The 4-2-3-1 system - IDIOTS guide (idiots, please read this)

[mcbendy]

Reading through the post-match thread has had steam coming out of my ears!

 

Comments like:

 

"one of Wanyama and Schneiderlin needs to get in the box"

"we need to sign some wingers" etc

 

I feel compelled to explain...

 

When THEY have the ball:

- We aim to press from the front and win the ball, ideally, in their half. It is a team press, starting with the forward players.

- If the opponents get past the press and build momentum, we have two DMs to try and break up play, with a 'standard' back four behind them. Wide attacking players need to track back to help with overlapping runs down the flanks (so high fitness levels required).

 

When WE have the ball:

- We do not play with conventional wingers. Clear? Understand? The width is supposed to be supplied by overlapping runs from our (very fit and very talented) fullbacks. Until Clyne came on in the second half this wasn't happening as it should, despite our dominance in possession. Why they lacked the confidence to get up the pitch I'm not sure...

- The idea of playing with TWO DM's (Wanyama and Schneiderlin) is that their tactical discipline should allow the fullbacks to have the confidence to push forwards, knowing that the two centrebacks and DMs are covering in behind them.

[Smirking_Saint]

Now that we have a mobile striker, that can play off the ladt man we can arguably capitalise on winning the ball high up the pitch and transitioning quickly into an attacking area, the full backs overlap and provide width out wide which will put balls into the box for Lambert or osvaldo.

 

Attacking wise we set up as so

 

-----------GK-----------

----CB ---DM---CB----

FB-----DM---AM------FB

----AM----ST----AM-----

 

But it obviously looks a lot prettier, and obviously it doesnt always happen that way but essentially thats the transition

 

This is also how we press high up and attempt to stiffle the counter attack, obviously you can see why the system is susceptible to the longball and probably why Wanyama is here

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted that the other night, its basically 4231 defending and 343 attacking

[Turkish]

We'd be better off reverting to 4-4-2 with a couple of wingers and big man up top and a small man picking up the flicks. Long ball into the mixer from whatever player has it. It's the only way some of our Mong fans will understand what is going on the pitch.

[Appy]

I like it when fans shout at players to get it forward (hoof it), then if we rarely do, we lose it, they moan.

 

Morons.

[Graffito]

Reading through the post-match thread has had steam coming out of my ears!

 

Comments like:

 

"one of Wanyama and Schneiderlin needs to get in the box"

"we need to sign some wingers" etc

 

I feel compelled to explain...

 

When THEY have the ball:

- We aim to press from the front and win the ball, ideally, in their half. It is a team press, starting with the forward players.

- If the opponents get past the press and build momentum, we have two DMs to try and break up play, with a 'standard' back four behind them. Wide attacking players need to track back to help with overlapping runs down the flanks (so high fitness levels required).

 

When WE have the ball:

- We do not play with conventional wingers. Clear? Understand? The width is supposed to be supplied by overlapping runs from our (very fit and very talented) fullbacks. Until Clyne came on in the second half this wasn't happening as it should, despite our dominance in possession. Why they lacked the confidence to get up the pitch I'm not sure...

- The idea of playing with TWO DM's (Wanyama and Schneiderlin) is that their tactical discipline should allow the fullbacks to have the confidence to push forwards, knowing that the two centrebacks and DMs are covering in behind them.

 

First two games of the season we haven't played the pressing game of last season, possibly due to having played two sides that sit back, a tactic we struggled with last season. Our build up play has been slower and more deliberate (should move the ball quicker imo).

 

The fullbacks didn't get forward because Sunderland packed midfield and doubled up on Shaw and I suspect Chambers may have been asked to play cautiously since he's inexperienced. It did improve on the left when Clyne came on.

[ant]

Some good points. Our system is very fluid and changeable, which it pretty much has to be if you're going to get anywhere in modern football. Today I thought we fell down a little on the pace of our buildup play - at times we looked surprisingly static which certainly didn't help.

 

Expanding on the above - yes, attacking midfielders/CAMs line up on the left and right of the CF (who in turn is sometimes a third, more central CAM) and no, they are not traditional wingers. With a 4-2-3-1 the role of a CAM is to act as an outlet for their third of the pitch's width, often releasing the fullbacks thereafter. When we're on the attack they do not push especially wide; rather their job is to support the striker or to act as a backup striker/pack the box if the actual striker has dropped deeper to receive and distribute the ball. Instead of moving straight along the touchline, their attacking runs should be curved into the box or a diagonal interchange.

