Does your boyfriend know you're here?

[Toon Saint]

Is this homophobic?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC8QtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DoZn3XMGZMDk&ei=Yjs3UprAGIPFtQbX0YGgDw&usg=AFQjCNF4jUauaqWnu2ypgiCOSjeNbGDT6g&bvm=bv.52164340,d.Yms

 

What has this got to do with football and homophobia? If you are interested in the relationship between comedy and social prejudice then perhaps you should have a read of this:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2011/feb/05/top-gear-offensive-steve-coogan

 

The reason the Patridge clip works is because it actually illuminates some of the ridiculousness and hypocrisy of British conservatism. Coogan recognises that and uses the Partridge character as a vehicle to do so, but I'm not so sure the likes of Gervais, who uses 'gay' as shorthand for crap, recognises that function of comedy.

 

All your tired schoolboy guffaws suggest that you don't either, which really means that the real joke is on you.

[orchardsaint]

One of the most, if not the most idiotic posts I have ever read on here.

 

Why are you comparing a hypothetical structural/socio-economic issue (i.e. Indian footballers not being good enough to play in the EPL) with a biological/cultural one (there might not be any gay footballers playing because they haven't come out)?

 

Whatever method you use of measuring the frequency of homosexuality, the fact is that gay men and women (however historically or culturally 'defined') have existed throughout human history and continue to make up a sizeable minority of our population.

 

Why do you think they would not be involved in football or play it? I know gay people who play and watch football on a regular basis. You only have to look at people like Steven Fry and Elton John, as gay celebrity fans/directors, to suggest that English football isn't the last bastion of male 'straightness' that you so obviously crave it to be.

 

Do you not think that gay footballers might have a hard time 'coming out' because of the wider ignorance and prejudices of fans and players? Your a priori assumption that all footballers are straight and that a gay man wouldn't be interested in competitive sport hardly makes for an accepting climate does it?

 

Clearly you either didn't read it or just didn't like the argument so got back on your high horse. I didn't say gay men aren't interested in football, and am not saying that there are no gay footballers, just that because no one says they are gay doesn't mean someone is. An the proportion of people in a test cannot be blown up to say there must be gay men in football, because one in fifty men are. There are probably many things in this country that 1 in 50 people are, but you don't find in football. That is called averaging it out, more in one section than another.

[LGTL]

The spokesman for the gays on Sky Sports News was called "Sam Dick".

 

It appealed to my immaturity anyway.

[Bearsy]

There are probably many things in this country that 1 in 50 people are, but you don't find in football.

 

ok let's brainstorm! Virgins! Clinically obese! Intellectuals! Down's Syndromes! Blind people! erm... Poor people! Midgets!

[Whitey Grandad]

This is pretty much the gay equivalent of "I'm not racist, but...".

 

What is 'it' you don't want rammed down your throat?

 

What gay person has ever tried to ram anything down your throat?

 

Shame Saints aren't doing much on this issue. Homophobia, like racism has no place in society, let alone football.

 

Don't really get those that say football is an open-minded cross section of society, it clearly isn't.

 

Football can be a really positive influence, so yes, football clubs absolutely should take the lead.

 

Whether rainbow laces is the way to go or not is debatable, but it's something at least.

 

As I said, I don't care about anybody's sexuality. What I don't like are the constant references to it in the media. So your gay, so what? I don't go around telling everybody my sexual preferences but being gay seems to be a dominant topic amongst the chattering classes.

[hypochondriac]

As I said, I don't care about anybody's sexuality. What I don't like are the constant references to it in the media. So your gay, so what? I don't go around telling everybody my sexual preferences but being gay seems to be a dominant topic amongst the chattering classes.

 

Plus the string vests make it a bit too in your face for my liking.

[Toon Saint]

It might be that gay men aren't very good at football, don't like football or just don't want to play.

 

 

Clearly you either didn't read it or just didn't like the argument so got back on your high horse. I didn't say gay men aren't interested in football, and am not saying that there are no gay footballers, just that because no one says they are gay doesn't mean someone is. An the proportion of people in a test cannot be blown up to say there must be gay men in football, because one in fifty men are. There are probably many things in this country that 1 in 50 people are, but you don't find in football. That is called averaging it out, more in one section than another.

