The three main reasons we are not scoring enough goals.

[Legod Third Coming]

So you're saying we've been playing this attacking style of Dutch Total Football in the Academy for years then???

 

According to Lloyd James they have played 4-3-3 from a young age and with a focus on moving the ball at pace on the floor, with the aim of making them confident on the ball. This Dutch football thing has been overdone.

 

I talked with a cab driver about this and we both agreed that Liverpool of the 70s and 80s always played these little triangles.

 

That's all we do. Every player should have an option all the time. I think the total football thing has been overdone. Only Cruyff ever played total football because he was a bloody genuis.

 

Playing the ball on the deck and keeping hold of it - that's just the way God intended football to be played, that's all.

[um pahars]

He does say he plays with three up. That's his view so anyone calling for 4-4-2 is asking for a cut in our striking power... believe it or not!!!

 

You can call it what you want, but it is not delivering the goods with regards scoring goals.

 

We're ranked 22nd in terms of scoring.

 

I'm just asking for us to play to our strengths and perhaps try and change things if they're not working. And perhaps more importantly, maybe try and play a formation that suits our players, rather than try and shoe horn them into a system.

[Legod Third Coming]

You can call it what you want, but it is not delivering the goods with regards scoring goals.

 

We're ranked 22nd in terms of scoring.

 

I'm just asking for us to play to our strengths and perhaps try and change things if they're not working. And perhaps more importantly, maybe try and play a formation that suits our players, rather than try and shoe horn them into a system.

 

 

Er, but it does suit out players. They're now used to it. All it is not delivering is victories. You could play BWP and McG up front and we wouldn't score a single extra goal. Cos they ain't strikers.

 

I've seen Lallana come back and make a saving tackle at Reading. Early in the season it looked like the fullbacks didn't get it, now they do.

 

We're just not scoring. What's your proposed formation? 1-1-8???

 

We ain't got a decent striker - that's our key problem. Sten John would score a hatful in our system - any system probably.

 

Do you want us to play 4-4-2? And if so why? The most successful teams no longer play this formation.

 

To me our strength appears to be playing the ball short and quick on the deck.

[um pahars]

Er, but it does suit out players. They're now used to it. All it is not delivering is victories.

 

No, it's not delivering the goals.

 

We are ranked 22nd in terms of scoring in this division. I would call that not delivering.

 

We're just not scoring.

 

Exactly, so if it does suit our players and they're used to it, then why aren't we scoring?

 

We ain't got a decent striker - that's our key problem.

 

Now you've lost me.

 

It suits our players, they're used to it and all it's doing is not delivering victories, but now you're saying we haven't got a decent striker to play in this system that suits them (suits all those apart from the decent striker we haven't got???).

 

So if we haven't got the personnel to play in this system, then why do we persevere with it???

[Legod Third Coming]

No, it's not delivering the goals.

 

We are ranked 22nd in terms of scoring in this division. I would call that not delivering.

 

 

 

Exactly, so if it does suit our players and they're used to it, then why aren't we scoring?

 

 

 

Now you've lost me.

 

It suits our players, they're used to it and all it's doing is not delivering victories, but now you're saying we haven't got a decent striker to play in this system that suits them (suits all those apart from the decent striker we haven't got???).

 

So if we haven't got the personnel to play in this system, then why do we persevere with it???

 

Right, let's make this really simple.

 

We can play the system.

 

It creates opportunities.

 

We don't take them.

 

Shall I try Swahili in future?

[um pahars]

Right, let's make this really simple.

 

We can play the system.

 

It creates opportunities.

 

We don't take them.

 

Shall I try Swahili in future?

 

So do we come back to the fact that in the current set up we don't have the quality of players who can score the chances created by this style of football (that said I'm not overly sure we do create a hatfull of gilt edged chances each game)???

 

If it's a yes, then would it be worth trying a different style of play, or do we just carry on regardless???

Edited 7 December, 2008 by um pahars

[Legod Third Coming]

Having said which, I do get royally annoyed that we don't leave a fast man on the halfway line at corners.

[Legod Third Coming]

So do we come back to the fact that in the current set up we don't have the quality of players who can score the chances crated by this style of football???

