Debate needed on veils in some public places, says minister

[Whitey Grandad]

No you didn't say that you stated that only laws are passed that have the consent of the people, regardless of whether you went to Cambridge or not you are incoreect, laws have been imposed against the will of the people for centuries.

How does the Poll Tax prove your point? It was replaced as it was so hated, it brought down Thatcher so it hardly had the will of the people.

I dont know why you felt the need to state you went to Cambridge, it does not reinforce your argument, it undermines it.

 

It matters not where I went, only that this was what was taught in the law faculty at that time. The Poll Tax failed because of the widespread opposition to it, in other words it did not have the acceptance of the public. I think that what I said is not quite the same as what you say I said:

 

'You cannot pass a law that is not supported by a large majority amongst the people it affects.'

 

That is not to say that laws have not been introduced that were opposed by some of the population. The main point is that you cannot enforce large changes in public behaviour just by passing a new law, there must be a large measure of support for it or it runs the risk of failing.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by Whitey Grandad

[Barry Sanchez]

The poll tax law/community charge was passed, what are you on about? It was then changed. Your last edited I suspect is your last paragraph as some sort of caveat.

70% of the population do not want the Royal Mail to be privatised, do you think that will matter? Many laws have to be passed for that to happen, what about the austerity measures in Greece? the protests and the Governments voting along German lines?

 

Mate its ******** what you are saying, now if you stated your example in a revolutionary sense it would hold more ground but as it stands its crap.

Edited 18 September, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Whitey Grandad]

The poll tax law/community charge was passed, what are you on about? It was then changed. Your last edited I suspect is your last paragraph as some sort of caveat.

70% of the population do not want the Royal Mail to be privatised, do you think that will matter? Many laws have to be passed for that to happen, what about the austerity measures in Greece? the protests and the Governments voting along Germans lines?

 

Mate it ******** what you are saying, now if you stated your example in a revolutionary sense it would hold more ground but as it stands its crap.

The edit was to look back and copy the quote that I gave earlier. This is not easy on an ipad and by the time I had sent the first part of the post the editing time limit had passed. Let's not go looking for motives that don't exist.

 

The Poll Tax is an example of a 'law' that was not accepted by the populace and had to be changed, which rather supports my point. Of course, strictly speaking we are talking about a government action here and not a law and the same applies Royal Mail privatisation.

 

I was only passing on what I was told. It was a bit of a surprise to me too but it was the subject of the first lecture of the first day of a law course. The big question is whether laws can direct the ways that society behaves or whether they exist to regulate existing behaviour.

[aintforever]

We are not telling them what to wear, we are telling them what they can't wear.

 

No different to a muslim country saying women can't wear certain clothes. IMO we are better than that.

[Turkish]

No different to a muslim country saying women can't wear certain clothes. IMO we are better than that.

 

So you think "we" whoever that is, are are better than those Mulsims?

[aintforever]

So you think "we" whoever that is, are are better than those Mulsims?

 

Absolutely, in terms of tolerance and respect for other religions and cultures we are way better than certain muslim countries.

[Turkish]

Absolutely, in terms of tolerance and respect for other religions and cultures we are way better than certain muslim countries.

 

So by your arrrogant attitude that "we" whoever that is, are superior to those muslims, are you not displaying a lack of respect and tolerance for their religion and culture?

[aintforever]

So by your arrrogant attitude that "we" whoever that is, are superior to those muslims, are you not displaying a lack of respect and tolerance for their religion and culture?

 

No. Our country shows more tolerance and respect for other religions and in that respect we are far superior.

 

I Saudi Arabia it is illegal to spread Christianity, choosing to convert to another religion means you face the death penalty. could you imagine trying to pass similar laws to that over here?

 

Forcing Muslims to conform to our way of dressing is no different to Saudis forcing Westerners to dress how they want us to when over there. It would be a step backwards.

