Does your boyfriend know you're here?

[DuncanRG]

When players are pelted with butt plugs and told to get out of a club for being gay, then you can compare it to racism in football. As yet, no one has actually come out so we can only speculate on the reaction of supporters and clubs. My suspicion is that there would be a very small number of chants at first from a tiny minority and then they would cease.

 

I agree that homophobia is not as damaging or widespread in football as racism once was. Crucially though, your suspicion doesn't seem to be shared by gay footballers.

[hypochondriac]

My 'blind narrow minded mind'? I found your premise that homosexual men do not possess the adequate genetic make up to become professional sportsmen or footballers completely objectionable. Anton Hysen, son of former Liverpool player Glenn Hysen, is gay and plays professional football in Sweden. How does your theory follow there?

 

I'd suggest that gay men have been socialised into pursuing other interests and hobbies because they feel excluded from competitive sport environments, a culture reinforced by a lot of the prejudice evidenced on this thread.

 

Surely you indicate some sort of genetic deficiency as in effect you are suggesting that gay persons do not possess the genetic fabric, whether physically or mentally, to become eminent in sporting fields?

 

As I said before, mixing eugenicist theories with sexual politics has some pretty terrible historical precedents, especially when couched in the language of scientific neutrality and impartiality that you so carefully replicate. I'd suggest you read up on them before accusing me of having a 'narrow-minded mind'.

 

He didn't say that. He proposed a theory (using examples) that said that genetics have a bearing on how successful a group is at sport. He said that homosexuals differ genetically from straight people and that this genetic difference could also mean that they were not as genetically disposed towards football as a straight man. You may not agree but I can't see how that is offensive.

[hypochondriac]

I agree that homophobia is not as damaging or widespread in football as racism once was. Crucially though, your suspicion doesn't seem to be shared by gay footballers.

 

I presume you have conducted interviews with these gay footballers to determine their reasons for keeping quiet about their sexuality?

[DuncanRG]

I've read interviews with the few who have come out, understood their best guesses, understood alternative explanations and used it all to come to a conclusion.

 

I'd also like to note a change in my perception that's come about from the discussion over the last few pages. We've been talking about movements being the product of changed attitudes rather than the cause of them; perhaps that's what the campaign is about. Perhaps English football has reached a point where gay footballers are safe to come out and Stonewall are trying to prove it.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[buctootim]

Was that gradual change not led of pushed along by people? What natural force is changing these things?

 

For generations the American south had seen black people as slaves or the children of slaves. The flow of educated middle class black people from the north and the growth in availability of tv and radio forced am exposure to how other people did things and a change of mindset. Of course MLK had a role because he was eloquent likeable and moderate. If Malcolm X had been the primary face you might have seen a different outcome.

[Bearsy]

who are the ones who are out? srsly, i'm interest! no trolls pls

[DuncanRG]

who are the ones who are out? srsly, i'm interest! no trolls pls

 

Robbie Rogers and Justin Fashanu are the only British players to have done so.

[JN9]

I presume you have conducted interviews with these gay footballers to determine their reasons for keeping quiet about their sexuality?

 

I'm pretty sure there was one conducted by Sky Sports with the lad who now plays for LA Galaxy who stated the reasons why he quit football before coming out. He also added that he didn't feel like he could play football in this country as well as being an openly gay footballer.

 

Now rightly or wrongly, this is how he felt. Surely you can't be against any movement that makes people like him more accepted and able to live life just as his hetrosexual colleagues do?

[Big Bad Bob]

Surely the chanting 'Does Your Boyfriend Know You're Here?' chant is homophobic, even if only mildly... A player was being singled out because of his (presumed) homosexuality. This (to me anyway) is just as bad as people singling someone out because of their ethnic origin.

 

Not directed at a player or a person in particular, the chant is directed at the Brighton fans and given that they live in an area that is perceived to contain a majority of LGTB it could be argued that it is a perfectly valid question.