 

If it's a yes, then would it be worth trying a different style of play, or do we just carry on regardless???

 

 

What do you suggest? Play two ineffective strikers instead of one?

 

I think he's trying to see if any of the strikers he has can do the job - hence he has been through Peckhart, Robertson, McG and now Paterson.

 

There is no different style of play is there?

 

What is the alternative to passing to a bloke in the same coloured shirt??

 

Sometimes our lads overplay. Sometimes they go backwards because they dont see a better option. Without Holmes and Morgan we do lack (apart from James) someone who can hit a great cross-field ball. This I put down to age, confidence and ability - not the system.

 

But I don't believe our failure to score has anything to do with playing 4-4-3 or 4-4-2, but failure to get a striker in form!!

 

If we're good, and we're getting better, we should be able to beat people playing our way.

[Professor]

Four games without defeat is progress by anyone's standards. We won't continue unbeaten, but at least the defence and the midfield are playing well enough and we have more strength to come in both areas. JP is saying everything that fans are saying, about the need for the attacking players to take their chances and for the midfield to have more goes on goal. Changing the faces every week was the Burley way. Lets hope JP does not go down that road. He seems to take the view that they will get better and gain in confidence by playing, and by working on the training ground. Some fans will always think they know better, but if they did, they'd be running a professional team themselves - and those posting on here are not!

[um pahars]

What do you suggest? Play two ineffective strikers instead of one?

 

I think he's trying to see if any of the strikers he has can do the job - hence he has been through Peckhart, Robertson, McG and now Paterson.

 

There is no different style of play is there?

 

What is the alternative to passing to a bloke in the same coloured shirt??

 

Sometimes our lads overplay. Sometimes they go backwards because they dont see a better option. Without Holmes and Morgan we do lack (apart from James) someone who can hit a great cross-field ball. This I put down to age, confidence and ability - not the system.

 

But I don't believe our failure to score has anything to do with playing 4-4-3 or 4-4-2, but failure to get a striker in form!!

 

If we're good, and we're getting better, we should be able to beat people playing our way.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree, as I think playing two up top is a more effective set up (then again any set up could be more prouctive than the current one).

 

IMHO whenever the front two have played closer together we have looked more dangerous.

 

We have no one in the current set up who can lead the line on their own, so I see it as a total waste to continue with a set up when we don't have the players to make it work.

 

We're just consigning ourselves to bumble along as the 22nd worst scorers in the division.

[instinct]

what we need to do is get the ball into the box

 

so many times I have seen us in a dangerous crossing position, pass it backwards, to midfield, defence then keeper, instead of risking losing posession by crossing the ball

 

the goal we scored on saturaday was from a quick, direct break, not pretty backwards triangle football

 

how many of our goals actually come from this over elaborate style of football?? how often have we walked it into the net??

 

and another thing - all lallana seems to do is run in circles away from the goal, he only beats his man when he is going backwards

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Why do you assume that we will get worse and others better?

It is just as reasonable to suppose that we are all as good as we are.

In which case, we will finish the season safe. We might even get better - don't you think the defence has got better? The midfield too? Yes, we're not scoring goals and no we don't have the world's best players. We have some good ones though and more to come back - Morgan and Holmes to name two key ones we appear to miss badly.

 

In any system, the best players are most likely to win - that's obvious, look at the Premiership and there is no debate as to who is top and why.

 

What we have is players who want to learn, want to improve, want to play and want to win. They and their coach will need support and time to get things right. That much we surely know about football?

 

In time he and they might not be up to it. But at the moment they're both proving just good enough. And for now, that's all we need.

 

All of the above is perfectly reasonable and well argued .

 

This thread is about why we're not scoring enough goals and what we can do about it . You believe we should keep going as we are in the belief that this young team can develop (in time) into a more effective goal scoring machine . If I were in charge (and I can assure you it's a good job I'm not) I'd try changing the system back to 4-4-2 and see if it produced better results - at St Marys anyway .

 

I fear there are some grounds for believing we may not improve in coming months - especialy if important players leave the club in January , I guess we'll just have to wait and see .

