As it stands, do we have a better midfield than Utd?

[Turkish]

I just nipped outside and asked 10 people mate. Morgan won 6:4 and I'm not in Southampton!

 

I just asked 10 locals and only one of them had heard of Morgan Schniderlin.

[The9]

There was a large reason that Gerrard never went to a major club, despite tge fact any club in the world would have taken him (and yes, Real, Chelsea and Utd have made enquiries) and that was the only time he looked like moving the liverpool public threatened and shamed him into staying, this along with his loyalty.

 

As per his so called tactical awareness, its a bit lazy TBH, when he was younger he was very good at the more regimented side of the game in both Liverpool red or England white. The fact of the matter is he has BEEN liverpool for the last 10 years, never have I seen a player drag a club to victories, cup wins etc like him and certainly not Lampard who at best I would say was a very very able contributer at best.

 

Liverpool use him in the way they do because it is what he brings to the table and TBH its not 100m away from what chelsea do with Frank in the fact that teams were built around them, the only difference being that Frank has never been as dynamic and certainly not as rounded as a CM as Gerrard is/was. Nor do I remember FL ever being touted as the best CM in the world such as SG was only 5 or so years ago.

 

England had some v v able midfielders in their midst recently and in an effort to incorperate them all callously wasted them.

 

Lampard is good but looking at the two how anyone can pick him over Gerrard is rediculous.

 

I think you make fair points, but Lampard has made a significant contribution to Chelsea and the only reason Gerrard's looks more important to Liverpool is because Chelsea also had others making them successful - even in that environment Lampard's contribution was still outstanding. Gerrard in Chelsea's side wouldn't have looked as outstanding - it's open to question whether Lampard could have dragged Liverpool to the success they had in Gerrard's place, but just because someone else is also good doesn't make a good player worse.

[Toadhall Saint]

I just asked 10 locals and only one of them had heard of Morgan Schniderlin.

 

Which would make sense given the media exposure that Man U get compared to SFC.

[The Kraken]

Which would make sense given the media exposure that Man U get compared to SFC.

I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that one good reason they get a lot of media exposure is that their players are predominantly better than ours.

[grezz]

Go and ask 10 neutrals who they think is the better player, MOrgan Schniderlin or Michael Carrrick. I would bet at least 8 of them would say Carrick, yet here the majority would say Schniderlin. That is Saints bias.

 

We finished 48 points behind them because their best players are better than our best players and our less players are not as good as their lesser players.

 

It really is quite simple.

 

I think those 8 people would say Carrick because they are more aware of him than they are Morgan. I didn't see every Man Utd game last season but I bet most people saw a whole lot more of Carrick than they did Morgan and that kind of works like advertising.

 

Based on what I saw, Morgan had the more impressive season last year but if you ask me who is the better player I would say Carrick. He's rock steady, calm, always appears to have loads of time on the ball and simply doesn't give the ball away. I like that, but I like Morgan too and if he can perform as he did last season for the rest of his career then i'd probably have to rethink my opinion

[The9]

Go and ask 10 neutrals who they think is the better player, MOrgan Schniderlin or Michael Carrrick. I would bet at least 8 of them would say Carrick, yet here the majority would say Schniderlin. That is Saints bias.

 

We finished 48 points behind them because their best players are better than our best players and our less players are not as good as their lesser players.

It really is quite simple.

 

Yes, that is Saints bias, but that doesn't mean anyone coming to that conclusion is doing so due to Saints bias - and lets face it, that sample size is subject to a lot of random factors and in no way indicative of anything useful. Even a huge sample would suffer from media bias.

 

The bit in bold, yes, absolutely, but that's not the same as you saying our best players are automatically not as good as any one of theirs, which is what you implied by mentioning Saints bias - and have repeated by saying our best are their middling players. It's true of the overall squad standard and can be seen in the League table, as you've said, but there are individual examples where that's not the case.

 

Anyway, we are getting repetitive, I'm happy to agree that overall Man U are better and I think we're agreed on the reasons for that, are you still saying it is impossible that we might genuinely have a better player than Man U in any position and that thinking any different is always due to Saints bias ?

[Jimmy_D]

Okay lets try it another way.

 

OUR. BEST. PLAYERS. ARE. NOT. AS. GOOD. AS. THEIR. BEST. PLAYERS.

OUR. WORST. PLAYERS. ARE. NOT. AS. GOOD. AS THEIR. WORST. PLAYERs.

 

Jesus. who'd have thought it could so difficult trying to explain why Manchester UNited are better than us.

 

But that wasn't the original question was it?

 

Truth is, 10 is a horrible sample size. Truth is, Morgan has had VERY good press over this last year, and people probably do rate him above Carrick (Oh, look I can answer my own questions before you get the chance to too).

