Debate needed on veils in some public places, says minister

[holepuncture]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24104811

 

I’m not too sure where I stand on this subject, but MPs want to debate it.

 

The government should consider banning Muslim girls from wearing veils in public places such as schools, a Lib Dem Home Office minister has said.

 

Jeremy Browne said he was "uneasy" about restricting freedoms, but urged a national debate on the state's role in stopping veils being imposed on girls.

 

On one hand, I feel very uncomfortable in London at times being exposed to the full veil. For example, a full bodied/faced veil coming towards me on the pavement, I have to cross the road as I feel threatened and potentially in danger. I have never seen a full veil on the tube and I often wonder how people would cope with that?!

 

On the other hand, students dress up all the time when out having fun, completely covering themselves up, motorcyclists are pretty much covered, protesters are often wearing a mask of some sort.

 

How would you all feel in the following scenarios:

 

Fully veiled person walks into a capacity SMS and sits next to you.

Fully veiled person walks into a busy bar you are in.

Fully veiled person knocks on your front door and you are alone.

 

What are your views?

[Gemmel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-24112067

 

Judge rules she has to take off veil to give evidence

[bridge too far]

I don't feel threatened by a female wearing a veil or a niqab. I'd rather see that than some of the poor taste exhibited by some young (and old) such as shorts / football shirts (barely covering beer bellies), leggings and copious tattoos.

 

Having said that, I firmly believe everyone should be able to dress as they please (within the bounds of decency) and it must be quite liberating to not have to dress according to others' expectations.

[Whitey Grandad]

I find it deeply offensive that anybody should cover their face in public and in my presence. Facial contact is an important part if our culture and communications.

[bridge too far]

I find it deeply offensive that anybody should cover their face in public and in my presence. Facial contact is an important part if our culture and communications.

 

So how do people with visual impairments cope?

[buctootim]

So how do people with visual impairments cope?

 

Thats why they're called disabled or handicapped - because not being able to see is a handicap.

[Manuel]

Naked Rambler man gets locked up for not covering up, now women to be locked up for covering up too much. I don't think people should have the power to force others to wear fabric or choose what style is appropriate. Way outside of their remit.

 

Having said that I think the hijab/veils are a symbol of the oppression of women and as such should be discouraged, but you do that through education and encouraging freedoms not by locking people up. It's a contradiction.

[Verbal]

The niqab conceals not just physical features but motives for wearing it. The issue of consent vs coercion is incredibly hard to untangle.

 

What is certainly true, however, is that the majority of women wearing them in the UK do NOT have cultural reasons for wearing them. Aside from a very small minority from the Arabian Gulf, most women wearing them are South Asian and come from communities where head covering, but not full-face covering, was the norm. Even those women from Saudi Arabia and other 'conservative' states on the peninsula have a cultural tradition that is barely three hundred years old.

 

The niqab is about male power, and always has been since Muhammad ibn Wahhab, a violent extremist, entered a pact in 1744 with a bedouin called Saud. Wahhab's violence was always directed with special venom at women. The niqab and its variants is the result.

[aintforever]

Telling people what they can and cannot wear is something you expect from some backward middle eastern sh!t hole like Saudi Arabia.

 

If people are offended by what muslims wear it is their ignorance that is the problem, not the clothes.

[Whitey Grandad]

Telling people what they can and cannot wear is something you expect from some backward middle eastern sh!t hole like Saudi Arabia.

 

If people are offended by what muslims wear it is their ignorance that is the problem, not the clothes.

 

Not at all. If I were a shopkeeper and somebody came in wearing a balaclava or a Zorro mask I would assume that they wanted to conceal their identity. The same would apply to anybody working behind a reception desk or in any position requiring regular contact with the public. There is a big difference between covering your hair with a scarf and completely obscuring your face.

[holepuncture]

I don't feel threatened by a female wearing a veil or a niqab. I'd rather see that than some of the poor taste exhibited by some young (and old) such as shorts / football shirts (barely covering beer bellies), leggings and copious tattoos.

 

Having said that, I firmly believe everyone should be able to dress as they please (within the bounds of decency) and it must be quite liberating to not have to dress according to others' expectations.

 

Its interesting you say that, as the (non-Muslim) men in the article below perused a shopping centre for over a hour in full veil whilst no-one identified them as men, nor did they identify the sledgehammers and swag bags beneath their chosen apparel. Those concealed weapons could have been far more dangerous to the public and went completely undetected despite advanced security systems, the eye of the public et al, for over an hour.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2374055/Unveiled-The-burka-wearing-men-stole-1m-designer-watches-smash-grab-attack-caught-crashed-getaway-bike.html

 

As a mother/grandmother/great grandmother, genuinely, how would you feel in the following scenarios?:

 

Fully veiled person walks into a capacity SMS and sits next to you.

