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petermcpete

By petermcpete,
in The Saints

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
Apparently you are struggling with the difference between legality and culture. There are many good dictionaries available.

 

Perhaps the culture of the minority should also be changed? Cottaging in public toilets, cruising in public parks and woods, gay saunas etc? Is that culture, much of which is also illegal and also offensive to the majority, okay because its a minority so therefore protected?

 

The village people should be banned. I've always found them offensive.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
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Of course there are, its the issue they feel the need to hide from their employers and fans thats worrying.

 

People try and tune in to the prevailing culture fit in where ever they go. Im far better dressed, better spoken, and talk about the arts far more at work than I ever do at home. Work in HIV treatment and care as I have done on the past and the prevailing culture is very different again.

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S4INT

S4INT

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I am disappointed we haven't signed up to the anti-homophobia campaign. The fact that so few openly gay footballers have come out is a real shame and I think that the rainbow laces idea is a nice gesture and would show that clubs and players are at least open to the idea

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

Posted
Posted (edited)
More to the point, if they chanted back "Yes, he knows I'm safe with you" instead of complaining it would make a better atmosphere all round and promote more change.

 

Should we set aside a few minutes before games in England so gay players can chant back? Perhaps it would be more practical to promote real tolerance and not work at the convenience of the privileged.

Edited by DuncanRG
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sfc1976

sfc1976

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Discrimination is certainly big business these days. Maybe one day homophobia will rival racism in terms of the number of people employed to campaign against it. More revenue for the Guardian jobs section I suppose, unless they combine it with the role of 'youth development worker' or 'community leader'.

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

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Maybe saints don't believe there is a huge homophobia problem in football?

 

Perhaps not, but they'd be wrong to think there wasn't a problem at all.

 

Discrimination is certainly big business these days. Maybe one day homophobia will rival racism in terms of the number of people employed to campaign against it. More revenue for the Guardian jobs section I suppose, unless they combine it with the role of 'youth development worker' or 'community leader'.

 

I hope you're being intentionally tasteless and do possess empathy of some kind.

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Gemmel

Gemmel

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Perhaps not, but they'd be wrong to think there wasn't a problem at all.

 

 

 

I hope you're being intentionally tasteless and do possess empathy of some kind.

 

I think people are just fed up with being told there are all these problems in Football, when quite frankly they don't exist.

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

Posted
Posted (edited)
I think people are just fed up with being told there are all these problems in Football, when quite frankly they don't exist.

 

Gay players are afraid to come out. One of the two who has done so felt that he couldn't stay in the game. He eventually returned to football in America, where the sport is more family-oriented and lacking the hostility of European/English crowds. The other committed suicide. He cited response to his sexuality, albeit in the courts rather than football, in his note. That's a problem.

Edited by DuncanRG
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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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Perhaps not, but they'd be wrong to think there wasn't a problem at all.

 

 

 

I hope you're being intentionally tasteless and do possess empathy of some kind.

 

Maybe they think there may be a small issue but no worse than in wider society and certainly not warranting special attention such as silly rainbow laces.

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

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Maybe they think there may be a small issue but no worse than in wider society and certainly not warranting special attention such as silly rainbow laces.

 

Like I say, I hope they give the players the freedom to decide that for themselves. I'd hate to think there are any players at Southampton who feel they have to bear the burden of hiding their sexuality.

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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Posted
Like I say, I hope they give the players the freedom to decide that for themselves. I'd hate to think there are any players at Southampton who feel they have to bear the burden of hiding their sexuality.

 

It's not really anyone's business apart from their own and maybe the bloke or blokes they are with.

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

Posted
Posted (edited)
It's not really anyone's business apart from their own and maybe the bloke or blokes they are with.

 

No, not really, but keeping the secret hurts people. You and I, as straight people, can't know what it's like but I am at least channelling what I know from the accounts of the people who it actually affects. I'm listening and trying to understand their experiences - you're not. If it were all okay and not worth worrying about then nobody would be talking about it at all.

Edited by DuncanRG
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Toon Saint

Toon Saint

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Maybe saints don't believe there is a huge homophobia problem in football?

 

I don't want the gays to ram anything anywhere.

 

Your school-boy s******ing suggests that there is indeed a big problem of homophobia in football, and really you are just lamenting the threat to your 'rights' to continue peddling the same juvenile 'backs to the wall boys!' garbage.

 

DuncanRG is speaking by far the most sense on this matter, and there needs to be a sea-change in attitudes before a gay footballer can feel comfortable opening up about their sexuality to their peers.

 

Joey Barton has gone up a lot in my esteem for publicly supporting the anti-homophobia campaign and all credit to him. No credit to our club who should be doing a lot more to outline their stance on tackling homophobic chants and slurs - a surprise given their committed approach to stamping out racism in the game.

 

I've already tweeted the club about this inaction beforehand but had no reply. If I have time I will look to put something in writing to them over the next fortnight or so.