 

Central Midfield is undoubtedly our strongest position, and currently corresponds to Man Utd's weakest position. Talking to my Man Utd. supporting mates, yes, they would swap their central midfield for ours.

 

No, that doesn't mean I, or they, come even remotely close to rating Saints above Man Utd. All it means is that we currently have a few strong players in a position that Man Utd are weak in that they would probably like to buy if they had the chance.

 

What is it with you? It's like you can't bear to see any sort of positive light ever thrown on Saints.

 

I don't think I've ever seen you just be happy about something Saints related. Each and every time you try and twist it round to be negative.

 

Did people laugh at you in school for supporting us or something?

[Turkish]

But that wasn't the original question was it?

 

Truth is, 10 is a horrible sample size. Truth is, Morgan has had VERY good press over this last year, and people probably do rate him above Carrick (Oh, look I can answer my own questions before you get the chance to too).

 

Central Midfield is undoubtedly our strongest position, and currently corresponds to Man Utd's weakest position. Talking to my Man Utd. supporting mates, yes, they would swap their central midfield for ours.

 

No, that doesn't mean I, or they, come even remotely close to rating Saints above Man Utd. All it means is that we currently have a few strong players in a position that Man Utd are weak in that they would probably like to buy if they had the chance.

 

What is it with you? It's like you can't bear to see any sort of positive light ever thrown on Saints.

 

I don't think I've ever seen you just be happy about something Saints related. Each and every time you try and twist it round to be negative.

 

Did people laugh at you in school for supporting us or something?

 

From a mod your repsonse is emabrassing Jimmy. Like conversations do the thread has moved on from the OP to a wider debate. I think you need to read the entire thread before jumping to conclusions and making accusations fella, there has been some good debate on here about football yet you've turned it into a pop on me, you couldn't help yourself could you. Read the thread before tapping away angrily and accusing people of being negative about Saints. I have not made one single negative or sarcastic comment against Saints on this thread.

 

And By the way i dont see what is so scandalous and offensive to you about saying that the league champions who finsihed 48 points above might have better players than us.

Edited 9 August, 2013 by Turkish

[The Kraken]

Only an idiot would claim Man United are "weak" in central midfield. Dear me. Carrick is a superb player, Phil Jones does a very good job in there when called upon. Cleverley is a better player than Cork IMO, fletcher is superb but made of glass, Kagawa is decent too. If that's a "weak" midfield then blow me down.

[Barry Sanchez]

There was a large reason that Gerrard never went to a major club, despite tge fact any club in the world would have taken him (and yes, Real, Chelsea and Utd have made enquiries) and that was the only time he looked like moving the liverpool public threatened and shamed him into staying, this along with his loyalty.

 

As per his so called tactical awareness, its a bit lazy TBH, when he was younger he was very good at the more regimented side of the game in both Liverpool red or England white. The fact of the matter is he has BEEN liverpool for the last 10 years, never have I seen a player drag a club to victories, cup wins etc like him and certainly not Lampard who at best I would say was a very very able contributer at best.

 

Liverpool use him in the way they do because it is what he brings to the table and TBH its not 100m away from what chelsea do with Frank in the fact that teams were built around them, the only difference being that Frank has never been as dynamic and certainly not as rounded as a CM as Gerrard is/was. Nor do I remember FL ever being touted as the best CM in the world such as SG was only 5 or so years ago.

 

England had some v v able midfielders in their midst recently and in an effort to incorperate them all callously wasted them.

 

Lampard is good but looking at the two how anyone can pick him over Gerrard is rediculous.

 

Are you saying Liverpool are not a major side?

[Turkish]

Only an idiot would claim Man United are "weak" in central midfield. Dear me. Carrick is a superb player, Phil Jones does a very good job in there when called upon. Cleverley is a better player than Cork IMO, fletcher is superb but made of glass, Kagawa is decent too. If that's a "weak" midfield then blow me down.

 

Careful mate, Jimmy D will be on you for being negative about Saints for saying that.

[The Kraken]

Careful mate, Jimmy D will be on you for being negative about Saints for saying that.

That's true, I may have to retract it; I don't want to stamp on anyone's dreams.

[Barry Sanchez]

This thread cracks me up.

[Jimmy_D]

From a mod your repsonse is emabrassing Jimmy. Like conversations do the thread has moved on from the OP to a wider debate. I think you need to read the entire thread before jumping to conclusions and making accusations fella, there has been some good debate on here about football yet you've turned it into a pop on me, you couldn't help yourself could you. Read the thread before tapping away angrily and accusing people of being negative about Saints. I have not made one single negative or sarcastic comment against Saints on this thread.

 

And By the way i dont see what is so scandalous and offensive to you about saying that the league champions who finsihed 48 points above might have better players than us.