 

High horse or not, I do not care; your argument just isn't credible. Loathe as I am to reduce gay people to a statistic, if there are 550+ registered footballers to play in the Premier League, then just a percentage of those (incidentally well below the 6% identifying as gay in Britain) that would amount to 5 gay footballers in the top tier of English football.

 

In what way does denying the existence of gay men in football help the matter? You don't even acknowledge that it might be cultural prejudice (such as your own) that is deterring them from disclosing their sexuality. And in saying that they might not be good enough, might not like football, or just don't wan't to play, you are repeating some pretty lazy stereotypes associating gay men with effeminacy and a lack of interest in sport.

 

If you had opined that gay men are less likely to participate in professional football leagues because they do not want to adhere to a macho straight culture and/or that they risk being bullied by their peers, then you might make a decent point.

 

In my eyes all you've said is that there might not be any gay people in football because they haven't come out - effectively you are just whitewashing over the potential for any prejudice in the sport.

 

I hope I'm not the only one who sees that as pretty ignorant.

[orchardsaint]

High horse or not, I do not care; your argument just isn't credible. Loathe as I am to reduce gay people to a statistic, if there are 550+ registered footballers to play in the Premier League, then just a percentage of those (incidentally well below the 6% identifying as gay in Britain) that would amount to 5 gay footballers in the top tier of English football.

 

In what way does denying the existence of gay men in football help the matter? You don't even acknowledge that it might be cultural prejudice (such as your own) that is deterring them from disclosing their sexuality. And in saying that they might not be good enough, might not like football, or just don't wan't to play, you are repeating some pretty lazy stereotypes associating gay men with effeminacy and a lack of interest in sport.

 

If you had opined that gay men are less likely to participate in professional football leagues because they do not want to adhere to a macho straight culture and/or that they risk being bullied by their peers, then you might make a decent point.

 

In my eyes all you've said is that there might not be any gay people in football because they haven't come out - effectively you are just whitewashing over the potential for any prejudice in the sport.

 

I hope I'm not the only one who sees that as pretty ignorant.

 

You still aren't reading it without your rose tinted gay glasses. I am saying that you cannot say because of statistics it means there are gay footballer. And I am saying that because no one says they aren't gay, it may mean they aren't gay. I don't need it to be a bastion of staightness as was said, I just don't understand why gayness has to be an issue? Who cares? Do gay people really need to have a gay footballer to be proud of? Why force an issue that MAY not be there?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

You still aren't reading it without your rose tinted gay glasses. I am saying that you cannot say because of statistics it means there are gay footballer. And I am saying that because no one says they aren't gay, it may mean they aren't gay. I don't need it to be a bastion of staightness as was said, I just don't understand why gayness has to be an issue? Who cares? Do gay people really need to have a gay footballer to be proud of? Why force an issue that MAY not be there?

 

Hard to take anything beyond this point seriously to be honest.

[Gemmel]

High horse or not, I do not care; your argument just isn't credible. Loathe as I am to reduce gay people to a statistic, if there are 550+ registered footballers to play in the Premier League, then just a percentage of those (incidentally well below the 6% identifying as gay in Britain) that would amount to 5 gay footballers in the top tier of English football.

 

In what way does denying the existence of gay men in football help the matter? You don't even acknowledge that it might be cultural prejudice (such as your own) that is deterring them from disclosing their sexuality. And in saying that they might not be good enough, might not like football, or just don't wan't to play, you are repeating some pretty lazy stereotypes associating gay men with effeminacy and a lack of interest in sport.

 

If you had opined that gay men are less likely to participate in professional football leagues because they do not want to adhere to a macho straight culture and/or that they risk being bullied by their peers, then you might make a decent point.

 

In my eyes all you've said is that there might not be any gay people in football because they haven't come out - effectively you are just whitewashing over the potential for any prejudice in the sport.

 

I hope I'm not the only one who sees that as pretty ignorant.

 

You are looking for ways to be outraged, by Orchards point of view, but you are failing to consider the simple fact that maybe the genetics of a professional footballer and indeed many other sports may not lend themselves to the genetics of a homosexual man. I have no idea if that is true or not, but it seems to make sense or worthy of some thought to me.

[DuncanRG]

You are looking for ways to be outraged, by Orchards point of view, but you are failing to consider the simple fact that maybe the genetics of a professional footballer and indeed many other sports may not lend themselves to the genetics of a homosexual man. I have no idea if that is true or not, but it seems to make sense or worthy of some thought to me.

