The Victor Wanyama/Jack Cork debate

[Saint-Armstrong]

I've seen quite a few posts calling for the immediate reinstatement of Jack Cork ahead of Victor Wanyama, who had a good pre-season and opening two games - a player who is just four games into his early Saints career.

 

I initially intended a short reply elsewhere, but as the post grew and grew - I decided I'd like to write something longer.

 

Here goes...

 

 

Our problem hasn't been defending, it's been with scoring goals. Jack Cork would be making absolutely no difference to the poor finishing and heavy control in and around the penalty area.

 

I like Wanyama. He's a big unit who has assisted us in asserting dominance and adding bite to the midfield and defence.

 

His passing was poor first half yesterday, granted, but second half he was alright in my book.

 

For what it's worth, VW's pass completion was just 1% behind Morgan's, with VW actually making more attempts to pass than Morgan. Victor had 52 passes, with a completion rate of 81%, whilst Morgan obtained an 82% completion rate with just 38 passes made during the duration of the match.

 

The only player to attempt more passes than Victor was Jose Fonte, with 62 passes - a pass completion rate of 84%.

 

The only players to obtain a higher pass completion rate than Victor's 81% were Calum Chambers (100% of 4 passes being accurate), Jose Fonte (86% of 63 passes) and Morgan Schneiderlin (82% of 38 passes).

 

Victor made 3 interceptions to Morgan's 2, whilst they both provided 4 clearances each. Both committed 3 fouls against West Ham.

 

I've not been overly impressed by Morgan this season, but Victor looked good against West Brom and Sunderland. I didn't see Norwich, but did see West Ham, as stated above. Absence makes the heart grow fonder, but I can't help but feel people are overstating Cork's important to the goalscoring process, which is at current our weakness this season.

 

That said, I don't understand why he isn't making the bench in the last two games, I'd certainly pick him over Steven Davis. Cork is reliable and was a good player for us last season, coming third in the player of the year vote, if my memory serves me correctly.

 

As with anything, it takes time for things to settle in, bed in, and find some rhythm. I remember people were sceptical over dropping Hammond for the more 'slight' Jack Cork at first, worrying that we'd lose presence. I think that a pre-season, coupled with the introduction of Dejan Lovren and Victor Wanyama in front of Artur in goal has enabled us to look far more secure in an area that was considerably poor last season - shipping silly goals.

 

People seem to want everything yesterday. I've seen enough to encourage me so far that we're addressing our weakness from last season.

 

I have to say that whilst we have failed to score more than one goal in the last ten league games, I believe, that I have seen enough improvement in the defensive area, where you'd expect Pochettino's expertise to come to the fore, to deserve a bit of patience with the attacking elements.

 

Rickie and Dani are currently working out each others games, I think we have to utilise Osvaldo as the furthest forward striker, but there is a place for both, and when they click - which I believe they are beginning to already, we will start to be far more impressed with this side.

 

 

All statistics drawn from WhoScored - and are viewable here: http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/719962/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2013-2014-Southampton-West-Ham

[Lallana's Left Peg]

So on the basis of first impressions would you say it was worth investing £12.5m on a marginal upgrade on Jack Cork?

 

I'm just offering an alternative view.

Edited 16 September, 2013 by Lallana's Left Peg

[Saint-Armstrong]

So on the basis of first impressions would you say it was worth investing £12.5m on a marginal upgrade on Jack Cork?

 

I just offering an alternative view.

 

It's a theoretical question in all honesty. I was always concerned if Jack or Morgan obtained an injury last season, although I don't feel that way this season.

 

I appreciate the suggestion, but it's not something we can really judge at this point. Rickie and Jack both started strongly last season, whilst neither have looked largely impressive in a Saints shirt yet, Rickie through opportunity, but Jack has not had the opportunity.

 

I'd say it's worth the expenditure to raise the level of the squad overall and also to add more attributes to the game, providing the manager with more tactical options.

