Post Match Reaction: SAINTS 0-0 West Ham

[Turkish]

I dont keep trotting anything. You keep referring to it in whatever thread I write in about other things, a bit obsessed are you?

 

And btw, those stats were from 280 games of football, and you know how many of those were about Southampton FC??

5%. So if you really want to make those stats look wrong you have to look at ALL games, not just the Saints one.

 

But I still haven´t got any answer to a question I asked 3-4 times (dont think I´ll get one now either).

Do you think the team with the fewer shots in games have a better chance winning games than the team with more shots in the long run??

 

So far this season we have played four games, had most shots at goal in two of them and taken 2 points from those games. In the other two games we have had less shots at goal and taken 3 points from them.

 

So which is working better for us?

[hypochondriac]

Amount of shots are less important that shot accuracy I would suggest...

[Turkish]

Amount of shots are less important that shot accuracy I would suggest...

 

Accurancy, quality of shot at goal are important factors, Olallana seems to think it's just the amount.

[hypochondriac]

Accurancy, quality of shot at goal are important factors, Olallana seems to think it's just the amount.

 

Also depends what you define as a shot. You could argue that the hammers keeper had a couple yesterday...

[Olallana]

So far this season we have played four games, had most shots at goal in two of them and taken 2 points from those games. In the other two games we have had less shots at goal and taken 3 points from them.

 

So which is working better for us?

 

4 times and still no answer as I predicted, not as it was the hardest thing to do though so I really dont deserve any credit for that one.

[Turkish]

4 times and still no answer as I predicted, not as it was the hardest thing to do though so I really dont deserve any credit for that one.

 

Well as has already been commented on, i'd rather have two shots at goal from 6 yards out than 25 from 40 yards out. So it's a case of quality as well as quantity isnt it.

 

Now, what is working better for us, 3 points from 2 games where we had LESS shots at goal or 2 points from 2 games where we had more?

[Olallana]

Well as has already been commented on, i'd rather have two shots at goal from 6 yards out than 25 from 40 yards out. So it's a case of quality as well as quantity isnt it.

 

Now, what is working better for us, 3 points from 2 games where we had LESS shots at goal or 2 points from 2 games where we had more?

 

I´ve never said that quality doesn´t matter.

I´ve said that the overall performance (again, not result) were and is usually better by the team creating the most chances, as MOTD2 also said last night when they thought we were the better team.

 

Again, performances and results are two different thing and I´ve been talking about performances from day one of the original thread, it´s all there to read if you need to catch up.

[The9]

Final third is still a problem. But how come we can't make use of JWP's FKs? That's alarming to me.

 

We're not going to score from all of them - already scored from one this season, the two yesterday saw a defender block Fonte's stretching shot, and poor timing which saw Lovren and Fonte offside, checking and then unable to get to the ball in anyway.

 

Biggest problems for me :

 

1) Wanyama can't pass accurately, short and quickly and we've had to change our style to accommodate this, making us much slower to get the ball forward and leaving the team to break down an organised defence.

2) Concern about getting caught by long balls from when we were a pressing side meaning our full backs don't get forward as much. Has helped us defensively though.

3) Too much perfect pass paranoia in the final third - some of our best chances yesterday were from off the cuff broken play moves, numerous occasions where we didn't try a risky through pass and instead just didn't pass it at all.

4) Too many off-form players making errors at the wrong times (eg Rodriguez/Lallana toeing the ball too far when running through, Lambert's weak shot in front of the Northam, also Osvaldo hitting the keeper)

5) Not enough movement generally, too predictable.

[Turkish]

I´ve never said that quality doesn´t matter.

I´ve said that the overall performance (again, not result) were and is usually better by the team creating the most chances, as MOTD2 also said last night when they thought we were the better team.

 

Again, performances and results are two different thing and I´ve been talking about performances from day one of the original thread, it´s all there to read if you need to catch up.

 

BUt based simply on "good performances" or in your world more shots at goal than our opponents, we would finish lower in the table than we would based on "not so good performances" ie - less shots at goal than our opponents.

[Olallana]

BUt based simply on "good performances" or in your world more shots at goal than our opponents, we would finish lower in the table than we would based on "not so good performances" ie - less shots at goal than our opponents.

 

Perhaps but unlikely and 4 games dont show a pattern. And it´s not all about the shots, but to win games you have to score goals, to score goals you have to create chances.

