The Y word

[solentstars]

Dam that liberal elite again must be some gang .

 

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[Barry Sanchez]

Dam that liberal elite again must be some gang .

 

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Oh it is Solent, it is.

[solentstars]

My other favorite is ,the do gooders another meanless catchphrase especially used by some for all society ills.

 

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[Barry Sanchez]

My other favorite is ,the do gooders another meanless catchphrase especially used by some for all society ills.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

Not too sure what you meant by the above Solent but yes self righteous do gooders are also bellends and are nothing more than nosey bastards and do things to gratify themselves as opposed to the benefit of the community that surrounds them, I live on a nice estate and we have a forum for the local residents, its full of bored, lonely people looking at using it as a social ladder, sad ******s, so in short selfless acts by do gooders are great, conceited premeditated do gooders are one of the many banes of modern life, Hyacinth Bucket or Onslow?

Onslow every time.

[Turkish]

Not too sure what you meant by the above Solent but yes self righteous do gooders are also bellends and are nothing more than nosey bastards and do things to gratify themselves as opposed to the benefit of the community that surrounds them, I live on a nice estate and we have a forum for the local residents, its full of bored, lonely people looking at using it as a social ladder, sad ******s, so in short selfless acts by do gooders are great, conceited premeditated do gooders are one of the many banes of modern life, Hyacinth Bucket or Onslow?

Onslow every time.

 

Pretty much sums it up Baz.

 

I particularly enjoy the people desperate to show how caring they are to everyone by posting messages of sympathy and condolance on their facebook or twitter accounts, by amazing coincidence these are the ones that also play candycrush.

[solentstars]

Pretty much sums it up Baz.

 

I particularly enjoy the people desperate to show how caring they are to everyone by posting messages of sympathy and condolance on their facebook or twitter accounts, by amazing coincidence these are the ones that also play candycrush.

 

My you must be brilliant at candy crush.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[solentstars]

Not too sure what you meant by the above Solent but yes self righteous do gooders are also bellends and are nothing more than nosey bastards and do things to gratify themselves as opposed to the benefit of the community that surrounds them, I live on a nice estate and we have a forum for the local residents, its full of bored, lonely people looking at using it as a social ladder, sad ******s, so in short selfless acts by do gooders are great, conceited premeditated do gooders are one of the many banes of modern life, Hyacinth Bucket or Onslow?

Onslow every time.

 

Pity there are not many Onslow types nowadays. but the hyacinth bucket types would be members of the conservative elite I would say.

 

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[Barry Sanchez]

Candycrush is a game played by people who put cat pictures up with a supposed amusing tag line on facebook, your friend from school who posts a different bloke every 5 mins about how its their soul partner for life, the photo of them having a blast in some 2for1 ****hole, yes I know the type.

[Tokyo-Saint]

*gives Barry a life *

[Barry Sanchez]

Pity there are not many Onslow types nowadays. but the hyacinth bucket types would be members of the conservative elite I would say.

 

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You are thinking very very low brow if you think Hyacinth Bucket is a tory elite, try Osborne and Rees-Mogg

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12282505

You will learn more about the Liberal Elites here.

[Turkish]

My you must be brilliant at candy crush.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

Never played it. Do you play it on the train on the way to your UAF meets?

[solentstars]

Never played it. Do you play it on the train on the way to your UAF meets?

oh dear you mentioned it and have never played.

 

Ha Ha must be all that marching you do all over the country with all the boys numbing the brain.

 

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[Toon Saint]

Oh come off it.

 

I'm well aware of the etymology thanks, but in reality a non Jew doesn't call a Jewish person a 'Yid' in this day and age and intend that to be taken as a warm and friendly form of address, say broadly equivalent to calling a Welshman 'Taffy' or a Scot 'Jock'. To be frank, anyone seriously suggesting such nonsense is either incredibly naive or attempting to mislead.

 

Very obviously the word is loaded with antisemitic meaning, and as we're discussing here its use in a football stadium, the hate filled atmosphere you commonly encounter at football matches is proof of exactly what is in the mind of those aiming that kind of language (and much worse) at THFC fans. Anybody who has ever attended a match where the rivalry between the two sets of fans is intense must know the truth of that.

 

As arguments go this; 'it's okay for me to call a him a Yid because some Jewish people use the word' is to be found at the fatuous end of the spectrum. Some Black people employ the 'N' word in conversation, does that entitle you to call the next Black person you meet in the street a N****r and expect him not to be offended? That is a perfectly fair analogy by the way.

