Apparent chemical weapon attacks in Syria

[Daren W]

either way, when is the point that others put a stop to it?

 

Problem is, nipping and helping hasn't worked out that well for us and others has it? I'd be inclined to let the whole of the middle east do its own thing and leave them all to it...

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Did we (the west) deliberately create the 'Arab Spring' as a matter of policy Phil, or was it an internal reaction against oppressive undemocratic regimes by their long suffering populations? I must admit this is one question I ask without already holding a set view on what the answer is.

 

Is it possible that the wellspring of revolution emanates not from some cynical western interest trying to 'feather its own nest' in the time honoured manner, but rather this modern age of increasingly sophisticated and educated populations - people let's remember that now also have practically unrestricted access to world media and the Internet - results in the common people of the middle east seeing what others have, wanting a piece of that, and no longer tolerating their traditional lot in life? I see some opinion makers in our press claiming that the middle east is by its very nature not a place where democracy can ever take root. I find it difficult to adaquatly express what a incredibly depressing opinion I find that to be.

 

But I'm writing this from dull and damp Dorset, while you are in deserts of Dubai. So you my friend would very obviously be in a much better position to judge the truth of that than I am!

[manji]

The only people the "Arab Spring" benefits are the Zionists.

[pap]

I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been discussed further, given recent news. Weapons Inspectors were granted access to the sites but came under unidentified sniper fire. Despite the unidentified part, the likes of William Hague and John Kerry are doing their very best to prosecute a war without any conclusive evidence, by using words like "undeniable" or phrases like "very little doubt". Would that stand up in court, I wonder?

 

This is only heading one way.

[Window Cleaner]

I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been discussed further, given recent news. Weapons Inspectors were granted access to the sites but came under unidentified sniper fire. Despite the unidentified part, the likes of William Hague and John Kerry are doing their very best to prosecute a war without any conclusive evidence, by using words like "undeniable" or phrases like "very little doubt". Would that stand up in court, I wonder?

 

This is only heading one way.

 

 

we must have a new range of arms to sell. French are just itching to get down there and try out their shiny,brand new

home produce cruise missiles,sell a few Rafales as well. Lets face it you can't sell arms to the Saudis and Kuwaitis nowadays without showing them what they can do. Might even go for Iran in the ensuing confusion, a total bollix situation.

[alpine_saint]

There is no such thing as the Arab community's "own problems". There can't be with the amount of meddling we've done in the region.

 

Oh, do f**k off with that one, pap. They've been figthing amongst themselves in that region, often about two flies crawling up a wall, since the time of the Pharoahs

 

-Long before oil was discovered

-Long before Reagan was swimming around in his Daddies balls

-Long before the UK tried to make the best out a poor job and set up Israel

 

The current issues in Syria are being sustained by the Russians. I dont see any resolution to the regions problems anymore, shorting of building a f**k-off wall or nuking the place.

[Colinjb]

I'm a little surprised that this hasn't been discussed further, given recent news. Weapons Inspectors were granted access to the sites but came under unidentified sniper fire. Despite the unidentified part, the likes of William Hague and John Kerry are doing their very best to prosecute a war without any conclusive evidence, by using words like "undeniable" or phrases like "very little doubt". Would that stand up in court, I wonder?

This is only heading one way.

 

As I understand we are already at that destination, it's just not been made public knowledge.

[Window Cleaner]

Oh, do f**k off with that one, pap. They've been figthing amongst themselves in that region, often about two flies crawling up a wall, since the time of the Pharoahs

 

-Long before oil was discovered

-Long before Reagan was swimming around in his Daddies balls

-Long before the UK tried to make the best out a poor job and set up Israel

 

The current issues in Syria are being sustained by the Russians. I dont see any resolution to the regions problems anymore, shorting of building a f**k-off wall or nuking the place.

 

anyway for a tinpot solution to a tinpot problems the Saudis and Kuwaitis have all the armaments they need to go and sort it out themselves. What is the point of us selling them stuff if they're not prepared to go and use it to sort out problems in their own area. Morocco and Algeria have pretty big armies, let them sort it out for once.

[dubai_phil]

Did we (the west) deliberately create the 'Arab Spring' as a matter of policy Phil, or was it an internal reaction against oppressive undemocratic regimes by their long suffering populations? I must admit this is one question I ask without already holding a set view on what the answer is.

