Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Again that proves nothing. It proves Carrick is a good player, playing in a very good team who has won caps for a very average international team. You could use that same argument on Matt Le Tiss or Les Ferdinand. We all know who had the most successful career but we also know who was the best. There is no way of gauging who is better, its down to opinion and not Saints bias. Hang on a minute, you said earlier the opinions of people with a non saints bias don't matter and prove nothing, now you're saying they do matter and are the only gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 This thread is mental. Can we have a poll? If even 30% of people think that our midfield is better than Utd's, then I'll know never to come back on this forum again. Clueless, and people wonder why the WUMs are so prevalent?! It's because you give them gems like this, time and time again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 The problem with the thread is the title of it when OP then just compares 3 central midfielders..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 The problem with the thread is the title of it when OP then just compares 3 central midfielders..... It's still mental. If our central midfield really was better than the title winning side of last season, then the cream of European football would have been after Morgan and Cork and we wouldn't have been able to keep them.... Don't come back to me with Morgans stats. I know how good they were. When he's up there, for 3 or 4 seasons and still playing for us - then we can have the debate.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 It's still mental. If our central midfield really was better than the title winning side of last season, then the cream of European football would have been after Morgan and Cork and we wouldn't have been able to keep them.... Don't come back to me with Morgans stats. I know how good they were. When he's up there, for 3 or 4 seasons and still playing for us - then we can have the debate.. No I agree completely, just thought it was misleading. Of the six player mentioned though my personal rank would be like this. Carrick, Schneiderlin, Wanyama, Cleverley, Anderson, Cork. But then you have to add the other midfielders so if you put Giggs, Jones in the mix + all the right and left sided midfielders Man U is of course far better off than us.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 This thread is mental. Can we have a poll? If even 30% of people think that our midfield is better than Utd's, then I'll know never to come back on this forum again. Clueless, and people wonder why the WUMs are so prevalent?! It's because you give them gems like this, time and time again... No point in getting all precious about it if you're not even going to understand the main thrust of the argument. I don't see many believing that we have a better midfield overall than United. The comparison of the OP was between the three central midfielders and from what I can see, it has already been admitted by those who consider that our midfiled trio are better than United's, that when the wide midfield players are included, they have the better midfield. If you bothered to look at the comments supporting our three against theirs more closely, there is even then qualification from most that Wanyama is an unknown quantity. My own position is that it isn't a comparison between individuals, as the more salient point is whether they play well together and my opinion is that at least Cork and Schneiderlin are a better pairing from that perspective than Carrick and Cleverley. So if there were to be a poll, it shouldn't ask whether our midfield was better than ours, but I suspect that if those three players alone were polled against their three, I reckon more than 30% would vote that ours were better. And if they did, it isn't helpful to call them clueless or mental just because they don't share your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 This thread is mental. Can we have a poll? If even 30% of people think that our midfield is better than Utd's, then I'll know never to come back on this forum again. Clueless, and people wonder why the WUMs are so prevalent?! It's because you give them gems like this, time and time again... Sums up this forum mate, there are about 10 people on here who know what they are talking about, the majority of the others are utterly clueless ranging from not quite the full ticket to utterly insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 No point in getting all precious about it if you're not even going to understand the main thrust of the argument. I don't see many believing that we have a better midfield overall than United. The comparison of the OP was between the three central midfielders and from what I can see, it has already been admitted by those who consider that our midfiled trio are better than United's, that when the wide midfield players are included, they have the better midfield. If you bothered to look at the comments supporting our three against theirs more closely, there is even then qualification from most that Wanyama is an unknown quantity. My own position is that it isn't a comparison between individuals, as the more salient point is whether they play well together and my opinion is that at least Cork and Schneiderlin are a better pairing from that perspective than Carrick and Cleverley. So if there were to be a poll, it shouldn't ask whether our midfield was better than ours, but I suspect that if those three players alone were polled against their three, I reckon more than 30% would vote that ours were better. And if they did, it isn't helpful to call them clueless or mental just because they don't share your opinion. With the main debating point being is Schniderlin better than Carrick, yes? Cork I think most have accepted isn't as good and Wanyama we just don't know. So going by that the answer has to be a resounding no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottery st mary Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Sums up this forum mate, there are about 10 people on here who know what they are talking about, the majority of the others are utterly clueless ranging from not quite the full ticket to utterly insane. Turkish...Would you do a list pleeeese.. Just so I know where I stand.