 

You see the problem with accepting that the 'hissing' behavior is vile (and of course it is) but then maintaining that calling someone a 'Yid' is somehow the acceptable face of antisemitism is that there is no acceptable level of antisemitism. History teaches us what lays in store for societies that head down that path - never again.

 

You have nailed this Chapel End Charlie. Not sure why so many others are mis-understanding your points quite so much. I sense some just do it deliberately and use the forum as a vehicle to chuckle about their own prejudices, which is pretty sad really. Some, like on the homophobia thread, believe that if they have never encountered anti-semitic chanting at stadiums it cannot be a problem or it cannot exist. Well sorry guys and gals, but there is a world beyond Southampton Football Club and it isn't always pretty.

 

The debate here is about ownernship over the term 'Yid' and whether Spurs fans, who are comprised of mostly non-Jewish people, have any right to employ a term that has, over time, acquired negative and pejorative connotations. While I do not identify as Jewish myself, I do have some Jewish ancestry, and I'm uneasy with people invoking a term which despite their best intentions, does not actually belong to them.

 

The difference between terms such as the 'N' word and 'queer' is that those terms have been reclaimed by the groups that have suffered actual persecution, and in turn, been used to symbolize a mixture of resistance, pride, togetherness, equality, etc.

 

This is not the same as when Spurs fans use the term 'Yid', and when non-Jewish fans use the term it seems to legitimate a reasoning (as is evidenced on this thread) that 'if they can use it why can't we?'. This rationale seemingly gives license to fans of other clubs to continue with anti-semitic chanting which repeats the cycle of discrimination.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

What I guess I'm driving at is your use of the word "abhorrent", quite a powerful and extreme word. What is it about the word Yid that raises these extreme feelings in you? Yid has been in existence and used since well before the holocaust so why is it such a vile word?

 

And why is it fatuous to say that if a person of the Jewish faith can call another a Yid or a black person another black a ****** or a gay person another gay a queer then why can't a non Jew/black/gay do the same? Sauce for the goose and all that!

 

 

A working definition of abhorrent might be 'Inspiring disgust and loathing' which nicely sums exactly how I feel about this question. It should be quite clear by now I would have thought that all forms of Antisemitism disgust me - I say it should disgust all right thinking people.

 

Now you and your chums on here clearly find low level antisemitism to be a trivial matter of little or no consequence - a bit of a laugh even. I however grew up at a time when mainstream society was painfully aware of how awful the consequences of that wicked philosophy could be and decent people would just not tolerate it anymore. That was a wisdom born of experience. Now I've been on here long enough to know better I suppose, but I still find it depressing to see quite so many of the younger generation apparently incapable of understanding the importance of the issue.

 

Finally, the problem with this fatuous 'sauce for the goose' argument is so bloody obvious I'd have fought it would hardly need explaining. For example, while it is apparent that some black people choose to employ the 'N' word that does not grant you 'carte blanche' to insult every black person you meet! Has it not occurred to you that just because Rap music stars and certain Hollywood actors (who really should know better) are happy to use that vile word with monotonous regularity, it cannot not be implied from that that they have authority to speak for the entire black population!

 

[TheCholulaKid]

Bravo, Chapel End Charlie. Argument won - hands down.

 

I personally don't have the patience to deal with the prejudiced braindead on here - some of whom should definitely know better (you know who you are)

[Sour Mash]

A working definition of abhorrent might be 'Inspiring disgust and loathing' which nicely sums exactly how I feel about this question. It should be quite clear by now I would have thought that all forms of Antisemitism disgust me - I say it should disgust all right thinking people.

 

Now you and your chums on here clearly find low level antisemitism to be a trivial matter of little or no consequence - a bit of a laugh even. I however grew up at a time when mainstream society was painfully aware of how awful the consequences of that wicked philosophy could be and decent people would just not tolerate it anymore. That was a wisdom born of experience. Now I've been on here long enough to know better I suppose, but I still find it depressing to see quite so many of the younger generation apparently incapable of understanding the importance of the issue.

 

Finally, the problem with this fatuous 'sauce for the goose' argument is so bloody obvious I'd have fought it would hardly need explaining. For example, while it is apparent that some black people choose to employ the 'N' word that does not grant you 'carte blanche' to insult every black person you meet! Has it not occurred to you that just because Rap music stars and certain Hollywood actors (who really should know better) are happy to use that vile word with monotonous regularity, it cannot not be implied from that that they have authority to speak for the entire black population!