Edited 18 September, 2013 by aintforever

[Barry Sanchez]

The edit was to look back and copy the quote that I gave earlier. This is not easy on an ipad and by the time I had sent the first part of the post the editing time limit had passed. Let's not go looking for motives that don't exist.

 

The Poll Tax is an example of a 'law' that was not accepted by the populace and had to be changed, which rather supports my point. Of course, strictly speaking we are talking about a government action here and not a law and the same applies Royal Mail privatisation.

 

I was only passing on what I was told. It was a bit of a surprise to me too but it was the subject of the first lecture of the first day of a law course. The big question is whether laws can direct the ways that society behaves or whether they exist to regulate existing behaviour.

 

Well to be fair you were told crap, Government are there to represent the people after they have been elected by the populace, unpopular decisions is the order of the day.

Laws/bills have to be passed for the privatisation of any public utility.

[Barry Sanchez]

One of the first lessons at law school is that you cannot pass a law that is not supported by a large majority amongst the people it affects.

 

You posted this Whitey and I know as you do law was passed on the poll tax in 89 and rescinded later on, it was the nail in Thatchers coffin so it flies in the face of what learned people said.

[Turkish]

No. Our country shows more tolerance and respect for other religions and in that respect we are far superior.

 

I Saudi Arabia it is illegal to spread Christianity, choosing to convert to another religion means you face the death penalty. could you imagine trying to pass similar laws to that over here?

 

Forcing Muslims to conform to our way of dressing is no different to Saudis forcing Westerners to dress how they want us to when over there. It would be a step backwards.

 

SO what you're saying is you dont respect the culture of Saudi Arabi and similar countires and the way of life they have?

[aintforever]

SO what you're saying is you dont respect the culture of Saudi Arabi and similar countires and the way of life they have?

 

No, they should be more tolerant to other people's cultures, just like we are.

 

The fact that your choice of religion could mean a death penalty is just medieval.

Edited 18 September, 2013 by aintforever

[Whitey Grandad]

You posted this Whitey and I know as you do law was passed on the poll tax in 89 and rescinded later on, it was the nail in Thatchers coffin so it flies in the face of what learned people said.

 

On the contrary, it supports it???

[Turkish]

No, they should be more tolerant to other people's cultures, just like we are.

 

The fact that your choice of religion could mean a death penalty is just medieval.

 

So you think our culture is superior to theirs?

[aintforever]

So you think our culture is superior to theirs?

 

Absolutely, our values of tolerance, respect and human rights are way ahead of some of these muslim sh!t holes IMO.

[Turkish]

Absolutely, our values of tolerance, respect and human rights are way ahead of some of these muslim sh!t holes IMO.

 

ahh okay, so you consider yourself superior to muslims. Glad we cleared that up.

[Bearsy]

Absolutely, our values of tolerance, respect and human rights are way ahead of some of these muslim sh!t holes IMO.

 

aintforever knew it was trap, but doesn't give fuck.

[aintforever]

ahh okay, so you consider yourself superior to muslims. Glad we cleared that up.

 

Don't be a ***t, I'm talking about certain countries laws.

 

troll

[Barry Sanchez]

On the contrary, it supports it???

 

No it does not, you quite clearly stated that laws would only be put in place by the Government if the population supported it, with the poll tax, the crisis in Greece that simply was and is not the case.

[holepuncture]

No different to a muslim country saying women can't wear certain clothes. IMO we are better than that.

 

 

So you think "we" whoever that is, are are better than those Mulsims?

 

Absolutely, in terms of tolerance and respect for other religions and cultures we are way better than certain muslim countries.

 

 

So by your arrrogant attitude that "we" whoever that is, are superior to those muslims, are you not displaying a lack of respect and tolerance for their religion and culture?

 

SO what you're saying is you dont respect the culture of Saudi Arabi and similar countires and the way of life they have?

 

No, they should be more tolerant to other people's cultures, just like we are.

 

The fact that your choice of religion could mean a death penalty is just medieval.

 

 

So you think our culture is superior to theirs?

 

Absolutely, our values of tolerance, respect and human rights are way ahead of some of these muslim sh!t holes IMO.