 

Is it possible that the wellspring of revolution emanates not from some cynical western interest trying to 'feather its own nest' in the time honoured manner, but rather this modern age of increasingly sophisticated and educated populations - people let's remember that now also have practically unrestricted access to world media and the Internet - results in the common people of the middle east seeing what others have, wanting a piece of that, and no longer tolerating their traditional lot in life? I see some opinion makers in our press claiming that the middle east is by its very nature not a place where democracy can ever take root. I find it difficult to adaquatly express what a incredibly depressing opinion I find that to be.

 

But I'm writing this from dull and damp Dorset, while you are in deserts of Dubai. So you my friend would very obviously be in a much better position to judge the truth of that than I am!

 

The Arab Spring started in Iran. It was an attempt by "Younger Middle Class" to rise up against the Ayatollahs. They came up with the concept of using Social Media to stoke the fires. They got it wrong. They made mistakes. It was Bloody. Nothing changed.

 

There were back in the day a number of Articles and Interviews on TV about a particular US University which actually ran courses on this - perhaps that WAS a CIA plan to inspire Revolution in Iran - it actually almost worked!

I'm at work and am not able to spend an hour googling. but I am sure stuff can be found on this a good year before Tunisia.

 

The Iranians were the spark, there were Social Media Courses and they were in America. So maybe The US provided the trainings in how to be an organiser? I like you will not commit on that - it's a Uni Thesis level of research.

 

Back to your question. Did the West initiate it? Christ on a Bike, then IF they did it HAS to be one of THE worst Goddammed ideas The West or their local Cronies have EVER come up with. The world around Israel is now SO much more dangerous than it was before with all these splintered groups.

 

I cannot comment on Tunisia but for Egypt (Mubarak) & Syria (Bashar)

 

Countries TOTALLY unlike anything in the West. You cannot judge or view them through Western Eyes or with Western Ideals. In fact they were at one time one Nation and share a lot of Architecture.

 

They both Survived with a very Odd mixture of Secular Communism. The Syrians (as in Iraq with Saddam) it was all about The Party. IF you had a contact at a high enough level then like under Communism you could have your own business and prosper. Enjoy a Western Standard of Living. The Minions then had to scramble their way onto the ladder.

Egypt was more a clear case of Cronyism rather than having the concept of The Party, but again if you weren't in the game you would struggle.

 

In fairness to BOTH regimes they then had to balance Shia, Sunni, Muslim Brotherhood, Coptics, Roman Catholics and a few others. It would be a good argument to say that they actually managed that integration FAR better than you Brits have

 

the PROBLEM with Croneyism is that both parties built very strong Education Systems, and that allowed people to learn and find an eloquence to question.

 

The West did not make Bashar, Mubarak & Gadaffi cling onto power for too long. Change NEEDED to come some 10 years ago. It is not as if people were not pointing it out.

 

(Hariri Assasination anyone? Look up some of the interviews with the ex Syrian VP in Time Magazine etc once he managed to get his family out - The bstd still left all his employees in the lurch when he ran mind)

 

No The Arab Spring might have been a dream for Israel, but IF they did it is has been an EPIC fail and will continue to get worse.

 

Did the West HELP it? Blame Mark Zuckerberg - so yes it did.

 

Would the locals have done it without Facebook etc? Possibly not, I mean that as in it may not have happened yet and a lot of people would have conspired in darkened rooms and got Shot against a Wall.

 

However, without Social Media that slow but gentle approach MAY have allowed them to build up their own foundations for Opposition, foundations for some kind of policy Once the Leader is gone.

 

because Trust me. There will be only one thing WORSE than Bashar in Syria

 

That will be a Dead Bashar in Syria.

 

Bomb him? Might as well stand there and say Release The Kraken

[dubai_phil]

Oh, do f**k off with that one, pap. They've been figthing amongst themselves in that region, often about two flies crawling up a wall, since the time of the Pharoahs

 

-Long before oil was discovered

-Long before Reagan was swimming around in his Daddies balls

-Long before the UK tried to make the best out a poor job and set up Israel

 

The current issues in Syria are being sustained by the Russians. I dont see any resolution to the regions problems anymore, shorting of building a f**k-off wall or nuking the place.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10266957/Saudis-offer-Russia-secret-oil-deal-if-it-drops-Syria.html

 

[h=1]Saudis offer Russia secret oil deal if it drops Syria[/h][h=2]Saudi Arabia has secretly offered Russia a sweeping deal to control the global oil market and safeguard Russia’s gas contracts, if the Kremlin backs away from the Assad regime in Syria

The revelations come amid high tension in the Middle East, with US, British, and French warship poised for missile strikes in Syria. Iran has threatened to retaliate.

 

The strategic jitters pushed Brent crude prices to a five-month high of $112 a barrel. “We are only one incident away from a serious oil spike. The market is a lot tighter than people think,” said Chris Skrebowski, editor of Petroleum Review.

