English players...

[sentry]

The first weekend of the PL (and I cant find the link so forgive me) had the least number of English men play in history. Saints had 7 start (well over half the team including 3 18 year olds).

 

Do you think it is important to field english men? Or does it not matter what nationality of person we bring through the ranks, scottish or french or otherwise?

 

Personally I love either a local kid or english kid breaking through to the first time just as much as the big signings coming in this summer. Im always Saints first, but do like to watch Saints players represent their country too.

 

And (not joking) in a couple of years with the current crop we have may have 5 or 6 players in the england team.

[skintsaint]

I think this is the link? If not I just read this which is similar.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/19/england-qualified-players-premier-league

[Bucks Saint]

We are some way ahead of the "norm" so I am happy.

 

Saw an article in the Standard last night which hailed the performances of Sturridge, Barkely (Everton), and Luke for us, and then concluded: "Now would someone please take me, just one more time, through the argument about young English players being stifled by the polygot Premier League?"

Edited 20 August, 2013 by Bucks Saint

[dellboypete]

one of the articles in said that it was the first time in Premier League history that a team had started with 3 players aged 18 or under.

 

Our academy has been getting some excellent exposure and reviews/reports over the past year and it looks like it will continue to do so

[oldsarum]

I think this is the link? If not I just read this which is similar.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/19/england-qualified-players-premier-league

 

 

Lazy journalism again Jay Rod is also English played for U21's and Started so should be 6 English players for Saints

 

Annoyed me this morning when Parry was on Talksport talking about this subject and never mentioned how Saints were setting a good example and how we''d played three 18yr old's in starting line up Saturday

[goneawol]

Southampton fielded the youngest pair of full backs in Premier League history on Saturday.

Right-back Calum Chambers was 18 years and 36 days old while on the opposite flank Luke Shaw was only 173 days older at 18 years and 228 days.

They were far younger than Gary and Phil Neville who were the previous youngest aged 20 and 18 respectively when they appeared for Manchester United against Liverpool in 1995.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2397450/New-Southampton-signing-Pablo-Daniel-Osvaldo-share-bust-ups.html

[Professor]

The first weekend of the PL (and I cant find the link so forgive me) had the least number of English men play in history. Saints had 7 start (well over half the team including 3 18 year olds).

Do you think it is important to field english men? Or does it not matter what nationality of person we bring through the ranks, scottish or french or otherwise?

Personally I love either a local kid or english kid breaking through to the first time just as much as the big signings coming in this summer. Im always Saints first, but do like to watch Saints players represent their country too.

And (not joking) in a couple of years with the current crop we have may have 5 or 6 players in the england team.

 

I think we had 6 English players start against WBA, not 7, but the point is well made nonetheless. Our non-English starters were Boruk, Lovren, Fonte, Schneiderlin and Wanyama.

[PercyR]

Southampton fielded the youngest pair of full backs in Premier League history on Saturday.

Right-back Calum Chambers was 18 years and 36 days old while on the opposite flank Luke Shaw was only 173 days older at 18 years and 228 days.

They were far younger than Gary and Phil Neville who were the previous youngest aged 20 and 18 respectively when they appeared for Manchester United against Liverpool in 1995.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2397450/New-Southampton-signing-Pablo-Daniel-Osvaldo-share-bust-ups.html

 

They've got that the wrong way round as Luke Shaw on turned 18 last month as was therefore able to sign to his contract...typical Daily Mail journalism

[stevegrant]

Worth noting the stat about this weekend seeing the lowest number of English-qualified players starting games isn't quite true.

 

75 of 220 starters were English this weekend, while there apparently has been a weekend in the past where there were only 62. A pretty sad state of affairs whichever way you look at it, mind you.

