Does your boyfriend know you're here?

[hypochondriac]

Any homophobic chanting is crass homophobic chanting.

 

Just wondered if you had an example of homophobic chanting that is frequently heard at the football.

[DuncanRG]

What happened when someone took your advice on board? Was this also about a homophobic comment or did he do something else out of order like call the ref blind or something?

 

It was stuff along the lines of 'get up you gay!', which he tended to yell when somebody got tackled. I asked why he was saying that; he didn't have an answer and stopped. Perhaps it was just to appease me, but still...

 

A lot of chants at football are intended to mock the opposing fans so why single out a, supposedly, homophobic one?

 

Diame is not, to my knowledge, gay so how is him being likened to a lump of gristly meat homophobic?

 

You are, again, kidding yourself if you don't think they were calling him gay and intending it as an insult.

 

I will happily single people out when they're mocking others on the basis of their race, religion, gender, sexuality etc. Some chants are based on other, acceptable, things, e.g. 'shall we sing a song for you?'

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[hypochondriac]

She was too far away but I'd have said something otherwise. Have done before.

 

 

 

Makes you wonder what fans will sing if Birmingham becomes a 'minority majority' city...

 

'Ha! You've got a lot of brown people!'

 

Are dirty northerner chants or sheep ****ger chants unacceptable at the football?

[Joensuu]

Just wondered if you had an example of homophobic chanting that is frequently heard at the football.

 

Have you ever been to a Brighton game?

[Big Bad Bob]

and how does David Beckham feel knowing that his wife likes sodomy?

[hypochondriac]

Have you ever been to a Brighton game?

 

I was curious to see what you considered to be homophobic chanting. Do you have some examples?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Fantastic Rainbow Laces campaign with @Paddypower and @stonewalluk.Footballers of the world unite #rbgf

 

[hypochondriac]

and how does David Beckham feel knowing that his wife likes sodomy?

 

And that she thinks of Brett whilst knobbing him.

[Tokyo-Saint]

and how does David Beckham feel knowing that his wife likes sodomy?

 

Apparently he doesn't mind.

 

 

To be fair, with this metro sexual type photoshoot, sarongs etc, Becks has done more for homosexuality being 'accepted' in football than any at stonewall.

[buctootim]

Have you ever been to a Brighton game?

 

The Brighton fans just think the opposition are unimaginative twots, thats all. .

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So because there are also other issues, or nasty chants, that means nothing should be done to tackle homophobia?

 

Do you actually think that in the history of English football, Justin Fashnau was the only gay player?

 

Is it really acceptable that no other person has ever felt able to come out - or that they should have to hide it?

[DuncanRG]

Are dirty northerner chants or sheep ****ger chants unacceptable at the football?

 

I certainly wouldn't partake in them, but they're not quite the same. I hate chants like 'sign on' because it seems to me like elite, affluent Southerners making fun of poor people who struggle to make ends meet*. Nationality is sort of different because it tends not to hit home like race, sexuality or socioeconomic status, and it's not aimed at an oppressed minority. I take personal interest in addressing the damage caused by imperialism and the North/South divide, though, so it particularly annoys me when people feed it.

 

*buctootim's point about paradoxes comes into play here.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[Joensuu]

I was curious to see what you considered to be homophobic chanting. Do you have some examples?

 

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

 

[Examples include any song, comment or chant that makes reference to the sexuality of a player or set of supporters. This includes any reference to boyfriends knowing about the presence of their partners, or holding of hands being conducted, or use of any other offensive term such as faggot etc.].

 

The apparent 'joke' behind such chants is that being gay is in some way a weakness that others can look down on, laugh about or pick on.

[Joensuu]

The Brighton fans just think the opposition are unimaginative twots, thats all. .

 

Absolutely. Unimaginative. Probably stupid, and all in all rather immature. The chants just serve to make anyone singing them look like an embarrassing uncle trying to dance.

 

BTW, Tim, what's happened to you. I seem to recall a few years back you were actually quite a good poster.

[hypochondriac]

So because there are also other issues, or nasty chants, that means nothing should be done to tackle homophobia

Do you have an example of this homophobia which is supposedly rife within football?

 

Do you actually think that in the history of English football, Justin Fashnau was the only gay player?