 

Essentially it means there's a great deal more flexibility in the sort of the player that can be assigned to the CAM position. On his day Rodriguez does a fantastic job as a CAM because he likes to run at defenders and drifts centrally as he does so (especially effective if a teammate times their run to pull away a defender). With a flat 4-4-2 he'd have no ready-made place in the squad other than as a forward. Ramirez is another good example - on his day, 4-2-3-1 allows him to play a creative role anywhere along that attacking 3.

 

The second half today also showed it may be how we look to fit both Lambert and Osvaldo into the same system - Dani played all the way across that line at various times.

[The9]

Not being funny, but Schneiderlin seemed to have spent most of the first half on the shoulder of their centre backs and in no way shape or form was playing as a defensive midfielder of any kind.

[dubai_phil]

Not being funny, but Schneiderlin seemed to have spent most of the first half on the shoulder of their centre backs and in no way shape or form was playing as a defensive midfielder of any kind.

 

Starting to think we don't need the 2 DM's when we play teams that "park the bus"

 

Saw it couple of times last season with MP when he took off a DM. Yesterday we looked much better when we put a more AM into the centre and almost played

 

4-1-1-3-1

 

Agree that the movement of SRL JRod & Osvaldo looked far better in the 2nd half & gives Gaston more options to find the pass. AL started to look better in that role and (to our surprise) had a shot today (even IF it nearly landed in the Kingsland)

Still do find it funny that even after one season in the PL there are so many Mike Bassett's in the crowd (& to an extent on here)

[positivepete]

Plenty of Mike Bassett's at the ground, one in particular behind me. Back on formations and those calling for wingers, look at the report on West Ham. They play two wingers, had another on bench and yet in the reporters words ......

 

Generally Newcastle allowed themselves to be sucked into a scrap with a physically imposing, extremely direct, West Ham, whose finesse-lite gameplan served as a reminder as to why Tynesiders were so pleased to see the back of Sam Allardyce following his short stint in charge here.

[Bearsy]

If ur going to mark threads specifically FAO Tokyo-Saint like this, wouldn't it be easier just to pm him?

[shurlock]

Reading through the post-match thread has had steam coming out of my ears!

 

Comments like:

 

"one of Wanyama and Schneiderlin needs to get in the box"

"we need to sign some wingers" etc

 

I feel compelled to explain...

 

When THEY have the ball:

- We aim to press from the front and win the ball, ideally, in their half. It is a team press, starting with the forward players.

- If the opponents get past the press and build momentum, we have two DMs to try and break up play, with a 'standard' back four behind them. Wide attacking players need to track back to help with overlapping runs down the flanks (so high fitness levels required).

 

When WE have the ball:

- We do not play with conventional wingers. Clear? Understand? The width is supposed to be supplied by overlapping runs from our (very fit and very talented) fullbacks. Until Clyne came on in the second half this wasn't happening as it should, despite our dominance in possession. Why they lacked the confidence to get up the pitch I'm not sure...

- The idea of playing with TWO DM's (Wanyama and Schneiderlin) is that their tactical discipline should allow the fullbacks to have the confidence to push forwards, knowing that the two centrebacks and DMs are covering in behind them.

 

You're a clown - you obviously haven't seen us play much or forget that our inability to score from open play this season is not a new issue.

 

Relying on our two FBs is like getting width on the cheap -and it's limitations are exposed away from home where the FBs do not have the same license to get forward, with or without 2 DMs. By 'extremely talented' you probably mean superhuman. Even at home its difficult to execute when your squad is thin -only Clyne and Shaw genuinely provide that option -and one has been injured and the other keeps getting injured. One reason we were so lopsided at times yesterday.

 

Second you are setting up a total straw man. Nobody is saying we need wingers per se; but more pace and directness cutting in off the flanks gives us something different (it's probably the main reason Jrod continues to get picked, notwithstanding his patchy form).

 

Indeed, most other teams that play a similar formation -Swansea, Spurs- set up with pace coming off the wider areas. Spurs aren't just keen to have Rose and Naughton to bomb on - they have Bale, Lennon et al. The contrast couldn't be more striking. No coincidence really that we were heavily linked with Sinclair who plays as an inside forward/striker/winger.

Edited 25 August, 2013 by shurlock

[Sour Mash]

I like it when fans shout at players to get it forward (hoof it), then if we rarely do, we lose it, they moan.

 

Morons.

Even funnier, yesterday I was surrounded by fans giving it the "don't f**k around with it, get it in there" shout when we were keeping possession, but as soon as as Sunderland knocked a long ball into our area they'd all shout "Hoof". Cretins.