[Wes Tender]

Southampton also features in a great little item of pub quiz trivia, as the venue for the first Premiership match where there was not a single British player in a team. That was Chelsea at the Dell on Boxing Day 1999, although Morris got 3 minutes as a substitute from the 87th minute. Dennis Rofe had a good bit of sport at half-time welcoming them all in the three or four languages of their nationalities. A very young Terry was on their bench but didn't play.

[Eastcowzer]

Southampton also features in a great little item of pub quiz trivia, as the venue for the first Premiership match where there was not a single British player in a team. That was Chelsea at the Dell on Boxing Day 1999, although Morris got 3 minutes as a substitute from the 87th minute. Dennis Rofe had a good bit of sport at half-time welcoming them all in the three or four languages of their nationalities. A very young Terry was on their bench but didn't play.

 

Just as a point of interest Saints now have the ability to field players from 14 different nationalities

[Barry Sanchez]

A ruling should be brought in, its crazy, 70% of a 25 man squad should be British/English, its holding back our National team and ironically the Premiership, the League is failing to attract the very best of the Worlds finest now and as Ligue 1, La Liga, the Bundesliga and others improve we will fall behind if we chase them and not concentrate on clubs and the League developing players without buying instant gratification.

This League is getting weaker year on year as opposed to getting stronger.

[Bucks Saint]

A ruling should be brought in, its crazy, 70% of a 25 man squad should be British/English, its holding back our National team and ironically the Premiership, the League is failing to attract the very best of the Worlds finest now and as Ligue 1, La Liga, the Bundesliga and others improve we will fall behind if we chase them and not concentrate on clubs and the League developing players without buying instant gratification.

This League is getting weaker year on year as opposed to getting stronger.

 

Saw an article in the Standard last night which hailed the performances of Sturridge, Barkely (Everton), and Luke for us, and then concluded: "Now would someone please take me, just one more time, through the argument about young English players being stifled by the polygot Premier League?"

 

It starts much earlier on, with the real youngsters, the standard of coaching, the insistence on kids playing on full size pitches (fitness and physical development over skills) and so on. When they reach 17-20, if they are good enough, they will play no matter how many foreigners there are, even if occasionally a move to another club is needed (Sturridge)

[Saint Garrett]

A ruling should be brought in, its crazy, 70% of a 25 man squad should be British/English, its holding back our National team and ironically the Premiership, the League is failing to attract the very best of the Worlds finest now and as Ligue 1, La Liga, the Bundesliga and others improve we will fall behind if we chase them and not concentrate on clubs and the League developing players without buying instant gratification.

This League is getting weaker year on year as opposed to getting stronger.

 

It's holding back the National team, but wouldn't say it's holding the premiership. If we only had british players in the prem, then we'd be a long way behind the rest of the top leagues, as they're just not very good compared to top foreign players.

 

Can't imagine there is too many English players in the top 100 players in the world...

[Smirking_Saint]

A ruling should be brought in, its crazy, 70% of a 25 man squad should be British/English, its holding back our National team and ironically the Premiership, the League is failing to attract the very best of the Worlds finest now and as Ligue 1, La Liga, the Bundesliga and others improve we will fall behind if we chase them and not concentrate on clubs and the League developing players without buying instant gratification.

This League is getting weaker year on year as opposed to getting stronger.

 

The coaching also was in bad need for a revamp but this is thankfully happening right now and money is being spent, new ideas embraced etc which is a very good thing.

 

But I agree with this, the only problem is that it will need to be a Fifa directive IMHO to keep everything competetive and you are bound to have a fight with employment law and freedom of trade etc. but yes, I have been saying this for a long long time.

 

I was also talking to some youth coaches over the weekend that are involved in certain PL teams that told me something very interesting. It was that they are seriously worried about the UK culture and how it is affecting young children. He was saying they are still seeing players with very good technical ability but many turn up overweight and lacking stamina these days and the difficulty is trying to tear them away from their computers etc. Past governments also dont help as they are removing green spaces etc but its an interesting insight into modern academies.

