How much is Southampton Football Club worth?

[kwsaint]

Although not announced, I think I am right in thinking ML bought us for around £15million giving the creditors about 50 pence in the pound. If you were to add up all the assets and future revenue now, how much do you reckon it would add up to? Is £150million an optimistic estimate?

[Dr Who?]

To me priceless!

[kwsaint]

To me priceless!

 

Can't use a mastercard then :-)

[farawaysaint]

There are several ways to value an unlisted company All we need is the latest set of accounts.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Same as any other asset.

 

Whatever a buyer is willing to pay.

 

[trousers]

I think I am right in thinking ML bought us for around £15million giving the creditors about 50 pence in the pound.

 

All creditors were paid in full, weren't they? (Apart from Aviva and Barclays who were willing to negotiate compromise deals?)

[Glasgow_Saint]

How much did Fulham cost? That less a few million id guess

[KelvinsRightGlove]

How much did Fulham cost? That less a few million id guess

 

Out of curiosity, why would you say less?

[Olallana]

How much did Fulham cost? That less a few million id guess

 

Even considering stadiums, training grounds and facilities??

[ashleyb5443]

Out of curiosity, why would you say less?

 

London property prices?

[Glasgow_Saint]

Out of curiosity, why would you say less?

 

Just my gut feeling, maybe wrong. London + potential to make a profit.

 

Saints are almost at the limit and the next level will cost £££

 

Dont think there will be much in it. Hence why I say Fulham is a good benchmark

[CB Fry]

All creditors were paid in full, weren't they? (Apart from Aviva and Barclays who were willing to negotiate compromise deals?)

 

I didn't think we actually paid all the creditors in full - they cleared the debt/settled the CVA thing - but that is not the same as paying everyone what they were originally owed.

 

Anyway - the Fulham comparison is about right. Where we are stronger than them (academy/bigger ground) is offset by the fact we aren't in London (or for that matter, Manchester, or anywhere remotely interesting).

[Matthew Le God]

How much did Fulham cost?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23297785

 

Financial details of the takeover have yet to be officially disclosed, with media reports valuing the deal at between £150m and £200m.

[farawaysaint]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23297785

 

Not a bad return on investment for the estate of Markus if we're worth close to that now, something like a 50 million pound profit when considering money spent. (Although it is probably in reality much less.)

Edited 4 September, 2013 by farawaysaint

[Gemmel]

Markus paid 13 something million . Whether that was the end figure or the less the Surman fee is not known.

 

All creditors paid in FULL with the exception of Aviva and Barclays.

 

Aviva received an additional 4 million on us getting promoted to the Premier League. Fag packet math's suggests they may have been paid their original outlay( Certainly not the interest that the original loan would have seen) and Barclays, Well I hope they took a hit. They deserved to. As Dubai phil will tell you there is more than meets the eye on the part they played. I am absolutely not in the know, but not impressed with what I have subsequently heard (And assuming it is true). That said, we would not be where we are now without all the above taking place.

 

How much are we worth - Great question:

 

1) Golden Share

2) TV Revenue's

3) Players value amortized over the duration of their contracts

4) Youth players

5) Property

6) Stadium

7) Training Ground

That funny little farm that nearby land has been released from green belt and Oil companies are sniffing around.

9) Size of the fan base

10) Sponsorship

 

It's a tidy sum alright, but we might just find out very shortly. Something is happening and we would all do well to keep an eye out.

 

Question; How much would the Liebherr's want to walk away? - Of course we have no idea, but a double your money deal could easily be supported through a leveraged by out.

 

This is season may well be more about the off field Saints, than the On field Saints

[Turkish]

Do we still own Jacksons farm?

[Gemmel]

Do we still own Jacksons farm?

 

I think so, but it will be in the public domain if we don't.

 

And assuming we do, there is still a fixed and floating charge on assets of the Club.

[trousers]

I didn't think we actually paid all the creditors in full - they cleared the debt/settled the CVA thing

 

There was never a CVA (IIRC)...

[Matthew Le God]

I didn't think we actually paid all the creditors in full - they cleared the debt/settled the CVA thing - but that is not the same as paying everyone what they were originally owed.

 

There was never a CVA (IIRC)...

 

Southampton Football Club has never legally been in administration, so it has never needed a CVA.

 

This is where you can stump Pompey fans with the difference between the two situations, because both Portsmouth FC and the holding company CSI were legally in administration during their last financial crisis. That led to a CVA being needed to dilute the previous failed CVA.