[Saint Charlie]

What was lacking until the second half was the player dropping into the hole and being harder to mark. That is what provides the key threat in the system but first half we were easy to mark in a virtual 4-2-4 when attacking.

 

Not convinced that Lambert could really play that role as he doesnt have the ability to beat a man that Lallana and Ramirez do. Plus at times when defending you have to track runners from that position.

 

Yesterday Lambert was the striker all game.

[SnailOB]

I appreciate what the OP is saying but the problem we seem to have is breaking down teams who try to counter our pressing system by sitting back and trying to hit us on the break.

 

Majority of our play yesterday seemed to be through the middle which was very easy for Sunderland to deal with. We never seemed to get behind them and never utilised the width of the pitch often enough. When we did spray the ball wide, no-one seemed to have the pace to beat the defender and get to the by-line.

 

If one of the 'attacking 3' (think someone used Tottenham as an example) had real pace and could play as a winger, then surely that would increase our options.

 

At the moment, our attacking players seem a but pedestrian.

[Webby]

In my humble opinion we need to find a different way to play against teams that sit back and don't come at us. We're finding it hard to break them down and this becomes even harder if they're fortunate to grab an early goal. If we were to score first, our style has more chance of working cos they have to come out a little bit more.

 

Whether that's playing two up front, or with one DM, I don't know. Hopefully, MP does.

[Wes Tender]

I find it rather amusing with the irony that despite all the talk about which is the most effective formation, the goal that gained us the point was scored by a CB from open play. And it wasn't the first time that Fonte had wandered deep into the final third during play, rather than from a set piece. I presume that it was actually a tactical manoeuvre and it proved effective, as there was an extra body in their box, one without a designated marker.

[Webby]

I find it rather amusing with the irony that despite all the talk about which is the most effective formation, the goal that gained us the point was scored by a CB from open play. And it wasn't the first time that Fonte had wandered deep into the final third during play, rather than from a set piece. I presume that it was actually a tactical manoeuvre and it proved effective, as there was an extra body in their box, one without a designated marker.

 

It was a set piece actually.

[Graffito]

This includes a tactical analysis of the Sunderland match.

 

http://www.eplindex.com/37849/marcelo-bielsas-tactical-influence-mauricio-pochettino-tactics.html?

[orchardsaint]

I find it rather amusing with the irony that despite all the talk about which is the most effective formation, the goal that gained us the point was scored by a CB from open play. And it wasn't the first time that Fonte had wandered deep into the final third during play, rather than from a set piece. I presume that it was actually a tactical manoeuvre and it proved effective, as there was an extra body in their box, one without a designated marker.

 

free kick

[mcbendy]

This includes a tactical analysis of the Sunderland match.

 

http://www.eplindex.com/37849/marcelo-bielsas-tactical-influence-mauricio-pochettino-tactics.html?

 

Superb - thank you. That is really interesting.

[cellone]

Proper headuparse thread for the super fan.

[Whitey Grandad]

This includes a tactical analysis of the Sunderland match.

 

http://www.eplindex.com/37849/marcelo-bielsas-tactical-influence-mauricio-pochettino-tactics.html?

 

Interesting read, thanks. Now all we need to do is learn how to clear a corner.

[LeBenali]

It may just be me, but from my view in the Kingsland it looked like the pitch had been narrowed slightly from last season - can anyone confirm? Would make sense considering we're not playing with as much width as we were under Adkins last season.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

WE NEED A PACY WINGER!!!

 

...to play in our system that has no wingers.

 

Every time I read this I die a little in side.

[The Kraken]

WE NEED A PACY WINGER!!!

 

...to play in our system that has no wingers.

 

Every time I read this I die a little in side.

Just because we don't it doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't. As I posted on another thread; Tottenham have a winger in Lennon; Man City have signed Jesus Navas; Chelsea have Kevin de Bruyne, and you could probably also argue that the likes of Young, Valencia, Nani and Zaha are capable of the role for Man United. Really we're talking about a skilful player with pace who is capable (and willing) to attack a full back either on the inside or outside. Perhaps we don't look to play that way but there's no reason we couldn't add it to our locker, I think it might just make us a little less predictable and slow at times.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

We'd be better off reverting to 4-4-2 with a couple of wingers and big man up top and a small man picking up the flicks. Long ball into the mixer from whatever player has it. It's the only way some of our Mong fans will understand what is going on the pitch.

 

Sometimes some of the things I see on here remind me of when I went to see Shrewsbury vs Bury.