 

Leaked transcripts of a closed-door meeting between Russia’s Vladimir Putin and Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan shed an extraordinary light on the hard-nosed Realpolitik of the two sides.

 

Prince Bandar, head of Saudi intelligence, allegedly confronted the Kremlin with a mix of inducements and threats in a bid to break the deadlock over Syria. “Let us examine how to put together a unified Russian-Saudi strategy on the subject of oil. The aim is to agree on the price of oil and production quantities that keep the price stable in global oil markets,” he said at the four-hour meeting with Mr Putin. They met at Mr Putin’s dacha outside Moscow three weeks ago.

 

“We understand Russia’s great interest in the oil and gas in the Mediterranean from Israel to Cyprus. And we understand the importance of the Russian gas pipeline to Europe. We are not interested in competing with that. We can cooperate in this area,” he said, purporting to speak with the full backing of the US.

 

The talks appear to offer an alliance between the OPEC cartel and Russia, which together produce over 40m barrels a day of oil, 45pc of global output. Such a move would alter the strategic landscape.

The details of the talks were first leaked to the Russian press. A more detailed version has since appeared in the Lebanese newspaper As-Safir, which has Hezbollah links and is hostile to the Saudis.

As-Safir said Prince Bandar pledged to safeguard Russia’s naval base in Syria if the Assad regime is toppled, but he also hinted at Chechen terrorist attacks on Russia’s Winter Olympics in Sochi if there is no accord. “I can give you a guarantee to protect the Winter Olympics next year. The Chechen groups that threaten the security of the games are controlled by us,” he allegedly said.

Prince Bandar went on to say that Chechens operating in Syria were a pressure tool that could be switched on an off. “These groups do not scare us. We use them in the face of the Syrian regime but they will have no role in Syria’s political future.”

President Putin has long been pushing for a global gas cartel, issuing the `Moscow Declaration’ last to month “defend suppliers and resist unfair pressure”. This would entail beefing up the Gas Exporting Countries Forum (GECF), a talking shop.

Mr Skrebowski said it is unclear what the Saudis can really offer the Russians on gas, beyond using leverage over Qatar and others to cut output of liquefied natural gas (LGN). “The Qataris are not going to obey Saudi orders,” he said.

Saudi Arabia could help boost oil prices by restricting its own supply. This would be a shot in the arm for Russia, which is near recession and relies on an oil price near $100 to fund the budget.

But it would be a dangerous strategy for the Saudis if it pushed prices to levels that endangered the world’s fragile economic recovery. Crude oil stocks in the US have already fallen sharply this year. Goldman Sachs said the “surplus cushion” in global stocks built up since 2008 has been completely eliminated.

Mr Skrebowski said trouble is brewing in a string of key supply states. “Libya is reverting to war lordism. Nigerian is drifting into a bandit state with steady loss of output. And Iraq is going back to the sort of Sunni-Shia civil war we saw in 2006-2007,” he said.

The Putin-Bandar meeting was stormy, replete with warnings of a “dramatic turn” in Syria. Mr Putin was unmoved by the Saudi offer, though western pressure has escalated since then. “Our stance on Assad will never change. We believe that the Syrian regime is the best speaker on behalf of the Syrian people, and not those liver eaters,” he said, referring to footage showing a Jihadist rebel eating the heart and liver of a Syrian soldier.

Prince Bandar in turn warned that there can be “no escape from the military option” if Russia declines the olive branch. Events are unfolding exactly as he foretold.

 

 

[/h]

[alpine_saint]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/10266957/Saudis-offer-Russia-secret-oil-deal-if-it-drops-Syria.html

 

 

 

[/h]

 

Oh, great, lets hand the world to Russia. Putin will energy-blackmail the West like he did Ukraine a few years ago. He really is a nasty piece of work.

[aintforever]

It sounds like a complete cluster-f*ck of a situation and the UN need to sort it out, whoever was responsible for the chemical attack doesn't matter - something needs to be done.

 

It's just not our problem though and not one single UK serviceman should be put in harms way. We are just a small skint island of the north of Europe - time to let another country be the World's police.

 

I'm sick to death of this British attitude that seems to think the World's problems are ours. Vote for action, put diplomatic pressure on - then sit back and watch another country get their hands dirty for once.

Edited 27 August, 2013 by aintforever

[Window Cleaner]

It sounds like a complete cluster-f*ck of a situation and the UN need to sort it out, whoever was responsible for the chemical attack doesn't matter - something needs to be done.