 

I'm sure we can both agree we do need to improve one way or another and that it would be a welcome development if SFC started to win a few home games every now and then .

[Wes Tender]

spent most of the season sho9uting "get to the byeline". Th likes of James would rather cross from deep than dribble, even if there was space ahead of him.

 

When BWP got the byeline twice down the left hand side against Plymouth we looked lethal. Why doesn't he do that all the time. His left foot crossing is actually really good.

 

You can see it, I can see it, Case and Merrington can see it along with most fans that attend matches; everybody but our lower league Dutch manager apparently.

 

As I've said many times, as entertaining as it is to watch the pretty passing and movement, I would rather see more of the play out wide, pacey wingplay stretching the midfield, taking the ball to the byeline and crossing in for the strikers to attack. Holmes and sometimes Dyer were excellent at this and it would have been bread and butter for John, Rasiak or Saganowski. Unfortunately with Holmes injured, Dyer, John, Rasiak and Saga out on loan, the manager hasn't the mental capacity to instruct others to take up their roles; either that or the players haven't the discipline to play to a strategy.

 

Whichever it is, I tire of the pretty stuff if there is little or no end product. When push comes to shove, I'm afraid that currently I'd rather see us win dirty than lose or draw prettily.

[OldNick]

You can see it, I can see it, Case and Merrington can see it along with most fans that attend matches; everybody but our lower league Dutch manager apparently.

 

As I've said many times, as entertaining as it is to watch the pretty passing and movement, I would rather see more of the play out wide, pacey wingplay stretching the midfield, taking the ball to the byeline and crossing in for the strikers to attack. Holmes and sometimes Dyer were excellent at this and it would have been bread and butter for John, Rasiak or Saganowski. Unfortunately with Holmes injured, Dyer, John, Rasiak and Saga out on loan, the manager hasn't the mental capacity to instruct others to take up their roles; either that or the players haven't the discipline to play to a strategy.

 

Whichever it is, I tire of the pretty stuff if there is little or no end product. When push comes to shove, I'm afraid that currently I'd rather see us win dirty than lose or draw prettily.

To be fair when was the last time we had a team that got to the byeline, under WGS fabrice would cross from 20yards out.I cant think of a winger since Paine who regularily got to the bye line, and if you look at the top teams do so either.

[rooney]

1) We are not getting to the byeline. We don't break quickly enough and drive for the byeline getting behind the defence and crossing back into the box.

 

I remember watching Paine & Sydenham doing this every week and Big Ron, leaping like a salmon to head for goal. If only.....

[Window Cleaner]

1) We are not getting to the byeline. We don't break quickly enough and drive for the byeline getting behind the defence and crossing back into the box.

 

I remember watching Paine & Sydenham doing this every week and Big Ron, leaping like a salmon to head for goal. If only.....

 

Football has changed,unfortunately for the modern fan but that's just the way it is. Paine and Sydenham would probably do very little in the modern game. Idem Stanley Matthews,Jimmy Greaves,Bobby Charlton

and whatever have you.

[rooney]

Mind you ,I did see Bobby Charlton score a terrific goal the other day on TV, when watching some youngsters play, whilst taking his whippet for a walk in the park!

[SaintDonkey]

I have to agree with the posters who've raised the lack of real wide men. The sooner Holems gets back from injury the better, and the sooner Jan puts a proper winger down the right instead of Lallana (good player but not a wide man) the better.

 

Thomson or James down that right hand side for me. Maybe push Surman back to left back and give Rudi a chance at left wing until Holmes is fit?

[egreog]

Ball not getting in box enough...... simple really!!

[SaintDonkey]

Ball not getting in box enough...... simple really!!

 

Plus half the time when the ball does come in there's no one there to recieve it

[Whitey Grandad]

Plus half the time when the ball does come in there's no one there to recieve it

So that means neither the ball nor our players in the opposition box (half the time) . In my opinion a large factor in our failure to score goals is the ponderous speed of the build-up play. This pretty football is all very attractive but if we can't pass the ball through the opposition there's no alternative option.