 

What is the "importance of the issue" of people shouting the word "Yids" at a football match?

[Toon Saint]

What is the "importance of the issue" of people shouting the word "Yids" at a football match?

 

He has explained that and more, so why do you continue with the banal questioning? Either you need to be spoon-fed information or you are just being deliberately obtuse; I suspect the latter.

 

I notice that you never really add an opinion of your own but just pick up on a phrase, ignore the context of the argument, and then turn it back on the poster. All you succeed is doing is bringing the debate back down from a decent intellectual level to that of stultifying ignorance, rehashing an idea that seems to be met with a worrying amount of acceptance on here; what is the importance of people chanting an anti-semitic term at football matches?

 

If you could present a cogent argument why chanting 'Yid' is not important (rather than just questioning posters who have articulated an intelligent, considered, well-reasoned viewpoint,) then I am all ears.

[Sour Mash]

He has explained that and more, so why do you continue with the banal questioning? Either you need to be spoon-fed information or you are just being deliberately obtuse; I suspect the latter.

 

I notice that you never really add an opinion of your own but just pick up on a phrase, ignore the context of the argument, and then turn it back on the poster. All you succeed is doing is bringing the debate back down from a decent intellectual level to that of stultifying ignorance, rehashing an idea that seems to be met with a worrying amount of acceptance on here; what is the importance of people chanting an anti-semitic term at football matches?

 

If you could present a cogent argument why chanting 'Yid' is not important (rather than just questioning posters who have articulated an intelligent, considered, well-reasoned viewpoint,) then I am all ears.

So you can't explain why it is important, but would rather have a dig at me as a poster, fair enough.

[View From The Top]

So the Jewish D/S with the "Stafford Yids" flag, is he to arrest himself and his kids or is he allowed to say he's a Yid but must he arrest any Spurs fan that aren't Jewish but refer to themselves as Yids?

[Sour Mash]

So the Jewish D/S with the "Stafford Yids" flag, is he to arrest himself and his kids or is he allowed to say he's a Yid but must he arrest any Spurs fan that aren't Jewish but refer to themselves as Yids?

Yes, as we'll be on our way to a 2nd holocaust if he doesn't....

[Toon Saint]

So you can't explain why it is important, but would rather have a dig at me as a poster, fair enough.

 

I explained why I think it is important above - don't worry, it's on this page you won't have to look far! Chapel End Charlie has done the same many times.

 

The point is if you are to keep questioning posters who have already explained their reasoning, then surely the onus is on you to explain why you don't think it is important. But you can't seem to provide more than a flippant question or a sentence on the topic.

 

If I am critical it is because you have done exactly the same to me on another thread. I'd just like to know your actual thoughts on the subject rather than seeing you constantly question others and ignoring the content of their argument(s).

[Sour Mash]

I explained why I think it is important above - don't worry, it's on this page you won't have to look far! Chapel End Charlie has done the same many times.

 

The point is if you are to keep questioning posters who have already explained their reasoning, then surely the onus is on you to explain why you don't think it is important. But you can't seem to provide more than a flippant question or a sentence on the topic.

 

If I am critical it is because you have done exactly the same to me on another thread. I'd just like to know your actual thoughts on the subject rather than seeing you constantly question others and ignoring the content of their argument(s).

Because the use of the word "Yid" at games of football, either as a form of abuse or a form of support in no-way contributes to anti-semitisim in this country. I've got very good mates who are Jewish Spurs fans who love giving it the "Yid" shout and couldn't give a f**k if an opposing fan shouts it back at them as abuse - they're more than capable at standing up for themselves and giving as good as they get. They have never experienced any kind of anti-semitism living and working in this country all their lives and consider the "Yid" thing a football thing, not something they've ever heard or used away from football. The only anti-semitism you would see in London these days is the young Hasidic Jews getting stick off the local rude boys in Stamford Hill, but that's much more to do with them being an easy and obvious target than anything anti-Jewish.

[Viking Warrior]

Skate is offensive . The flat fish has complained to the fisheries dept as they don't like be associated with the blue scum

[Toon Saint]

Because the use of the word "Yid" at games of football, either as a form of abuse or a form of support in no-way contributes to anti-semitisim in this country. I've got very good mates who are Jewish Spurs fans who love giving it the "Yid" shout and couldn't give a f**k if an opposing fan shouts it back at them as abuse - they're more than capable at standing up for themselves and giving as good as they get. They have never experienced any kind of anti-semitism living and working in this country all their lives and consider the "Yid" thing a football thing, not something they've ever heard or used away from football. The only anti-semitism you would see in London these days is the young Hasidic Jews getting stick off the local rude boys in Stamford Hill, but that's much more to do with them being an easy and obvious target than anything anti-Jewish.