The conversion ratio on chances dont differ too much over a longer period of time so if you create more you stand a better chance to score more and if you score more you.....

[The9]

Perhaps but unlikely and 4 games dont show a pattern. And it´s not all about the shots, but to win games you have to score goals, to score goals you have to create chances.

The conversion ratio on chances dont differ too much over a longer period of time so if you create more you stand a better chance to score more and if you score more you.....

 

Actually last season we were an outlier in creating a lot of chances but not scoring that many goals. Extrapolate our poor goals to shots ratio downwards to also creating fewer chances to begin with, and that's a big problem.

 

At the moment we look like a side that'll be lucky to finish as high as last season - plus we've already p155ed off some of the top sides by beating them last time, so they'll be at full strength against us this season...

[The9]

Having gone to dig out the stats, I've found that we were very good at "clear cut chance conversion" http://eplindex.com/27890/how-well-does-your-team-convert-chances-premier-league-stats-comparison.html but if that's the case then we were also poor at scoring from less obvious positions. And if we're ponderous on the ball we're a lot less likely to create the "good" opportunities.

[Leicestersaint]

A very disappointing result - our midfield is not really firing at all and the balance of the team is not right yet.

 

I think we are missing Cork.

[Charlie Wayman]

Very disappointing. Lambert clearly has improved since he's been way with England which is a bit worrying. How good is he because the truth might be that we don't get the best out of him so he might be very goos indeed. The fact that he improves at every level he plays in suggests he might actually be world class in the right surroundings. Just possible he would do better at Barcelona with much better people around him.

 

We failed because WHU close marked Morgan and Wanyama almost out of the game so they couldn't get anything going from the midfield. Football ought to be about more than neutralising your opponents so why not NO points for a 0-0 draw? Would stop the likes of Big Hoofs Allardyce in his tracks.

[Lighthouse]

Actually last season we were an outlier in creating a lot of chances but not scoring that many goals. Extrapolate our poor goals to shots ratio downwards to also creating fewer chances to begin with, and that's a big problem.

 

At the moment we look like a side that'll be lucky to finish as high as last season - plus we've already p155ed off some of the top sides by beating them last time, so they'll be at full strength against us this season...

 

By that logic teams like Man Utd, Spurs and Arsenal will play weaker teams against us an be complacent because we couldn't beat them last year. In reality it doesn't work like that. We beat Man Utd at home about 3 years in a row in the late 90s and we've beat Liverpool in 4 of the last 6 meetings. Last year 2 of the relegated teams beat us at St Marys. What if we spank the 3 promoted teams this season?

 

Comparisons with last seasons fixtures mean very little but I don't see a case for thinking we will finish lower than last year. We're already 11th in the table, 5 points better off after the first 4 games and 3 points better than the corresponding fixtures last year. Doesn't mean much but they are all small signs of improvement.

[Brave Sir Robin]

It was just one of those unfortunate days when the oppositions keeper put in the performance of his career. He looked as suprised at some of the saves he pulled off as anyone else! Any other day we would have beaten them by 2 or 3.

Plenty of positives to take from the game.Yes, Wanyama had a mare, but we now have the strength in depth to have the option of replacing him with Cork if he doesn't look like he's learnt from it by the weekend. Our defence looks solid, however, and our attacking potential is awesome once things start to gel and confidence grows. Lets see where we are in 5 or 6 games. I reckon we're well on course for spending the whole season in mid table and finishing 10th to 14th.

[CB Fry]

 

We failed because WHU close marked Morgan and Wanyama almost out of the game so they couldn't get anything going from the midfield. Football ought to be about more than neutralising your opponents so why not NO points for a 0-0 draw? Would stop the likes of Big Hoofs Allardyce in his tracks.

 

Quite right. The football authorities should recognise free-scoring beautiful footballing teams like Saints. After all we've rained in two goals already this season which is amazing.

 

And they should punish football-murdering bore-teams like West Ham. After all they've scored only two goals this season which is utterly pathetic.

[Charlie Wayman]

Quite right. The football authorities should recognise free-scoring beautiful footballing teams like Saints. After all we've rained in two goals already this season which is amazing.

 

And they should punish football-murdering bore-teams like West Ham. After all they've scored only two goals this season which is utterly pathetic.

 

We are as one on this as they say!

