A serious transfer window review thread...

[Saint Garrett]

Why has puncheon been elevated to hero status on here?

 

He really isn't that great.

 

For the same reason that Tadanari, Sharp and Chaplow have all had the same reaction.....they left/injured/out the team.

[buctootim]

Well, okay. Why didn't Puncheon take free kicks?

 

Anyway, this shouldn't be about whether Ramirez is better than Puncheon, it's about the fact that the two are not worlds apart in terms of contribution last season but that's not really reflected in our attitudes towards them.

 

To an extent, though it's rather more complicated than that. I'm not as concerned as the club over who performs best, so long as somebody does.

 

I just wonder how different the reactions would have been had Ramirez gone out.

 

I think people are entitled to expect more from Ramirez because of the price tag - after all you could have got another Lovren and a quality back up to Boruc for the money - although some of the criticism of him is over the top. Perception rather than reality also contributes, Puncheon was also usually committed (read energetic), Ramirez's languid style ala MLT can make him look disinterested and lazy.

Edited 3 September, 2013 by buctootim

[egg]

'Giving a chance' to players like Hammond, Chaplow and Sharp would probably have seen us end up like Reading. Relegated, despite trying our hardest. Evidence of this is in JRod, who was incuded in the Championship team of the year (and therefore supposedly better than Sharp). He is a better all round player than Sharp and yet struggles for consistent performances in the Prem, only scoring 6 Prem goals last year.

 

Exactly. You don't build a team on sentiment. Chaplow, Sharp, Hammond etc were good enough to get us up but the club has outgrown their ability. You only "deserve" a chance if you're good enough. Sharp, and the others, aren't.

 

I don't buy all this we blocked a move rubbish either. There's no evidence of it and why would we. We moved Puncheon on to a prem side and unless anyone can give a credible explanation I can't accept we would treat Sharp differently.

 

On subject. Decent window. The jury was always out for me on Vw and still is but the others look good. We've kept the good uns and tied down Shaw and others. We're in good shape - B+

[alpine_saint]

Is there anyway to choose people who can view a thread? Just so that proper football discussions can be had without some people playing oneupmanship and showing off to their mates?

 

Un-sodding-believable. This site has hit a new low.

 

Both Glasgow and I are discussing the football; just because you dont like what we are saying.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Thats because he took free kicks. Puncheon didnt.

 

But still, looks like quite an overreaction to Ramirez don't you think?

[Dig Dig]

Do goals and assists count less from set pieces?

 

He didn't score any free kicks and I can't recall any assists from them either...

[St Marco]

By far the best transfer window we have had in my lifetime. Bringing in three international players who were starters for their teams in the CL is mind blowing. Never thought I would see the day. Around this time last year our most expensive purchase was Rory Delap, sort of puts it into perspective doesn't it?

 

Some will be unhappy but I think they would of been unhappy no matter what we did. If we paid £100m for Bale, £100m for Ronaldo they would say some of that money should of been spent on defence/keeper etc. Some people just like to complain for the sake of complaining. Some famous guy said "we now live in the age of the professional complainer". Some on this forum prove those remarks to be true.

 

If we go back a few years and were told this would be our line up

 

--------------------Boruc (international)------------------

Clyne (u21 int)--Lovren(int)---Fonte-----Shaw (u21 int)

-------------------------------------------------------------

--------------Wagamama(int)--Morgan

Ramirez(int)-----------------------------------Lallana(was called up to int squad)

--------------Lambert(int)---------Osvaldo(int)

Not to mention players like Rodriguez/Cork/Davis/Yos etc

 

I think people would of thought you were crazy!

 

At some-point our squad is going to click and some team is going to get a hammering.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

football is being discussed? I cant see any discussion about 1D or Eastenders??

 

by proper discussion do you mean a thread where everyone simply just agrees with you and pats you on the back?

 

Unbelievable Jeff

 

No, of course not, but it seems very much like some people only post to get a reaction from others, with little thought or any proof of what they are posting. It seems the vast majority are good posters, but there does seem to be an element/group of posters who seem to bang the same drum over and over. Perhaps they're all the same poster? I'd just prefer not to see their posts if possible.

[buctootim]

But still, looks like quite an overreaction to Ramirez don't you think?

 

Is natural human reaction. People had low expectations of Puncheon which he exceeded. People were hyped up to expect amazing things of Ramirez which he has fallen short on, perhaps unsurprsingly.