[Bearsy]

Robbie Rogers and Justin Fashanu are the only British players to have done so.

 

oh yeah i've heard of the fashanu, he killed himself innit. I will have to googles robbie rogers, who is he play for?

 

Edit: oh he is merican.

 

When i googles i found this tho:

Clarke Carlisle, chairman of the Professional Footballers' Association, revealed that eight players had approached him to disclose that they were gay.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by Bearsy

[DuncanRG]

'Eight footballers say 'we're gay' but keep quiet in fear of fans'

 

"Gay campaigners told the Observer that Clarke Carlisle, chairman of the Professional Footballers' Association, had revealed that eight players had approached him to disclose that they were gay. Seven told him that the reason they would not reveal their sexual orientation publicly was not the reaction from the dressing room or club, but the potential reaction from the media and supporters."

 

"Stonewall, the gay charity, has conducted research finding that 60% of supporters believe that anti-gay abuse from fans dissuades players from coming out."

[hypochondriac]

I've read interviews with the few who have come out, understood their best guesses, understood alternative explanations and used it all to come to a conclusion.

 

I'd also like to note a change in my perception that's come about from the discussion over the last few pages. We've been talking about movements being the product of changed attitudes rather than the cause of them; perhaps that's what the campaign is about. Perhaps English football has reached a point where gay footballers are safe to come out and Stonewall are trying to prove it.

 

Why do they feel the need to? Why do they want to create a divide between the gay footballers who like rainbow laces and the straight footballers?

[hypochondriac]

No, your own prejudiced comments have confirmed that.

 

Such as?

[DuncanRG]

Why do they feel the need to? Why do they want to create a divide between the gay footballers who like rainbow laces and the straight footballers?

 

They're inviting straight footballers to wear them as a sign of solidarity. Not because gay players like rainbow laces (though you, of course, know that and just wanted to make a joke at homosexuals' expense) but because the rainbow is an international symbol for gay rights and gay pride.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[hypochondriac]

I'm pretty sure there was one conducted by Sky Sports with the lad who now plays for LA Galaxy who stated the reasons why he quit football before coming out. He also added that he didn't feel like he could play football in this country as well as being an openly gay footballer.

 

Now rightly or wrongly, this is how he felt. Surely you can't be against any movement that makes people like him more accepted and able to live life just as his hetrosexual colleagues do?

 

And how many are there like him who feels the way he does? He is one person. And how are rainbow laces a movement that makes him more accepted? Where is the example of him not being accepted within football?

[hypochondriac]

'Eight footballers say 'we're gay' but keep quiet in fear of fans'

 

"Gay campaigners told the Observer that Clarke Carlisle, chairman of the Professional Footballers' Association, had revealed that eight players had approached him to disclose that they were gay. Seven told him that the reason they would not reveal their sexual orientation publicly was not the reaction from the dressing room or club, but the potential reaction from the media and supporters."

 

"Stonewall, the gay charity, has conducted research finding that 60% of supporters believe that anti-gay abuse from fans dissuades players from coming out."

 

Where is the example of this anti-gay abuse? I would suggest that if they believe in this anti-gay abuse without any evidence, then they are the ones with the problem.

[hypochondriac]

They're inviting straight footballers to wear them as a sign of solidarity. Not because gay players like rainbow laces (though you, of course, know that and just wanted to make a joke at homosexuals' expense) but because the rainbow is an international symbol for gay rights and gay pride.

 

Why rainbow laces? Isnt that a bit stereotypical and offensive?

[DuncanRG]

Because the rainbow is an international symbol for gay rights and gay pride.

[hypochondriac]

They're inviting straight footballers to wear them as a sign of solidarity. Not because gay players like rainbow laces (though you, of course, know that and just wanted to make a joke at homosexuals' expense) but because the rainbow is an international symbol for gay rights and gay pride.

 

Solidarity against what? anti-gay abuse? Where is the example of this anti-gay abuse?