[forever a red and white]

Lack of goals are worrying. Quite frankly the balance of the team is not right I think. Jay Rod looks the only player who can beat a man for pace. We don't get in behind defenders and don't have the pace to do it. Thats why I don;t think we score as many goals, we always play in front of other teams defenders. Osvaldo looks good, but for me he is too similar to Rickie, why didn't we buy a lightning quick goal poacher or just something different? Time will tell but hopefully a partnership will improve the goals will start flowing.

[Joensuu]

West Ham set out to frustrate. Any team in the league would have struggled to break them down, even Man U or Chelsea might have ended up with a frustrating draw. We should take it as a compliment that teams like West Ham and Sunderland come and try to park the bus. We had opportunities, but we didn't get the rub of luck needed to score. On another day we would have been 2 up by half time.

 

The way West Ham neutralised us is interesting. They had been instructed to close Victor down fast. Obviously Big Sam has noticed that Victor seems prone to misdirecting a pass or three when he is under pressure. As we play the ball out from the back, Wanyama and Morgan are integral to they way we work the ball up the pitch. Clyne and Shaw are our other key players in this respect, and both were closely marked to prevent us using our width. The net effect was in the first half we were struggling to advance with the ball. Our opportunities all seemed to come from moments of individual flair.

 

Porchettino seemed to recognise this, and instructed us to vary our play up a bit. We started introducing some long balls into the mix, which mad it more difficult for West Ham to keep pressing, as the needed to be ready to track back. This change of strategy seemed to lead to a few opportunities, but our luck in front of goal didn't improve. Jaaskelainen simply played a blinder, he pulled off a couple of excellent saves, and without him, West Ham would have lost the game convincingly.

 

Osvaldo looked quite impressive, but no opportunities feel to him. Lallana created and chased, but took one touch too many for his best opportunity. Rodriguez played well, but seems to play best when the crowd are positive - his game seems to suffer whenever the crowd collectively groans at one of his mistakes. Lambert seemed to produce a lot for others. I disagree with those who say that he and Osvaldo can't play together - give them time, they need to familiarise.

 

No idea why JWP was introduced for Lallana. Adam seemed to be playing well - is his fitness below some of the others? I felt that Rodriguez would have been the player to make way.

 

All in all, I'd not get too worried by the result. Last season we'd have lost to a team like this, who set out deliberately to stifle and frustrate. This year we are picking up points from the more combative games. I'm interested to see how we do against Liverpool, as they won't sit back. Will we see last season's high pressing game return? I hope so. Or is our new defensive, lethargic approach, now the way we play against everyone? Certainly in the summer I was concerned that our pressing game was too easy to beat, simply sit back and hit us with long balls on the counter. I'm glad we have a new-found backbone, but can we still remember how to turn over the teams who want to actually play football?

[Chez]

Lack of goals are worrying. Quite frankly the balance of the team is not right I think. Jay Rod looks the only player who can beat a man for pace. We don't get in behind defenders and don't have the pace to do it. Thats why I don;t think we score as many goals, we always play in front of other teams defenders. Osvaldo looks good, but for me he is too similar to Rickie, why didn't we buy a lightning quick goal poacher or just something different? Time will tell but hopefully a partnership will improve the goals will start flowing.

 

I don't think you are allowed to ask for players with pace on here. You'll be reminded that Jonno Quick wasn't very good and he after all was the quickest of the quick so if he can't succeed no one can.

 

I think you are spot on though. Three of the four attackers have no pace at all and Rodriguez has pace but lacks a little guile. It's early I know, but the Osvaldo Ricky partnership doesn't look like it's made in heaven to me.

[wild-saint]

I don't think you are allowed to ask for players with pace on here. You'll be reminded that Jonno Quick wasn't very good and he after all was the quickest of the quick so if he can't succeed no one can.

 

I think you are spot on though. Three of the four attackers have no pace at all and Rodriguez has pace but lacks a little guile. It's early I know, but the Osvaldo Ricky partnership doesn't look like it's made in heaven to me.

 

So you are after a Rickie Lambert with Pace or a Jay Rod with Rickies touch / vision / guile. Not much then Ha Ha. How much would one of those cost in the transfer market i wonder.

[OldNick]

Well as has already been commented on, i'd rather have two shots at goal from 6 yards out than 25 from 40 yards out. So it's a case of quality as well as quantity isnt it.