Probably not. No idea of the actual numbers

 

Is it really acceptable that no other person has ever felt able to come out - or that they should have to hide it?

Again I would say that is down to them. It is a shame that they feel unable to come out but I don't see how you can prove to someone that it would be fine for them to publicly announce their sexuality. Certainly coloured laces will not help.

[Tokyo-Saint]

I certainly wouldn't partake in them, but they're not quite the same. I hate chants like 'sign on' because it seems to me like elite, affluent Southerners making fun of poor people who struggle to make ends meet*. Nationality is sort of different because it tends not to hit home like race, sexuality or socioeconomic status, and it's not aimed at an oppressed minority. I take personal interest in addressing the damage caused by imperialism and the North/South divide, though, so it particularly annoys me when people feed it.

 

*buctootim's point about paradoxes comes into play here.

 

Would you tell some opposing fans i.e. pompey to "sit down shut up"? Or would this be rude?

[DuncanRG]

I don't see how you can prove to someone that it would be fine for them to publicly announce their sexuality. Certainly coloured laces will not help.

 

We'll see. We've learnt by now not to speculate what might happen without prior evidence

 

I'm going to sit out for a while, but this has been a good talk. Keep it up!

[buctootim]

Absolutely. Unimaginative. Probably stupid, and all in all rather immature. The chants just serve to make anyone singing them look like an embarrassing uncle trying to dance.

 

BTW, Tim, what's happened to you. I seem to recall a few years back you were actually quite a good poster.

 

So because we disagree on an issue I'm no longer any good. That's revealing about someone's thought processes, and its not mine.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Don't worry Tim, I still ♥ you V. much.

[Toon Saint]

That is 8 people which if we are taking your percentages and extrapolating it to professional footballers is a small percentage of gays in football. How do we not know that the rest are fine? As I said though, they don't want to come out because they are worried about anti-gay abuse, yet there is no evidence of this supposed abuse around at the moment. It appears that the problem is with them rather than the other way around if they are uncomfortable about hiding their sexuality yet do so anyway because they suspect with no evidence that they will be subject to abuse.

 

A victim of abuse, whether domestic, physical, mental, racial, homophobic, or sexual, is not always inclined to open up about their experiences if they perceive that their immediate environment is one that is hostile to them or won't take them seriously. There's been enough of this in the news recently in relation to historical claims of child abuse.

 

You seem to work from the assumption that if gay footballers aren't coming out and complaining about abuse then it doesn't exist. DuncanRG already posted the link about 8 gay footballers not wanting to 'come out' publicly because of the abuse that they fear, but still you dismiss the occurrence of homophobia in football based on lack of 'evidence'. Could it not be that the very social environment that gay footballers inhabit precludes them from telling others of the abuse that they face? Anecdotal accounts certainly point towards that.

 

You are simply willing the problem away as it confronts your own prejudices (which have been amply demonstrated).

 

I don't consider a joke (even an unfunny one) an example of homophobia. Certainly not an unfunny joke on an internet messageboard.

 

Of course you don't, but that's because you are ignorant and stupid.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by Toon Saint

[buctootim]

Don't worry Tim, I still ♥ you V. much.

 

You can undo my laces if you like Tokes.

[Joensuu]

Again I would say that is down to them. It is a shame that they feel unable to come out but I don't see how you can prove to someone that it would be fine for them to publicly announce their sexuality. Certainly coloured laces will not help.

 

If showing support and solidarity 'will not help', what do you suggest would be a better way for footballers to try to encourage fans to be more accepting of people's sexuality?

 

Should they do nothing (and ignore the anti-gay chants)?

[hypochondriac]

We'll see. We've learnt by now not to speculate what might happen without prior evidence

 

I'm going to sit out for a while, but this has been a good talk. Keep it up!

 

Thanks for being able to debate with civility unlike a few of the other posters who appear to have some repressed sexual feelings of their own.

[Joensuu]

So because we disagree on an issue I'm no longer any good. That's revealing about someone's thought processes, and its not mine.

 

No, no, not one issue. Unless I'm mistaken your views have become more conservative over the past few years. You used to take a more liberal line on any debate, but over the last 6 months of so I've noticed you starting to side with the WUMs.

[DuncanRG]

Thanks for being able to debate with civility unlike a few of the other posters who appear to have some repressed sexual feelings of their own.