[Barry Sanchez]

It's holding back the National team, but wouldn't say it's holding the premiership. If we only had british players in the prem, then we'd be a long way behind the rest of the top leagues, as they're just not very good compared to top foreign players.

 

Can't imagine there is too many English players in the top 100 players in the world...

 

Really? I can only go on our previous and when thats was we dominated Europe far more than now for 10 years winning everything.

[DuncanRG]

the League is failing to attract the very best of the Worlds finest

 

without buying instant gratification.

 

Right-o

 

Can someone explain how it holds back the national team? I've never understood as surely if a player has potential for international football, they'll find a way to play in the premier league. Are we suggesting there's great talent not making it because of foreign players?

 

That's exactly it. The raw talent doesn't change, but in the latter stages of a player's development, when they need game time at the top level to improve, these players can often find their pathway blocked by foreign players who have been brought in already developed - see why Southampton are trying to give academy players opportunities in the first team. It's no good saying 'if they're good enough they'll get in the team', the point is that if they're not given the opportunities they'll never become good enough.

Edited 20 August, 2013 by DuncanRG

[The9]

We are some way ahead of the "norm" so I am happy.

 

Saw an article in the Standard last night which hailed the performances of Sturridge, Barkely (Everton), and Luke for us, and then concluded: "Now would someone please take me, just one more time, through the argument about young English players being stifled by the polygot Premier League?"

 

I'd imagine the argument is that the depth of quality is impacted because the higher overall standard of the league compared to when it was mostly Brits means that there are fewer opportunities for kids to get starts, which means they don't develop as well as they would if they were playing regularly.

 

Some, the very very top ones, will become better for playing alongside a better standard of player, but most just won't get the opportunity to play.

 

There are assumptions there that 1) having better players in the same team does help with young player development and 2) that the standard overall IS better than it was in, say, 1993, but I think they're reasonable, and that it is much tougher for a "normal standard" young player with potential to get into the first team regularly than it was back then.

 

Saints are the exception to this, but even with us being prepared to try Shaw and JWP, it's still taken an injury to Clyne for Chambers to get a run.

[Barry Sanchez]

The coaching also was in bad need for a revamp but this is thankfully happening right now and money is being spent, new ideas embraced etc which is a very good thing.

 

But I agree with this, the only problem is that it will need to be a Fifa directive IMHO to keep everything competetive and you are bound to have a fight with employment law and freedom of trade etc. but yes, I have been saying this for a long long time.

 

I was also talking to some youth coaches over the weekend that are involved in certain PL teams that told me something very interesting. It was that they are seriously worried about the UK culture and how it is affecting young children. He was saying they are still seeing players with very good technical ability but many turn up overweight and lacking stamina these days and the difficulty is trying to tear them away from their computers etc. Past governments also dont help as they are removing green spaces etc but its an interesting insight into modern academies.

 

Its the fact the best and brightest of our youngest are put on the sidelines as clubs buy up the talent and dont play them, it happens all the time.

There could be a number of ways to achieve this, statutory for clubs to play 3 British youth team players in the 1st team, wage caps, transfers windows that are shorter, can only sign a certain number of players in a window, transfer caps.

 

We have been sold a great lie, we know our League is not the best so we are told its the most exciting, we are told our atmosphere is not what is was but are told we have new stadiums and are safe instead, we ahve been told not playing English players in the Premeirship does not affect our National team when its blatantly obvious it does.

 

In short they are ****ing down our leg and saying its raining.

 

 

All the money that has come into this League and where has it gone?

Wages and Transfers in the main nothing thats getting put back into the grass roots.

[Pastor Patrón]

I for one miss the glory days of the 90's when England would win every tournament.

[Wes Tender]

Just as a point of interest Saints now have the ability to field players from 14 different nationalities

 

Yes, for some time now we have had the numbers on our books in order to field a non-English team. But thankfully there have been enough English players available who get into the team on merit. We should also be thankful that we have a policy of blooding players via our academy, where the majority will be English.