 

I'll help you out - it's not true in the slightest.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Do people seriously still think all gay men are like Louis Spence?

 

"Gay men can't be good at sports, they are basically birds. Maybe something like gymnastics"

 

Completely neglecting the openly out rugby players, and American Football players.

 

The whole, it's not in their genetics things is a nonsense of the highest order.

[Toon Saint]

You are looking for ways to be outraged, by Orchards point of view, but you are failing to consider the simple fact that maybe the genetics of a professional footballer and indeed many other sports may not lend themselves to the genetics of a homosexual man. I have no idea if that is true or not, but it seems to make sense or worthy of some thought to me.

 

I'd say dismayed by Orchard's 'point of view' - a man who feels it fine to employ sad remarks about 'gay rose tinted glasses' and in the same breath deny the existence of homophobia in football.

 

The 'idea' that you floated, rooted in eugenics, is probably more troubling still.

 

Hitler and Goebell's leapt upon psychiatric notions of 'perversion', 'inversion', and ideas of stunted mental and physical development, in order to justify their eugenics programme and the killing of thousands of gay men in Germany.

 

So you'll pardon me if I suggest that your idea is worthy of no thought whatsoever.

[Gemmel]

I'd say dismayed by Orchard's 'point of view' - a man who feels it fine to employ sad remarks about 'gay rose tinted glasses' and in the same breath deny the existence of homophobia in football.

 

The 'idea' that you floated, rooted in eugenics, is probably more troubling still.

 

Hitler and Goebell's leapt upon psychiatric notions of 'perversion', 'inversion', and ideas of stunted mental and physical development, in order to justify their eugenics programme and the killing of thousands of gay men in Germany.

 

So you'll pardon me if I suggest that your idea is worthy of no thought whatsoever.

 

Should probably lock this thread now - Move the topic over to the lounge if you want to discuss it further.

[Bearsy]

Hitler and Goebell's leapt upon psychiatric notions of 'perversion', 'inversion', and ideas of stunted mental and physical development, in order to justify their eugenics programme and the killing of thousands of gay men in Germany.

 

Would never of happened if someone had thought to put rainbow laces in Stormtrooper jackboots

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Would never of happened if someone had thought to put rainbow laces in Stormtrooper jackboots

 

Lulz.

 

It's funny, it's widely believed a number of hitlers closest were in fact gay.

[orchardsaint]

I'd say dismayed by Orchard's 'point of view' - a man who feels it fine to employ sad remarks about 'gay rose tinted glasses' and in the same breath deny the existence of homophobia in football.

 

The 'idea' that you floated, rooted in eugenics, is probably more troubling still.

 

Hitler and Goebell's leapt upon psychiatric notions of 'perversion', 'inversion', and ideas of stunted mental and physical development, in order to justify their eugenics programme and the killing of thousands of gay men in Germany.

 

So you'll pardon me if I suggest that your idea is worthy of no thought whatsoever.

 

I didn't say "gay rose tinted glasses". And you still don't get it. Just because 1 in 10 are blah blah blah or whatever, doesn't mean there HAS to be gay footballers. Why does there HAVE to be a gay anything? Why can't there just be footballers and no one need to pigeon hole everyone? Too much time wasted on why there aren't gay (whatever's) anyway. No one cares there aren't enough ginger footballers!

[hypochondriac]

If glasses were gay it wouldn't be that surprising if they were rose tinted.

[Toon Saint]

I didn't say "gay rose tinted glasses". And you still don't get it. Just because 1 in 10 are blah blah blah or whatever, doesn't mean there HAS to be gay footballers. Why does there HAVE to be a gay anything? Why can't there just be footballers and no one need to pigeon hole everyone? Too much time wasted on why there aren't gay (whatever's) anyway. No one cares there aren't enough ginger footballers!

 

You said 'rose tinted gay glasses' - is there much difference? How can it ever be time wasted if gay people watch or play the sport and are insulted by homophobic chants?

 

Please don't kid us that you are reincarnated as the new Morrissey and are now trying to stop pigeonholing people by sexual orientation.

 

Bearsy, very good.

[Webby]

Perhaps there should be a campaign that the church could support.

[adrian lord]

Perhaps there should be a campaign that the church could support.

 

Yes - against paedophile priests perchance?