[DuncanRG]

Without any openly gay players we cannot draw from experience, but at least seven players have reason to believe it would happen. You'd have to ask them. The point of this campaign is to prove that it won't happen, and that football supports them.

 

You may, however, want to look at the chants Brighton and Hove Albion get every week, the reaction to rumours of homosexuality surrounding players like Matt Taylor and Graeme Le Saux, and reports of clubs encouraging players to stay quiet to maintain marketability.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[buctootim]

Without any openly gay players we cannot draw from experience, but at least seven players have reason to believe it would happen. You'd have to ask them. The point of this campaign is to prove that it won't happen, and that football supports them.

 

Why do they need special support? Why not just do it like the first black player, the first female official, the first player as oddly built as Crouch etc

[hypochondriac]

Without any openly gay players we cannot draw from experience, but at least seven players have reason to believe it would happen. You'd have to ask them. The point of this campaign is to prove that it won't happen, and that football supports them.

 

Well we can't ask them can we. I don't think wearing rainbow laces will prove that at all and if someone suddenly decides to make their sexuality known to the world (not sure why they would need to) on the back of this then it's clearly not something they take that seriously. The only way we will be able to say if it will or will not happen is for a footballer who is gay to decide to tell everyone and then see what happens. No amount of rainbow coloured sweatbands, laces or other rubbish is going to change anything it just irks football fans for saying there is a problem when in many people's opinion one does not exist to any greater extent than in wider society.

[DuncanRG]

Why do they need special support? Why not just do it like the first black player, the first female official, the first player as oddly built as Crouch etc

 

Who knows? In the absence of an individual as brave as John Barnes or Benjamin Odeje we need to think of something else.

 

EDIT: though I may speculate that part of it is the fact that black footballers and female officials can't do the job at all without revealing their race or gender.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[Bearsy]

Who knows? In the absence of an individual as brave as John Barnes we need to think of something else.

 

he had my massive respect when he came out as black

[buctootim]

he had my massive respect when he came out as black

 

Yeah but Im disappointed he bottled coming out as gay.

[hypochondriac]

Who knows? In the absence of an individual as brave as John Barnes or Benjamin Odeje we need to think of something else.

 

How about not highlighting it as a huge problem (when it isn't) and just letting people do what they feel comfortable doing (which at the moment appears to be keeping their sexuality private). That seems like a worthwhile something else to do.

[Toon Saint]

Well we can't ask them can we. I don't think wearing rainbow laces will prove that at all and if someone suddenly decides to make their sexuality known to the world (not sure why they would need to) on the back of this then it's clearly not something they take that seriously. The only way we will be able to say if it will or will not happen is for a footballer who is gay to decide to tell everyone and then see what happens. No amount of rainbow coloured sweatbands, laces or other rubbish is going to change anything it just irks football fans for saying there is a problem when in many people's opinion one does not exist to any greater extent than in wider society.

 

You've spent most of this thread making unfunny jokes about gay people, and then you have the temerity to tell us that there is no problem with homophobia in football. Why don't you show some consistency in what you say for once?

[DuncanRG]

How about not highlighting it as a huge problem (when it isn't) and just letting people do what they feel comfortable doing (which at the moment appears to be keeping their sexuality private).

 

Nope, nope, nope nope nope. Go back to the Guardian article and read about the eight players who approached a gay rights group about it. They're not comfortable.

[Bearsy]

You've spent most of this thread making unfunny jokes

 

I've got one more bout the role black laces played in the fight against racism and then i will leave this thread alone! I think we've all learned some important things bout gays in football. I am v.proud of saintsweb for the mature + intellectual way this issue has been debated. Well done saintsweb!

[Bearsy]

does abandoning black laces mean the fight against racism is over? Or is this complacency?

[buctootim]

does abandoning black laces mean the fight against racism is over? Or is this complacency?