 

 

ahh okay, so you consider yourself superior to muslims. Glad we cleared that up.

 

Don't be a ***t, I'm talking about certain countries laws.

 

troll

 

 

LOL, this is what I meant, poor show from the viscious liberal elite and total disrespect to the M.E culture. Im not sure why you keep going on about religion and law, the burka issue is a cultural one, nothing at all to do with religion and law.

 

Its like backing a rat into a corner, once there is nowhere to go... they get deperate and lose all reasonable grasp of rationality and reality.. hence they 'attack' you with aggresive words and personal insults, always failing to notice the irony of it all.

 

They are a danger to us all.

[Barry Sanchez]

Holepuncture

Thats not neccessarily true, people of Muslim faith have been disccussing this for years as to whether its mainly or solely a cultural thing or a religious one, they are connected that is for sure but whether its solely one of the other is up for debate.

[Turkish]

Don't be a ***t, I'm talking about certain countries laws.

 

troll

 

Look mate, dont get all abusive because you've been shown up as a racist who hates muslims. Its not my fault you're a bigot.

[Verbal]

Holepuncture

Thats not neccessarily true, people of Muslim faith have been disccussing this for years as to whether its mainly or solely a cultural thing or a religious one, they are connected that is for sure but whether its solely one of the other is up for debate.

 

You're right (!) The idea that the niqab is a cultural issue doesn't account for the fact that many women are from cultures where it is not worn. If you ask them, they will always say that they wear the niqab for religious reasons.

 

This DOESN"T mean that the niqab is an integral part of Islam - it isn't. Nor can you find any justification for it in the Koran (there are only vague references to "modesty"). But when the niqab is worn, the reason given is always "religious", which is why Muslim converts, like the one in court refusing to remove her covering, stand on their rights. They don't rationalise it by saying "that's what I've always done in my culture" because they plainly haven't.

 

The niqab is in any case a recent "innovation" and was introduced by an eighteenth century woman-hater called Mohammad bin Wahhab, who, after being expelled for his violence by several bedouin tribes, finally did a deal with a tribal head called Saud... And then they discovered oil.

[solentstars]

i say we should smoke out the liberal elite gang:)they cause most of the world problems :Dand then life will be good and don,t forget do gooders as well, fancy wanting to help ordinary people:p we got to be in the i,m all-right jack gang and march all round the country to show we are not takeing it any more.

[Saint_Pedro]

Barry - I think I'd accept the word of an Iman rather than you on that subject :-

"It is disingenuous for Muslims to claim that wearing the niqab or burka is Islamic. The requirement to conceal the face does not feature anywhere in the Koran. It is an archaic, aristocratic custom originating in ancient Persia that spread to Byzantium and was later adopted by misogynistic Muslim society.

 

Many Muslims have been conditioned to conflate culture with religion and befuddle liberal Britain that this is a principle of religious freedom and human rights when it is neither. It is against Islamic law for masked women to undertake a pilgrimage to Mecca or to perform their daily prayers. If women are prevented from hiding their identity at Islam’s holiest shrine, why is it necessary for them to do so here?

 

Britain must join France and Belgium in outlawing all public anonymity. Anything less would amount to sexist discrimination against British men, who are not permitted to conceal their identity in public.

 

Imam Dr Taj Hargey

Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford

[solentstars]

Don't be a ***t, I'm talking about certain countries laws.

 

troll

don,t waste your breath aintforever your better than that ..most of the forum posters know hes a weirdo ,just its his idea of fun.hes just the same on the ugly inside and not a patch on my old mate dune the legend.

[hutch]

We could certainly save the treasury an absolute fortune in CCTV surveillance if we all wore one, couldn't we?

[Bearsy]

how bout if we just make them wear nametags?

[buctootim]

how bout if we just make them wear nametags?

with address and phone numbers?