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 No I agree completely, just thought it was misleading. Of the six player mentioned though my personal rank would be like this. Carrick, Schneiderlin, Wanyama, Cleverley, Anderson, Cork. But then you have to add the other midfielders so if you put Giggs, Jones in the mix + all the right and left sided midfielders Man U is of course far better off than us.... How can you put Wanyama third when he's completely unproven at this level? He night be there but you can't possibly say at this stage. Other than that is Agee with you rankings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottery st mary Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Sums up this forum mate, there are about 10 people on here who know what they are talking about, the majority of the others are utterly clueless ranging from not quite the full ticket to utterly insane. IF...... it helps I have a full list of all our fellow posters... who by some quirk of fate:rolleyes:..... happen to be on the books of my own physiatrist:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 How can you put Wanyama third when he's completely unproven at this level? He night be there but you can't possibly say at this stage. Other than that is Agee with you rankings. Just from what I´ve seen in CL games last year but it´s also a bit of potential in that rank I´d admit.... So it´s more a list of who would I prefer to have in my team the next couple of years rather than a rank of what they´ve done so far in their careers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Sums up this forum mate, there are about 10 people on here who know what they are talking about, the majority of the others are utterly clueless ranging from not quite the full ticket to utterly insane. You're right. This thread pretty much does sum up this forum, or maybe it's football fans in general. I certainly hear a majority of ****** at the stadium too. I'm all up for supporting your team and giving credit where credit is due, but some reality and/or realisation of the bigger picture needs to be present. This actually reminded me of when there were a voice of our fans claiming we were a bigger club than Spurs, as we'd finished above them a couple of times (when we finished 8th). Delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 You're right. This thread pretty much does sum up this forum, or maybe it's football fans in general. I certainly hear a majority of ****** at the stadium too. I'm all up for supporting your team and giving credit where credit is due, but some reality and/or realisation of the bigger picture needs to be present. This actually reminded me of when there were a voice of our fans claiming we were a bigger club than Spurs, as we'd finished above them a couple of times (when we finished 8th). Delusional. Kind of reminds me of MLG who fairly recently convinced himself that we have a bigger fanbase than Everton despite never in our history having had an average attendance higher than theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Kind of reminds me of MLG who fairly recently convinced himself that we have a bigger fanbase than Everton despite never in our history having had an average attendance higher than theirs. Not that I'm arguing in support of MLG, but a fanbase isn't just those who attend matches, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Not that I'm arguing in support of MLG, but a fanbase isn't just those who attend matches, is it? Fairly sure he was specifically referring to matchgoing fans. Can't be arsed to dig it up but it was pretty humorous at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Yes, more neutrals would say Carrick is better, because he's more famous, plays for a better side and they see him more. They're players of similar quality really. That or he actually is better. I think he is, by a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 It just so happens we have some very good players now. The midfield comparison was perfectly valid, but some just see the words Man Utd and think people are claiming we're better or have world class players etc. Too many potentially interesting threads just go the way of Turkish or Dune, usually both just making discussion impossible. Or perhaps some threads go the way you don't like it with others having an alternative viewpoint to yours? As usual, when someone expresses an opinion that doesn't run parallel with your own thoughts on the matter you bring out your snide, condescending witterings and put it down to trolling rather than actually accept that there may be an alternative point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 (edited) The bias claim just ruins threads like this, it was a decent discussion before that. Turkish seems to revel in knocking Saints fans, but all football clubs are going to have slightly biassed fans. It's partly real bias and partly just watching the team a lot more than neutrals. Yes, more neutrals would say Carrick is better, because he's more famous, plays for a better side and they see him more. They're players of similar quality really. It's a difficult contradiction that as Saints fans we're best placed to judge the ability of our players, yet least likely to be taken seriously. But to suggest it's a Saints thing to be bias rather than a football fan thing is just Turkish doing his usual thing. There's probably a few like him at every club, the anti-club bias. He thinks he's bringing some balance or opposite view, but to me he's amongst the most biassed of all, just in the opposite direction. Rather than sensibly adding to a discussion, he completely turns it around so anything positive or pro-Saints can only be bias. It's perfectly possible for there to be positives that aren't bias too. In fact, a lot of football fans, and many on here tend to be negative, expect the worse etc., rather than bigging everything up. It just so happens we have some very good players now. The midfield comparison was perfectly valid, but some just see the words Man Utd and think people are claiming we're better or have world class players etc. Too many potentially interesting threads just go the way of Turkish or Dune, usually both just making discussion impossible. You clearly haven't read the thread Adrian and are just making things up. Nothing like you say have happened on here from me. How is it knocking saints fans by saying they would have a bias towards one of our own players? Edited 10 August, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Fairly sure he was specifically referring to matchgoing fans. Can't be arsed to dig it up but it was pretty humorous at the time. Yes, he said 'its arguable saints have more match going fans than Everton' It was an all time great MLG quote. Either way match going or not we don't have more fans than Everton . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 How is it knocking saints fans by saying they would have a bias towards one of our own players? I think Adrian likes to throw the accusations around when the thread doesn't comply with his own little world view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Yes, he said 'its arguable saints have more match going fans than Everton' It was an all time great MLG quote. Either way match going or not we don't have more fans than Everton . That was it. And I believe he said it after our promotion season from the Championship, when we averaged around 26,000! That was evidence we had more match going fans than Everton! Brilliant stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Or perhaps some threads go the way you don't like it with others having an alternative viewpoint to yours? As usual, when someone expresses an opinion that doesn't run parallel with your own thoughts on the matter you bring out your snide, condescending witterings and put it down to trolling rather than actually accept that there may be an alternative point of view. Exactly, as I said earlier I believe the only player good enough to break into a consistant utd 11 would be Morgan and he still needs to produce again this year even if we dont talk about the vast differences in tactics. Excluding Anderson you have Fletcher, Jones, Giggs and Carrick all of which (talking ability not age) are better than Cork and probably Wanyama. Lets remember Wanyamas fans tell of an athletic box to box powerhouse mot necessarily a tidy middle of the pitch ball player. Cork may end up at Carricks level but he isnt there yet, as tidy as he is he just isnt expsnsive enough yet. I dont watch Utd week in week out but certainly see enough to make an opinion and rarely let my bias get in the way when discissing our players as its not useful to the debate. But hey, maybe Im not a Saints fan ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 (edited) To put this discussion into perspective West brom finished 8th and beat us easily twice with Mulumba bullying Schniderlin up there. What would be the view on here if West Brom fans started proclaiming their midfield was better than Man Us? Edited 10 August, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 To put this discussion into perspective West brom finished 8th and beat us easily twice with Mulumba bullying Schniderlin up there. What would be the view on here if West Brom fans started proclaiming their midfield was better than Man Us? Considering how acclaimed Argentinian internation Claudio Yacob and Youssouf Mulumbu were, it wouldn't be that big a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Exactly, as I said earlier I believe the only player good enough to break into a consistant utd 11 would be Morgan and he still needs to produce again this year even if we dont talk about the vast differences in tactics. Excluding Anderson you have Fletcher, Jones, Giggs and Carrick all of which (talking ability not age) are better than Cork and probably Wanyama. Lets remember Wanyamas fans tell of an athletic box to box powerhouse mot necessarily a tidy middle of the pitch ball player. Cork may end up at Carricks level but he isnt there yet, as tidy as he is he just isnt expsnsive enough yet. I dont watch Utd week in week out but certainly see enough to make an opinion and rarely let my bias get in the way when discissing our players as its not useful to the debate. But hey, maybe Im not a Saints fan ? You're biased mate, biased against Saints and have an anti saints agenda. how dare you say that Schniderlin isn't the best midfielder in the country and We are amazing. Do you support Saints, do you? You've just seen the words Man United and assumed they are brilliant without looking at the FACTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Considering how acclaimed Argentinian internation Claudio Yacob and Youssouf Mulumbu were, it wouldn't be that big a stretch. So do you think their midfield is better than Man Uniteds or not? What about west Hams? They best us 4-1 and we failed to beat them, they also finished above us. Is their midfield better than Man Uniteds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Exactly, as I said earlier I believe the only player good enough to break into a consistant utd 11 would be Morgan and he still needs to produce again this year even if we dont talk about the vast differences in tactics. Excluding Anderson you have Fletcher, Jones, Giggs and Carrick all of which (talking ability not age) are better than Cork and probably Wanyama. Lets remember Wanyamas fans tell of an athletic box to box powerhouse mot necessarily a tidy middle of the pitch ball player. Cork may end up at Carricks level but he isnt there yet, as tidy as he is he just isnt expsnsive enough yet. I dont watch Utd week in week out but certainly see enough to make an opinion and rarely let my bias get in the way when discissing our players as its not useful to the debate. But hey, maybe Im not a Saints fan ? And this is another good point. Its all well and good trying to compare Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson to Schneiderlin, Cork and Wanyama. But that leaves out a lot of players who have played CM for those clubs, so they have to be taken into account. Phil Jones started 13 league games and a number of CL games, many at CM; his performances against some of the top sides in England and Europe earned him an England cap or two at CM. Giggs played in 22 league games for United. On the flip side, JWP played in 16 league games for us, Steve Davis played in 32 games over the course of the season. So as close as people might want to believe it is between the originally listed 3 CMs of each club, when you look at the position in its entirety the answer becomes a lot clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 So do you think their midfield is better than Man Uniteds or not? What about west Hams? They best us 4-1 and we failed to beat them, they also finished above us. Is their midfield better than Man Uniteds? West Ham having a midfield?? Now you´re stretching it mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 So do you think their midfield is better than Man Uniteds or not? What about west Hams? They best us 4-1 and we failed to beat them, they also finished above us. Is their midfield better than Man Uniteds? Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson versus Yacob, Mulumbu Yeah, on their day West Brom's are at least a match for them. As you would expect the champions will have more strength in depth in that one position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 West Ham having a midfield?? Now you´re stretching it mate Two of them scored 3 of their goals in their 4-1 win against us. Their midfield must be better than ours, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson versus Yacob, Mulumbu Yeah, on their day West Brom's are at least a match for them. As you would expect the champions will have more strength in depth. So a midfield that dominated ours twice is a match for Man Us, but some on here are arguing ours is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 So a midfield that dominated ours twice is a match for Man Us, but some on here are arguing ours is better. West Brom defeated us on the break and through poor defending, not in central midfield. It is the nature of football that tactics can nullify strength in certain areas, it's where the managers make their money. Factor in form as well (we were terrible on the 27th April...) and that's why football is such a fascinating game. We also dominated Man Utd at Old Trafford among others but you need strength in other areas to maximise the positives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 West Brom defeated us on the break, not in central midfield. It is the nature of football that tactics can nullify strength in certain areas, it's where the managers make their money. And they dominated us up there in central midfield. Mulumba ran the game and was the best player on the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Two of them scored 3 of their goals in their 4-1 win against us. Their midfield must be better than ours, right? With that logic I guess we´re better than Chelsea then...? The future is bright, the future is red and whi.....oh...... The future is incred, the future is red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 I think the real question is: "Why has Garrett listed Anderson as United's third CM in the first place?" Anderson only started 9 league games last term, and came on as sub in another 8. That's less than half the league games; he's hardly their de facto "third" CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 And they dominated us up there in central midfield. Mulumba ran the game and was the best player on the pitch. Again, factor in form. Our midfield didn't gain plaudits last year needlessly, and West Brom's midfield were excellent as i've already stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 (edited) With that logic I guess we´re better than Chelsea then...? The future is bright, the future is red and whi.....oh...... The future is incred, the future is red. We didn't finish above Chelsea. Just adding to the discussion, if West Ham finished above us and two of their central midfielders scored against us in a 4-1 win then you could argue that their midfield players are better than ours. I don't think they are by the way, but if they started cliaiming Nolan and Noble were as good as cleverly and Carrick what would people say? Edited 10 August, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Again, factor in form. Our midfield didn't gain plaudits last year needlessly, and West Brom's midfield were excellent as i've already stated. Better than ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Better than ours? We were very dissapointing against West Brom last year in both games, so on that basis probably. On their day Yacob and Mulumbu were up there with the best midfield partnerships in the division. Thankfully for us Schneiderlin and Cork also proved effective when it mattered, add in Wanyama now and I would say it's the strongest position for us, thankfully, I believe we have the full-backs and forward options to compliment and make the most of it. How West Brom will cope without Lukaku and Fortuné this year will be critical for them. One position does not a team make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 We were very dissapointing against West Brom last year in both games, so on that basis probably. On their day Yacob and Mulumbu were up there with the best midfield partnerships in the division. Thankfully for us Schneiderlin and Cork also proved effective when it mattered, add in Wanyama now and I would say it's the strongest position for us, thankfully, I believe we have the full-backs and forward options to compliment and make the most of it. How West Brom will cope without Lukaku and Fortuné this year will be critical for them. One position does not a team make. I would agree with all of that TBH, time will tell on Wanyama but he would appear to give us the physical presence we lacked at times last season and by all accounts one of his strengths is breaking up counter attacks where we came undone a few times last season. Perhaps what it does emphasis is rather than worrying about if our midfield is as good as the champions, we should look at if its as good as one of the teams we want to overtake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 how come neither cork or morgan have been called up to their national teams if they are better than the champions of england? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 how come neither cork or morgan have been called up to their national teams if they are better than the champions of england? Because players outside of the big 4 don't get called up for England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 10 August, 2013 Share Posted 10 August, 2013 Because players outside of the big 4 don't get called up for England. even though they are miles better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 11 August, 2013 Share Posted 11 August, 2013 even though they are miles better? That seems to be the case, yes. And no-one on this thread has said that Cork or Schneiderlin are "miles better" than any current England or France internationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glasgow_Saint Posted 1 September, 2013 Share Posted 1 September, 2013 Locked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 1 September, 2013 Author Share Posted 1 September, 2013 I take it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 1 September, 2013 Share Posted 1 September, 2013 Forum gold, the clappers just cant help themselves, they cheer me up no end, their delusion is absolutely amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 1 September, 2013 Share Posted 1 September, 2013 And Chelsea because Lampard is sh*t. yes of course he is, I mean another over 30 and he couldn't outscore our Rickie in the Prem. last season........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 1 September, 2013 Share Posted 1 September, 2013 Utd'e midfield have been woeful so far. Cleverly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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