 

Thanks, though I do wish you'd follow my example.

[hypochondriac]

I certainly wouldn't partake in them, but they're not quite the same. I hate chants like 'sign on' because it seems to me like elite, affluent Southerners making fun of poor people who struggle to make ends meet*. Nationality is sort of different because it tends not to hit home like race, sexuality or socioeconomic status, and it's not aimed at an oppressed minority. I take personal interest in addressing the damage caused by imperialism and the North/South divide, though, so it particularly annoys me when people feed it.

 

*buctootim's point about paradoxes comes into play here.

 

What about chanting paedo at westwood? Or wotsit on his head? What about whose the slapper in the pink when we played millwall? Or he's got bigger tits than you when the two fatties squared up a few season back? How do we find out what is and isn't acceptable to chant?

[hypochondriac]

Thanks, though I do wish you'd follow my example.

 

Don't think I have insulted you really, just made a few jokes on a messageboard and also tried to put across my own point of view. Toon saint is the worst example.

[Sour Mash]

It was stuff along the lines of 'get up you gay!', which he tended to yell when somebody got tackled. I asked why he was saying that; he didn't have an answer and stopped. Perhaps it was just to appease me, but still...

 

 

 

You are, again, kidding yourself if you don't think they were calling him gay and intending it as an insult.

 

I will happily single people out when they're mocking others on the basis of their race, religion, gender, sexuality etc. Some chants are based on other, acceptable, things, e.g. 'shall we sing a song for you?'

Unless people are actually being threatening to others, does it really matter is they take the p**s out of anyone? Why do you only limit it to race/religion/gender/sexuality? Why not physical appearance? Playing ability? Hair colour? Nationality? Being from Portsmouth? What about the Redknapp songs?

[hypochondriac]

If showing support and solidarity 'will not help', what do you suggest would be a better way for footballers to try to encourage fans to be more accepting of people's sexuality?

 

Should they do nothing (and ignore the anti-gay chants)?

 

I don't think there are any anti-gay chants. There are anti-Brighton chants aimed at poking fun at a stereotypical trait of a city.

[Toon Saint]

Thanks for being able to debate with civility unlike a few of the other posters who appear to have some repressed sexual feelings of their own.

 

Yes, it's likely that someone openly standing up for gay rights in football is more repressed than a man obsessed with making gay jokes on a message board and denying all existence of homophobia.

 

You should read some of Jonathan Dollimore's work on the 'perverse dynamic' - I think it captures you perfectly darling

[hypochondriac]

No, no, not one issue. Unless I'm mistaken your views have become more conservative over the past few years. You used to take a more liberal line on any debate, but over the last 6 months of so I've noticed you starting to side with the WUMs.

 

Odd that you would pigeon-hole views that differ from your own (conservative) as being from WUMs. It says much about your mentality...

[Joensuu]

What about chanting paedo at westwood? Or wotsit on his head? What about whose the slapper in the pink when we played millwall? Or he's got bigger tits than you when the two fatties squared up a few season back? How do we find out what is and isn't acceptable to chant?

 

Good question, that applies equally to any form of communication - and often people overstep the mark of acceptability. I think its perfectly fine to joke about things people have chosen to do, but not about things they have not choice over.

 

For example, Westwood has chosen to be an @rsehole. Anyone with an ego the size of his needs knocking down a peg or 3. Whereas, chanting about someone having ginger hair, when they haven't chosen that fate, is, well not very funny. If you are singing about a fat person who is just watching the game peacefully, then I feel you are out of line. But if two large people start swinging punches, then they deserve a ribbing.

[buctootim]

No, no, not one issue. Unless I'm mistaken your views have become more conservative over the past few years. You used to take a more liberal line on any debate, but over the last 6 months of so I've noticed you starting to side with the WUMs.

 

 

My views haven't changed. I'm anti meaningless gesture politics - especially when they actually damage the issue they supposedly are trying to advance. More focus on house building, equitable distribution of wealth and measures related to quality of life - less on attempting to engineer what people read / say / think / do. Thats me.

[hypochondriac]

Yes, it's likely that someone openly standing up for gay rights in football is more repressed than a man obsessed with making gay jokes on a message board and denying all existence of homophobia.