Edited 4 September, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[AussieDog]

So if all creditors got paid in full does that mean that I have some money floating around for the shares I bought some time in the dim and distant past? Or doesn't that class as creditors?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Just my gut feeling, maybe wrong. London + potential to make a profit.

 

Saints are almost at the limit and the next level will cost £££

 

Dont think there will be much in it. Hence why I say Fulham is a good benchmark

 

Ok, fair point.

 

If we Fulham and saints were exactly the same in all respects, then I would agree.

 

But, as others have said, I think the facilities at our disposal probably more than make up for that, IMO at least.

 

Possibly, one could say they have been in the prem longer, and you may have a point. But I think that counts little looking forward, as it is no guarantee of staying there (as we proved in '05). Irrelevant anyway, as you never suggested this.

 

In summary, I disagree. I think the London influence plays a part, but the two potential assets available are of different quality, and therefore different worth.

 

Opinions innit.

[Matthew Le God]

If you use the "Fulham are in London" argument, does the same apply to Crystal Palace? Both of them don't have the facilities at the stadium/training ground/academy/Jackson's Farm land that Saints do, nor the fanbase size.

Edited 4 September, 2013 by Matthew Le God

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Fulham/hammersmith is nicer than Croydon.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I also forgot about THAT statue.

 

Worth a few extra zeros on its own.

[Gemmel]

So if all creditors got paid in full does that mean that I have some money floating around for the shares I bought some time in the dim and distant past? Or doesn't that class as creditors?

 

No mate -You were a shareholder and not a creditor. ......SUCK ON THAT WISEMAN

[SaintBobby]

If you use the "Fulham are in London" argument, does the same apply to Crystal Palace? Both of them don't have the facilities at the stadium/training ground/academy/Jackson's Farm land that Saints do, nor the fanbase size.

 

Trust me, as a Londoner, the real estate value of Craven Cottage is truly enormous.

 

Selhurst Park....hmmm...not so much (nor St Mary's tbh)

[JRM]

Trust me, as a Londoner, the real estate value of Craven Cottage is truly enormous.

 

Selhurst Park....hmmm...not so much (nor St Mary's tbh)

 

this. you could buy about 5 St Mary's with the putney riverside land value of craven cottage.

 

one of my fav grounds used to like going along there standing on Hammersmith end terrace when they were in 4th division (if saints didn't have a game)

[Picard]

Here is a 32 page paper entitled "What is the optimal method to value a football club?"

It values SFC at £57.5m (in 2012).

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Markham-paper.pdf

[Sour Mash]

Markus paid 13 something million . Whether that was the end figure or the less the Surman fee is not known.

 

All creditors paid in FULL with the exception of Aviva and Barclays.

 

Aviva received an additional 4 million on us getting promoted to the Premier League. Fag packet math's suggests they may have been paid their original outlay( Certainly not the interest that the original loan would have seen) and Barclays, Well I hope they took a hit. They deserved to. As Dubai phil will tell you there is more than meets the eye on the part they played. I am absolutely not in the know, but not impressed with what I have subsequently heard (And assuming it is true). That said, we would not be where we are now without all the above taking place.

 

How much are we worth - Great question:

 

1) Golden Share

2) TV Revenue's

3) Players value amortized over the duration of their contracts

4) Youth players

5) Property

6) Stadium

7) Training Ground

That funny little farm that nearby land has been released from green belt and Oil companies are sniffing around.

9) Size of the fan base

10) Sponsorship

 

It's a tidy sum alright, but we might just find out very shortly. Something is happening and we would all do well to keep an eye out.

 

Question; How much would the Liebherr's want to walk away? - Of course we have no idea, but a double your money deal could easily be supported through a leveraged by out.

 

This is season may well be more about the off field Saints, than the On field Saints

What have you heard then?

[Glasgow_Saint]

Ok, fair point.

 

If we Fulham and saints were exactly the same in all respects, then I would agree.

 

But, as others have said, I think the facilities at our disposal probably more than make up for that, IMO at least.

 

Possibly, one could say they have been in the prem longer, and you may have a point. But I think that counts little looking forward, as it is no guarantee of staying there (as we proved in '05). Irrelevant anyway, as you never suggested this.

 

In summary, I disagree. I think the London influence plays a part, but the two potential assets available are of different quality, and therefore different worth.