[Smirking_Saint]

Can someone explain how it holds back the national team? I've never understood as surely if a player has potential for international football, they'll find a way to play in the premier league. Are we suggesting there's great talent not making it because of foreign players?

 

Honestly, what I've seen since the foreign influx is technically better british players, better coaching, better fitness, better nutrition etc. Not having a world class playmaker or striker just happens sometimes, there's no divine right to it. We had a glut of them and now we're struggling, but there's plenty of young talent. Academies and coaching is better than ever. Think there's just a lack of patience, some feeling of a right to win things, when most nations don't, and too many excuses for poor management.

 

Would Lambert have made it earlier without foreign players? Maybe, but he's admitted himself he wasn't ready when younger, didn't take things seriously enough etc., so probably wouldn't have made a difference.

 

Whilst what you say is true, the very very best will always rise to the top in the form of your Wilsheres, Barkleys, Sterlings etc those that are not quite there are not going to get the game time to improve that they probably need. I think it is sort of obvious, as we debated earlier in the England thread that under what are the obvious England picks there just isnt enough depth of talent that many of the other nations have, this gets watered down to the youth levels of international game too.

 

What Im saying is it certainly will not restrict the best, but it coukd restrict those that need a bit more development reaching their best. Many players develop over longer periods in the same way that some are a big thing at 17 and end up playing for Crewe at 23.

 

Although Saints certainly show what can happen with patience and what is a very well developed academy (reed has had a lot to do with that btw) and so you are able to blood youngsters. Are they good enough consistantly ? Perhaps not when instant results mean everything but it will certainly help their career

 

Oh, and if I was the FA Id tell any little git that decides he doesnt want to play for the U19's, U21's etc that he is basically denting his hopes for a senior cap. Rewarding that sort of thing with a senior call up basically destroying what we should be building into the England set up and that is passion to wear the shirt, a team should be grown in the youth internationals to gel, gain experience and grow together playing yhe same tactics as the senior side.

Edited 20 August, 2013 by Smirking_Saint

[DuncanRG]

Whilst what you say is true, the very very best will always rise to the top in the form of your Wilsheres, Barkleys, Sterlings etc

 

It's interesting you say that - if Moyes had stayed at Everton would Ross Barkley have been able to fulfil his potential there, where he wasn't getting a game? We wouldn't be naming him as one of our top talents if Martinez hadn't started him at the weekend.

 

We might not have known that Luke Shaw has the potential to become a top class international full back if Southampton had brought in a good left back from another country. It's naive to think that the young English players getting games are the only ones who will ever be good enough to play for the national team.

Edited 20 August, 2013 by DuncanRG

[Smirking_Saint]

It's interesting you say that - if Moyes had stayed at Everton would Ross Barkley have been able to fulfil his potential there, where he wasn't getting a game? We wouldn't be naming him as one of our top talents if Martinez hadn't started him at the weekend.

 

I think he was there or there abouts, Evertons midfield has had to be adjusted slightly as Neville has retired and maybe Martinez has realised that Osman isnt very good.

 

You may be right though, sometimes your face doesnt fit but Barkleys name has bubbled under the scenes for a while.

[Barry Sanchez]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/aug/19/football-clubs-minimum-wage-hmrc

 

 

My point here, all the money has not gone to all the people, less money less corruption.

[The9]

My thinking generally is that since the start of the Prem there's been a "better" level of player grafted onto the top of English football. Once the likes of Bergkamp and Klinsmann came over, the sheer number of top quality players went up, and "local" players who would have once had 2 or 3 seasons to improve now just get replaced by cheap imports who already have the experience.

 

This impacts on the national side because there are fewer players at the top level to choose from. The media spotlight on the England manager means picking from the Championship or lower (as was regularly the case) is MUCH less likely to happen, which is also added to by the fact that scouting is now far more wide-reaching and anyone showing promise at a very early age is already known and siphoned up by the top clubs - who can only pick 11 people at a time.