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itchen

itchen

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Posted

In my lifetime, attitudes to homosexuality have changed behind all recognition. When I was a small child, homosexual acts were still illegal. Even after legalisation all sorts of restrictions applied that didn't apply to heterosexuals. The age of consent was 21 until about 1998. When I was at school kid didn't come out for fear of bullying. Now society has moved on. We have gay cabinet ministers, athletes and tennis players. People talk openly about their same sex partners. My wife is a teacher and tells me that kids in her school are openly gay and don't suffer from the majority. A glaring exception to this is professional football. It cannot be that there are no gay players but no one is willing to risk the repercussions of coming out. This is a shame. I don't know whether the campaign under discussion would improve things but please let's not pretend there isn't a problem.

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

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Posted
Just by the by is there lots of openly gay darts players, rugby players and racing car drivers? Srsly, I'm interest! No trolls pls

 

It seems to be a problem across several sports, but none have quite the hostility (towards all sorts of things) that football does. I've heard of a handful of gay rugby players but also read articles questioning why there aren't many players 'out'. A quick google confirms the same for racing.

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KelvinsRightGlove

KelvinsRightGlove

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Exactly. I really don't care about anybody's sexuality but I wish they'd keep it to themselves and not try to ram it down my throat.

 

This is pretty much the gay equivalent of "I'm not racist, but...".

 

What is 'it' you don't want rammed down your throat?

 

What gay person has ever tried to ram anything down your throat?

 

Shame Saints aren't doing much on this issue. Homophobia, like racism has no place in society, let alone football.

 

Don't really get those that say football is an open-minded cross section of society, it clearly isn't.

 

Football can be a really positive influence, so yes, football clubs absolutely should take the lead.

 

Whether rainbow laces is the way to go or not is debatable, but it's something at least.

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orchardsaint

orchardsaint

Posted
Posted
In my lifetime, attitudes to homosexuality have changed behind all recognition. When I was a small child, homosexual acts were still illegal. Even after legalisation all sorts of restrictions applied that didn't apply to heterosexuals. The age of consent was 21 until about 1998. When I was at school kid didn't come out for fear of bullying. Now society has moved on. We have gay cabinet ministers, athletes and tennis players. People talk openly about their same sex partners. My wife is a teacher and tells me that kids in her school are openly gay and don't suffer from the majority. A glaring exception to this is professional football. It cannot be that there are no gay players but no one is willing to risk the repercussions of coming out. This is a shame. I don't know whether the campaign under discussion would improve things but please let's not pretend there isn't a problem.

 

Why does everyone assume there are any gay footballer? Just because some people are gay doesn't mean there HAS to be gay footballers. I am not stating this as a fact but there might not be. There aren't that many Indian professional footballers in England ( I can't think of one) so does that make us racist? It might be that gay men aren't very good at football, don't like football or just don't want to play. Just because no one says they are gay, everyone is now being told they are still hiding it.

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

Posted
Posted (edited)
Why does everyone assume there are any gay footballer? Just because some people are gay doesn't mean there HAS to be gay footballers. I am not stating this as a fact but there might not be. There aren't that many Indian professional footballers in England ( I can't think of one) so does that make us racist? It might be that gay men aren't very good at football, don't like football or just don't want to play. Just because no one says they are gay, everyone is now being told they are still hiding it.

 

It is utterly ludicrous to even float the idea there are no gay footballers in England.

 

2.2% of men surveyed in 2011/12 identified (identified, remember) as gay, bisexual or 'other'. In other words, 1 in 50 identified. Do you think, with the thousands of professional footballers playing in England, it's even worth humouring the idea of such a bizarre coincidence having occurred?

Edited by DuncanRG
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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted (edited)
It is utterly ludicrous to even float the idea there are no gay footballers in England.

 

2.1% of men surveyed in 2011 identified (identified, remember) as gay, bisexual or 'other. In other words, 1 in 50 identified. Do you think, with the thousands of professional footballers playing in England, it's even worth humouring the idea of such a bizarre coincidence having occurred?

 

That assumes gay sportsmen are evenly spread throughout the sports when clearly they aren't. Good luck finding a hetero Ice Dance skater. If I was gay and very sporty as a kid I'd avoid team games like football exactly because they tend to be a bit neandrathal - not specifically about gay issues but higher cognitive processes generally. Athletics, swimming etc are less so. This NFL player makes the argument here. http://www.towleroad.com/2012/12/brendon-ayanbadejo-only-3-of-nfl-is-gay.html

Edited by buctootim
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orchardsaint

orchardsaint

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Posted
It is utterly ludicrous to even float the idea there are no gay footballers in England.

 

2.1% of men surveyed in 2011 identified (identified, remember) as gay, bisexual or 'other. In other words, 1 in 50 identified. Do you think, with the thousands of professional footballers playing in England, it's even worth humouring the idea of such a bizarre coincidence having occurred?

 

No it is not ludicrous. 1 in 20 voted conservative in the last election but not one person in the over three thousand workforce I worked at did. I'm only saying just because no one says they are means that some of them are hiding it.

 

One other thing, gay bisexual or other. Surely the other is straight? If so, that buggers up the statistics a little bit doesn't it?

