The latest beneficiary of the "Absence Makes The Player Grow Better" Award is...

[The9]

...Gaston Ramirez.

 

Widely derided for being lightweight, a little one-paced, not impactful enough, lacking workrate, and just not involved enough at various points over the past 12 months, having been dropped to the bench for all but the Barnsley game this season he is now the saviour of Saints, his vision and creativity will see us through, he'll link fantastically with Osvaldo and should be starting away to Liverpool.

 

So, which is it ?

 

I believe Tadanari Lee is handing over the trophy today, having added his name to the engravings alongside the names of Matt Oakley, David Prutton, Darren Powell and Michael Svensson, amongst many, many more.

 

Personally, I think he's got great vision and might well link with Osvaldo at home when he hasn't been off on a different continent earlier in the week, but in most away games when we're going to be in need of a more ball-winning midfield I can't see him starting any time soon. He's also not a magic wand to solve every problem the team has - plenty of which involve the amount of time it takes to get the ball out of defence, rather than the delay in executing once we've got the ball up front - though this is occasionally a problem too.

[Batman]

I personally thought that our best games generally came when we had davis in the middle. he is a busy player and got forward well

[Saint Charlie]

Its not even Ramirez. Its Cork...

 

On the subject of Gaston though, he is a much better starter than sub and most of our better performances last season coincided with him starting.

[The9]

I personally thought that our best games generally came when we had davis in the middle. he is a busy player and got forward well

 

I certainly agree that Davis fitted the pressing game/high transition game we played better, but we haven't really been using that so far this season. Will be interesting to see if we bring it back when it's worked against the top sides already.

[The9]

Its not even Ramirez. Its Cork...

 

Get on the Liverpool preview thread, there are plenty of Ramirez shouts as well as a few Cork ones (I'm in the latter group overall, though not for Saturday, but that's because I think Wanyama's strengths are suited to playbreaking, not creativity, so we should use him away and Cork at home generally speaking).

[Saint Charlie]

Get on the Liverpool preview thread, there are plenty of Ramirez shouts as well as a few Cork ones (I'm in the latter group overall, though not for Saturday, but that's because I think Wanyama's strengths are suited to playbreaking, not creativity, so we should use him away and Cork at home generally speaking).

 

Is Cork that creative? Would say Wanyama already looks more likely to score a goal and certainly don't remember Cork being an overly creative passer. He is neat and tidy and also a very good ballwinner.

[ericb]

I predict Wanyama as our whipping boy by the end of next season personally, he has all the traits - big transfer, plays in the position of a more popular player, is foreign and black.

 

Wanyama as a whipping boy.

 

It's happening!

[Sour Mash]

I personally thought that our best games generally came when we had davis in the middle. he is a busy player and got forward well

I'd play Davis up at Liverpool.

[The9]

Is Cork that creative? Would say Wanyama already looks more likely to score a goal and certainly don't remember Cork being an overly creative passer. He is neat and tidy and also a very good ballwinner.

 

Cork's very good at winning the ball (though I'd suggest not across as wide an area as Wanyama), but he's also very good at instant control, holding off challenges in tight areas and moving the ball on very simply and quickly to a teammate. He is gash at shooting and doesn't have a long range pass (unlike Wanyama) but in a team where a plodding transition between defence and attack which allows the opposition to get the defence organised is the main problem at the moment, a proven successful partnership which re-injects that urgency and pulls the opposition around would be great - though preferable in a home match when we actually have the ball more often.

 

Cork's already done his role successfully in certain circumstances, but you'd struggle to say the same of Gaston, though he's shown enough glimpses here and there of his talent to get some advocating him as the solution.

 

Maybe I should have given the award to Cork.

[The9]

I predict Wanyama as our whipping boy by the end of next season personally, he has all the traits - big transfer, plays in the position of a more popular player, is foreign and black.

 

Wanyama as a whipping boy.

 

It's happening!