 

Fair enough. How do your mates feel about other Spurs fans who aren't Jewish using the term though? Do they see it as something specific to being Jewish or has it morphed into a generalised battle-cry for Spurs fans? I guess while they might be ok using the term to defend themselves and having it volleyed back at them as abuse, is it appropriate that non-Jewish Spurs fans do the same?

 

I think the main thing that I worry about is whether non-Jewish Spurs fans actually understand the historical implications of the term, and also what motivates the opposition to be chanting 'Yid' in the first place. As Chapel End Charlie said above, when local rivals play each other (Spurs v Chelsea for instance) the atmosphere can become quite toxic. Where do you draw the line on what can be said as abuse and what cannot, especially when the intent among opposition fans is often to provoke and insult anyway? Do you allow the use of 'yid' for instance, but forbid the disgusting gas-chamber hissing? They are both varying gradations of anti-semitism but it seems strange to ban one form and claim that the other, however less offensive, can pass as mere football banter.

[hypochondriac]

Someone saying Yid in a chant at the football is not anti-semetic

[Sour Mash]

Fair enough. How do your mates feel about other Spurs fans who aren't Jewish using the term though? Do they see it as something specific to being Jewish or has it morphed into a generalised battle-cry for Spurs fans? I guess while they might be ok using the term to defend themselves and having it volleyed back at them as abuse, is it appropriate that non-Jewish Spurs fans do the same?

 

I think the main thing that I worry about is whether non-Jewish Spurs fans actually understand the historical implications of the term, and also what motivates the opposition to be chanting 'Yid' in the first place. As Chapel End Charlie said above, when local rivals play each other (Spurs v Chelsea for instance) the atmosphere can become quite toxic. Where do you draw the line on what can be said as abuse and what cannot, especially when the intent among opposition fans is often to provoke and insult anyway? Do you allow the use of 'yid' for instance, but forbid the disgusting gas-chamber hissing? They are both varying gradations of anti-semitism but it seems strange to ban one form and claim that the other, however less offensive, can pass as mere football banter.

Why do they need to understand the historical implications of the term? They use it to show their support or dislike of Tottenham Hotspur football club and their supporters, both Jewish and non-Jewish and "Yid" is just the term that has stuck. 99% of people that use it really couldn't give a stuff about Judaism one way or another, it's just the slang term used for Spurs. My mates have no problem with other Spurs fans using the term. Why would they? They know it's just the term that's became associated with Spurs supporters, nothing really more or less than that. The only people that want to make a big deal out of it are those on the outside who don't understand it.

 

The difference between making a hissing sound and using the term "Yids" is a straight forward one - One is taking the p**s out of the gassing of Jews in the Holocaust, the other is a term used to refer to Spurs/Spurs supporters.

[Hamilton Saint]

Some excellent posts on here from Chapel End Charlie and Toon Saint. And the usual inarticulate nonsense from the "pc-gone-mad" brigade. The term Yid is offensive. Don't use it. Full stop.

[Turkish]

Some excellent posts on here from Chapel End Charlie and Toon Saint. And the usual inarticulate nonsense from the "pc-gone-mad" brigade. The term Yid is offensive. Don't use it. Full stop.

 

Well that seals it then. The great Hamilton Saint has spoken, no more discussion, no more examples of Jewish Spurs fans who call themsleves Yids. Hamilton Saint doesn't like it, therefore everyone else must toe the line.

[Sour Mash]

Some excellent posts on here from Chapel End Charlie and Toon Saint. And the usual inarticulate nonsense from the "pc-gone-mad" brigade. The term Yid is offensive. Don't use it. Full stop.

With your finger on the pulse over in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, adding nothing to the debate apart from criticising other posters. Unfortunately for you Spurs fans aren't going to stop using the word any time soon, if anything it's increased as a result of this campaign.

[Whitey Grandad]

The use of the term by Spurs fans is the equivalent of standing up and saying 'I'm Spartacus'. They are showing solidarity with the Jewish section amongst them.

[Big Bad Bob]

To be honest Chapel End Charlie what I'm driving at is why the use of the word Yid is considered anti-Semitic.

 

Used on it's own (Yiddo, Yiddo), or in the chant "Yid Army, Yid Army" it can't be! To be fair even if I were to call a Jew a "****ing stupid Yid" would that really be anti-Semitic?