Fully veiled person walks into a busy bar you are in.

Fully veiled person knocks on your front door and you are alone, and its late at night.

 

What are your views?

 

I find it deeply offensive that anybody should cover their face in public and in my presence. Facial contact is an important part if our culture and communications.

 

It dosent offend me at all personally in the same way I dont get offended by students wearing a giant Buzz Lightyear costume or a Groucho mask.

 

My issue is security and safety, both of which I feel are at risk in the face of the burka.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400550799061?lpid=54&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=54

 

Burqa Costume Burqua Fancy Dress outfit Traditional Sharia burka bride

UK made - Buy it now £19.95

 

Might buy one for the pub!

[Barry Sanchez]

Its quite simple, what do the majority of the people think? Stoneage custom if you ask me and does nothing for social intergration.

[bridge too far]

"As a mother/grandmother/great grandmother, genuinely, how would you feel in the following scenarios?:

 

Fully veiled person walks into a capacity SMS and sits next to you.

Fully veiled person walks into a busy bar you are in.

Fully veiled person knocks on your front door and you are alone, and its late at night.

 

What are your views?"

 

Oi! Less of the great grandmother! Unless, of course, you mean I'm a grandmother who's great in which case I'll forgive you

 

None of those scenarios would frighten me although I'm unlikely to put them to the test. I live in a town that has a large Muslim population and I don't feel threatened by this. I'd probably feel more threatened by a gang of young men (of any ethnic origin).

 

I'll slightly amend my view though by saying that no woman should be forced to wear the veil or niqab. Just as no woman should be pressurised to wear anything she doesn't want to

[Hatch]

 

On one hand, I feel very uncomfortable in London at times being exposed to the full veil. For example, a full bodied/faced veil coming towards me on the pavement, I have to cross the road as I feel threatened and potentially in danger. I have never seen a full veil on the tube and I often wonder how people would cope with that?!

 

What the **** is the matter with you?

[Manuel]

I don't think anybody here is going to admit to LIKING the veil or being particularly comfortable if someone in the vacinity was wearing one. But what people LIKE or are comfortable with is rather missing the point if you ask me. It's not all about you and what you are comfortable with it's about people having the freedom to do what they want.

 

If you want to see fewer veils in the community then society shouldn't punish the women, it should have a word with their husbands or their religious leaders. Why is your wife/child wearing this garment in our society? Why is she being oppressed? We disagree with this opression. Perhaps society should focus its efforts with philosophical debate rather than bans.

[badgerx16]

I don't think many fully veiled women would be walking into bars, busy or not.

[Barry Sanchez]

I don't think anybody here is going to admit to LIKING the veil or being particularly comfortable if someone in the vacinity was wearing one. But what people LIKE or are comfortable with is rather missing the point if you ask me. It's not all about you and what you are comfortable with it's about people having the freedom to do what they want.

 

If you want to see fewer veils in the community then society shouldn't punish the women, it should have a word with their husbands or their religious leaders. Why is your wife/child wearing this garment in our society? Why is she being oppressed? We disagree with this opression. Perhaps society should focus its efforts with philosophical debate rather than bans.

 

You cant assume its oppression you have to prove it which would be very difficult to do, you can ban it as is not the custom of this Country, we use facial expression as a form of communication, how do you identify someone? Womens changing facility, child in a pub, adult posing as a child? Its another split. up here in the North there is a lot of this, Oldham, Burnley and Rochdale, broken places and truly awful areas where extremism of all forms has been allowed to grow and fester because of weak liberal pc brigade ****e, the liberal elite of this Country are the real enemy.

[Barry Sanchez]

I don't think many fully veiled women would be walking into bars, busy or not.

 

Again whats to stop them and in turn anyone?

[Barry Sanchez]

I don't think anybody here is going to admit to LIKING the veil or being particularly comfortable if someone in the vacinity was wearing one. But what people LIKE or are comfortable with is rather missing the point if you ask me. It's not all about you and what you are comfortable with it's about people having the freedom to do what they want.

 

If you want to see fewer veils in the community then society shouldn't punish the women, it should have a word with their husbands or their religious leaders. Why is your wife/child wearing this garment in our society? Why is she being oppressed? We disagree with this opression. Perhaps society should focus its efforts with philosophical debate rather than bans.