[OldNick]

Plus half the time when the ball does come in there's no one there to recieve it

that is more pertinent, we dont have a big centre forward who knocks everyone out of the way to get to the ball

[SaintRobbie]

3 reasons we're not scoring goals:

 

1. McGoldrick

2. Rasiak on loan.

3. John on loan.

[Whitey Grandad]

that is more pertinent, we dont have a big centre forward who knocks everyone out of the way to get to the ball

Kerching! (spelling?)

[Thedelldays]

that is more pertinent, we dont have a big centre forward who knocks everyone out of the way to get to the ball

he is somewhere in bristol i think

[OldNick]

Kerching! (spelling?)

Behave, I dont come on here pointing out your poor judgement and so give me some slack on my spelling.I know it is not good, so bad in fact that the Guardian is headhunting me to be editor.

[OldNick]

he is somewhere in bristol i think

SJ is not a battering ram of a forward..I will point out his double miss on saturday for BC.

[Thedelldays]

SJ is not a battering ram of a forward..I will point out his double miss on saturday for BC.

im sure i could point out a double miss from fernando torres at some point

 

are you saying he is no more that type than the lot we have here now then and is not capable of scoring alot more goals...?

 

seriously?

[OldNick]

im sure i could point out a double miss from fernando torres at some point

 

are you saying he is no more that type than the lot we have here now then and is not capable of scoring alot more goals...?

 

seriously?

DD no Im not but he is not the tyoe of forward i imagine when fans talk about getting to the byeline and crossing.

[Thedelldays]

DD no Im not but he is not the tyoe of forward i imagine when fans talk about getting to the byeline and crossing.

 

 

he would score alot more if he played 20 games for us this season than the rest of our lot put together...

[OldNick]

he would score alot more if he played 20 games for us this season than the rest of our lot put together...

DD behave, how many goals did we score in the firsdt 20 games?

[Thedelldays]

DD behave, how many goals did we score in the firsdt 20 games?

 

 

i reckon...john would have scored more goals in the half season we had him last season than, DMG, robertson, patterson, lallana, BWP put together for the WHOLE of this season..

 

 

edit - and peckhart

[L1Minus10]

We haven't got a single striker who is capable of playing up front on his own. Attributes you need (in no particular order are)

 

Ability to occupy two centre halves

able to head it

Able to hold it up

decent first touch

fairly quick

be a goal threat all game

be mobile to drag defenders about

be a right pain in the ass to the defenders

not get caught offside,

not go out wide.

 

The only player on the books who remotely ticks a majority of these is Saganowski and he's gone. None of the strikers we have can do many of the above and to be fair, there's not many who can. Drogba perhaps.... Les Ferdinand... Shearer.

 

Formation to blame for me... failing to use what we have.... at present we are trying to cut something with a blunt instrument... if the point is blunt then it aint gonna happen.

[saintant]

It's simple really. Play Jan's funny formation away from home where it has had some success but not at home where it has had zero success. At home we must play 442 because opposition teams come to defend and hit us on the counter and the current formation does not work against that. Keep playing Jan's way at home and it'll be a continued succession of draws, defeats and the odd victory. 442 is the way to score goals and win matches at St Marys.

[eelpie]

The loss of Holmes (and Dyer on loan?) a key reason for the lack of width and getting to the byeline to get crosses into the area.

 

Dyer should return. He and BWP on a good day are the only ones who have the pace to out-speed retreating defences. Bring back Stern John too and we have a target man again - who, unlike MCG, can actually outjump defenders. Then Lallana can play to his strengths in the hole. I guarantee that this would improve our shocking goal-scoring record.

[Legod Third Coming]

We haven't got a single striker who is capable of playing up front on his own. Attributes you need (in no particular order are)

 

Ability to occupy two centre halves

able to head it

Able to hold it up

decent first touch

fairly quick

be a goal threat all game

be mobile to drag defenders about

be a right pain in the ass to the defenders

not get caught offside,

not go out wide.

 

The only player on the books who remotely ticks a majority of these is Saganowski and he's gone. None of the strikers we have can do many of the above and to be fair, there's not many who can. Drogba perhaps.... Les Ferdinand... Shearer.