[Glasgow_Saint]

No, of course not, but it seems very much like some people only post to get a reaction from others, with little thought or any proof of what they are posting. It seems the vast majority are good posters, but there does seem to be an element/group of posters who seem to bang the same drum over and over. Perhaps they're all the same poster? I'd just prefer not to see their posts if possible.

 

You can add posters to ignore - you wont see their/my posts then.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Un-sodding-believable. This site has hit a new low.

 

Both Glasgow and I are discussing the football; just because you dont like what we are saying.

 

Who said I was talking about you?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You can add posters to ignore - you wont see their/my posts then.

 

How do you add people?

 

Don't worry, found it.

Edited 3 September, 2013 by Unbelievable Jeff
Found how to add people to ignore.

[Olallana]

Is natural human reaction. People had low expectations of Puncheon which he exceeded. People were hyped up to expect amazing things of Ramirez which he has fallen short on, perhaps unsurprsingly.

 

So basically all the ones (wum´s) complaining about Ramirez believed the hype, even though they themself always claim that they are the grounded ones with small expectations on the team and think that everyone who believes the team can be 8th or better are deluded...?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Is natural human reaction. People had low expectations of Puncheon which he exceeded. People were hyped up to expect amazing things of Ramirez which he has fallen short on, perhaps unsurprsingly.

 

Ok, cool, well at least you can admit you're overreacting.

[Solid Saint]

I've got to say this has been an excellent transfer window, when all is said and done. Keeping your best young players has NEVER been our strong point, yet here we are with some of the country's best young talent (very proud). I support the club, manager and the players he has brought in. Never a better time to be a Saints fan.

[Dig Dig]

Is natural human reaction. People had low expectations of Puncheon which he exceeded. People were hyped up to expect amazing things of Ramirez which he has fallen short on, perhaps unsurprsingly.

 

The expectations of Ramirez were never justified. He's good young player signed for what was a relatively large amount of money for us. I wonder if Everton fans are now expecting a wonder season from James McCarthy signed for the same price. In todays market, £12M for an attacking player should get you a decent and competent player in the prem but you won't get a world beater.

 

Ramirez contributed by scoring enough and assisting enough to help us get the points needed to stay up.

[Colinjb]

How do you add people?

 

At the top of the forum, where it says 'Welcome,'

 

Go to Settings > My Settings "Edit Ignore List"

 

You can then add/remove whoever you want. You will still see that they have posted but it will block the text.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The expectations of Ramirez were never justified. He's good young player signed for what was a relatively large amount of money for us. I wonder if Everton fans are now expecting a wonder season from James McCarthy signed for the same price. In todays market, £12M for an attacking player should get you a decent and competent player in the prem but you won't get a world beater.

 

Ramirez contributed by scoring enough and assisting enough to help us get the points needed to stay up.

 

This makes complete sense to me.

[Solid Saint]

 

Ramirez contributed by scoring enough and assisting enough to help us get the points needed to stay up.

 

 

This is true. Although I am hoping for more from him this season.

[Joensuu]

The Norwich game ?

 

How can a team spend so much money and play so bad ???

 

Alps, all teams win, all teams lose. Both Norwich and ourselves have strengthened over the summer. We didn't play well, and a loss was probably the fairest result. If we were talking about 2 or 3 months of bad results you'd have a valid point. We are talking about 1 game that despite playing badly, could have gone either way.

 

If we extend your logic to it's conclusion Chelsea, Man City and PSG would never lose a game again. They will. Money being spend improving a team does not make that team infallible. It just increases the likelihood that they will pick up more points over an extended run of games.

 

Or, IMHO, you are displaying a knee-jerk reaction to a single game, and need to calm down until we have seen enough games to form a real opinion. You've returned to your default position of 'panic', and while that in itself is somewhat endearing, it feeds the trolls and WUMs who rigorously peruse every negative thread they can.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Frankly, once a player is on the pitch, the price they cost is irrelevant. It's what they do there that matters.

 

Should we only sign players for £1m, so that we have low expectations for them all, and they can't disappoint and can look good only in comparison to this? We took this sort of approach in the early 00's - and look what happened there.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

At the top of the forum, where it says 'Welcome,'

 

Go to Settings > My Settings "Edit Ignore List"

 

You can then add/remove whoever you want. You will still see that they have posted but it will block the text.