 

Times move on Bearsy. Im waiting for the scratch and sniff laces in support of Syria.

[hypochondriac]

Nope, nope, nope nope nope. Go back to the Guardian article and read about the eight players who approached a gay rights group about it. They're not comfortable.

 

That is 8 people which if we are taking your percentages and extrapolating it to professional footballers is a small percentage of gays in football. How do we not know that the rest are fine? As I said though, they don't want to come out because they are worried about anti-gay abuse, yet there is no evidence of this supposed abuse around at the moment. It appears that the problem is with them rather than the other way around if they are uncomfortable about hiding their sexuality yet do so anyway because they suspect with no evidence that they will be subject to abuse.

[hypochondriac]

You've spent most of this thread making unfunny jokes about gay people, and then you have the temerity to tell us that there is no problem with homophobia in football. Why don't you show some consistency in what you say for once?

 

I don't consider a joke (even an unfunny one) an example of homophobia. Certainly not an unfunny joke on an internet messageboard. I'm not hurling abuse near the doorway of G.A.Y. or burning rainbow laces. You've spent most of the thread getting offended on behalf of other people (unless you are gay yourself but you declined to answer) and then looking for homophobia where none can be found.

[DuncanRG]

That is 8 people which if we are taking your percentages and extrapolating it to professional footballers is a small percentage of gays in football. How do we not know that the rest are fine? As I said though, they don't want to come out because they are worried about anti-gay abuse, yet there is no evidence of this supposed abuse around at the moment. It appears that the problem is with them rather than the other way around if they are uncomfortable about hiding their sexuality yet do so anyway because they suspect with no evidence that they will be subject to abuse.

 

Okay. If we suppose the problem is with them, and it's no more complex than that, then all that needs to happen is football to prove that there's nothing to worry about. Widely adopting this sign of support, however trivial you think it may be, is one way of doing that. Posting on an internet forum opposing the campaign, and making all sorts of homophobic comments along the way, is not.

 

Read this collection of facts, ideas and articles for an idea of what evidence does exist. Check the sources if you think it's unreliable.

[Big Bad Bob]

You may, however, want to look at the chants Brighton and Hove Albion get every week, the reaction to rumours of homosexuality surrounding players like Matt Taylor and Graeme Le Saux, and reports of clubs encouraging players to stay quiet to maintain marketability.

 

I was going to ask you about la Saux yesterday but work got in the way! To be honest I'd forgotten the rumours about Matt Taylor and to be fair he gets dogs abuse because he's an ex-Skate!

 

I don't remember any reaction from the terraces to Graham la Saux's or Matt Taylor's rumoured sexuality, none. Not even screams of "get up you faggot" when they've been tackled. So where is this perceived homophobia coming from?

 

As for the chant thrown at Brighton fans, it's a perfectly valid question given the demographic of the area they come from, maybe instead of getting all offended they could throw back "Does your WAG know you're here?". Or are we not allowed to sign "sign on" to the Everton and Liverpool fans.

 

In my mind the whole "English football fan is homophobic" argument is coming from the fact that Brighton fans are chanted at, nothing more.

 

Going back to the PFA statement that players fear the reaction from the media and the fans I would strongly suggest that they are more afraid of being made a Champion for the Gay rights movement. Isn't there a heterosexual sports star who is lauded as a Gay icon by the LGBT movement. Can't remember who it is or whether I'm making it up...

[Bearsy]

Read this collection of facts, ideas and articles for an idea of what evidence does exist.

 

"'Where do you go if you want a loaf of bread?' I asked him. 'A baker's, I suppose.' 'Where do you go if you want a leg of lamb?' 'A butcher's.' 'So why do you keep going to that bloody poofs' club?"'. Fashanu committed suicide

 

 

Edit - the homophobias isn't funny it's the way that they've put Fashanu committed suicide like it was in response to that question.

[DuncanRG]

You are well beyond kidding yourself if you think people chant these things at Brighton fans as a 'genuine question'. It's intended to mock them.