 

It's just not our problem though and not one single UK serviceman should be put in harms way. We are just a small skint island of the north of Europe - time to let another country be the World's police.

 

I'm sick to death of this British attitude that seems to think the World's problems are ours. Vote for action, put diplomatic pressure on - then sit back and watch another country get their hands dirty for once.

 

 

correct, I see that the Turks are now demanding action, why don't they just go and get on with it then. It would seem to me that they have had no scruples in the past when pursuing airstrikes on Syrian kurds so if they want action just let them go and get on with it, no-one will mind and they can always trump up an excuse, them being neighbours and all. All that I can see here

is the US just itching to provoke Iran and an excuse to go after them..some history of red line or other.

[aintforever]

correct, I see that the Turks are now demanding action, why don't they just go and get on with it then. It would seem to me that they have had no scruples in the past when pursuing airstrikes on Syrian kurds so if they want action just let them go and get on with it, no-one will mind and they can always trump up an excuse, them being neighbours and all. All that I can see here

is the US just itching to provoke Iran and an excuse to go after them..some history of red line or other.

 

And there are plenty of other countries down there with more money than us. Love to spend millions on shiny new shopping malls and hotels, OK to blow billions on a football World Cup yet happy to sit there and watch their neighbours get gassed.

[Window Cleaner]

And there are plenty of other countries down there with more money than us. Love to spend millions on shiny new shopping malls and hotels, OK to blow billions on a football World Cup yet happy to sit there and watch their neighbours get gassed.

 

did you know that the Moroccan army outnumbers the British Army ? And yet I don't think they're involved in Afghanistan or Iraq .

Seems to be just a fictious solution to local unemployment, probably a conscript army which as we all know is worth the square root of sod all. My boy says that their Navy officiers were of about the same value.

[dubai_phil]

And there are plenty of other countries down there with more money than us. Love to spend millions on shiny new shopping malls and hotels, OK to blow billions on a football World Cup yet happy to sit there and watch their neighbours get gassed.

 

Oh they're spending millions and millions on it all.

 

Just they aren't STUPID enough to get sucked in themselves

[Window Cleaner]

Oh they're spending millions and millions on it all.

 

Just they aren't STUPID enough to get sucked in themselves

 

indeed, it's a we'll buy your latest plane/missile/frigate if you show how good it is by going and duffing up our enemies with it.

[alpine_saint]

And there are plenty of other countries down there with more money than us. Love to spend millions on shiny new shopping malls and hotels, OK to blow billions on a football World Cup yet happy to sit there and watch their neighbours get gassed.

 

I have a lot of sympathy with this post. It seems to me the entire region places a lot less value on human life than the west.

 

Why do we always feel compelled to get involved ? It seems to me there are 2 main reasons, and possibly a third less significant reason:

 

1. Its an Empire legacy, where we did sort a lot of conflicts out. I dont think its an ego jingoistic thing, I think we just expect it of ourselves.

2. Being one of the 5 Permanent Members of the UN Security Council, it feels like we are somehow responsible for World security. Maybe its a pity that Russia and China have not demonstrated a similar sense of responsibility and have stood by and let this happen/encouraged it just so they can thumb their nose at the US and in the meantime gain from it.

3. We are just a bunch of warmongers used to having punch-ups.

[Window Cleaner]

I have a lot of sympathy with this post. It seems to me the entire region places a lot less value on human life than the west.

 

Why do we always feel compelled to get involved ? It seems to me there are 2 main reasons, and possibly a third less significant reason:

 

1. Its an Empire legacy, where we did sort a lot of conflicts out. I dont think its an ego jingoistic thing, I think we just expect it of ourselves.

2. Being one of the 5 Permanent Members of the UN Security Council, it feels like we are somehow responsible for World security. Maybe its a pity that Russia and China have not demonstrated a similar sense of responsibility and have stood by and let this happen/encouraged it just so they can thumb their nose at the US and in the meantime gain from it.

3. We are just a bunch of warmongers used to having punch-ups.

 

I think it's more a case of muslims not attacking other muslim countries, there is absolutely no reason why the Turks can't do this. The Turkish army has about 80000 professionals and 30+K conscripts, they are right next door, they have the aviation necessary but as per usual they want the non-islamics to be seen as agressors. The Syrian army is probably so fragilised by nigh on 2 years of internal combats that if any sizeable arab nation put their mind to it it would all be over in a few days but that would put them in bad standing with Iran I suppose. We need to stay well out of it, let them sort themselves out for once.

[dubai_phil]

I have a lot of sympathy with this post. It seems to me the entire region places a lot less value on human life than the west.