 

Formation to blame for me... failing to use what we have.... at present we are trying to cut something with a blunt instrument... if the point is blunt then it aint gonna happen.

 

The solution cannot be to play two players up front who have none of the attributes described above - since these are attributes of any striker in any formation!

 

I cannot fly a plane. Should I find myself aboard one when the pilot croaks I will find someone else who can't fly and together we'll land like an Osprey in the Glens!

 

BTW - all these 4-4-2 merchants - do we have the Mike Basset fan club on our board??

[Whitey Grandad]

Behave, I dont come on here pointing out your poor judgement and so give me some slack on my spelling.I know it is not good, so bad in fact that the Guardian is headhunting me to be editor.

Pace! I was questioning my spelling of the onomatopaeic word 'kerching'. I was trying to say that you have hit the nail on the head (although that would make a different sort of sound).

[OldNick]

Pace! I was questioning my spelling of the onomatopaeic word 'kerching'. I was trying to say that you have hit the nail on the head (although that would make a different sort of sound).

Ohhhhh, your judgement is good after all

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

We haven't got a single striker who is capable of playing up front on his own. Attributes you need (in no particular order are)

 

Ability to occupy two centre halves

able to head it

Able to hold it up

decent first touch

fairly quick

be a goal threat all game

be mobile to drag defenders about

be a right pain in the ass to the defenders

not get caught offside,

not go out wide.

 

The only player on the books who remotely ticks a majority of these is Saganowski and he's gone. None of the strikers we have can do many of the above and to be fair, there's not many who can. Drogba perhaps.... Les Ferdinand... Shearer.

 

Formation to blame for me... failing to use what we have.... at present we are trying to cut something with a blunt instrument... if the point is blunt then it aint gonna happen.

 

I wonder if the clubs much vaunted academy system is partly to blame .

 

Our youngsters seem to be selected and coached almost exclusively with a view to develop their technical ability . Now that's fine and it works brilliantly for Arsenal in the Premier League - but we're not in the Premier League and to succeed in this division you could argue we need more than a seamless conveyor belt of pretty 'ball polishers' emerging from the Academy , we need players with big hearts not just good feet .

 

Please don't get me wrong on this , I love watching players like Adam Lallana or Fish Mills play and I'd always find space in the team for talent but there's more to the game than just ball skills . A few big strong lads who will sweat blood for the cause and who are not afraid to put themselves about a bit or take a shot would come in very handy .

[Whitey Grandad]

Ohhhhh, your judgement is good after all

Almost as good as yours...

[Alain Perrin]

Shooting is the problem.

 

Watch the boys warming up ahead of a home game. The number of shots that go wide, over or straight at the keeper is appalling. No pressure, no product, means trouble when the pressure is on.

[Leicestersaint]

Shooting is the problem.

 

Watch the boys warming up ahead of a home game. The number of shots that go wide, over or straight at the keeper is appalling. No pressure, no product, means trouble when the pressure is on.

 

I totally agree - their shooting is simply awful - I think they need to practice and practice shooting around the edge of the box.

[Legod Third Coming]

I totally agree - their shooting is simply awful - I think they need to practice and practice shooting around the edge of the box.

 

 

Agreed, and also crossing! Just sometimes it's worth banging the ball in at pace and seeing where it ends up!!!!!!

[AndyNorthernSaints]

We don't have any strikers :-(

[LaptopSaint]

So what's to do be done?

 

My suggestion -- send Robertson, Pekhart and Smith back where they came from (if we want to blood yet more youngsters we've got Patterson, White etc waiting in the wings).

 

Use the money we save on wages by selling Rudi to Ipswich (don't want him to go but that's life) on bringing one of Stern/Rasiak and also Saga back at least until the end of this season.

 

I reckon (but don't know) that Rudi's probably the highest earner of that lot so it will save quite a bit.

 

Still need more money? Sell Wotton (he'll never be more than a bit part player and while he's a shouter he ain't good enough) and try to persaude Sheff Utd to pay us some money for Dyer.

 

Pulis? We have to give him a chance... but what were we thinking there?