 

For a debate in society you have to be a part of that said society, can you say that for an awful lot of muslims that reside in seperate areas and go to different schools and never have to intergrate with the majority?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

the liberal elite

 

lol

[swannymere]

Isn't this about how we feel about the veil rather than what it actually represents, if you feel threatened and need to cross the road that says more about what's going on in your head than the wearer. The only occasion where it should be essential to remove the veil is when identity is needed such as court or passport control.

[Manuel]

For a debate in society you have to be a part of that said society, can you say that for an awful lot of muslims that reside in seperate areas and go to different schools and never have to intergrate with the majority?

Fair point, but I think it would be worth a try for society to try and engage on this matter, and it hasn't really been attempted with any vigour as far as I can see. Better than to go down the French path. The vast majority of Muslims do not wear veils so I'm sure there must be a little wiggle room within Islam.

[Barry Sanchez]

Isn't this about how we feel about the veil rather than what it actually represents, if you feel threatened and need to cross the road that says more about what's going on in your head than the wearer. The only occasion where it should be essential to remove the veil is when identity is needed such as court or passport control.

Police checks, pensions, claiming at the job centre, oyster card, the face in the Western World is needed to identify yourself as the face is valued.

[Barry Sanchez]

Fair point, but I think it would be worth a try for society to try and engage on this matter, and it hasn't really been attempted with any vigour as far as I can see. Better than to go down the French path. The vast majority of Muslims do not wear veils so I'm sure there must be a little wiggle room within Islam.

 

Ah ironically our Socialist brothers of true intent across the sea have shown real purpose and for this they should be applauded for not giving in and sticking to their guns.

The majority wanted a ban and they got it, they are right. It should never be the tail wagging the dog.

 

The Liberal Elite would not pull the plug on a cold bath for fear of offense to the vocal minority.

[Whitey Grandad]

Isn't this about how we feel about the veil rather than what it actually represents, if you feel threatened and need to cross the road that says more about what's going on in your head than the wearer. The only occasion where it should be essential to remove the veil is when identity is needed such as court or passport control.

 

I am offended that somebody wants to be able to see my face without me being able to see theirs. I don't care what religion, creed or colour they are. The major part of communication is non verbal.

[Barry Sanchez]

Pat Condell on you tube I am offended is very funny and quite true. We are pathetic and weak for allowing it too be honest.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

just who are the "Liberal Elite"?

[Barry Sanchez]

just who are the "Liberal Elite"?

 

So you lol and dont know who the Liberal elite are or is? Start with Clegg, Cameron and Miliband and we can go from there.

[View From The Top]

The veil is nothing to do with Islam, it's merely cultural.

 

Having taught in mosques and to female only Muslim classes for neigh on 6 years in the Black Country I feel confident enough to state that many, many Muslim women feel very uncomfortable with veiled women. They are considered far too extreme and a threat to progression Muslim women are making.

[Sour Mash]

What happened at Birmingham College last week should be a worry for most of us. Not only are students now allowed to cover their faces on college premises, classes and tutorials, totally at odds with the basics of communication and safety in such an environment, but it has also sent the message that certain sections of the community can get the College to back-track when enough pressure and threats are applied.

[View From The Top]

What happened at Birmingham College last week should be a worry for most of us. Not only are students now allowed to cover their faces on college premises, classes and tutorials, totally at odds with the basics of communication and safety in such an environment, but it has also sent the message that certain sections of the community can get the College to back-track when enough pressure and threats are applied.

 

Not where I work. No veils, end of. Also the same at all the Black Country colleges.

[Barry Sanchez]

The veil is nothing to do with Islam, it's merely cultural.

 

Having taught in mosques and to female only Muslim classes for neigh on 6 years in the Black Country I feel confident enough to state that many, many Muslim women feel very uncomfortable with veiled women. They are considered far too extreme and a threat to progression Muslim women are making.

 

You say progression but you dont say from whom, the state treats them equally so I can only assume you mean their fellow muslims, they (Husbands, family, elders)may never bow down to what is actually right but what must happen for a start is no more seperate apartheid areas in towns and Cities, this has done as much damage as any policy has, the Liberal Elite call this multiculturism, its not and we are being lied to, its segregation and and has lead us to this state we are in.

[Sour Mash]

Not where I work. No veils, end of. Also the same at all the Black Country colleges.

Fair enough, but not at Birmingham College. Could become a worrying trend.

[Sour Mash]

Not where I work. No veils, end of. Also the same at all the Black Country colleges.

Fair enough, but not at Birmingham College. Could become a worrying trend.

[Sour Mash]

Not where I work. No veils, end of. Also the same at all the Black Country colleges.

Fair enough, but not at Birmingham College. Could become a worrying trend.