 

Now if I were to start a poster/Facebook campaign to have the local Jewish community targeted for abuse or were to leave a cut of bacon outside the local Synagogue then that would be anti-Semitic.

 

And yes it works the other way, if a black person were to call me a "****ing stupid Honkey" would I be mortified? Not really, I'd be upset that he's doubting my intelligence but not at the use of the word Honkey.

 

Are we now supposed to start a campaign to stop the Americans calling us Limeys or the Australians using POHMs or the French using Roast Beef......

[Hamilton Saint]

With your finger on the pulse over in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, adding nothing to the debate apart from criticising other posters. Unfortunately for you Spurs fans aren't going to stop using the word any time soon, if anything it's increased as a result of this campaign.

 

Don't need to add to the debate - Chapel End Charlie has put the case succinctly.

[Hamilton Saint]

Well that seals it then. The great Hamilton Saint has spoken, no more discussion, no more examples of Jewish Spurs fans who call themsleves Yids. Hamilton Saint doesn't like it, therefore everyone else must toe the line.

 

Thanks; I knew you'd see it my way!

[View From The Top]

So the Jewish D/S with the "Stafford Yids" flag, is he to arrest himself and his kids or is he allowed to say he's a Yid but must he arrest any Spurs fan that aren't Jewish but refer to themselves as Yids?

 

I'm still awaiting an answer from those opinionated souls regarding the above.

 

A serving police officer, whose Jewish and a Spurs fan who considers and describes himself happily as a Yid and means in solely in terms of his support for THFC.

[Johnny Bognor]

Interesting letter doing the rounds on Facebook.... A letter from a Jewish Spurs fan to David Baddiel. Must read...

 

 

 

Dear David,

 

Here we are again. The Y word. Or to refer to its real name, The C Word. Because as you and I both know this little problem is not about Spurs fans using the word Yid in a positive or negative manner. It’s about feeling uncomfortable at Chelsea games.

 

I can appreciate where you are coming from. As a Jewish Tottenham fan myself, going to Stamford Bridge is an incredibly difficult day out for me. I’m 37 and I look like a typical NW London Jew. You and I would pick each other out as Jews from 100 yards at any holiday destination on Earth. I even have a brilliant Jewish hooter to top off the look. I am what I am. Getting off the tube at Fulham Broadway though, I might as well have that yellow star sewn to my coat, because you are quite right this is not what football is about. It’s a quite vile experience and as a father of two boys, one that I won’t be putting them through until they are a lot older, if at all. To be honest though, this is your problem and not mine. We turned an insult into a positive. All on our own. The gay community did it with the word ‘queer’. It’s quite clever really. Quite why you suggest that those who turned the insult into a term of fraternity should lead the way, so those that use it as a racial insult can be told not to use it, is quite frankly illogical.

 

Chelsea, West Ham, Leeds. These are the three places where I have heard the gassing noises and felt that pang of nausea in my stomach. A pang you describe and which I’m sure you feel somewhat ashamed about. Be that as it may, Tottenham on a match day is probably the safest environment in England for a Jewish person. Isn’t that lovely? My family have 4 tickets and we are reform Jews. However I often give any spares to two ultra orthodox Spurs fans. They both wear kippot and one of them looks like every rabbi you’ve ever seen in your haggadah. They get cheered through the streets of Tottenham. They love it! People smile at them, chant ‘Yiddo’ at them and they wear their spurs shirts and their tzitzit with pride. How wonderful is that? In an era where there is so much bitterness and negativity, these two fellas can enjoy their football and their religion and feel totally safe. Thirty years ago that might have not been the case as the bananas hailed down on black wingers and coins were thrown at Jews to see if they would pick them up.

 

David, I am a huge fan of your work, but in this you are so wide of the mark that I find your view offensive. I find what you are trying to do, actually borderline anti-semetic. Don’t hide away the victims and shut them up because it makes your match day experience difficult. This is Chelsea’s problem. This is West Ham’s problem. This is Leeds United’s problem.

 

In Germany in 1933, SS men stood outside Jewish shops to deter anyone from entering. In 1934, buses, trains and park benches had seats marked out for us to sit on and our children were taught specifically anti-semetic ideas. In 1935 the Nuremberg Law was passed and Jews lost their rights to be German citizens and marriage between Jews and non-Jews became illegal. You know how this story ends.

 

In 2013 Jews and non Jews in a small corner of London, are united. Please please please, don’t f**k that up.