[Barry Sanchez]

i say we should smoke out the liberal elite gang:)they cause most of the world problems :Dand then life will be good and don,t forget do gooders as well, fancy wanting to help ordinary people:p we got to be in the i,m all-right jack gang and march all round the country to show we are not takeing it any more.

 

Solent with the greatest of respect, you are coming across as completely naive and having no knowledge of history and politics, I think you are confusing yourself. You dont know what a Liberal Elite is and yet feel to the to comment upon modern Liberalism and Eliteism in the form of education to the highest positions of society to the detriment of the working classes.

Start with this book and go from there for good reference,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Labour-Party-Since-1945-Contemporary/dp/0631196552/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379513137&sr=8-1&keywords=labour+party+since+1945

[Barry Sanchez]

Barry - I think I'd accept the word of an Iman rather than you on that subject :-

"It is disingenuous for Muslims to claim that wearing the niqab or burka is Islamic. The requirement to conceal the face does not feature anywhere in the Koran. It is an archaic, aristocratic custom originating in ancient Persia that spread to Byzantium and was later adopted by misogynistic Muslim society.

 

Many Muslims have been conditioned to conflate culture with religion and befuddle liberal Britain that this is a principle of religious freedom and human rights when it is neither. It is against Islamic law for masked women to undertake a pilgrimage to Mecca or to perform their daily prayers. If women are prevented from hiding their identity at Islam’s holiest shrine, why is it necessary for them to do so here?

 

Britain must join France and Belgium in outlawing all public anonymity. Anything less would amount to sexist discrimination against British men, who are not permitted to conceal their identity in public.

 

Imam Dr Taj Hargey

Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford

 

I dont disagree with that at all, I fully agree, I said and I stand by Muslim scholars have debated on whether the niqab is cutural or religious, your quote obviously states its cultural and I dont disagree, think before you jump in lad.

Edited 18 September, 2013 by Barry Sanchez

[Whitey Grandad]

how bout if we just make them wear nametags?

 

Or a life-size photo of their face stuck to the front? With holes for the eyes, of course.

[Bearsy]

Or a life-size photo of their face stuck to the front? With holes for the eyes, of course.

 

yeah that is good compromise + would not offend muslim jesus.

[aintforever]

LOL, this is what I meant, poor show from the viscious liberal elite and total disrespect to the M.E culture. Im not sure why you keep going on about religion and law, the burka issue is a cultural one, nothing at all to do with religion and law.

 

It's about tolerance. The way muslim's dress makes no difference to me whatsoever. If they want to dress like a Jehdi ninja that is up to them. Just like if a Western woman wants to wear a mini skirt on holiday it doesn't effect anyone else.

 

I find the way people make an issue of it quite bizarre.

Edited 18 September, 2013 by aintforever

[Turkish]

It's about tolerance. The way muslim's dress makes no difference to me whatsoever. If they want to dress like a Jehdi ninja that is up to them. Just like if a Western woman wants to wear a mini skirt on holiday it doesn't effect anyone else.

 

I find the way people make an issue of it quite bizarre.

 

So you think when visiting a foreign country you should respect their customs and tradition, such as wearing appropriate attire?

[Barry Sanchez]

So you think when visiting a foreign country you should respect their customs and tradition, such as wearing appropriate attire?

 

Of course you should, when I go to Texas I dress as a cowboy and when I go to Bahrain I dress like a ghost...................

[aintforever]

So you think when visiting a foreign country you should respect their customs and tradition, such as wearing appropriate attire?

 

I don't expect visitors of my country to dress how I want, I expect them to wear whatever they choose.

[Turkish]

I don't expect visitors of my country to dress how I want, I expect them to wear whatever they choose.

 

You see I'm confused by what you think, perhaps you can help. On the one hand you say more countries should do what we do, whoever "we" is and that we are so superior to all these backward countries, because we respect other religions and cultures. Yet on the other hand you're saying that when we visit these countries we should do what we want because no one tells us what to do and if their culture is women dont wear miniskirts, tough sh*t, wear them anyway. Are you sure you know what you think?