 

Cheers Colin, will give that a go.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

This is true. Although I am hoping for more from him this season.

 

I think he needs to be played more from the start in my opinion.

[Saint Charlie]

Just been told by someone who would definitely know that no bids from Prem teams came in for Billy this summer.

 

Also that Forest didn't want him (which was pretty obvious) and loan approaches were made by Barnsley, Doncaster and Sheff Wed, all of which wanted to pay far less than 50% of his wages hence being turned down.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Frankly, once a player is on the pitch, the price they cost is irrelevant. It's what they do there that matters.

 

Should we only sign players for £1m, so that we have low expectations for them all, and they can't disappoint and can look good only in comparison to this? We took this sort of approach in the early 00's - and look what happened there.

 

The worst thing was that most of them disappointed even at that price

[buctootim]

Ok, cool, well at least you can admit you're overreacting.

 

Lame hypocrisy from the poster demanding serious football discussion. £1m Puncheon contributed the same as £13m Ramirez. Spin doesnt change that.

[thesaint78]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23944355

 

Could Sharp go back to the Blades on loan now they have an injection of cash?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Just been told by someone who would definitely know that no bids from Prem teams came in for Billy this summer.

 

Also that Forest didn't want him (which was pretty obvious) and loan approaches were made by Barnsley, Doncaster and Sheff Wed, all of which wanted to pay far less than 50% of his wages hence being turned down.

 

That's fair enough then. Perhaps a short term loan can be arranged now instead of a season long loan. Is there any way he can now be added to the squad? I am hoping he will be now, and that is why Mayuka was allowed out on loan (as we had Sharp who could be added to the squad).

[KelvinsRightGlove]

This is true. Although I am hoping for more from him this season.

 

 

I think he needs to be played more from the start in my opinion.

 

Agree with both of these points.

 

He was ok last season, had some good games and went missing in some.

 

Again, he is a young player, playing a mid-table (being polite about last season if anything). If he was consistently the best player on the pitch, taking on the whole team, scoring 5, and making 7 in each game he would be playing for the Utd/Barca/Real's of this world.

 

It beggars belief that the same people that say it is impossible for Saints to break into the top 4/6/8 are the ones that demand all our players have great games every week - and that the team play great every week - i.e. do what the title winners do.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

The worst thing was that most of them disappointed even at that price

 

Did they ever!

 

I was so excited in the summer of '03, then we signed Neil McCann for £1.5m.

 

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Lame hypocrisy from the poster demanding serious football discussion. £1m Puncheon contributed the same as £13m Ramirez. Spin doesnt change that.

 

Blimey, that's a bit harsh don't you think? Why are you reacting like that?

 

"Is natural human reaction. People had low expectations of Puncheon which he exceeded. People were hyped up to expect amazing things of Ramirez which he has fallen short on, perhaps unsurprsingly."

 

You were saying that because of the way that we perceive their price then this can lead to an overreaction based on the money spent, not based on what the player has actually done? Yes you'd expect Ramirez to be better, and he has been better than Puncheon imho.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Just been told by someone who would definitely know that no bids from Prem teams came in for Billy this summer.

 

Also that Forest didn't want him (which was pretty obvious) and loan approaches were made by Barnsley, Doncaster and Sheff Wed, all of which wanted to pay far less than 50% of his wages hence being turned down.

 

I'm still waiting for Glasgow to share his source on this 3 Premier League bids for Sharp. I'm not sure which I find harder to believe, this claim - or the part that we were unwilling to sell to Premiership rivals - considering we just let Puncheon move on loan to Crystal Palace. Considering we actually used Puncheon last year - he would be considered a bigger threat?

 

Find the above quote much more believable, and matches the snippets I heard elsewhere. I've heard from a couple of Doncaster fans (my family are from there) that there was definitely interest from their end, but ultimately there were financial hurdles that could not be overcome.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Blimey, that's a bit harsh don't you think? Why are you reacting like that?

 

"Is natural human reaction. People had low expectations of Puncheon which he exceeded. People were hyped up to expect amazing things of Ramirez which he has fallen short on, perhaps unsurprsingly."

 

You were saying that because of the way that we perceive their price then this can lead to an overreaction based on the money spent, not based on what the player has actually done? Yes you'd expect Ramirez to be better, and he has been better than Puncheon imho.