 

Now, what is working better for us, 3 points from 2 games where we had LESS shots at goal or 2 points from 2 games where we had more?

come on Turkish you are just trying to be difficult here. How many times have we moaned about never shooting? The fact was their keeper,the post and a defender stopped 5 good attempts on goal. I think that the ball hitting the post does not count as an shot on target either.

If you have no shots on target do you win matches? The more attempts the better your chances of scoring of course

[dubai_phil]

Wow bonkers crazy busy weekend THAT was.

 

Brilliant to finally catch up with a TRUE TSW legend and talk all things Turkish.

 

Really enjoyed the game. God WHU were dreadful - total Anti-Football. So SOOOOOOOOOOOO glad we don't have to watch that every week.

 

Yes we were dragged down to their level but from my new ST in row H behind the goal in the Chapel, SRL was already wheeling away to celebrate HOW DID THAT NOT GO IN? and Jaaskawhatever had a dream game with a string of full stretch saves. (Perhaps we need to bundle or fumble the ball in)

 

hen we were slow we were ponderous, but there were times when we did ping the ball around and it was wonderful to behold. The movememt off the ball by JRod & Osvaldo was amazing, the minute nudges & flicks that you can never really see on the telly were sublime and nearly worked on a number of occassions.

 

Back to my bugbear of Lallana and his poor first touch, yes I admit he has improved but he is still taking 1.5 touches and missed a chance and wasted a couple of chances to set up others.

 

Defence loved the look of Lovren & Fonte now seems so much more assured on the ball. What a fantastic dive it was to get one of the two FK's near the end, and what great tactic & delivery from JWP with the face the Kinglsland and hook it to the far post tactic.

 

So, sh1t game, awful refereeing as usual from Marriner, really enjoyed it, first point seen live by Mrs D_P and by last season's Dubai Saints Away shirt.

 

Only grumble the queues in the Mega Store I got a Tee & a Polo shirt NO WAY buying the kit, but was REALLY good to see so many nippers getting their Dad's to buy them the shirts, what a change round.

 

Oh and WTF was it with the weather? Forecast all week said maybe some rain on Friday but sunny all weekend and then THAT? FFS

 

Baton handed to Eric for Dubai Saints in UK at Liverpool, he has to beat our point AND smuggle a 16L Keg of OSH back home.

[The9]

By that logic teams like Man Utd, Spurs and Arsenal will play weaker teams against us an be complacent because we couldn't beat them last year. In reality it doesn't work like that. We beat Man Utd at home about 3 years in a row in the late 90s and we've beat Liverpool in 4 of the last 6 meetings. Last year 2 of the relegated teams beat us at St Marys. What if we spank the 3 promoted teams this season?

 

Comparisons with last seasons fixtures mean very little but I don't see a case for thinking we will finish lower than last year. We're already 11th in the table, 5 points better off after the first 4 games and 3 points better than the corresponding fixtures last year. Doesn't mean much but they are all small signs of improvement.

 

I think we'll probably finish higher, but we probably shouldn't be relying on beating the top sides to keep our average up when complacently talking about how we've got marginally more points that we got last season against worse sides.

[Lovehunk]

Personally thought we played well enough in the final third and created chances. Going through the phases was at times a bit painful to watch with VW seemingly forgetting to look up before passing. But we will score and remember this time last year we were leaking goals left, right and centre. JP left as he wanted 1st team football and he hasnt IMO been replaced. Moses would have been ideal. However all in all I wasnt too downheartened.

[Window Cleaner]

Watched through my recording yesterday, thought the greasy pitch hampered us a bit in a few ways, mistimed tackles, ball control

and overhit passes because they slid off the surface faster than normal. I'd have to say that West Ham's defence is pretty handy,

mind you it should be with the number of units it has in it, it's not surprising that they've only conceeded one goal in 4 PL games (only Spurs have done as well in that sector). It also occured to me that the grudges generated by the two NPC games between the sides are going to fester for a good while yet.

Edited 18 September, 2013 by Window Cleaner

[monosaint]

I wonder whether Big Sam will ever take WHU any further. Seems to spend more time nullifying the opposition than trusting his own team's abilities. It was obvious what he was doing tactically on Sunday and I think MP needs to be able to adapt playing style when that happens. I think we did that in the 2nd Half as they tired and consequently allowed us more space. Doesn't alter the

fact that we need to adapt from the outset.