 

I don't remember any reaction from the terraces to Graham la Saux's or Matt Taylor's rumoured sexuality, none. Not even screams of "get up you faggot" when they've been tackled. So where is this perceived homophobia coming from?

 

I actually heard those exact words on Sunday when Mohamed Diame was on the floor.

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[Tokyo-Saint]

Do you think that when the first premier league player comes out as being gay he will be disappointed when no one cares?

[DuncanRG]

No.

 

EDIT: Graeme Le Saux - How gay slurs almost wrecked my career

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[Tokyo-Saint]

I actually heard those exact words on Sunday when Mohamed Diame was on the floor.

 

What did you say to the raging homophobe?

[Bearsy]

nice avatar tokyos!

[Joensuu]

By all means defend the right to make jokes about any subject - that's something we should all support. However, when the joke is discriminatory against any minority group it's simply not funny. I can only assume that those defending crass homophobic chanting, find Michael Mcintyre high brow?

[hypochondriac]

You are well beyond kidding yourself if you think people chant these things at Brighton fans as a 'genuine question'. It's intended to mock them.

 

 

 

I actually heard those exact words on Sunday when Mohamed Diame was on the floor.

 

It's taking a well known steretype about their city (that there are a lot of gays there) and is poking fun at it, the same as the welsh are sheep ****gers, those from the north are dirty northern monkeys, liverpool fans are scouse scallys etc etc.

[DuncanRG]

What did you say to the raging homophobe?

 

She was too far away but I'd have said something otherwise. Have done before.

 

It's taking a well known steretype about their city (that there are a lot of gays there) and is poking fun at it, the same as the welsh are sheep ****gers, those from the north are dirty northern monkeys, liverpool fans are scouse scallys etc etc.

 

Makes you wonder what fans will sing if Birmingham becomes a 'minority majority' city...

 

'Ha! You've got a lot of brown people!'

Edited 17 September, 2013 by DuncanRG

[Tokyo-Saint]

nice avatar tokyos!

 

Thanks bear. Sometimes I get the feeling that me and you are the only ones that truely care.

 

She was too far away but I'd have said something otherwise. Have done before. Someone even took it on board once!

 

So you could hear her but she wouldn't have been able to hear you? Load wench! This is typical of them.

 

What happened when someone took your advice on board? Was this also about a homophobic comment or did he do something else out of order like call the ref blind or something?

[hypochondriac]

I think part of the fun for some supporters of chanting at people like Le Saux is that it is alluded to but never explicit (not that that makes it right), in the same way that Beckham or Kevin Phillips was chanted at for alleged affairs. If he had actually come out as gay I don't think there would have been any noteworthy anti gay chanting

[hypochondriac]

By all means defend the right to make jokes about any subject - that's something we should all support. However, when the joke is discriminatory against any minority group it's simply not funny. I can only assume that those defending crass homophobic chanting, find Michael Mcintyre high brow?

 

What is the example of crass homophobic chanting?

[Big Bad Bob]

You are well beyond kidding yourself if you think people chant these things at Brighton fans as a 'genuine question'. It's intended to mock them.

 

I actually heard those exact words on Sunday when Mohamed Diame was on the floor.

 

A lot of chants at football are intended to mock the opposing fans so why single out a, supposedly, homophobic one?

 

Diame is not, to my knowledge, gay so how is him being likened to a lump of gristly meat homophobic?

[Joensuu]

What is the example of crass homophobic chanting?

 

Any homophobic chanting is crass homophobic chanting.

[hypochondriac]

You are well beyond kidding yourself if you think people chant these things at Brighton fans as a 'genuine question'. It's intended to mock them.

 

 

 

I actually heard those exact words on Sunday when Mohamed Diame was on the floor.

 

I don't think that should be used at the football and is clearly offensive. That says more about that individual than football fans in general and I certainly don't think it is more than in normal society.