 

I feel quite confident in saying that if we were to have said on July 1st:

 

"Right, both players (puncheon & gaston) are for sale, 1 day auction, highest bidder wins" (granted not remotely likely to happen, but go with it for a second)

 

That Gaston would receive both a higher offer than for Puncheon, and would end up at a team that finishes higher in the league - if even in the same league.

Edited 3 September, 2013 by KelvinsRightGlove

[Saints boy in Leeds]

I think I'd rather have taken Lukaku & Barry on loan than paid the ridiculous sums we coughed up for Wanyama and Osvaldo.

Got to hand it to Everton. They offloaded Anichebe for £6m - One of the worst strikers I've seen in the premiership and had Utd's pants down with Fellani. They then landed Lukaku, one of the most impressive players in the prem last season and brought in some quality in McCarthy and Barry.

 

Lukaku & Barry on loan or Wanyama & Osvaldo for close to €30m. I know which I'd rather have had.

 

Did you see Barry play last season ? I take it you saw his own goal at SMS ?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I fell quite confident in saying that if we were to have said on July 1st:

 

"Right, both players (puncheon & gaston) are for sale, 1 day auction, highest bidder wins" (granted not remotely likely to happen, but go with it for a second)

 

That Gaston would receive both a higher offer than for Puncheon, and would end up at a team that finishes higher in the league - if even in the same league.

 

Yep, agree. I assume Buctootim would bid more for Puncheon, but then he does come across as more of an Ian Holloway than a Jose Mourinho...

[Killers Knee]

We now have a good squad, the best since the 80's. We have strengthened well through the spine, we still need some players to find form and MP needs time to find a balance to the first team. I am not concerned about the width/pace issue, I believe JRod and Ramirez can offer that. I am concerned about the Jack/Spider engine to the team no longer functioning and I would have liked to see an international statesman come in at AMC to challenge/train/mentor Lallana for a year, but I suppose that is stuff of computer games.

 

Defensively we look good, Fonte seems to have improved or Lovren is picking up the slack very impressively, either way that pairing is working well. I would like to see another LWB to challenge Shaw, the current incumbent offers no challenge whatsoever.

 

Now looking forward to the balance being found, players finding form, some good results and a surprise in the January window.

[hutch]

Is there anyway to choose people who can view a thread? Just so that proper football discussions can be had without some people playing oneupmanship and showing off to their mates?

People on here have mates?

[Dig Dig]

Did you see Barry play last season ? I take it you saw his own goal at SMS ?

 

Probably why he would rather Barry was here. A very calm and composed finish!

[kpturner]

Lukaku & Barry on loan or Wanyama & Osvaldo for close to €30m. I know which I'd rather have had.

So you would rather have a team of somebody else's players rather than a team of our own players?

[egg]

So you would rather have a team of somebody else's players rather than a team of our own players?

 

What makes you think that loan players will give less for the cause than permanent players, particularly in the build up to a world cup? If anything loan players can put more effort in as they are either trying to prove something to their parent clubs or looking for a permanent move. We've got history on that front.

[Dig Dig]

What makes you think that loan players will give less for the cause than permanent players, particularly in the build up to a world cup? If anything loan players can put more effort in as they are either trying to prove something to their parent clubs or looking for a permanent move. We've got history on that front.

 

We do indeed, Jacob Mellis was incredible.

[philelec]

At the top of the forum, where it says 'Welcome,'

 

Go to Settings > My Settings "Edit Ignore List"

 

You can then add/remove whoever you want. You will still see that they have posted but it will block the text.

 

Thanks, I also never knew how to do this, now I can get rid of Barry Sanchez!

[KelvinsRightGlove]

What makes you think that loan players will give less for the cause than permanent players, particularly in the build up to a world cup? If anything loan players can put more effort in as they are either trying to prove something to their parent clubs or looking for a permanent move. We've got history on that front.

 

It's not just that though is it.

 

Everton have paid a fee - probably several £m to have Lukaku on loan for the season. On top of this they are also paying his wages - most likely another few £m over the course of the season. I'm confident he will do well for them - he is a very good player. Thing is, at the end of the season he will go back to Chelsea and they will have nothing to show for that outlay.

 

In the case of Wanyama, we own the player. Therefore if he does well for us, and other clubs are interested we stand in a good position to recoup what we paid for him or even turn a profit. Money which can then be used to reinvest in the squad, purchasing their replacement.