 

Why do we always feel compelled to get involved ? It seems to me there are 2 main reasons, and possibly a third less significant reason:

 

1. Its an Empire legacy, where we did sort a lot of conflicts out. I dont think its an ego jingoistic thing, I think we just expect it of ourselves.

2. Being one of the 5 Permanent Members of the UN Security Council, it feels like we are somehow responsible for World security. Maybe its a pity that Russia and China have not demonstrated a similar sense of responsibility and have stood by and let this happen/encouraged it just so they can thumb their nose at the US and in the meantime gain from it.

3. We are just a bunch of warmongers used to having punch-ups.

 

You do realize that the Chinese & Russians COULD actually be right of course?

 

Bashar is very bad. What comes after him now has trends that show more clearly, things could be MUCH MUCH worse. But this time not just for the people in Syria.

 

The phrase used in that article Libya has descended into Warlordism....

 

Maybe others who are NOT being influenced by a bunch of short sighted goons see a different picture?

 

This is my opinion, there is the other REAL factor here which is the "War" between Saudi & Iran for Ideological control of The Holy Sites & the Soul of Islam

 

 

[Window Cleaner]

Thursday it is then, cruise missile factories must be running short on orders. Hope they've not something nasty in the woodshed that pitched up from Iraq in the 90s then.

[pap]

Another Angry Voice is on this;

 

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/william-hague-warmonger-syria.html

 

Some very interesting questions raised here.

[Window Cleaner]

Another Angry Voice is on this;

 

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/william-hague-warmonger-syria.html

 

Some very interesting questions raised here.

 

Indeed, I really am afraid that we're going to fall into the Syrian Opposition's trap; Not at all sure that a mere series of cruise missile and air strikes will help them anyway. Situation isn't as clear cut as Libya where the parties were divided on a more or less geographical basis. Still the Yanks are itching to go and as they're easily fooled nothing will draw them back. Can't see other nations doing much anyway. won't be any boots on the ground .

[OldNick]

It is comical that Kerry was saying how awful it was seeing those kids dying. I suspect there are many ore in Iraq ,Afghanistan etc. As for him saying how bad chemical weapons are , perhaps he should turn on his own government when then used Napalm on the Vietmanese. I still recall those harrowing pictures of that poor child as she ran down the road with most odd her back hanging in shreds after a napalm attack

[pap]

It is comical that Kerry was saying how awful it was seeing those kids dying. I suspect there are many ore in Iraq ,Afghanistan etc. As for him saying how bad chemical weapons are , perhaps he should turn on his own government when then used Napalm on the Vietmanese. I still recall those harrowing pictures of that poor child as she ran down the road with most odd her back hanging in shreds after a napalm attack

 

The hypocrisy is amazing. The US used white phosphorous in Fallujah, yet presently insists that anyone caught using chemical weapons should be invaded.

[Noodles34]

The Arab Spring started in Iran. It was an attempt by "Younger Middle Class" to rise up against the Ayatollahs. They came up with the concept of using Social Media to stoke the fires. They got it wrong. They made mistakes. It was Bloody. Nothing changed.

 

So the Arab spring started outside of Arabia then, those bloody Iranians, always thought they wanted to be Arabs rather than Persians.

 

Good post though.

[dubai_phil]

It is comical that Kerry was saying how awful it was seeing those kids dying. I suspect there are many ore in Iraq ,Afghanistan etc. As for him saying how bad chemical weapons are , perhaps he should turn on his own government when then used Napalm on the Vietmanese. I still recall those harrowing pictures of that poor child as she ran down the road with most odd her back hanging in shreds after a napalm attack

 

Trust me. IF you ever get the chance to go to Vietnam on vacation, the Tour Guide takes you to a photographic museum of the war.

 

THAT photo was possibly THE least horrific in the entire place. Mrs D_P had to leave it was horrific.

 

Then while we are on the subject what about the Nation that used Chemical Weapons that even TODAY are still causing Birth Defects.

 

I haven't seen anyone bombed for that.

 

Agent Orange anyone?

[dubai_phil]

The Arab Spring started in Iran. It was an attempt by "Younger Middle Class" to rise up against the Ayatollahs. They came up with the concept of using Social Media to stoke the fires. They got it wrong. They made mistakes. It was Bloody. Nothing changed.

 

So the Arab spring started outside of Arabia then, those bloody Iranians, always thought they wanted to be Arabs rather than Persians.

 

Good post though.

 

Yep it was 2009. God forgive me but I have forgotten the name of the poor girl who became a cause celebre and was murdered on live TV.

 

Now what did the Yanks do to help that uprising? Or to bring to Justice the Evil forces that murdered defenceless civilians?