 

The fee is largely debatable. Personally I feel Wanyama is a great young talent and given more time in the Premier League will improve further.

 

The Wanyama I saw in the first two games? Yes, I'd be alright with the fee.

 

The Wanyama I saw in the last two games? No, I'd not be alright with the fee, it would be an over-payment.

 

However we are currently looking at a very small sample size.

 

Time will tell all...

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So on the basis of first impressions would you say it was worth investing £12.5m on a marginal upgrade on Jack Cork?

 

I'm just offering an alternative view.

 

Why are we so short sighted when it comes to fees? We haven't paid that money for him to be here for just a few games. He is 21, with a 4 year deal.

 

It is clear that the club will hope to develop him during the course of that stay.

 

The club are paying for his potential, not necessarily what he is going to do right now this very moment in his first couple of games.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

It's a theoretical question in all honesty. I was always concerned if Jack or Morgan obtained an injury last season, although I don't feel that way this season.

 

I appreciate the suggestion, but it's not something we can really judge at this point. Rickie and Jack both started strongly last season, whilst neither have looked largely impressive in a Saints shirt yet, Rickie through opportunity, but Jack has not had the opportunity.

 

I'd say it's worth the expenditure to raise the level of the squad overall and also to add more attributes to the game, providing the manager with more tactical options.

 

The fee is largely debatable. Personally I feel Wanyama is a great young talent and given more time in the Premier League will improve further.

 

The Wanyama I saw in the first two games? Yes, I'd be alright with the fee.

 

The Wanyama I saw in the last two games? No, I'd not be alright with the fee, it would be an over-payment.

 

However we are currently looking at a very small sample size.

 

Time will tell all...

 

I think they are all fair points. Whilst I certainly do not attribute any of our issues scoring goals with Wanyama, and he has certainly contributed to a solid defensive unit, there are just some things you see that are so bad you go 'wow'. I suppose he is a relatively inexperienced player but Cork has done nothing wrong and appears frozen out while we allow a new guy plenty of time to make mistakes that Cork just would not do.

[Raging Bull]

Personally, I believe Cork brings the best out of Morgan and he misses playing along side him. They operate on the same wavelength and it gives Morgan confidence. All IMHO of course.

 

Cork is by far a better passer than VW.

[Bearsy]

tks for interesting article Strongarms. i reckon wanyama is a lot better than cork! Srsly i do!

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Why are we so short sighted when it comes to fees? We haven't paid that money for him to be here for just a few games. He is 21, with a 4 year deal.

 

It is clear that the club will hope to develop him during the course of that stay.

 

The club are paying for his potential, not necessarily what he is going to do right now this very moment in his first couple of games.

 

Jack Cork is only 24 and made a massive difference to our first season back in the league. Could he not get better too?

[Batman]

Jack Cork is only 24 and made a massive difference to our first season back in the league. Could he not get better too?

 

isnt it the idea to have a squad of good players

rather than jack cork, morgan supplemented by dean hammond

[Lallana's Left Peg]

isnt it the idea to have a squad of good players

rather than jack cork, morgan supplemented by dean hammond

 

Yeah of course. But what else would Jack Cork have to do to get a game after the Wanyama performance against Norwich?

[Batman]

Yeah of course. But what else would Jack Cork have to do to get a game after the Wanyama performance against Norwich?

bide his time, like most players?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

bide his time, like most players?

 

Bide his time for injury or suspension? I have no issues with Cork being out of the team. But if his direct competition has an absolute stinker and he still can't make the matchday 18, it doesn't really reflect genuine competition in my eyes.

 

There is something weird going on at Saints, there appears to be a favourite and non-favourite list of players who get played regardless of form. It makes no sense.

 

By the way I am not writing off Wanyama at all, but I just don't think a squad that has genuine healthy competition would see a terrible performance by a player have him retain his place in the first team. And I appreciate you can't keep chopping and changing and need to show loyalty, but you need to give squad players a carrot.