 

Warmest Regards,

Nick Cowan.

Edited 19 September, 2013 by Johnny Bognor

[Barry Sanchez]

Interesting letter doing the rounds on Facebook.... A letter from a Jewish Spurs fan to David Baddiel. Must read...

 

 

 

Dear David,

 

Here we are again. The Y word. Or to refer to its real name, The C Word. Because as you and I both know this little problem is not about Spurs fans using the word Yid in a positive or negative manner. It’s about feeling uncomfortable at Chelsea games.

 

I can appreciate where you are coming from. As a Jewish Tottenham fan myself, going to Stamford Bridge is an incredibly difficult day out for me. I’m 37 and I look like a typical NW London Jew. You and I would pick each other out as Jews from 100 yards at any holiday destination on Earth. I even have a brilliant Jewish hooter to top off the look. I am what I am. Getting off the tube at Fulham Broadway though, I might as well have that yellow star sewn to my coat, because you are quite right this is not what football is about. It’s a quite vile experience and as a father of two boys, one that I won’t be putting them through until they are a lot older, if at all. To be honest though, this is your problem and not mine. We turned an insult into a positive. All on our own. The gay community did it with the word ‘queer’. It’s quite clever really. Quite why you suggest that those who turned the insult into a term of fraternity should lead the way, so those that use it as a racial insult can be told not to use it, is quite frankly illogical.

 

Chelsea, West Ham, Leeds. These are the three places where I have heard the gassing noises and felt that pang of nausea in my stomach. A pang you describe and which I’m sure you feel somewhat ashamed about. Be that as it may, Tottenham on a match day is probably the safest environment in England for a Jewish person. Isn’t that lovely? My family have 4 tickets and we are reform Jews. However I often give any spares to two ultra orthodox Spurs fans. They both wear kippot and one of them looks like every rabbi you’ve ever seen in your haggadah. They get cheered through the streets of Tottenham. They love it! People smile at them, chant ‘Yiddo’ at them and they wear their spurs shirts and their tzitzit with pride. How wonderful is that? In an era where there is so much bitterness and negativity, these two fellas can enjoy their football and their religion and feel totally safe. Thirty years ago that might have not been the case as the bananas hailed down on black wingers and coins were thrown at Jews to see if they would pick them up.

 

David, I am a huge fan of your work, but in this you are so wide of the mark that I find your view offensive. I find what you are trying to do, actually borderline anti-semetic. Don’t hide away the victims and shut them up because it makes your match day experience difficult. This is Chelsea’s problem. This is West Ham’s problem. This is Leeds United’s problem.

 

In Germany in 1933, SS men stood outside Jewish shops to deter anyone from entering. In 1934, buses, trains and park benches had seats marked out for us to sit on and our children were taught specifically anti-semetic ideas. In 1935 the Nuremberg Law was passed and Jews lost their rights to be German citizens and marriage between Jews and non-Jews became illegal. You know how this story ends.

 

In 2013 Jews and non Jews in a small corner of London, are united. Please please please, don’t f**k that up.

 

Warmest Regards,

Nick Cowan.

 

Now that is a beautiful concise well written response in a very complicated matter.

[Turkish]

That won't go down well on here!

 

Come on all of you who are offended on behalf of Jews, what have you got to say to that?!!

Edited 19 September, 2013 by Turkish

[Hamilton Saint]

Here is the important quote from the article linked to by the OP. I think the qualifying statements - which I've put in bold type - are very interesting. It's worth thinking long and hard about them.

 

 

In the wake of the FA's latest stance, a Tottenham statement said: "We are acutely aware of the sensitivity of this issue.

 

"Our fans historically adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect anti-Semitic abuse. They do not use the term with any deliberate intent to cause offence.

 

"We recognise that this is a complex debate and that, in the interests of encouraging a positive and safe environment for all supporters, consideration should be given to the appropriateness and suitability of its continued use.

 

"We are already in the process of engaging with our fans and shall be consulting more widely in due course."

[Gemmel]

That won't go down well on here!

 

Come on all of you who are offended on behalf of Jews, what have you got to say to that?!!

 

Shut it Turks. Toon Saint will come along and rescue the Jews. They don't know they need rescuing , they don't want to be rescued, but rescued they will be. Not sure what my Jewish boss will make of it having seen his company value break two and a half billion, but I am sure he will appreciate it.

[Turkish]

Here is the important quote from the article linked to by the OP. I think the qualifying statements - which I've put in bold type - are very interesting. It's worth thinking long and hard about them.