[solentstars]

Solent with the greatest of respect, you are coming across as completely naive and having no knowledge of history and politics, I think you are confusing yourself. You dont know what a Liberal Elite is and yet feel to the to comment upon modern Liberalism and Eliteism in the form of education to the highest positions of society to the detriment of the working classes.

Start with this book and go from there for good reference,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Labour-Party-Since-1945-Contemporary/dp/0631196552/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379513137&sr=8-1&keywords=labour+party+since+1945

just having abit of fun barry but has its a term i find used by a lot of people in the uk with a axe to grind for their pet hates.i agree that all our party leaders are member of the liberal elite and have been for years but liberal elite has different meanings in australia and the usa where its often linked with neo consertives and free markets.

[Barry Sanchez]

just having abit of fun barry but has its a term i find used by a lot of people in the uk with a axe to grind for their pet hates.i agree that all our party leaders are member of the liberal elite and have been for years but liberal elite has different meanings in australia and the usa where its often linked with neo consertives and free markets.

 

Liberal Elites has a different meaning in Burundi but that has nothing to with the discussion either Solent.

[Barry Sanchez]

Some people on here mentioning no names laughed when they first heard the term believing it a made up term off the cuff by me, its been around for years and used more and more now as the elite dominate politics once again and gained votes by adopting liberal policies and appealing to the middle ground, or they genuinely could be liberal sops like Clegg and to a degree Blair.

[holepuncture]

Barry - I think I'd accept the word of an Iman rather than you on that subject :-

"It is disingenuous for Muslims to claim that wearing the niqab or burka is Islamic. The requirement to conceal the face does not feature anywhere in the Koran. It is an archaic, aristocratic custom originating in ancient Persia that spread to Byzantium and was later adopted by misogynistic Muslim society.

 

Many Muslims have been conditioned to conflate culture with religion and befuddle liberal Britain that this is a principle of religious freedom and human rights when it is neither. It is against Islamic law for masked women to undertake a pilgrimage to Mecca or to perform their daily prayers. If women are prevented from hiding their identity at Islam’s holiest shrine, why is it necessary for them to do so here?

 

Britain must join France and Belgium in outlawing all public anonymity. Anything less would amount to sexist discrimination against British men, who are not permitted to conceal their identity in public.

 

Imam Dr Taj Hargey

Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford

 

It's about tolerance. The way muslim's dress makes no difference to me whatsoever. If they want to dress like a Jehdi ninja that is up to them. Just like if a Western woman wants to wear a mini skirt on holiday it doesn't effect anyone else.

 

I find the way people make an issue of it quite bizarre.

 

MPs are calling for a debate on it in parliament, so it is clearly an issue..

 

Read the comments above too from the Imam Dr Taj Hargey, it is not about law or religion, in fact the burka goes against islamic law for a pilgrimage to Mecca.

 

Nobody other than Bridge Too Far has answered the OP questions:

 

How would you all feel in the following scenarios:

 

Fully veiled person walks into a capacity SMS and sits next to you.

Fully veiled person walks into a busy bar you are in.

Fully veiled person knocks on your front door and you are alone.

 

What are your views?

 

This thread shows how opinion is split on this issue

 

In my opinion it isnt about tolerance, I believe there is a security risk with the burka. It has been used as a disguise to commit crime in our capital city, there have been acid attacks on innocent women by people disguised in the burka. My fear is that it is the perfect tool for concealing weapons, and I am well aware the instances of crime are low in numbers at present.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271921/Naomi-Oni-Victorias-Secret-worker-scarred-life-niqab-wearing-attacker-threw-acid-face.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22811466

 

People are told to remove motorcycle helmets when entering petrol stations etc, yet the burka isnt, even though you could conceal some pretty horriffic things inside them as seen in the links above (acid, sledgehammers etc).

 

My fear is that the liberal elite will continue to embelish mock outrage on behalf of muslims whilst not actually understanding the wider issue at all.