[Batman]

Bide his time for injury or suspension? I have no issues with Cork being out of the team. But if his direct competition has an absolute stinker and he still can't make the matchday 18, it doesn't really reflect genuine competition in my eyes.

 

There is something weird going on at Saints, there appears to be a favourite and non-favourite list of players who get played regardless of form. It makes no sense.

 

By the way I am not writing off Wanyama at all, but I just don't think a squad that has genuine healthy competition would see a terrible performance by a player have him retain his place in the first team. And I appreciate you can't keep chopping and changing and need to show loyalty, but you need to give squad players a carrot.

well, yes?

[The9]

Cork would make a difference to how many goals we score because he's capable of moving the ball in midfield much more quickly and accurately than Wanyama has done so far, which will allow us to attack sides before they get the chance to set themselves in defensive positions. He's also better at controlling it and shifting it rapidly in transitions, which was one of our more successful methods of creating chances when allied to last season's pressing game.

 

Wanyama might score us one or two a season from long shots.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Jack Cork is only 24 and made a massive difference to our first season back in the league. Could he not get better too?

 

Have I once said Cork is the finished article?

 

Also, what Batman says.

 

People were crying out for a new DM, myself included, as it was painfully clear past of Jack Cork we were light.

 

We strengthened, and yet now it's an issue.

 

Pretty much the same with Lambert/Osvaldo.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

well, yes?

 

In that case there is no genuine competition then. Cork has been ousted and is just squad filler, and no matter how he plays Wanyama comes back in when fit, regardless of his level of performance. I'd bugger off if I was him, he is better than that.

[saintbob40]

Wanyama is shockingly bad. He has no idea what to do with the ball until he gets it. When he gets it he takes a few touches and then delivers a very slow pass like he has never passed a ball before. Saints have until now relied on a quick passing game which creates space by moving the opposition around. We need to do this as we are not blessed with pace. The likes of Lallana have struggled due to the pace of our game dropping. Similarly our full backs and Morgan are not being brought into the game and we lack penetration. To compensate we have resorted to longer balls . Very ugly to watch and I fear for us against the better sides. That said he will probably continue to play for the next 5 or 6 games because he cost a fortune however badly he performs and that can't be right.

[Batman]

In that case there is no genuine competition then. Cork has been ousted and is just squad filler' date=' and no matter how he plays Wanyama comes back in when fit, regardless of his level of performance. I'd bugger off if I was him, he is better than that.[/quote']

 

well there is. we were hardly free scoring last season and cork never looked like scoring once

what we are is, sat in midtable, a decent start and look much harder to beat. not a bad base to go from

[The9]

Wanyama is shockingly bad. He has no idea what to do with the ball until he gets it. When he gets it he takes a few touches and then delivers a very slow pass like he has never passed a ball before. Saints have until now relied on a quick passing game which creates space by moving the opposition around. We need to do this as we are not blessed with pace. The likes of Lallana have struggled due to the pace of our game dropping. Similarly our full backs and Morgan are not being brought into the game and we lack penetration. To compensate we have resorted to longer balls . Very ugly to watch and I fear for us against the better sides. That said he will probably continue to play for the next 5 or 6 games because he cost a fortune however badly he performs and that can't be right.

 

Completely disagree with your first 3 sentences as nonsense hyperbole, but the bit in the middle makes sense.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Cork would make a difference to how many goals we score because he's capable of moving the ball in midfield much more quickly and accurately than Wanyama has done so far, which will allow us to attack sides before they get the chance to set themselves in defensive positions. He's also better at controlling it and shifting it rapidly in transitions, which was one of our more successful methods of creating chances when allied to last season's pressing game.

 

Wanyama might score us one or two a season from long shots.

 

I understand what you are getting at, but in games such as yesterday or Sunderland, I don't think it would really have helped, as neither of those sides got out of shape. They pushed no men forward, and just plonked 10 men behind the ball for most of the game.

 

Cork isn't the answer to that.