 

So you have fewer players getting top level experience to begin with, plus many live in a bubble in which their nation is not as important as their wallet, there's also a whole tier of potential being lost in top club reserves, and many more playing at lower levels who aren't surrounded by the conditions to improve, and a manager who can't risk picking unfashionable players or he's got the papers hammering him.

[Wes Tender]

Its the fact the best and brightest of our youngest are put on the sidelines as clubs buy up the talent and dont play them, it happens all the time.

There could be a number of ways to achieve this, statutory for clubs to play 3 British youth team players in the 1st team, wage caps, transfers windows that are shorter, can only sign a certain number of players in a window, transfer caps.

 

We have been sold a great lie, we know our League is not the best so we are told its the most exciting, we are told our atmosphere is not what is was but are told we have new stadiums and are safe instead, we ahve been told not playing English players in the Premeirship does not affect our National team when its blatantly obvious it does.

 

In short they are ****ing down our leg and saying its raining.

 

 

All the money that has come into this League and where has it gone?

Wages and Transfers in the main nothing thats getting put back into the grass roots.

 

Again, one of the few occasions when I find myself in complete agreement with you Barry.

 

It seems obvious to me that the more expensive and quality foreigners there are imported into the Premiership teams, the less opportunity there will be for English players to play at that level. As you say, there should be some sort of limitation placed on the number of foreign players in a squad. Whether that would contravene legislation on job opportunities, I don't know. But I don't see why it should be that we would be unable to set a reasonable cap on the number of foreign players on the basis of nationality, any more so than the governing body of football are allowed to stipulate that teams should be comprised of men, without being charged with discrimination against women.

[Smirking_Saint]

Its the fact the best and brightest of our youngest are put on the sidelines as clubs buy up the talent and dont play them, it happens all the time.

There could be a number of ways to achieve this, statutory for clubs to play 3 British youth team players in the 1st team, wage caps, transfers windows that are shorter, can only sign a certain number of players in a window, transfer caps.

 

We have been sold a great lie, we know our League is not the best so we are told its the most exciting, we are told our atmosphere is not what is was but are told we have new stadiums and are safe instead, we ahve been told not playing English players in the Premeirship does not affect our National team when its blatantly obvious it does.

 

In short they are ****ing down our leg and saying its raining.

 

 

All the money that has come into this League and where has it gone?

Wages and Transfers in the main nothing thats getting put back into the grass roots.

 

I still think our league is the best league in the fact that the competition is a lot closer and is a lot better to watch, the other leagues are basically just 2 teams fighting for the top spot and that is normally because it is those to whom all the money goes.

 

The influx of players due to the need for instant success is definately restricting youth though, that to me is obvious.

[The9]

It's interesting you say that - if Moyes had stayed at Everton would Ross Barkley have been able to fulfil his potential there, where he wasn't getting a game? We wouldn't be naming him as one of our top talents if Martinez hadn't started him at the weekend.

 

Barkley was known as a potentially huge talent 2 years ago, some at Everton were talking about him like a new Rooney - and he was sent on loan to two Championship clubs with a view to becoming an integral part of the side this season. You don't farm out 17 year olds to Championship clubs unless you think they're going to be special.

 

He's only 19 now and Moyes clearly got it right.

[The9]

I think he was there or there abouts, Evertons midfield has had to be adjusted slightly as Neville has retired and maybe Martinez has realised that Osman isnt very good.

 

You may be right though, sometimes your face doesnt fit but Barkleys name has bubbled under the scenes for a while.

 

It's taken them 285 games and 38 goals to realise "Osman isn't very good" though. Maybe the fact he's now 32 is more of a factor ?

[Danbert]

There's a full list of all the English players starting in the Premier League last weekend here:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/20/premier-league-english-talent-margins

By my reckoning about 10% of them came through our academy...