 

I'd already drop him at home, and it's got nothing to do with any of the 4 reasons you gave.

 

Try

1) Gives possession away too easily

2) Slow on the ball

3) Doesn't suit the system we used successfully to beat top sides

4) Strengths more suited to away matches

 

I think he's got a decent shot on him (Barcelona game showed that for Celtic and yesterday's effort wasn't bad) but his limitations, which were well known in Scotland, don't seem to suit what we've been doing previously at all - we even seemed to have changed the system to accommodate him in the match against Sunderland.

[Batman]

can we not go on the celtic site and laugh at how outraged they were at selling him to someone outside of the top 4.

he is THAT good apparently

[The Kraken]

I actually rate Wanyama; and although last season I was a self-confessed full member of the Jack Cork club I think Wanyama is a step up. Granted, he was poor in the first-half yesterday but I thought he was also very good in the second half and dominated the midfield.

 

Saying that, i was surprised that JWP seemed to have jumped ahead of JC in the squad (although perhaps due to his versatility at also playing out wide this season).

 

I agree with the Gaston assessment though; and with the arrival of Osvaldo and our desire to play him and Lambert, I'm not sure where I see Ramirez fitting in to that.

[Chez]

 

Saying that, i was surprised that JWP seemed to have jumped ahead of JC in the squad (although perhaps due to his versatility at also playing out wide this season).

 

me too, and with seven subs wouldn't Cork be better suited to the middle and Ramirez to the wide position anyway? Has some sort of home grown, under 21 rule come in when I wasn't looking or is Cork injured? He was my choice for player of the season last year. I just can't get my head round how far he has fallen down the pecking order. Having not watched pre-season games can anyone tell if he was **** or has he been injured? he might not be the answer, he may not even be first choice, but not on the bench? Crazy.

[The9]

If you don't rate someone or think they're off form, they're a whipping boy.

 

If you do rate someone, don't understand their exclusion or think they could improve the team, they're the new 'absence makes the player better' candidate.

 

If you dare to say something positive about the team, a player, or prospects for the season, the dominant few will argue against a different point, using evidence from a couple of games. Their lack of intelligence is only surpassed by predictability.

 

Try to ignore it, and you get a thread full of missing posts and quotes. Talk to them, and you get the defence of a 5 year old 'oh we're not allowed say something negative....'. Net result, positive posters, negative posters, and the majority of posters whose opinions vary and generally care more about saints than being right or wrong dwindle away and the forum becomes utterly pointless.

 

It's the pigeon-holers that ruin it for me.

[Dig Dig]

I actually rate Wanyama; and although last season I was a self-confessed full member of the Jack Cork club I think Wanyama is a step up. Granted, he was poor in the first-half yesterday but I thought he was also very good in the second half and dominated the midfield.

 

Saying that, i was surprised that JWP seemed to have jumped ahead of JC in the squad (although perhaps due to his versatility at also playing out wide this season).

 

I agree with the Gaston assessment though; and with the arrival of Osvaldo and our desire to play him and Lambert, I'm not sure where I see Ramirez fitting in to that.

 

Not sure that JWP is versatile enough to play out wide but obviously MP thinks so. He won't be beating anyone on the outside anytime soon. Bit of a bizarre choice for me, especially yesterday.

[The Kraken]

Not sure that JWP is versatile enough to play out wide but obviously MP thinks so. He won't be beating anyone on the outside anytime soon. Bit of a bizarre choice for me, especially yesterday.

I agree with all of that, Diggo. That we go into the season with Omar Rowe as our only genuine wide player is rather frustrating to me, even despite the "we don't play with wingers" argument.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I agree with all of that, Diggo. That we go into the season with Omar Rowe as our only genuine wide player is rather frustrating to me, even despite the "we don't play with wingers" argument.

 

I think Lloyd Isgrove is ahead of Rowe in the pecking order at the moment.

[The Kraken]

I think Lloyd Isgrove is ahead of Rowe in the pecking order at the moment.