[Tokyo-Saint]

ok let's brainstorm! Virgins! Clinically obese! Intellectuals! Down's Syndromes! Blind people! erm... Poor people! Midgets!

 

How do you explain jay Spearing then bear?

 

[Saint_clark]

Speak for yourself, I dont assume any such thing. I dont give it a moments thought because its not relevant.

 

Absolutely.

It is ridiculous that people are so determined to point out problems where there are none.

[Sour Mash]

You said 'rose tinted gay glasses' - is there much difference? How can it ever be time wasted if gay people watch or play the sport and are insulted by homophobic chants?

Is anyone really that bothered by what is shouted/chanted at a game of football? It's not direct abuse towards them as an individual is it?

[eurosaint]

I guess that I am in a minority of one but I strongly believe that if one or two top footballers 'came out' then there would be pretty much a universal acceptance of this ! Clearly this is up to the individual but at the same time it is unfair to accuse the majority of repression if it has not actually happened !

The press, politicians, etc.. would make a meal of it it for a short time but thereafter everything would settle and (apart from a few idiots) it would be no different to race issues, which IMHO is now a relatively minor problem compared to the past !

When I sit in the Kingsland with Harry, Ron, John, Dave, Peter, Bob and Ray, I can honestly say that this topic (and also race for that matter) has never come up. Equally, if we turn out to have a gay player in the team I suspect that it will warrant no more than a passing comment before we move on to slagging off the manager and the scapegoat of the day !

[cellone]

How do you explain jay Spearing then bear?

 

 

He's gonna pop!

[hypochondriac]

Is anyone really that bothered by what is shouted/chanted at a game of football? It's not direct abuse towards them as an individual is it?

 

It's not even abuse against the gays as a group. It's the same as when the hammers sang Southampton's a sh1thole I wanna go home.

[Toon Saint]

Is anyone really that bothered by what is shouted/chanted at a game of football? It's not direct abuse towards them as an individual is it?

 

1) It reinforces a culture where gay footballers are afraid to 'come out'

2) Just because the nature of the chant is generalised doesn't preclude people taking personal offence to it.

3) Hard to say what somebody else will find offensive when you haven't been in that minority position (i.e. black, disabled, gay)

4) When we have had so many government backed initiatives supporting the goal of kicking racism out of football, then I guess there are a fair number of people out there who are bothered about what is chanted at a football match. In my opinion, rightly so.

[Sour Mash]

1) It reinforces a culture where gay footballers are afraid to 'come out'

2) Just because the nature of the chant is generalised doesn't preclude people taking personal offence to it.

3) Hard to say what somebody else will find offensive when you haven't been in that minority position (i.e. black, disabled, gay)

4) When we have had so many government backed initiatives supporting the goal of kicking racism out of football, then I guess there are a fair number of people out there who are bothered about what is chanted at a football match. In my opinion, rightly so.

Who cares if they "come out"? Why is this so important for you? Pretty much anything can be found offensive - I know some people can't stand constant swearing, should that be banned as well? No-one that I know, across a wide section of football fans, really care what is chanted at a game of football - why should anyone be all that bothered with what others are singing and chanting at a footballer 100 yards away.

[Toon Saint]

Who cares if they "come out"? Why is this so important for you? Pretty much anything can be found offensive - I know some people can't stand constant swearing, should that be banned as well? No-one that I know, across a wide section of football fans, really care what is chanted at a game of football - why should anyone be all that bothered with what others are singing and chanting at a footballer 100 yards away.

 

Canvassed many black or gay fans across that wide section did you? Remarkable that you can compare prejudiced chants to swearing as though they are next on the hit-list of some great PC project gone berserk. Couldn't ever be outdated (non) opinions like yours that are part of the problem could it?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Using statistics to claim that x amount of the population are gay, therefore x amount of footballers are gay is clearly nonsense.

 

Quite a large proportion of the population is black, blacks are fantastic at sport, but I dont recall any black swimmers in any Olympic final in history.

 

Is swimming a racist sport?

[Whitey Grandad]

Canvassed many black or gay fans across that wide section did you? Remarkable that you can compare prejudiced chants to swearing as though they are next on the hit-list of some great PC project gone berserk. Couldn't ever be outdated (non) opinions like yours that are part of the problem could it?

 

Problem? What problem?