 

 

In the wake of the FA's latest stance, a Tottenham statement said: "We are acutely aware of the sensitivity of this issue.

 

"Our fans historically adopted the chant as a defence mechanism in order to own the term and thereby deflect anti-Semitic abuse. They do not use the term with any deliberate intent to cause offence.

 

"We recognise that this is a complex debate and that, in the interests of encouraging a positive and safe environment for all supporters, consideration should be given to the appropriateness and suitability of its continued use.

 

"We are already in the process of engaging with our fans and shall be consulting more widely in due course."

 

Some excellent posts on here from Chapel End Charlie and Toon Saint. And the usual inarticulate nonsense from the "pc-gone-mad" brigade. The term Yid is offensive. Don't use it. Full stop.

 

Is that the sound of backtracking I can hear?

[Toon Saint]

Shut it Turks. Toon Saint will come along and rescue the Jews. They don't know they need rescuing , they don't want to be rescued, but rescued they will be. Not sure what my Jewish boss will make of it having seen his company value break two and a half billion, but I am sure he will appreciate it.

 

What's your point here Gemmel? That your boss earns so much money that he is oblivious to, does not recognise, or does not care about prejudice towards Jewish people? Another foot-in-mouth comment given the nature of the debate.

 

This isn't about anyone being needlessly offended on behalf of Jewish people, it's about having an ethical consideration for how language evolves and how it can be used to discriminate and cause harm. It's also a question of whether non-Jewish Spurs fans should be able to invoke an identity that they have no actual claim to.

 

As we have seen and read, there are obviously a fair amount of THFC fans, Jewish and non-Jewish, that are happy to use the term 'Yid'. Does this equate to the majority of Spurs fans? Does this mean they are ok with opposition fans using it against them? Maybe we should wait until THFC have heard back from all S/T supporters and published their findings before we completely deny the existence of anti-Semitic abuse, or state that its not a problem for any Jewish spurs fans at all (never mind your boss!).

 

I've certainly read enough, and heard enough from radio phone-ins that suggest that there are a number of Spurs fans that object to the use of 'Yid' altogether. Prejudice, whether racism, anti-semitism, sexism, or homophobia, is not something that simply disappears over time - it is kept alive in myriad forms, sometimes flaring up overtly, but often taking more insidious and covert forms (some of the crap posted on here as excellent examples).

 

I personally think it is a more progressive attitude to be alert to that possibility, rather than dismissing it outright as a problem because you have not encountered it first-hand. Those that do the latter - 'they don't want to be rescued' - are surely the ones that are speaking or acting on behalf of Jewish people?

Edited 19 September, 2013 by Toon Saint

[Hamilton Saint]

Is that the sound of backtracking I can hear?

 

No, it isn't. Read carefully. Think with some subtlety.

[Gemmel]

What's your point here Gemmel? That your boss earns so much money that he is oblivious to, does not recognise, or does not care about prejudice towards Jewish people? Another foot-in-mouth comment given the nature of the debate.

 

Foot in mouth comment? I think you have the monopoly on those.

 

Just to humour you , the point was that despite all of this prejudice and persecution, he has been able to build a successful company over ten years.

[Turkish]

Foot in mouth comment? I think you have the monopoly on those.

 

Just to humour you , the point was that despite all of this prejudice and persecution, he has been able to build a successful company over ten years.

 

You'd have thought with all the anti semitism around which we have now been made aware of he'd have gone bust years ago.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Some people on here are missing the point and don't seem to understand where the Country is when it comes to offensive behaviour.

 

In the Britain of 2013 to cause offense is defined as anybody taking offense, it doesn't have to be anyone involved with the incident. Therefore if anybody takes offense at this chanting, then it is offensive whether the person it is aimed at is offended, or whether the person doing the chanting is chanting about himself. If I called someone at work a yid, and somebody who overheard was offended, whether or not the Jewish person was offended is irrelevant. My job would most definitely be on the line. I had a situation where I made a joke about one of my employees which he thought was funny. Days later a women complained and there was an investigation which could have led to disciplinary action. She dropped it, provided I apologised to the guy, so I ended up apologising to a guy who neither wanted nor needed an apology. I was left in no doubt by our HR department that the guy I joked about's feelings didn't matter, I had caused offense to someone and that was the only consideration.