 

Shrewsbury were playing 4-3-3, and the local genius I was lucky enough to be sat in front of pipes up midway through the first half with a chant of:

 

"4-4-2, it always works. 4-4-2, it always works."

 

Before spending the rest of the match decrying that his advice wasn't being listened to, or that they weren't getting it forward enough, I.e. jumping it 60 yards every time a defender had it.

 

They won, yet he still wasn't happy with these "poncy foreign tactics".

 

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Just because we don't it doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't. As I posted on another thread; Tottenham have a winger in Lennon; Man City have signed Jesus Navas; Chelsea have Kevin de Bruyne, and you could probably also argue that the likes of Young, Valencia, Nani and Zaha are capable of the role for Man United. Really we're talking about a skilful player with pace who is capable (and willing) to attack a full back either on the inside or outside. Perhaps we don't look to play that way but there's no reason we couldn't add it to our locker, I think it might just make us a little less predictable and slow at times.

 

Being quick, doesn't a winger make.

 

I also don't really see the comparisons. KdB is equally adept as playing as an AM as a winger.

 

City and United don't play the same sort of system as us, and actually deploy wingers, hence why United have at least 3/4 in there squad.

[The Kraken]

Being quick, doesn't a winger make.

 

I also don't really see the comparisons. KdB is equally adept as playing as an AM as a winger.

 

City and United don't play the same sort of system as us, and actually deploy

I never said that being quick was the be all and all. Its about having pace and using that pace with a combination of skill to attack the full back. The days of a traditional kick and run winger are, of course, long gone. That said, Jesus Navas is as close to a new-age "winger" as you're going to get; and if Man City feel they can improve their side with such a player then I don't believe it's beyond us. In Lallana and Ramirez we have a couple of AMs. Not sure what JRod gets classed as, but he's typically not someone who is going to get the ball and run at the full back. We may play a different way to Man City but, as I said, just because we don't currently play that way (we don't even have the personnel to do so) it doesn't mean that we couldn't or shouldn't at least look to have the option to do so, and in games such as yesterday where the opposition park the bus it would give us a genuinely different option. Probably not going to happen, but it's not something I'd choose to rule out.

[derry]

Apart from the disallowed goal we didn't work a single clear cut chance by movement and passing through the defence. All the chances came from crosses/headers and the goal from a 'Hail Mary' free kick from midfield. We did need a full back/central midfielder to join up, to allow this we needed more lateral movement up front to move the defenders around and we certainly didn't need a back four reinforced by two sitting midfielders passing the ball around in our own half because the opposition were all in their half. When teams retreat and defend in numbers up front it is difficult to create space, so the forwards need to make runs to try and take the defenders with them if only for a few yards. In the second half we were much better. I liked the way Osvaldo pulled away as did Lambert and Ramirez looked like he will link well with them. This should allow Rodriguez/Lallana or full backs/midfielders to drive into the spaces.

[lloydie]

I somehow can never imagine a west ham fans forum or QPR, Stoke etc forum ever having as in depth discussions as we do about tactics, pressing etc!

[Mowgli]

Well put mcbendy. I'm sure Sanchez and Sweden are still scratching their heads though...

[Mowgli]

We'd be better off reverting to 4-4-2 with a couple of wingers and big man up top and a small man picking up the flicks. Long ball into the mixer from whatever player has it. It's the only way some of our Mong fans will understand what is going on the pitch.

 

You jest, but WGS used to argue this was all that the players (he had then) could understand. It was a bit patronising to the players but its hardly surprising some of our older fans struggle.

[shurlock]

See Townsend tore Swansea apart and was the difference between the two sides -who says sides with 4-2-3-1 don't use wingers of sorts

 

Townsend isn't good enough for us either according to the mongboard illuminati

[farawaysaint]

I found this informative, thank you, from an idiot.

[Minty]

Was trying to find the most appropriate place for it, think this is as good as any!

 

http://www.eplindex.com/37849/marcelo-bielsas-tactical-influence-mauricio-pochettino-tactics.html

 

This article explains more about things and I think the following quote sums it up best:

 

Mauricio Pochettino has certainly been inspired by the genius of Bielsa and the half time changes show that like Bielsa, Southampton’s manager isn’t afraid to experiment and try new things. The total fluid positional inter-exchanges between the front four is certainly unique to the Premier League at the moment and I can’t remember the last time I had so much trouble trying to figure out who was playing where in the final third! Lambert dropped deep, picked up the ball out wide on both flanks and played as a central figurehead in the front four – as did all four other players.