 

Even a few hundred thousand for Stern or Rasiak (whichever one we don't try to keep) should be a bite your hand off moment too.

 

Finally - if we have to - sell one of Surman/Lallana IF it means we get our experienced strikers back.

 

Until then (if he's fit) chuck Jason Euell up front. We have to try something different.

 

If we can't score more goals we will go down. I'm pretty confident that there is time to turn it round, but getting in more unproven lower league reserves won't be the answer.

[Legod Third Coming]

So what's to do be done?

 

My suggestion -- send Robertson, Pekhart and Smith back where they came from (if we want to blood yet more youngsters we've got Patterson, White etc waiting in the wings).

 

Use the money we save on wages by selling Rudi to Ipswich (don't want him to go but that's life) on bringing one of Stern/Rasiak and also Saga back at least until the end of this season.

 

I reckon (but don't know) that Rudi's probably the highest earner of that lot so it will save quite a bit.

 

Still need more money? Sell Wotton (he'll never be more than a bit part player and while he's a shouter he ain't good enough) and try to persaude Sheff Utd to pay us some money for Dyer.

 

Pulis? We have to give him a chance... but what were we thinking there?

 

Even a few hundred thousand for Stern or Rasiak (whichever one we don't try to keep) should be a bite your hand off moment too.

 

Finally - if we have to - sell one of Surman/Lallana IF it means we get our experienced strikers back.

 

Until then (if he's fit) chuck Jason Euell up front. We have to try something different.

 

If we can't score more goals we will go down. I'm pretty confident that there is time to turn it round, but getting in more unproven lower league reserves won't be the answer.

 

I think there are some ideas there worth thinking about.

[derry]

FFS it's not the bloody system, numbers mean nothing. It's the way the players are not driving forward as soon as they get the ball, together with no wide outlets, available immediately to receive the ball and drive for the byeline. Then supported by other players, busting a gut to get into the box.

[Thedelldays]

FFS it's not the bloody system, numbers mean nothing. It's the way the players are not driving forward as soon as they get the ball, together with no wide outlets, available immediately to receive the ball and drive for the byeline. Then supported by other players, busting a gut to get into the box.

not too sure what you mean here...?

[benjii]

What is annoying me is the "we'll adapt", "they're young, they'll improve" attitude put forward by some. Firstly, our performances, bar one or two exceptions, have been getting progressively worse. Secondly, the players are getting the stuffing knocked out of them and are being ruined - even the mananger admits half the squad can't be arsed and have pyschological problems FFS.

 

This is exactly the complacent crap that got us sucked into a relegation battle last season.

 

And don't start with the "we've got no choice, it's the banks" nonsense either.

[derry]

not too sure what you mean here...?

 

The designated wide men do not quickly get wide when we win the ball.

 

They stay narrow, the left side is a little better than the right. Either McGoldrick or Lallana don't have the self discipline to do this, as they prefer the mid positions and don't bother going wide, staying narrow.

 

This means our wide play needs the full backs to get forward wide. That takes too much time. As the players on the ball have to wait for the wide options to appear eventually, the ball is passed sideways and backwards allowing opposing players to get goalside en masse.

 

That then means we have nowhere to go and really are not going to get into dangerous positions.

 

The two wide men have to be on the touchline available to receive the ball and drive for the byeline supported quickly by the nearest players.

 

In the meantime the other wide man is making a run for the corner of the penalty area, covering anything coming onto the far post, getting behind the last defender, who is likely to be pulled in, to cover the centre backs exposed by the quick break.

 

So now we have two problems both McGoldrick and Lallana allow themselves to be sucked in to the near post area consequently the right side is empty and we are not getting past the defenders.

 

The players who win the ball have to break quickly towards one side or the other, the wide men have to drive forward, the outnumbered defence has to be pulled across to cope, the other players breaking go for the box and the far post.

 

The time to pass the ball around, is if there is rapid lateral interchanging movement from the front players, pulling defenders around and creating space to allow a quick break.

 

We tend to move up the pitch in straight lines, the frontman static and marked and the others passing the ball around and nobody going anywhere except into a massed defence.

Edited 10 December, 2008 by derry