 

Oh yeah they fined Standard Chartered Bank a couple of million

[Badger]

It sounds like a complete cluster-f*ck of a situation and the UN need to sort it out, whoever was responsible for the chemical attack doesn't matter - something needs to be done.

 

It's just not our problem though and not one single UK serviceman should be put in harms way. We are just a small skint island of the north of Europe - time to let another country be the World's police.

 

I'm sick to death of this British attitude that seems to think the World's problems are ours. Vote for action, put diplomatic pressure on - then sit back and watch another country get their hands dirty for once.

 

Agree.

 

I heard on the radio last week that the French Govt were "calling for action..". Good idea, I thought, now why don't you get on with it ? But of course we know they have the good sense to sit back and wait for us and the Yanks to get involved and take the burden of the cost.

 

Tonight we hear Cameron hinting at "not standing by .."etc. No thought as to the cost to the country. At a time we are facing cuts at home and the NHS could do with some investment, Cameron is pre-occupied with policing the arab world.

[Batman]

Thursday it is then, cruise missile factories must be running short on orders. Hope they've not something nasty in the woodshed that pitched up from Iraq in the 90s then.

 

funny you should say that. the annual taskforce is on its way through the med to the indian ocean

subs, firgates, destroyers, assault ships from the RN already out there

 

bit convenient

 

 

as for the govt saying 'we will not stand by'

 

well, hows about stop tearing apart the already small forces so we can carry out such actions adequately

[Verbal]

 

Yep it was 2009. God forgive me but I have forgotten the name of the poor girl who became a cause celebre and was murdered on live TV.

 

Now what did the Yanks do to help that uprising? Or to bring to Justice the Evil forces that murdered defenceless civilians?

 

Oh yeah they fined Standard Chartered Bank a couple of million

 

Neda Agha-Soltan. The regime made strenuous claims that her death was faked by the leaders of the Green Revolution, and that she was alive and well. Actually there was some confusion in the West because a file photo used repeatedly in British and American papers mixed her up with an Iranian academic called Neda Soltani, whose life was made hell when Ahmadinejad's goons tried to force her to admit publicly that she was her dead near-namesake. It's a telling example of the ferocious regime misinformation campaigns that have accompanied all uprisings in the Middle East.

[Sheaf Saint]

All of the rhetoric on the radio this morning is eerily reminiscent of the events running up to the invasion of Iraq 10 years ago, and it seems that Cameron has already made up his mind that we need to intervene, with or without a UN mandate.

 

The British public will have learned the lesson from last time (I hope). If the government intend to commit out armed forces to operations in Syria we need to be shown concrete evidence that Assad's army was responsible for the chemical attack, not dodgy dossiers and sexed-up intelligence that will be proven false in years to come.

 

The humanitarian disaster that is happening in Syria is shocking and saddening, but I fear that if we and the rest of the UN countries get involved it will just be another Iraq/Afghanistan. Rather than making Syria a safer place for the people that live there, the country will descend into turmoil and years of civil war. I also have grave concerns about the fact that we appear to be supporting Al-Qaida who are the main proponents of the opposition forces. If so then what exactly was the point of the the billions of pounds spent and the hundreds of lives sacrificed in Afghanistan over the last 12 years?

[bridge too far]

Am I completely misunderstanding the situation or is this all, in reality, centred around 'protecting' Israel?

[dubai_phil]

Am I completely misunderstanding the situation or is this all, in reality, centred around 'protecting' Israel?

 

Deep down probably yes.

 

Right now? This is more a case of the Iranian issue. Israel & US want to wipe out the Ayatollahs BEFORE they get their hands on Nukes.

World Opinion is making that very difficult

 

But the stupid thing is that it's not ONLY Israel that has issues with Iran. The Saudis have been fighting a mini-war (sorry Arab Spring) proxy in Bahrain, the UAE runs to the UN every 6 months about the theft of a couple of Islands & the Qataris' can't make their minds up, one week they opened Israeli Trade Missions, the next they are funding rebel groups in Syria who are fighting Saudi funded groups in Syria.

 

Don't even TRY and make this simple. It is a monumental Cluster f***

 

And all this let's Bomb the bstd rhetoric is just a disaster.

 

WHAT is the End Game you Idiots?

 

There is NO unified Resistance to Bashar, hell they couldn't even turn up for a conference to list what they wanted once he was gone.

 

At least under Bashar the Russians had some influence & the UN had access to The Golan Heights & Peackeepers in country. Obama & Camoron turn it into Somalia? WTF do they think will happen then?