 

I fear that the liberal elite will not change their position on this matter until some poor soul has been killed, unfortunately.

 

Which, with a heavy heart leads me with little choice but to say:

 

Ban the burka, and any other item of clothing used to completely conceal ones identity (in public places).

[Barry Sanchez]

How would you all feel in the following scenarios:

 

 

 

What are your views?

 

Fully veiled person walks into a capacity SMS and sits next to you?

 

I wouldn't agree with it but I would accept it and be polite, its an issue with the law not the individual.

 

Fully veiled person walks into a busy bar you are in?

 

How are you going to drink a pint of mild through that.

 

Fully veiled person knocks on your front door and you are alone?

 

Well I have to admit I would be rather confused and scared at the prospect of opening a door in that scenario.

 

What are your views?

[Barry Sanchez]

MPs are calling for a debate on it in parliament, so it is clearly an issue..

 

Read the comments above too from the Imam Dr Taj Hargey, it is not about law or religion, in fact the burka goes against islamic law for a pilgrimage to Mecca.

 

Nobody other than Bridge Too Far has answered the OP questions:

 

How would you all feel in the following scenarios:

 

Fully veiled person walks into a capacity SMS and sits next to you.

Fully veiled person walks into a busy bar you are in.

Fully veiled person knocks on your front door and you are alone.

 

What are your views?

 

This thread shows how opinion is split on this issue

 

In my opinion it isnt about tolerance, I believe there is a security risk with the burka. It has been used as a disguise to commit crime in our capital city, there have been acid attacks on innocent women by people disguised in the burka. My fear is that it is the perfect tool for concealing weapons, and I am well aware the instances of crime are low in numbers at present.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271921/Naomi-Oni-Victorias-Secret-worker-scarred-life-niqab-wearing-attacker-threw-acid-face.html

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22811466

 

People are told to remove motorcycle helmets when entering petrol stations etc, yet the burka isnt, even though you could conceal some pretty horriffic things inside them as seen in the links above (acid, sledgehammers etc).

 

My fear is that the liberal elite will continue to embelish mock outrage on behalf of muslims whilst not actually understanding the wider issue at all.

 

I fear that the liberal elite will not change their position on this matter until some poor soul has been killed, unfortunately.

 

Which, with a heavy heart leads me with little choice but to say:

 

Ban the burka, and any other item of clothing used to completely conceal ones identity (in public places).

 

Loving the Liberal Elite usage, it gets right up them you know.

[aintforever]

M

 

Fully veiled person walks into a capacity SMS and sits next to you.

Fully veiled person walks into a busy bar you are in.

Fully veiled person knocks on your front door and you are alone.

 

What are your views?[/i]

 

I wouldn't care in the slightest. I would probably ask them why they feel the need to wear it.

 

Security is obviously an issue at airports, banks etc but Muslim countries seem to cope somehow without banks being robbed and planes being blown up all over the place so I don't see why it has to be an issue here.

 

I used to live in London so saw plenty of veiled muslims, I thought they looked a bit weird and spooky but that's my problem not theirs.

[Whitey Grandad]

I wouldn't care in the slightest. I would probably ask them why they feel the need to wear it.

 

Security is obviously an issue at airports, banks etc but Muslim countries seem to cope somehow without banks being robbed and planes being blown up all over the place so I don't see why it has to be an issue here.

 

I used to live in London so saw plenty of veiled muslims, I thought they looked a bit weird and spooky but that's my problem not theirs.

 

You probably saw more in London than you would in the Middle East.

[Barry Sanchez]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-24130438

 

I think that kind of proves the issue here, on the front page of the Liverpool metro this morning as well.

[saint si]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-24130438

 

I think that kind of proves the issue here, on the front page of the Liverpool metro this morning as well.

 

Proves what? That people sometimes commit crimes?

[Barry Sanchez]

Proves what? That people sometimes commit crimes?

 

Yes indeed using a veil to mask their identity.

[Manuel]

No mention of a veil in that report. And she's been successfully prosecuted. Nice trolling.