[Upton72]

I watched it on Sky and struggled to understand why Cork wasn't even on the bench.

I think the points about Wanyama are valid, to which should be added that coming to this league from the Scottish top tier is quite a step and he needs time. As far as I can gather, he's inconsistent at present.

It is a squad game and they are all there to put pressure on each other and, hopes MP, to improve all their individual performance levels.

It looks like Morgan's game has suffered from Cork's absence but then again it takes time to adjust to a different player being alongside.

It'll be fascinating to see MP's selections for the next 3 games.

It'll give us a better indication of his capacity to make crucial decisions.

[The9]

well there is. we were hardly free scoring last season and cork never looked like scoring once

what we are is, sat in midtable, a decent start and look much harder to beat. not a bad base to go from

 

Cork never will look like scoring, he's terrible at it and his shooting in particular is poor, but the way he plays is much more suited to the way we've previously scored goals than the way his replacement is playing. What he does is affect the game when he has the ball, not by scoring goals directly.

 

By your criteria Luke Shaw is useless because he's never scored for Saints. It's nonsense.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Have I once said Cork is the finished article?

 

Also, what Batman says.

 

People were crying out for a new DM, myself included, as it was painfully clear past of Jack Cork we were light.

 

We strengthened, and yet now it's an issue.

 

Pretty much the same with Lambert/Osvaldo.

 

I've no issues with the strengthening in the DM area, and Wanyama certainly ticked many of the boxes of things we were lacking. The fee is nothing to do with him but his performances aren't at a level yet where I feel totally encouraged that he is a complete upgrade on Jack Cork, and I found it very peculiar that he could perform as he did against Norwich and yet still not even be threatened by the presence of Cork on the bench.

[The9]

I understand what you are getting at, but in games such as yesterday or Sunderland, I don't think it would really have helped, as neither of those sides got out of shape. They pushed no men forward, and just plonked 10 men behind the ball for most of the game.

 

Cork isn't the answer to that.

 

Nor is any defensive midfielder then.

[Batman]

 

By your criteria Luke Shaw is useless because he's never scored for Saints. It's nonsense.

no.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I do feel sorry for clubs sometimes. They really can't do anything right.

 

LLP I think your point about selection is fair, but likewise, if he chopped and changed every game he would be clueless, and accused of not knowing his best team.

 

I'd be worried if VW was playing bad for a longer period 4-5 games and cork still wasn't on the bench.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I do feel sorry for clubs sometimes. They really can't do anything right.

 

LLP I think your point about selection is fair, but likewise, if he chopped and changed every game he would be clueless, and accused of not knowing his best team.

 

I'd be worried if VW was playing bad for a longer period 4-5 games and cork still wasn't on the bench.

 

Fair enough. For what it is worth I find the issues in the final third by far a bigger issue than the Wanyama / Cork debate, but when you see Saints drop £12m+ on a player you have certain expectations and one of them is most definitely that you can see he is a better player than the one he replaced, and I'm not totally convinced at the moment based on a very small sample of the first four games.

[Sheaf Saint]

Our problem hasn't been defending, it's been with scoring goals. Jack Cork would be making absolutely no difference to the poor finishing and heavy control in and around the penalty area.

 

While you are absolutely correct that Wanyama cannot be blamed for our lack of creativity or goal threat, as that is clearly not his role in the team, I do believe that Cork would have made a difference yesterday in a different way. During the first half at least, Wanyama was guilty of dithering in possession: receiving the ball in or around the centre circle and taking an absolute age to decide what to do with it. This allowed the WHU players to close him down and limit his options, or close down his team-mates who were making themselves available to receive it. Quite a few times this resulted in him going backwards to keep possession or giving the ball away. JC, on the other hand, will receive the ball and release it much more quickly to feed one of the forward players, and that is what we were crying out for yesterday to penetrate their midfield better.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Nor is any defensive midfielder then.

 

Not really no.