[hypochondriac]

Canvassed many black or gay fans across that wide section did you? Remarkable that you can compare prejudiced chants to swearing as though they are next on the hit-list of some great PC project gone berserk. Couldn't ever be outdated (non) opinions like yours that are part of the problem could it?

 

What racist chanting have you heard at the football lately? I think the point is that many don't consider does your boyfriend know you're here prejudiced chanting.

[Sour Mash]

Canvassed many black or gay fans across that wide section did you? Remarkable that you can compare prejudiced chants to swearing as though they are next on the hit-list of some great PC project gone berserk. Couldn't ever be outdated (non) opinions like yours that are part of the problem could it?

So only black and gay people can be offended and no-one else? How many black or gay people have you recently canvassed on their views?

[Hatch]

The stats prove that at least 2 people who have posted on this thread are gay.

[sotonist]

I would have thought the only people the chant would offend are homophobes.

 

Let's all accuse eachother of homosexually until the homophobes can't stand it any more and GTFO.

[sotonist]

That's assuming it's appropriate to victimise people for thinking homosexuality is wrong.

[chocco boxo]

I wonder who will be the first player to be bummed whilst tying up his rainbow laces! Is Paddy Power offering odds on that.?

[Bearsy]

 

check this! I thought it was joke cos of the playing for other team thing, and also the "Right behind gay footballers", but no, this is the genuine ad campaign!

[hypochondriac]

I think there is little doubt that this will be a watershed moment in the fight against the plague of homophobia in football. When the first gay premiership footballer holds his press conference for the world's media next year and they ask him what prompted his announcement he will answer 'the laces.'

[Toon Saint]

So only black and gay people can be offended and no-one else? How many black or gay people have you recently canvassed on their views?

 

The point I was making was not that I had canvassed black and gay people on how they feel about prejudiced chanting, but that it is disingenuous for a straight male fan to speak on the behalf of gay people and say that the chants are not offensive or that there is no problem with homophobia on the terraces.

[Toon Saint]

Problem? What problem?

 

I would have thought the only people the chant would offend are homophobes.

 

Let's all accuse eachother of homosexually until the homophobes can't stand it any more and GTFO.

 

I wonder who will be the first player to be bummed whilst tying up his rainbow laces! Is Paddy Power offering odds on that.?

 

That's assuming it's appropriate to victimise people for thinking homosexuality is wrong.

 

I think I found the problem.

[hypochondriac]

Are you a gay Toon Saint?

[Hatch]

Are the laces available in the club shop?

[Sour Mash]

The point I was making was not that I had canvassed black and gay people on how they feel about prejudiced chanting, but that it is disingenuous for a straight male fan to speak on the behalf of gay people and say that the chants are not offensive or that there is no problem with homophobia on the terraces.

Fair play, you are right, it is disingenuous for you or I to speak on their behalf. Put forward some accounts of people being put off going to football then?

[hypochondriac]

A couple of years ago I used to go to the odd game with my mate Edwin who is a gay. One time we scored and I punched him in the side of the head whilst celebrating. He hasn't been with me since so not sure if that was a hate crime or not or whether he was put off by the homophobic chanting. I'll have to ask him.

[Tokyo-Saint]

My mate's brother is gay and he doesn't go to football. Not because of any chants he doesn't like or because he feels anyone would act in a homophobic way, it's cause he is into other things. It seems that most of his gay mates are into other things as well and none of them seem to be interested at all in football. In fact, I never see any of the guys in the waiting area of sexy summer Sundays in Ham kicking a ball around. I also use to work in Soho and go for drinks in the gay bars there. They never once showed a match at 'The Edge'. For some reason gay guys just don't seem to be interested in football. Are they footballaphobic? Maybe they should start wearing team tops on nights out to show their support. The only gay footballer to ever come out was an American where football is generally considered a bit of a gay sport. Gays seem to be into stuff other gays are into.

[sotonist]

What colour laces do we wear for the pro-homophobe campaign. I can't think of a single currently active footballer who has come out as a homophobe.

 

A study performed in 2007 in the UK for the charity Stonewall reports that up to 90 percent of the population support anti-discrimination laws protecting gay and lesbian people.

 

This means that ten percent of footballers are homophobes but are afraid of speaking up and being their true selves.

[buctootim]

I think I found the problem.

 

You made the problem. Its not the same thing

[Whitey Grandad]

I think I found the problem.

 

You're looking for problems where none exist.