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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Posted
It seems to be a problem across several sports, but none have quite the hostility (towards all sorts of things) that football does. I've heard of a handful of gay rugby players but also read articles questioning why there aren't many players 'out'. A quick google confirms the same for racing.

 

How does this hostility manifest itself within football?

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

Posted
Posted (edited)
No it is not ludicrous. 1 in 20 voted conservative in the last election but not one person in the over three thousand workforce I worked at did. I'm only saying just because no one says they are means that some of them are hiding it.

 

One other thing, gay bisexual or other. Surely the other is straight? If so, that buggers up the statistics a little bit doesn't it?

 

Not one person in your workforce admitted to it. There is overwhelming statistical evidence to suggest that there are LGBT footballers. In the case of your workforce you would have to consider other figures - what percentage voted Conservative in the area(s) you operate out of, for example. If you're based in a Labour stronghold there is a bigger chance that nobody voted Conservative, but sexuality is not affected by geography.

 

94 per cent identified as heterosexual. It should have been fairly obvious that straight people did not make up 2 per cent of the population.

 

How does this hostility manifest itself within football?

 

Mass chants of 'W-nker! W-nker! W-nker!' at opposition players and officials. We had that yesterday. Individuals or smaller groups shouting abuse when players come to take throw-ins, etc. Obtuse gestures are very common. Examples last season of coins and other objects being thrown at players. A lot of fans enjoy launching abuse and trying to unsettle the opposition with it. We know that fans who are prone to abusing people will use what they know about a player as ammunition - John Terry for example says he gets things about his wife and children on a regular basis. There's no reason to think someone's sexuality would be anything other than 'ammunition' to these types. Race used to be - players are worried that sexuality still is, and if the reaction from some of you lot to a simple, small campaign like this is anything to go by, 'hostile' is indeed the word.

 

the Secret Footballer dude said he didn't know none and that made me think it must be v.uncommon. I feel like you'd know if one of ur team mates was a gay.

 

If people could somehow tell without fail, without someone having to tell them, then the concept of 'coming out' wouldn't exist.

Edited by DuncanRG
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Toon Saint

Toon Saint

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Posted (edited)
Why does everyone assume there are any gay footballer? Just because some people are gay doesn't mean there HAS to be gay footballers. I am not stating this as a fact but there might not be. There aren't that many Indian professional footballers in England ( I can't think of one) so does that make us racist? It might be that gay men aren't very good at football, don't like football or just don't want to play. Just because no one says they are gay, everyone is now being told they are still hiding it.

 

One of the most, if not the most idiotic posts I have ever read on here.

 

Why are you comparing a hypothetical structural/socio-economic issue (i.e. Indian footballers not being good enough to play in the EPL) with a biological/cultural one (there might not be any gay footballers playing because they haven't come out)?

 

Whatever method you use of measuring the frequency of homosexuality, the fact is that gay men and women (however historically or culturally 'defined') have existed throughout human history and continue to make up a sizeable minority of our population.

 

Why do you think they would not be involved in football or play it? I know gay people who play and watch football on a regular basis. You only have to look at people like Steven Fry and Elton John, as gay celebrity fans/directors, to suggest that English football isn't the last bastion of male 'straightness' that you so obviously crave it to be.

 

Do you not think that gay footballers might have a hard time 'coming out' because of the wider ignorance and prejudices of fans and players? Your a priori assumption that all footballers are straight and that a gay man wouldn't be interested in competitive sport hardly makes for an accepting climate does it?

Edited by Toon Saint
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Bearsy

Bearsy

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Posted

 

nah is satire but was f*cking hilarious! I totally lost it when he was naming slang terms and he come out with "cat-flaps"! And then when he's like, "No, we can't take credit for all of them, lezzers and dykes we didn't come up with those"

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

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Posted
Do you not think that gay footballers might have a hard time 'coming out' because of the wider ignorance and prejudices of fans? Your a priori assumption that all footballers are straight and that a gay man wouldn't be interested in competitive sport hardly makes for an accepting climate does it?

 

Put it better than I ever could.

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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Posted
One of the most, if not the most idiotic posts I have ever read on here.

 

Why are you comparing a hypothetical structural/socio-economic issue (i.e. Indian footballers not being good enough to play in the EPL) with a biological/cultural one (there might not be any gay footballers playing because they haven't come out)?

 

Whatever method you use of measuring the frequency of homosexuality, the fact is that gay men and women (however historically or culturally 'defined') have existed throughout human history and continue to make up a sizeable minority of our population.

 

Why do you think they would not be involved in football or play it? I know gay people who play and watch football on a regular basis. You only have to look at people like Steven Fry and Elton John, as gay celebrity fans/directors, to suggest that English football isn't the last bastion of male 'straightness' that you so obviously crave it to be.

 

Do you not think that gay footballers might have a hard time 'coming out' because of the wider ignorance and prejudices of fans and players? Your a priori assumption that all footballers are straight and that a gay man wouldn't be interested in competitive sport hardly makes for an accepting climate does it?

 

He didn't say they weren't interested, he suggested they might not be good enough.

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