 

Get the End game sorted THEN blow the asshole up

 

Christ, how many times do they need to make the same mistake?

 

Or is it that they never REALLY took it seriously as there was no big OIL opportunities in the country

[TheSpankBoy]

Think any kind of military action against Syria is a massive step up in terms of the opposition we faced in Iraq and Afghanistan. The country in a shambles but they a well run army and better equipment. Its one of the reasons everyone threatens N.Korea and Iran but never does anything. They will actually dig in and fight back.

[pap]

All of the rhetoric on the radio this morning is eerily reminiscent of the events running up to the invasion of Iraq 10 years ago, and it seems that Cameron has already made up his mind that we need to intervene, with or without a UN mandate.

 

The British public will have learned the lesson from last time (I hope). If the government intend to commit out armed forces to operations in Syria we need to be shown concrete evidence that Assad's army was responsible for the chemical attack, not dodgy dossiers and sexed-up intelligence that will be proven false in years to come.

 

Agreed. We were lied to then. I believe we're being lied to now. Every piece of information that comes out of Syria is being twisted into the "Assad did it" narrative. We have our foreign secretary spouting certainty about the events, when in reality, the only certainty is that we're going in. Everything else will be arranged to fit that reality.

 

I've no doubt that something will be produced by the West to justify their pre-meditated plans. Almost every story on R4 at the moment is pure, unbridled propaganda.

 

What amazes and encourages me is that very few people seem to be falling for it.

 

According to a YouGov poll released last night, 2/3rds of Britons are against bombing strikes. Talk about troops on the ground and the proportion against rises to 90%.

 

The humanitarian disaster that is happening in Syria is shocking and saddening, but I fear that if we and the rest of the UN countries get involved it will just be another Iraq/Afghanistan. Rather than making Syria a safer place for the people that live there, the country will descend into turmoil and years of civil war. I also have grave concerns about the fact that we appear to be supporting Al-Qaida who are the main proponents of the opposition forces. If so then what exactly was the point of the the billions of pounds spent and the hundreds of lives sacrificed in Afghanistan over the last 12 years?

 

The point is the same as it ever was. Grab the vast majority of the world's natural resources and get them into the hands of Western corporates. It's going very well.

[aintforever]

Agreed. We were lied to then. I believe we're being lied to now. Every piece of information that comes out of Syria is being twisted into the "Assad did it" narrative. We have our foreign secretary spouting certainty about the events, when in reality, the only certainty is that we're going in. Everything else will be arranged to fit that reality.

 

I've no doubt that something will be produced by the West to justify their pre-meditated plans. Almost every story on R4 at the moment is pure, unbridled propaganda.

 

What amazes and encourages me is that very few people seem to be falling for it.

 

According to a YouGov poll released last night, 2/3rds of Britons are against bombing strikes. Talk about troops on the ground and the proportion against rises to 90%.

 

 

 

The point is the same as it ever was. Grab the vast majority of the world's natural resources and get them into the hands of Western corporates. It's going very well.

 

The problem is we don't KNOW we are being lied to. The US, UK and France have been itching to get rid of the Syrian regime for ages so it does make anything they say unbelievable but if Assad is gassing his own people then something needs to be done - and will be despite any conspiracy theories.

 

I doubt what the UN inspectors will say will make much difference, they will just find a bunch of shells that had gas in. The US will already know who was responsible.

[Viking Warrior]

My concern .and while the likes of Pap go on about the UK and Us about involvement. I do not hear much debate or rhetoric re Russia idley standing by. Perhaps they have more to gain from Oil and gas reserves by not intervening. perhaps they are the ones supplying whoever with chemical weapons in syria

[Viking Warrior]

Havent russia used Chemical weapons in afghan and China somewhere else?

 

I have vague recollections of Gorbachov commissioning a 5 yrear programme sometime in the 80/s

[pap]

The problem is we don't KNOW we are being lied to. The US, UK and France have been itching to get rid of the Syrian regime for ages so it does make anything they say unbelievable but if Assad is gassing his own people then something needs to be done - and will be despite any conspiracy theories.

 

I doubt what the UN inspectors will say will make much difference, they will just find a bunch of shells that had gas in. The US will already know who was responsible.

 

We don't know in the judicial proof sense, I agree. However, there has been a massive rush to judgement on the whole issue and I simply don't understand how our foreign secretary, without any evidence, can continue to assert that Assad was responsible and that taxpayer money should pay to oust him.

 

This was only ever going one way. It's a pre-meditated stepping stone on the way to Iran.