 

You should read some of Jonathan Dollimore's work on the 'perverse dynamic' - I think it captures you perfectly darling

 

Eh? I made a couple of jokes on a thread about homosexuality. I also made a couple of jokes about people who wear burkhas today but I'm not obsessed with it. Odd thing to say. I didn't deny that homophobia exists (note the reply above where I said that saying faggot is clearly unacceptable) I just don't think there is a higher amount of it in football than in normal society.

[DuncanRG]

Unless people are actually being threatening to others, does it really matter is they take the p**s out of anyone? Why do you only limit it to race/religion/gender/sexuality? Why not physical appearance? Playing ability? Hair colour? Nationality? Being from Portsmouth? What about the Redknapp songs?

 

Some feed wider systems of oppression - racism, sexism, homophobia - which have further reaching and infinitely more damaging consequences for those affected. Others, though not related to such systems, can be deeply personal - which is why you don't get chants mocking Stilyan Petrov's cancer, and why Billy Sharp might be called fat but won't be mocked for the death of his unborn child. We draw those lines ourselves, but I think some, such as homophobia and classism, need to be shifted.

 

But that's genuinely it now! Can't stay away from you lot, can I...

[Joensuu]

I don't think there are any anti-gay chants. There are anti-Brighton chants aimed at poking fun at a stereotypical trait of a city.

 

I'm sure the intent of the joke is to annoy Brighton fans (it doesn't work btw - they are proud of how liberal their city is). However, the 'jokes' are still anti-gay, whether you deem them to be or not. The way the chants works is that stupid people feel that it is in some way offensive to be called gay, so try to undermine others by calling them gay. This of course only works if the person telling the joke, actually thinks that being gay is worse in some way that being straight. Hence, the chants are anti-gay.

[hypochondriac]

Good question, that applies equally to any form of communication - and often people overstep the mark of acceptability. I think its perfectly fine to joke about things people have chosen to do, but not about things they have not choice over.

 

For example, Westwood has chosen to be an @rsehole. Anyone with an ego the size of his needs knocking down a peg or 3. Whereas, chanting about someone having ginger hair, when they haven't chosen that fate, is, well not very funny. If you are singing about a fat person who is just watching the game peacefully, then I feel you are out of line. But if two large people start swinging punches, then they deserve a ribbing.

 

But what does them being fat have to do with them having a penchant for a punch up? Maybe it is glandular and they cannot help it. So is wotsit on his head not acceptable then? Would you consider it as unacceptable as does your boyfriend know you're here? What about the Kevin Phillips chants? He couldn't help his girlfriend cheating on him. Are let him die chants acceptable? or she fell over? What about shooting pompey scum or the one the skate sing about hitting scummers with bricks?

[Joensuu]

My views haven't changed. I'm anti meaningless gesture politics - especially when they actually damage the issue they supposedly are trying to advance. More focus on house building, equitable distribution of wealth and measures related to quality of life - less on attempting to engineer what people read / say / think / do. Thats me.

 

Fair enough, perhaps I've just caught you on a few of too many social issue discussions, and there haven't been enough threads about redistribution of late then.

[hypochondriac]

I'm sure the intent of the joke is to annoy Brighton fans (it doesn't work btw - they are proud of how liberal their city is). However, the 'jokes' are still anti-gay, whether you deem them to be or not. The way the chants works is that stupid people feel that it is in some way offensive to be called gay, so try to undermine others by calling them gay. This of course only works if the person telling the joke, actually thinks that being gay is worse in some way that being straight. Hence, the chants are anti-gay.

 

So when we sing dirty northern b*stards is that not the same thing?

[Joensuu]

But what does them being fat have to do with them having a penchant for a punch up? Maybe it is glandular and they cannot help it. So is wotsit on his head not acceptable then? Would you consider it as unacceptable as does your boyfriend know you're here? What about the Kevin Phillips chants? He couldn't help his girlfriend cheating on him. Are let him die chants acceptable? or she fell over? What about shooting pompey scum or the one the skate sing about hitting scummers with bricks?

 

It has nothing to do with them being fat, but they have made a decision to single themselves out by fighting - so IMO they become fairer targets for jokes. It's simple, if you choose to do something stupid, like say support Pompey, you should expect some stick. If you are being given stick for something you have no choice over (such as being black, gay, ginger, female or having your wife cheat on you), then the chanting isn't warranted.