Ah yes. Though while that's true, it does little to ease my initial concern.

[alpine_saint]

...Gaston Ramirez.

 

Widely derided for being lightweight, a little one-paced, not impactful enough, lacking workrate, and just not involved enough at various points over the past 12 months, having been dropped to the bench for all but the Barnsley game this season he is now the saviour of Saints, his vision and creativity will see us through, he'll link fantastically with Osvaldo and should be starting away to Liverpool.

 

So, which is it ?

 

I believe Tadanari Lee is handing over the trophy today, having added his name to the engravings alongside the names of Matt Oakley, David Prutton, Darren Powell and Michael Svensson, amongst many, many more.

 

Personally, I think he's got great vision and might well link with Osvaldo at home when he hasn't been off on a different continent earlier in the week, but in most away games when we're going to be in need of a more ball-winning midfield I can't see him starting any time soon. He's also not a magic wand to solve every problem the team has - plenty of which involve the amount of time it takes to get the ball out of defence, rather than the delay in executing once we've got the ball up front - though this is occasionally a problem too.

 

Best post ever from you.

 

I personally find it very sad that we are so desperate that some elements are viewing him as our equivalent of Wilshire for England, despite the fact that Ramirez has been utterly undewhelming and failed to deliver repeatedly over the past year, and in my opinion appears to be utterly distracted from earning his ridiculous pay the entire time by side issues.

 

The only thing memorable he has delivered is a forearm smash that Big Daddy would have been proud of.

[alpine_saint]

Its not even Ramirez. Its Cork...

 

 

At least he delivered last season when he came back from Olympic injury.

 

The way he is being treated is a tragedy.

[Turkish]

There were a few rumours over the summer Cork wanted away, maybe that's why he appears to have been frozen out.

[jam]

I actually rate Wanyama; and although last season I was a self-confessed full member of the Jack Cork club I think Wanyama is a step up. Granted, he was poor in the first-half yesterday but I thought he was also very good in the second half and dominated the midfield.

 

Saying that, i was surprised that JWP seemed to have jumped ahead of JC in the squad (although perhaps due to his versatility at also playing out wide this season).

 

I agree with the Gaston assessment though; and with the arrival of Osvaldo and our desire to play him and Lambert, I'm not sure where I see Ramirez fitting in to that.

 

From my armchair I get the impression that JWP's set piece delivery stands him in good stead. Do you see this watching the game?

[The Kraken]

From my armchair I get the impression that JWP's set piece delivery stands him in good stead. Do you see this watching the game?

At the Sunderland game they were very good, and consistent too. Less impressive on Sunday, but he still seems like a step up in that department than anyone else we have.

[The9]

From my armchair I get the impression that JWP's set piece delivery stands him in good stead. Do you see this watching the game?

 

You can't fault him for developing something to make him far more useful to the team, it's his USP and he's also head and shoulders above Gaston in dead ball delivery for Saints in the past 12 months just by virtue of his assist for Fonte.

[jam]

At the Sunderland game they were very good, and consistent too. Less impressive on Sunday, but he still seems like a step up in that department than anyone else we have.

 

You can't fault him for developing something to make him far more useful to the team, it's his USP and he's also head and shoulders above Gaston in dead ball delivery for Saints in the past 12 months just by virtue of his assist for Fonte.

 

Indeed. I wonder how much this puts in ahead of other players who would on the face of it be considered 'better' than him.

[Chez]

From my armchair I get the impression that JWP's set piece delivery stands him in good stead. Do you see this watching the game?

 

he offers nothing at right midfield IMO. At WBA he was totally ineffective and should have been subbed at half time. Set pieces are important, but his aren't all that great. Certainly not good enough to justify a place in the starting line up. Right midfield has been a position that we have failed to fill since Chamberlain left. Puncheon made it his own for a while, but if Ramirez is not going to be played there we should have signed a replacement for Puncheon in the summer. We look short there. JWP is certainly not the answer.