[pap]

My concern .and while the likes of Pap go on about the UK and Us about involvement. I do not hear much debate or rhetoric re Russia idley standing by. Perhaps they have more to gain from Oil and gas reserves by not intervening. perhaps they are the ones supplying whoever with chemical weapons in syria

 

Russia are not standing by.

 

They're simply not buying Hague and Kerry's proof-less assertions that the Assad regime was responsible.

[Gemmel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23849587

 

Snapshot overview of different country's position on it all.

[Sheaf Saint]

The US will already know who was responsible.

 

How?

 

What makes you so sure?

[aintforever]

How?

 

What makes you so sure?

 

France are already supplying the rebels with arms, as are other countries like Quatar so there will be plenty of communication with the West. Plus the proximity to Israel means there are bound to be agents on the ground.

 

The idea that we are waiting for a few UN inspectors to get permission to go in until we find out what is going on is just bizarre.

[alpine_saint]

Russia are not standing by.

 

They're simply not buying Hague and Kerry's proof-less assertions that the Assad regime was responsible.

 

Oh, how noble and just Putin and the Russian Government are.

 

They are propping up the Syrian regime because they want to keep their influence, and their naval base, in the area. You'd be up in the arms about such cynical behaviour from the US.

[alpine_saint]

My concern .and while the likes of Pap go on about the UK and Us about involvement. I do not hear much debate or rhetoric re Russia idley standing by. Perhaps they have more to gain from Oil and gas reserves by not intervening. perhaps they are the ones supplying whoever with chemical weapons in syria

 

I believe the likes of Sarin have a very limited storage life, so they need to at least be getting precursors from somewhere...

[Window Cleaner]

Agree.

 

I heard on the radio last week that the French Govt were "calling for action..". Good idea, I thought, now why don't you get on with it ? But of course we know they have the good sense to sit back and wait for us and the Yanks to get involved and take the burden of the cost.

 

Tonight we hear Cameron hinting at "not standing by .."etc. No thought as to the cost to the country. At a time we are facing cuts at home and the NHS could do with some investment, Cameron is pre-occupied with policing the arab world.

 

The French can't just "get on with it just now because the Charles de Gaulle is still in dry dock and the only surface vessel actually capable of launching cruise missiles is not yet in active service. So that would mean sending one of the nuclear capable submarines down there and that won't happen. The Aquitaine will be in active service probably by the end of September and the modified Scalps are ready to go....in theory. However now Fabius is saying well yes indignation is all well and good but now we need to reflect on the situation..

Edited 28 August, 2013 by Window Cleaner

[Viking Warrior]

Oh come on pap . It's all well and good to blame Cameron and co . But again you seem to be supporting the Russians in their stance . They support Assad . I have no idea who used the weapons apart from the fact they were used . If its the other lot then I would have thought the Russians would have provided evidence that it was the rebels .

[hypochondriac]

It is a shame Pap that when you have some decent points to make (as you do here for example) it is difficult to take you seriously due to the bizarre conspiracies you chose to entertain regarding 9/11 and the recent London attack.

[pap]

Oh come on pap . It's all well and good to blame Cameron and co . But again you seem to be supporting the Russians in their stance . They support Assad . I have no idea who used the weapons apart from the fact they were used . If its the other lot then I would have thought the Russians would have provided evidence that it was the rebels .

 

There's a big difference between Russia and the Western agitators. Only one group is looking to start a war. I completely accept that Russia will have its own motives here. It does business with Syria, and has been a long-time ally.

 

We have no place in this conflict, which wouldn't exist without funding from other Arab states. I've been enjoying Dubai Phil's perspective on all of this. People talk of the war in Syria as if its just another spurt from the Arab Spring. The reality is that external powers have been seeking to effect regime change for the past two years. Seen in that context, we have every reason to question the responsible parties, particularly as the "Assad is undeniably guilty" ( even though we have no proof ) is being used to justify another attack on a country that hasn't attacked us. Syria was told in no uncertain terms that the use of chemical weapons was a red line that'd invite international condemnation and mobilisation. That it would choose to do so when it has the upper hand is a ridiculous notion.

 

I'd like to think that the pair of us have more respect for each others' posts than perhaps has been the case in the past, and I'm not suggesting Assad is an angel. However, we will lose more moral authority through these actions. Anyone outside our Anglo-American bubble with a map can see what is happening here. Compare the stability of that region with what is was 20 years ago and ask yourself, is more Western intervention the solution or the problem?

 

We need to get the f**k out of that region, get an independent foreign policy and act like the "been there, done it" mature nation we surely are. Hopefully, some future Prime Minister will have the balls to apologise for the hell we've helped to create in the region.

Edited 28 August, 2013 by pap