I haven't had much to say about why we were so much better against Liverpool than in other matches - it was very difficult to tell even from Sky's Match Choice extended highlights, because a lot of what we do with pressing initiates off-screen, and many of Saints' extended spells of ball-controlling possession just get cut if they don't lead to anything. We did seem to be high-pressing more than I've seen live, but I'd have to speak to someone who was there to check that... preferably someone who was sober.

 

Yes fair comment.... Although had you watched a live match coverage it would have been probably more obvious of players with the ball losing possession ....

[captainchris]

On a more positive note for Gaston.... If some of us think he is quite a way short of the first team right now where does that leave poor Guly Du Prado one would venture??? The poor fella was so so out of it.... He really needs to be playing in a lower division now... Oh, I almost forgot we were actually playing a lower league team, who by the way I thougt were a half decent passing side and probably deserved a goal...

[channonwindmill]

I warned about this when we were tracking him and everyone was getting excited. I watch a lot of Italian football and when I was visiting my friend in Bologna I went to see Bologna v Bari. Ramirez was awful, gave the ball away 32 times, didn't tackle and ducked out of 12 50/50s, missed an open goal and a penalty and got substituted after 50 minutes. He looked disinterested and didn't run around a lot so knew it wouldn't be long before the fans here said he was sh*t. Of course I was told I was trolling and being a WUM. WTFILN?

 

How many times did he retain the ball in that game? Just out of interest, for comparison's sake.

[NickG]

Two regular criticisms from this forum:

 

1) we are not scoring from open play, lacking plan B, something different to unlock defences and make possession count. Turning into a team working hard but lacking creativity etc

 

2) Ramirez too hot and cold, scores good goals, will unlock defence, earn free kick in dangerous area, but disappears and doesn't work hard enough.

 

Would we have done better against Sunderland and West Ham with player not as involved but provides a couple of runs on edge of box, a volley when the ball is bouncing around, a flick for Osvaldo to run onto to change the game?

 

Personally think he is worth using more in these sorts of games, starting this weekend.

 

He makes mistakes, wastes corners, frustrates etc but often looks the player who worries teams the most - for example, in his short appearance in a poor team performance against WBA last season, he did more in half an hour than the others in 90.

 

I think we all are subconsciously affected by his price - good things become world class, mistakes should never be made by a player of his value.

 

In considering the fee, we should remember its not lost money, did Bale, Walcott and any other expensive young player pay back their fee quickly? No. Much of fee is for either resale value or long term performances.

 

Also, seemed huge fee for us, but when you see fees paid for Bale, Torres etc £12m is not the standard fee for a world star

[trousers]

@SouthamptonFC: .@gasramirez10: "I am very happy with how the #BristolCity game went. We played good football with quality for much of the game." #saintsfc

 

@SouthamptonFC: .@gasramirez10: "These games are important for me to get my confidence. Now I have to keep working for my chance in the league." #saintsfc

 

@SouthamptonFC: .@gasramirez10: "We know that only 11 players can start each game, so everybody is fighting hard to get into the team." #saintsfc

[Dig Dig]

Although I generally agree, what does a 12 mil player look like now a days. Generally speaking you need to spend 10mil or over to get a decent signing, even from outside the prem. If they are prem based add on a couple of mil to their price and if they are young add on a couple of mil too. Take Jay Rod, prob worth 4-5 but he was young when we signed him so add on 2mil and british usually means another mil at least.

Matt Jarvis was about 12ish I think, Everton just paid 15 mil for McCarthy.

 

It's a good point, the price tag is banded about a lot but a few of our squad would be valued in the same region and are not under the same scrutiny week in week out.

[trousers]

Two regular criticisms from this forum:

 

1) we are not scoring from open play, lacking plan B, something different to unlock defences and make possession count. Turning into a team working hard but lacking creativity etc

 

2) Ramirez too hot and cold, scores good goals, will unlock defence, earn free kick in dangerous area, but disappears and doesn't work hard enough.

 

Would we have done better against Sunderland and West Ham with player not as involved but provides a couple of runs on edge of box, a volley when the ball is bouncing around, a flick for Osvaldo to run onto to change the game?

 

Personally think he is worth using more in these sorts of games, starting this weekend.

 

He makes mistakes, wastes corners, frustrates etc but often looks the player who worries teams the most - for example, in his short appearance in a poor team performance against WBA last season, he did more in half an hour than the others in 90.

 

I think we all are subconsciously affected by his price - good things become world class, mistakes should never be made by a player of his value.

 

In considering the fee, we should remember its not lost money, did Bale, Walcott and any other expensive young player pay back their fee quickly? No. Much of fee is for either resale value or long term performances.

 

Also, seemed huge fee for us, but when you see fees paid for Bale, Torres etc £12m is not the standard fee for a world star

 

You saved me having to type out my thoughts NickG - cheers!

[Sour Mash]

It's a good point, the price tag is banded about a lot but a few of our squad would be valued in the same region and are not under the same scrutiny week in week out.

Like who?

[Sour Mash]

Two regular criticisms from this forum:

 

1) we are not scoring from open play, lacking plan B, something different to unlock defences and make possession count. Turning into a team working hard but lacking creativity etc

 

2) Ramirez too hot and cold, scores good goals, will unlock defence, earn free kick in dangerous area, but disappears and doesn't work hard enough.

 

Would we have done better against Sunderland and West Ham with player not as involved but provides a couple of runs on edge of box, a volley when the ball is bouncing around, a flick for Osvaldo to run onto to change the game?

 

Personally think he is worth using more in these sorts of games, starting this weekend.

 

He makes mistakes, wastes corners, frustrates etc but often looks the player who worries teams the most - for example, in his short appearance in a poor team performance against WBA last season, he did more in half an hour than the others in 90.

 

I think we all are subconsciously affected by his price - good things become world class, mistakes should never be made by a player of his value.

 

In considering the fee, we should remember its not lost money, did Bale, Walcott and any other expensive young player pay back their fee quickly? No. Much of fee is for either resale value or long term performances.

 

Also, seemed huge fee for us, but when you see fees paid for Bale, Torres etc £12m is not the standard fee for a world star

I don't disagree that Ramirez is a good option for unlocking teams that get men behind the ball and are hard to break down at our place, but does MP trust him? 20mins of game time across the Sunderland and West Ham game suggests maybe not?

[oracle saint]

No, no not really at all, one can only assume you are 21 and never really saw him play, to compare LeTissier to Gaston Ramirez is like comparing a Central Otago Pinot Noir to a generic Chilean piece of crap.

 

Raise your sights, Sir, seduce your taste buds and insult not the name of Le Tiss. If you are a pinot connoisseur then surely the first element of the comparison should be a good Gevrey Chambertin, possibly even a Chambolle Musigny? Something from the Côte de Nuits, anyway.

[bender]

I would sooner have this Gaston