 

The problem yesterday was finishing. At times the build up play wasn't good enough, and when we made chances - a few when you actually think about it (Osvaldo, Rickie's shot, Lallana 1-on-1, Lambert off the bar) the finishing was lacking.

 

I think Gaston may have been what was needed yesterday.

[Saint George]

Wanyama is part of the equal 4th best defence in the Premier league......In the company of Man Utd, Chelsea, Everton and Stoke.

 

If we continue to keep our 'Goals against' to well below a goal a game, then we're only going to need a goal or so a game to win far more than we loose....I can live with that.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Fair enough. For what it is worth I find the issues in the final third by far a bigger issue than the Wanyama / Cork debate' date=' but when you see Saints drop £12m+ on a player you have certain expectations and one of them is most definitely that you can see he is a better player than the one he replaced, and I'm not totally convinced at the moment based on a very small sample of the first four games.[/quote']

 

I think yesterday was better in the final third than Norwich and Sunderland if I am honest (didn't see WBA). It was painful and frustrating, but there were some chances carved out, see post to the9, which is a small positive.

 

Funny how much rides on such small margins really, could quite easily have scored a couple yday, at things look a lot better.

 

As I said above, I think some fans get hung up on fees. A lot of that £12m owes to his supposed potential. There aren't many players aged 21 who don't have issues with inconsistency. I do think it was odd Cork wasn't on the bench yesterday, but that said once the decision is made to not start him, does he really bring a lot coming off the bench? Particularly if, we were chasing the game?

 

Yesterday wasn't a good day for VW, no doubt, but it is still very early days. Saying much either way (let's not forget the jelavics/cisses/saganowskis that come flying out the traps then go missing) is premature just yet.

[The9]

no.

 

So what part of your point that "players are only worth having if they score goals" am I misunderstanding ?

 

"cork never looked like scoring once" you said, like that was some kind of flaw in his game and he couldn't contribute anything without scoring. Yet nor have Shaw, Boruc, Lovren...

[Batman]

So what part of your point that "players are only worth having if they score goals" am I misunderstanding ?

 

"cork never looked like scoring once" you said, like that was some kind of flaw in his game and he couldn't contribute anything without scoring. Yet nor have Shaw, Boruc, Lovren...

 

I would suggest a CM should be popping up with a couple of goals per season

More so than the keeper anyway

 

Thought that was pretty clear, but hey no. You are like MLG when you can be bothered

[The9]

Not really no.

 

The problem yesterday was finishing. At times the build up play wasn't good enough, and when we made chances - a few when you actually think about it (Osvaldo, Rickie's shot, Lallana 1-on-1, Lambert off the bar) the finishing was lacking.

 

I think Gaston may have been what was needed yesterday.

 

I agree it was finishing with Osvaldo's, Lambert had two shots, first half mis-hit was ok-ish given the unexpected way it broke to him, second half he bent one but you'd expect the keeper to save if it wasn't in the corner. He might have scored either another day, as with the header, which was all he could do from it. Lallana's was his touch not his finishing, he took away the chance to finish.

 

I don't see how Gaston would have improved any of those shots or Lallana's touch. Maybe we'd have created loads more chances to miss.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I agree it was finishing with Osvaldo's, Lambert had two shots, first half mis-hit was ok-ish given the unexpected way it broke to him, second half he bent one but you'd expect the keeper to save if it wasn't in the corner. He might have scored either another day, as with the header, which was all he could do from it. Lallana's was his touch not his finishing, he took away the chance to finish.

 

I don't see how Gaston would have improved any of those shots or Lallana's touch. Maybe we'd have created loads more chances to miss.

 

Fair point, well made

[Baird of the land]

Wanyama was a good addition to the squad. What i find utterly bemusing is that Cork, one of our best players from last season can't get a look in or even a place on the bench. The midfield was crying out for change yesterday.

[The9]

I would suggest a CM should be popping up with a couple of goals per season

More so than the keeper anyway

 

Thought that was pretty clear, but hey no. You are like MLG when you can be bothered

 

I set the bar at a level he can only wish to attain, let's get that straight for a start. You are right that I often can't be bothered though.