[hypochondriac]

It has nothing to do with them being fat, but they have made a decision to single themselves out by fighting - so IMO they become fairer targets for jokes. It's simple, if you choose to do something stupid, like say support Pompey, you should expect some stick. If you are being given stick for something you have no choice over (such as being black, gay, ginger, female or having your wife cheat on you), then the chanting isn't warranted.

 

OK so if an overtly gay supporter singles themselves out by fighting or mugging the opposition fans off is it then acceptable to chant about their feminine appearance or the fact they are holding a man's hand (if that is what they are doing.)

[Joensuu]

So when we sing dirty northern b*stards is that not the same thing?

 

If someone has chosen to dirty, irrespective of where they live, or the promiscuity of they parents, surely they deserve to be laughed at for their lack of personal hygiene?

[Jonnyboy]

Without any openly gay players we cannot draw from experience, but at least seven players have reason to believe it would happen. You'd have to ask them. The point of this campaign is to prove that it won't happen, and that football supports them.

 

You may, however, want to look at the chants Brighton and Hove Albion get every week, the reaction to rumours of homosexuality surrounding players like Matt Taylor and Graeme Le Saux, and reports of clubs encouraging players to stay quiet to maintain marketability.

 

The marketability could be a big part of it. Countries in the Middle East, Russia, Indonesia etc must buy a lot of Prem shirts and watch a lot of advert dollar rich Prem TV.

[Tokyo-Saint]

What about people that are addicted to corn syrup through no fault of their own? Have you not seen the men who made us fat?

[hypochondriac]

If someone has chosen to dirty, irrespective of where they live, or the promiscuity of they parents, surely they deserve to be laughed at for their lack of personal hygiene?

 

Good point.

[hypochondriac]

Yes, it's likely that someone openly standing up for gay rights in football is more repressed than a man obsessed with making gay jokes on a message board and denying all existence of homophobia.

 

You should read some of Jonathan Dollimore's work on the 'perverse dynamic' - I think it captures you perfectly darling

 

What is your favourite Madonna album Toon Saint?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussdmwks_h8

[Toon Saint]

Eh? I made a couple of jokes on a thread about homosexuality. I also made a couple of jokes about people who wear burkhas today but I'm not obsessed with it. Odd thing to say. I didn't deny that homophobia exists (note the reply above where I said that saying faggot is clearly unacceptable) I just don't think there is a higher amount of it in football than in normal society.

 

Oh, I'm glad you are so generous with your prejudice. It's a lie to say you have made a 'couple' of jokes when we both know you are probably in double figures, and I've noticed you trolling ART about being gay before on other threads...so you clearly have form.

 

Don't get so rattled just because we are now talking about your fascination with the subject. It's nice to hear that you agree with the use of the word faggot, are you coming round?

[Joensuu]

OK so if an overtly gay supporter singles themselves out by fighting or mugging the opposition fans off is it then acceptable to chant about their feminine appearance or the fact they are holding a man's hand (if that is what they are doing.)

 

Yes, if you act like a prat, you're fair game for stick IMO. Although I'd still be against ever bringing race or sexuality into your arsenal (irrespective of the behavior of the other individual). You see the fat person almost certainly has some amount of choice in their weight, whereas the gay person doesn't (and how can you tell their sexuality anyhow?)

Edited 17 September, 2013 by Joensuu

[Toon Saint]

What is your favourite Madonna album Toon Saint?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussdmwks_h8

 

You can call me gay all you like but please don't ever call me a f^cking Madonna fan.

[Turkish]

I'm sure the intent of the joke is to annoy Brighton fans (it doesn't work btw - they are proud of how liberal their city is). However, the 'jokes' are still anti-gay, whether you deem them to be or not. The way the chants works is that stupid people feel that it is in some way offensive to be called gay, so try to undermine others by calling them gay. This of course only works if the person telling the joke, actually thinks that being gay is worse in some way that being straight. Hence, the chants are anti-gay.

 

SO yet again it's other people being offended on behalf of people.

 

How do you fuction on a day to day basis mate? You seem to spend your whole life offended at what other people might be offended at.