 

Opinions innit.

 

Like you say opinions and I guess we will only ever find out (maybe) when/if club is sold.

 

Fulham was sold for £150m - £200m. I can’t see us being worth that much.

 

Barclays currently values SFC at £110m BTW.

[The Kraken]

What have you heard then?

 

If it's anything akin to what I have heard (and much of which is in the public domain) its along the lines of the role Richard Fry played by being the exec at Barclays responsible for cutting our overdraft (and hence sending us into administration), then subsequently becoming a partner at Begbies Traynor, who were our administrator.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1197918/Charles-Sale-Whats-Fry-cooking-Saints-now.html

 

It was also somewhat fishy that, after lowering our overdraft during the season from £5M to £4M, Barclays couldn't/wouldn't wait another month or so to allow us to make the summer transfers that would have reduced the overdraft level to comfortably within the newly set parameters.

Edited 5 September, 2013 by The Kraken

[holepuncture]

Markus paid 13 something million . Whether that was the end figure or the less the Surman fee is not known.

 

All creditors paid in FULL with the exception of Aviva and Barclays.

 

Aviva received an additional 4 million on us getting promoted to the Premier League. Fag packet math's suggests they may have been paid their original outlay( Certainly not the interest that the original loan would have seen) and Barclays, Well I hope they took a hit. They deserved to. As Dubai phil will tell you there is more than meets the eye on the part they played. I am absolutely not in the know, but not impressed with what I have subsequently heard (And assuming it is true). That said, we would not be where we are now without all the above taking place.

 

It's a tidy sum alright, but we might just find out very shortly. Something is happening and we would all do well to keep an eye out.

 

Question; How much would the Liebherr's want to walk away? - Of course we have no idea, but a double your money deal could easily be supported through a leveraged by out.

 

This is season may well be more about the off field Saints, than the On field Saints

 

Barclays currently values SFC at £110m BTW.

 

Always ahead of the game Glasgow, respect.

 

 

If it's anything akin to what I have heard (and much of which is in the public domain) its along the lines of the role Richard Fry played by being the exec at Barclays responsible for cutting our overdraft (and hence sending us into administration), then subsequently becoming a partner at Begbies Traynor, who were our administrator.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1197918/Charles-Sale-Whats-Fry-cooking-Saints-now.html

 

It was also somewhat fishy that, after lowering our overdraft during the season from £5M to £4M, Barclays couldn't/wouldn't wait another month or so to allow us to make the summer transfers that would have reduced the overdraft level to comfortably within the newly set parameters.

 

I wonder if Gemmel is going beyond the tale of Richard Fry at Barclays and Begbies? What the Barclays exec did was clearly full of self interest, though to me reading between Gemmels lines would suggest that there is still something lurking in the shadows.. a Barclays backed leveraged buyout, secured against the parachutes & assets, Cortese becomes the owner, with his tax haven lending buddies fronting his deposit/initial payment?

 

Unfortunately if we are relying on Dubai Phil to spill the beans, we are going to have to piece together his acid-esque rants piece by piece, deducting golf as we go..

[Gemmel]

Always ahead of the game Glasgow, respect.

 

I wonder if Gemmel is going beyond the tale of Richard Fry at Barclays and Begbies? What the Barclays exec did was clearly full of self interest, though to me reading between Gemmels lines would suggest that there is still something lurking in the shadows.. a Barclays backed leveraged buyout, secured against the parachutes & assets, Cortese becomes the owner, with his tax haven lending buddies fronting his deposit/initial payment?

 

Unfortunately if we are relying on Dubai Phil to spill the beans, we are going to have to piece together his acid-esque rants piece by piece, deducting golf as we go..

 

No mate I wasn't inferring any connection between Barclays and a potential leveraged buyout, simply that the timing of withdrawing of our overdraft and the subsequent career path of one of the main players, raises an eyebrow or two.

 

I do think that something is going on ownership wise, with the reduction of share capital and solvency statements, but I could be way off track.

 

Any leveraged buy out is dependent on what the Liebherrs are prepared to walk away with. A double your money (That's a 35 million profit in less than 5 years) exit leaves us vulnerable to that in my opinion, but they could equally value it at 100 million and stay around forever or until they get what they want.

 

It's all guess work, but very interested to see whether last years charge has been settled and whether any additional loans / charges were taken out to fund this seasons spending.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

this. you could buy about 5 St Mary's with the putney riverside land value of craven cottage.