 

It wasn't at all clear, no. So you're saying that scoring a couple of long shots isn't likely to be offset by often conceding possession cheaply in your own half ?

 

You'd best tell Saints, because the whole "short goal kick" routine was based on establishing the principle of keeping possession being more important than losing it numerous times from taking longer goal kicks upfield. Yet here we have a player who we've already seen likes to try longer passes and gives it away unchallenged a couple of times a half. Shelvey just passed to the opposition in his own half twice against Liverpool, two goals resulted. Who are Saints playing on Saturday again ?

[Toomer]

I feel sorry for Cork he has done nothing wrong and given nothing but 100%.

[The9]

Fair point, well made

 

Ok, well to go back to my other point (also made by Bexy above), I think Cork gives us the ability to keep and move the ball more rapidly in the middle than Wanyama does at the moment which is vital to quick breaks, expoiting transitions when teams are out of shape already and does assist in scoring more goals.

 

We're not particularly adept at breaking down the proverbial "two banks of four" (plus one nowadays) and need to shift the ball around more effectively to pull players out of position. When you're playing 5-10 passes around your own defence before you can comfortably get it to the DM in enough space and with time to turn and look and play a pass forward, and it gets there 75% of the time not, say, 85%, before you can even build from the centre circle, that can make a lot of difference to how many chances you create over the course of a season. One thing about Cork is that I'm always confident he'll pull the ball in and move it on quickly, can't say the same about Wanyama yet.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

One thing I have noticed, and I am not sure whether it is a tactic independent of the presence of Wanyama or not, is how far forward Schneiderlin is getting. Could that be because Wanyama's presence means Pochettino is happier for Morgan to flood forward, or is it something that he would have done this season anyway? Either way we don't know and perhaps won't until Morgan is unavailable and we see whether his replacement does that or not.

[SNSUN]

Wanyama started slowly yesterday, his passes went astray and he has very little ball control, but he did improve as the match went on. Pochettino must have more confidence in him than Cork, as Morgan is getting more chance to get forward, as shown by his cracking attempt at an overhead kick and his acrobatic shot, both of which, with a lesser opposition keeper in goal, might have gone in.

 

Wanyama is the future, but in no way does this rule Cork out of our future. He still has a part to play in the squad, especially as he's so versatile, he's invaluable for that reason alone.

 

Once the strikers click this season, we'll be fine. Neither JRod, Rickie (England aside) or Osvaldo have truly got started yet, but that's still a quality forward line that will get goals. I still worry a bit about our creativity though, I'm surprised we didn't bring an attacking midfielder in, but the transfer window has passed now and there's no point thinking of what might have been.

 

A little bit of patience is required, that's all. We've perhaps missed out on a few points so far but it's still early days.The defence is looking strong. That's a plus.

[Leicestersaint]

I think we are missing Cork's creativity and passing - Schneiderlin certainly is.

[Dark Munster]

While you are absolutely correct that Wanyama cannot be blamed for our lack of creativity or goal threat, as that is clearly not his role in the team, I do believe that Cork would have made a difference yesterday in a different way. During the first half at least, Wanyama was guilty of dithering in possession: receiving the ball in or around the centre circle and taking an absolute age to decide what to do with it. This allowed the WHU players to close him down and limit his options, or close down his team-mates who were making themselves available to receive it. Quite a few times this resulted in him going backwards to keep possession or giving the ball away. JC, on the other hand, will receive the ball and release it much more quickly to feed one of the forward players, and that is what we were crying out for yesterday to penetrate their midfield better.

^ This.

 

P.S. Why are these two so happy?