[Saintandy666]

I would never ever want the government to dictate what someone can or can't wear, so I'd be deeply uncomfortable with any ban. That doesn't mean I approve of veils however, whatever their theological justification. However, we must respect peoples' right to choose.

 

Despite this I still believe there are certain situations and places where veils and face covering simply is not practical and could be detrimental to others which is were the line has to be drawn. One example of this for example is in a court where it is vital that the witnesses face can be seen or in a school where it is vital to be 100% who is in the room/face contact is important in learning.

[solentstars]

So you lol and dont know who the Liberal elite are or is? Start with Clegg, Cameron and Miliband and we can go from there.

thats great i love to join this liberal elite:lol: who run the world,are they related to righty and lefty

[Turkish]

I don't feel threatened by a female wearing a veil or a niqab. I'd rather see that than some of the poor taste exhibited by some young (and old) such as shorts / football shirts (barely covering beer bellies), leggings and copious tattoos.

 

Having said that, I firmly believe everyone should be able to dress as they please (within the bounds of decency) and it must be quite liberating to not have to dress according to others' expectations.

 

Its great that you don't, but surely if some people feel threatened by it then we need to consider them and react accordingly.

[Batman]

Its great that you don't, but surely if some people feel threatened by it then we need to consider them and react accordingly.

 

I dont feel threatened or offended by the word YID. but accept others may

[Patrick Bateman]

Must admit, I'm not keen. It's kind of irrational, but I occasionally see someone wearing one on the tube and I always find it a bit odd. Just reminds me of Darth Vadar ...

 

Okay, maybe not Darth Vadar, but I do have some irrational negative thoughts about who is wearing it and why, especially when occasionally you get someone who is tall. I do find it highly hypocritical as well; whilst going on holiday in the summer, we stopped at Doha. Apart from being the worst airport in the world, all the blokes were in shorts and t-shirts dragging their women around in the full gear. I think they need some cra-burning feminists and rainbow lace trainer wearers to enlighten them ...

[Turkish]

I dont feel threatened or offended by the word YID. but accept others may

 

Very true Jamie. If I saw a Jewish person be racially abused using the word yid, the very least the abuser can expect from me is a foam hand slapped round his cannister.

[Barry Sanchez]

thats great i love to join this liberal elite:lol: who run the world,are they related to righty and lefty

Solent they are neither they are the enemy of the people, read some books man. Champagne socialists are worse than a tory, the rich socialist pats the workers head whilst sipping the finest wines from an area only the very wealthy could live, at least a tory bastard will tell you straight he is a bastard.

[Pedro]

Not read every response but was in a service station the other day where the rule was for motorcyclists to approach the pay desk without wearing their crash helmets. If I have to uncover my facial features as a Brit then foreigners should do the same. I feel very uncomfortable seeing a "person" (we don't actually know whether male or female) are wearing full veils.

[Pedro]

Not read every response but was in a service station the other day where the rule was for motorcyclists to approach the pay desk without wearing their crash helmets. If I have to uncover my facial features as a Brit then foreigners should do the same. I feel very uncomfortable seeing a "person" (we don't actually know whether male or female) are wearing full veils.

Forgot to say that I originate from an immigrant family.

[solentstars]

Solent they are neither they are the enemy of the people, read some books man. Champagne socialists are worse than a tory, the rich socialist pats the workers head whilst sipping the finest wines from an area only the very wealthy could live, at least a tory bastard will tell you straight he is a bastard.

 

what a optimist you are seeing bad in everyone..I personally love the liberal elite

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[Barry Sanchez]

what a optimist you are seeing bad in everyone..I personally love the liberal elite

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

Good for you, who do you admire from the top echelon of overbearing patronising do gooders?

[aintforever]

Not at all. If I were a shopkeeper and somebody came in wearing a balaclava or a Zorro mask I would assume that they wanted to conceal their identity. The same would apply to anybody working behind a reception desk or in any position requiring regular contact with the public. There is a big difference between covering your hair with a scarf and completely obscuring your face.

 

So if some students came in dressed as Zorro on the way to a fancy dress party would you feel threatened?

[Barry Sanchez]

So if some students came in dressed as Zorro on the way to a fancy dress party would you feel threatened?

 

 

No because fancy dress is a given is this Country, how would you interview a person in a niqab? Would you give them a job if you did not know what they looked like?

[Whitey Grandad]

So if some students came in dressed as Zorro on the way to a fancy dress party would you feel threatened?

 

How would I know they were students? I would feel the same is students came in dressed as Muslim women.

[solentstars]

Good for you, who do you admire from the top echelon of overbearing patronising do gooders?

 

All of them has they all seem to be well educated and worldly unlike the conservative elite of boneheads:)

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2