 

When Lukaku goes back to Chelsea, Everton will have lost a very good player, who may even turn out to be a key player for them - with no remuneration whatsoever. Basically, that is an unsustainable model. In the long run, that is a more costly tactic to take.

[Village Saint]

Is natural human reaction. People had low expectations of Puncheon which he exceeded. People were hyped up to expect amazing things of Ramirez which he has fallen short on, perhaps unsurprsingly.

 

I had very low expectations of Puncheon. Apart from one surprisingly sound spell of about 6 matches last year he certainly didn't exceed them. Overall given the undoubted talent he had his perfomances were erratic (as they had been at his previous clubs) and he gave us precious little return for a lot of money (three and a half years wages so far and still counting).

[egg]

We do indeed, Jacob Mellis was incredible.

 

I was thinking more the likes of Saganowski (I think) who was great as loanee but awful with the security of a contract.

[channonwindmill]

Thing is, at the end of the season he will go back to Chelsea and they will have nothing to show for that outlay.

 

He might score the goals that get them a place in Europe, either through the league or one of the cups.

[Smirking_Saint]

He scored one more than Gaston Ramirez, who was an abject failure according to most on here. And also created 2 less.

 

Yet one is utterly useless and should be hounded out the club, the other is a massive loss to the club.

 

Am I the only one that struggles to see how people's reasoning works around here?

 

Yes Puncheon dribbled on the ball a bit more than some of our other players, but he was not THAT effective at doing so. His inefficiency at decision making ultimately slowed him down, by the time he had done all his unnecessary extra turns and drag backs, he had undone any territory he gained by running.

 

Headless chicken. Reminded me of Fabrice at times.

 

Exactly, this place is getting tiresome

[Minsk]

He scored one more than Gaston Ramirez, who was an abject failure according to most on here. And also created 2 less.

 

Yet one is utterly useless and should be hounded out the club, the other is a massive loss to the club.

 

Am I the only one that struggles to see how people's reasoning works around here?

 

Yes Puncheon dribbled on the ball a bit more than some of our other players, but he was not THAT effective at doing so. His inefficiency at decision making ultimately slowed him down, by the time he had done all his unnecessary extra turns and drag backs, he had undone any territory he gained by running.

 

Headless chicken. Reminded me of Fabrice at times.

 

I too am interested to know where this has come from?

 

I have only seen Glasgow post this, any where.

 

If he is willing to show where he gained this insight from, then fair enough. Considering he likes to make things up from time-to-time, I will take this with a pinch of salt for the time being.

 

Some of us like to base our opinions on facts and reality.

 

Excellent posts.

[Minsk]

He scored one more than Gaston Ramirez, who was an abject failure according to most on here. And also created 2 less.

 

Yet one is utterly useless and should be hounded out the club, the other is a massive loss to the club.

 

Am I the only one that struggles to see how people's reasoning works around here?

 

Yes Puncheon dribbled on the ball a bit more than some of our other players, but he was not THAT effective at doing so. His inefficiency at decision making ultimately slowed him down, by the time he had done all his unnecessary extra turns and drag backs, he had undone any territory he gained by running.

 

Headless chicken. Reminded me of Fabrice at times.

 

Lol at the crown court behaviour when someone says something negative, yet the Clappies can say what they like....

 

A typical Alpine post.

 

You appear to be the only gullible one who is taken in with Glasgow's claims without questioning them; purely because they meet with your agenda.

 

It comes as no surprise that Glasgow has replied to many posts since mine, yet my one remains ignored. I wonder why????

[Glasgow_Saint]

A typical Alpine post.

 

You appear to be the only gullible one who is taken in with Glasgow's claims without questioning them; purely because they meet with your agenda.

 

It comes as no surprise that Glasgow has replied to many posts since mine, yet my one remains ignored. I wonder why????

 

I notice that not a single person has questioned or challenged Charlie or demanded to know his source? is that purely because his claims meet with your agenda? with respects to Charlie he has absolutely no pedigree or history having contacts its just all very conveniently timed

 

I have PM'd a select number of people over the summer with additional details of my source - after a summer of "guessing" so many outcomes and signings if I haven’t convinced you by now I never will so pointless me sharing or responding to your type of poster.

 

 

 

makes no difference to me if you trust me or not - I simply post what I have been told