 

[Smirking_Saint]

Good post Mr Armstrong

[saintbob40]

Dealing in facts alone, the Morgan/Cork partnership was pivotal in the following results during the 12/13 season:

 

16th January 2013,

 

(the then reigning European Champions)Chelsea 2 Southampton 2

 

Boruc ,Clyne ,Yoshida ,Hooiveld ,Shaw , Schneiderlin ,S Davis ,Cork , Guly , Puncheon ,Rodriguez

 

9th February 2013,

 

Southampton 3 Man City 1 (the then reigning Premier League champions)

 

Boruc ,Clyne ,Yoshida ,Hooiveld ,Fox ,Schneiderlin ,S Davis ,Cork ,Puncheon ,Lambert ,Rodriguez

 

16th March 2013

 

Southampton 3 Liverpool 1

 

Boruc , Clyne ,Yoshida ,Hooiveld, Shaw ,Schneiderlin ,Ramirez ,Cork ,Lallana ,Lambert ,Rodriguez

 

30th March 2013

 

Southampton 2 Chelsea 1

 

Boruc, Clyne ,Yoshida ,Hooiveld ,Shaw ,Schneiderlin ,S Davis ,Cork ,Puncheon, Lambert ,Rodriguez

 

Honourable mention for Man U away where we made them look like a pub team in the second half ( …sorry yes that is an opinion).

 

 

Looking at the notable games we lost e.g. QPR and West Brom at home and Newcastle away these teams deployed a long ball strategy whereby the Southampton midfield was bypassed entirely and the left channel of Saints defence in particular was attacked. This now looks fixed through the purchase of Lovren and with Shaw fit. I can’t remember any time when the opposition continually "waltzed" through our midfield. In fact quite the opposite-with little or no time being given to the opposite numbers by Cork and Morgan who pressed very effectively and got their foot in.

 

In summary, why break up a partnership which is young and developing which is able to play a large part in producing results (and performances) of that quality? It is no wonder people are hopping up and down.....

 

(p.s. interesting also to see the relative lack of Lallana involvement in the above results and the heavier involvement of Steve Davis and Puncheon-perhaps MP was onto something which he now seems to have lost sight of)

[southamptonfc]

It feels like VW has given the ball away more times this season than JC did for the whole of last season, a complete no-no for a central midfielder. Bring back Corky!

[Hamwic]

I can't see this anywhere else in the thread but I always felt that while Cork was very good at creating opportunities, he was very suspect when defending and I can remember several occasions when he just let players go past him without even a hint of a challenge. Perhaps that is why VW gets the nod. That said, I would have substituted VW for him on several occasions.

[Barry the Badger]

Dealing in facts alone, the Morgan/Cork partnership was pivotal in the following results during the 12/13 season:

 

 

I like it.

 

"Dealing in facts alone, here is my debatable opinion."

[St_Tel49]

A good thread this - for once a reasoned discussion of the players strengths and weaknesses without, for the most part, anyone feeling the need to slag off either the players involved or each other.

[John McGrath's Jockstrap]

I think that at the moment Pochettino does not know what is the best line up of 6 players in front of the back 4 and it is showing in the way we are playing. Getting the right blend is the black art of football management. All I can say is that VW is physically sronger than Cork and probably offers more of an attacking threat, but his first touch is often not the best, and his passing is variable. But going back to the blend, I would also comment that Morgan is not the presence he was last season when playing with Cork and maybe he is too similar a player to VW which accounts for change in Morgan's performance. Maybe the blend is better with Cork in there with Morgan, and Cork for sure has a better first touch, and carries the ball better than VW.

 

I also think that S. Davis is being missed. He played the pressing game very well, has a very good short passing game but appears to be the current victim of the "we paid a lot for him so we're playing him" problem that some managers fall into so isn't playing.Maybe we need some injuries/suspensions coming in to force some changes MP may not be voluntarily willing to take right now.

 

In all honesty I am not sure that many of us really know what is the correct front/mid combo. We have the players on paper, but it isn't gelling (yet).All I do know is that somebody somewhere will get a caning from us when MP does eventually get it right. I hope for his sake it is sooner rather than later as Cortese is not noted for his patience.