 

I'm not saying this is right, and I'm not saying that I agree with it, but if people are offended then it is offensive. It's only the fact that there's thousands of people chanting it which makes it unlikely anyone will face prosecution. However, if anyone did, saying "well I'm Jewish myself" or "most people aren't offended" will be not be a defence.

[Barry Sanchez]

Some people on here are missing the point and don't seem to understand where the Country is when it comes to offensive behaviour.

 

In the Britain of 2013 to cause offense is defined as anybody taking offense, it doesn't have to be anyone involved with the incident. Therefore if anybody takes offense at this chanting, then it is offensive whether the person it is aimed at is offended, or whether the person doing the chanting is chanting about himself. If I called someone at work a yid, and somebody who overheard was offended, whether or not the Jewish person was offended is irrelevant. My job would most definitely be on the line. I had a situation where I made a joke about one of my employees which he thought was funny. Days later a women complained and there was an investigation which could have led to disciplinary action. She dropped it, provided I apologised to the guy, so I ended up apologising to a guy who neither wanted nor needed an apology. I was left in no doubt by our HR department that the guy I joked about's feelings didn't matter, I had caused offense to someone and that was the only consideration.

 

I'm not saying this is right, and I'm not saying that I agree with it, but if people are offended then it is offensive. It's only the fact that there's thousands of people chanting it which makes it unlikely anyone will face prosecution. However, if anyone did, saying "well I'm Jewish myself" or "most people aren't offended" will be not be a defence.

 

The good defence I would use is you were about to say yiddish but a digestive got stuck in your throat.

[Whitey Grandad]

I had a situation where I made a joke about one of my employees which he thought was funny. Days later a women complained and there was an investigation which could have led to disciplinary action. She dropped it, provided I apologised to the guy, so I ended up apologising to a guy who neither wanted nor needed an apology. I was left in no doubt by our HR department that the guy I joked about's feelings didn't matter, I had caused offense to someone and that was the only consideration.

 

Weren't you offended by the fact that she complained? I certainly am and I wasn't even there.

[Barry Sanchez]

When I was working in NZ contracting, I used to be called snow drop by the Maori lads in Hawkes Bay, I should have claimed.

[Turkish]

Some people on here are missing the point and don't seem to understand where the Country is when it comes to offensive behaviour.

 

In the Britain of 2013 to cause offense is defined as anybody taking offense, it doesn't have to be anyone involved with the incident. Therefore if anybody takes offense at this chanting, then it is offensive whether the person it is aimed at is offended, or whether the person doing the chanting is chanting about himself. If I called someone at work a yid, and somebody who overheard was offended, whether or not the Jewish person was offended is irrelevant. My job would most definitely be on the line. I had a situation where I made a joke about one of my employees which he thought was funny. Days later a women complained and there was an investigation which could have led to disciplinary action. She dropped it, provided I apologised to the guy, so I ended up apologising to a guy who neither wanted nor needed an apology. I was left in no doubt by our HR department that the guy I joked about's feelings didn't matter, I had caused offense to someone and that was the only consideration.

 

I'm not saying this is right, and I'm not saying that I agree with it, but if people are offended then it is offensive. It's only the fact that there's thousands of people chanting it which makes it unlikely anyone will face prosecution. However, if anyone did, saying "well I'm Jewish myself" or "most people aren't offended" will be not be a defence.

 

You are of course right in what you say and that is the problem. It's spiraling out of control a situatuon when anyone could take anything as offensive, even if they dont actually see or hear it themselves. At the end of the day it should all come own to intent. If, like in this case, Tottenham fans are chanting "Yiddos" or "Yid Army" where is the offence in that? If however a group of fans start singing the "Spurs are on their way to auchwitz" Song, or stuff that is blatently anti semitic and meant to cause offence that that is fair enough.

 

As for your case, it's not uncommon in the workplace, at a place i worked out years ago a lad was almost sacked and we all got given warnings when a black lad we worked with, who we were all mates with made a silly mistake, one lad called laughed and called him "A slack t*at" and we all laughed, unfortuantely he said it within earshot of a busy ***** who misheard and thought he had said "Black t*at" she went running to HR immediately to lodge a complaint that the black fella was being racially abused and by his team. 5 of us had to have an HR hearing about it and even though we were all totally innocent given warnings for our behaviour.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Weren't you offended by the fact that she complained? I certainly am and I wasn't even there.

 

The stupid thing is the guy who I made the quip about was offended that she complained, but it didn't make a blind bit of difference.

 

Someone was offended, whether I meant to offend or whether the person I "offended" took offence, someone did and that's all that counts nowadays.