 

one of my fav grounds used to like going along there standing on Hammersmith end terrace when they were in 4th division (if saints didn't have a game)

 

Craven Cottage is hardly massive though, and probably has limited scope for development.

 

If they were to try and expand, I imagine it would be a very costly project, or they would have to relocate - which in turn is probably much more expensive than anywhere else.

[100%Red&White]

Craven Cottage is hardly massive though, and probably has limited scope for development.

 

If they were to try and expand, I imagine it would be a very costly project, or they would have to relocate - which in turn is probably much more expensive than anywhere else.

 

Their expansion plans are for the stand that faces the Thames and will include money-making apartments as part of the redevelopment. It's been reported in the past that they've had an eye on Stamford Bridge if Chelsea moved away but I would think it would be far more lucrative for Abramovich to sell their plot just off the Kings Road for housing.

 

Fulham are in the very handy position of being in West London right alongside the river. Due to location, as long as they remain in the Premier League, they’ll always have the potential to attract some top players who will fancy the lifestyle. And if they ever relocated that patch of land will be a goldmine. They’re a smaller club than Saints in terms of stadium/hardcore support but financially they must be worth considerably more.

[Micky]

Craven Cottage is hardly massive though, and probably has limited scope for development.

 

If they were to try and expand, I imagine it would be a very costly project, or they would have to relocate - which in turn is probably much more expensive than anywhere else.

 

Your right - didn't realise that they currently get about 25k.

 

With this:

 

http://www.fulhamfc.com/stadium-development/design-concept/architecture

 

Very nice as it is - it only increases capacity by 5k. Obviously there will be other benefits - apartments, retail outlets etc, but in terms of bums on seats it does look a little limited.

[100%Red&White]

Your right - didn't realise that they currently get about 25k.

 

With this:

 

http://www.fulhamfc.com/stadium-development/design-concept/architecture

 

Very nice as it is - it only increases capacity by 5k. Obviously there will be other benefits - apartments, retail outlets etc, but in terms of bums on seats it does look a little limited.

 

Which includes about 20k Fulham fans and the rest aways/neutrals. Will the extra 5k seats be another 'Neutrals' area?

[Sour Mash]

If it's anything akin to what I have heard (and much of which is in the public domain) its along the lines of the role Richard Fry played by being the exec at Barclays responsible for cutting our overdraft (and hence sending us into administration), then subsequently becoming a partner at Begbies Traynor, who were our administrator.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1197918/Charles-Sale-Whats-Fry-cooking-Saints-now.html

 

It was also somewhat fishy that, after lowering our overdraft during the season from £5M to £4M, Barclays couldn't/wouldn't wait another month or so to allow us to make the summer transfers that would have reduced the overdraft level to comfortably within the newly set parameters.

Yes strange that, but my question was more aimed at what might be happening off the field this season - apologies, should have made it clearer.

[Gemmel]

What have you heard then?

 

Its not what I have heard - It's all that there in the public domain.

 

It appears that Cortese is no longer a Director of the group company (That is how I read it- But I could be wrong) and the company then issued a "Solvency statement" followed by a reduction in share capital. This all happened after the showdown meeting between Cortese and Katrina.

 

I could of course be adding 2 + 2 and making 5. But I don't think it is a huge leap of faith to think something might be happening.

[farawaysaint]

Here is a 32 page paper entitled "What is the optimal method to value a football club?"

It values SFC at £57.5m (in 2012).

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Markham-paper.pdf

 

Comprehensive and the evidence backs their valuations but then how the hell are Reading worth more than us in that calculation?

[Real-Saints-Wear-Stripes]

As a rule of thumb, a company is worth three to four times average annual profit, plus disposable assets.

[ericb]

It's interesting actually since the likelihood is that our "worth" will plateaux at some point. In league one we were very good value for money since we had the infrastructure in place, an academy that was already good and were relatively large for the lower leagues.

 

In the premier league the return of investment is likely to be far lower, since we're already pushing up against how far we can reach without serious money being pumped in, just look at liverpool/spurs etc, but that means investment is as attractive since the spend/write off would have to be significantly higher than the purchase value of the club.

 

Especially when you consider that spend doesn't in the slightest guarantee you success (which equals profit). So arguably now is the best time to sell for the family, since we're unlikely to break the 40,000 gate and european slots without serious financial backing - and neither of those are definite - that'd eat into any profit they've achieved so far.