 

My response is nothing to do with me being a mod in this case.

 

As for not being negative... You're asserting that one of the best defensive midfielders in Europe couldn't ever reach the heights of a Man Utd player purely on the basis of him playing for us.

 

I'm just genuinely trying to understand how you can constantly be so negative towards the team you support.

[Jimmy_D]

Only an idiot would claim Man United are "weak" in central midfield. Dear me. Carrick is a superb player, Phil Jones does a very good job in there when called upon. Cleverley is a better player than Cork IMO, fletcher is superb but made of glass, Kagawa is decent too. If that's a "weak" midfield then blow me down.

 

I didn't say they were weak, I said it was their weakest area.

 

It's still a strong midfield objectively, but it isn't as strong as ours.

[Turkish]

My response is nothing to do with me being a mod in this case.

 

As for not being negative... You're asserting that one of the best defensive midfielders in Europe couldn't ever reach the heights of a Man Utd player purely on the basis of him playing for us.

 

I'm just genuinely trying to understand how you can constantly be so negative towards the team you support.

 

You're getting personal, telling me people laughed at me at school because i've said something you dont agree with. You're doing exactly what you infract people for and what people are moaning about Jimmy. It's pretty pathetic.

 

Read this thread in its entirty and understand what has been said before wading in with the accusations and insults pal. You clearly haven't as i've never said such i thing and you're making it up,i simply made a quite valid point that most saints fans would say Schniderlin is the better player, most neutrals would say carrick. What's negative about that?

[Turkish]

That's true, I may have to retract it; I don't want to stamp on anyone's dreams.

 

I think it's hilarious that this thread has been good with some decent discussion on here yet the first one to make a personal insult and comment is a mod, not the ones who are supposedly ruining the site.

[Jimmy_D]

You're getting personal, telling me people laughed at me at school because i've said something you dont agree with. You're doing exactly what you infract people for and what people are moaning about Jimmy. It's pretty pathetic.

 

Read this thread in its entirty and understand what has been said before wading in with the accusations and insults pal. You clearly haven't as i've never said such i thing and you're making it up,i simply made a quite valid point that most saints fans would say Schniderlin is the better player, most neutrals would say carrick. What's negative about that?

 

Fair enough, I apologize for that comment.

 

Although it doesn't excuse it, I haven't had a good day.

[The Kraken]

I didn't say they were weak, I said it was their weakest area.

 

Erm, pardon me?

 

All it means is that we currently have a few strong players in a position that Man Utd are weak in

[Colinjb]

Erm, pardon me?

 

Kraken, he's clearly referring to the position itself rather then their entire team.

[Jimmy_D]

Erm, pardon me?

 

That was meant in the same context as what I had just said about it being their weakest area.

 

Reading it back now I see that doesn't come across clearly, to say the least!

[Wes Tender]

I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that one good reason they get a lot of media exposure is that their players are predominantly better than ours.

 

And the other good reason is that they have a big following of plastic fans all over the place, so media coverage is simply a matter of supply and demand.

[The Kraken]

Kraken, he's clearly referring to the position itself rather then their entire team.

 

I'm pretty sure he can answer for himself Colin. But no, it quite clearly doesn't do that, as Jimmy admits himself. His post also further qualified that Man United would like to buy our midfield players, and I can't say with any certainty that they would do. Schneiderlin maybe although I rate Carrick slightly higher. Cork, Cleverley is probably rated higher by all but Saints fans. And Wagamama, well I just don't know, I've not yet seen enough of him at this level to call it.

[The Kraken]

And the other good reason is that they have a big following of plastic fans all over the place, so media coverage is simply a matter of supply and demand.

And the reason they have a big following of plastic fans? Has it got anything to do with the quality of their players being generally higher than that of a team in 14th? Personally I think it might have.

[Jimmy_D]

Wanyama is arguable, but reading other forums, there are a lot of Man Utd fans surprised they didn't get him ahead of us, and would have liked to have seen him in their team.

 

Just have to wait and see on him.

[Colinjb]

I'm pretty sure he can answer for himself Colin. But no, it quite clearly doesn't do that, as Jimmy admits himself. His post also further qualified that Man United would like to buy our midfield players, and I can't say with any certainty that they would do. Schneiderlin maybe although I rate Carrick slightly higher. Cork, Cleverley is probably rated higher by all but Saints fans. And Wagamama, well I just don't know, I've not yet seen enough of him at this level to call it.

 

For me there was no ambiguity whatsoever and of course he can answer for himself. The confrontational tone of this thread really is symptomatic of the problems on here right now.

 

Regarding the position, I've already contributed to the thread earlier.

[The Kraken]

For me there was no ambiguity whatsoever and of course he can answer for himself. The confrontational tone of this thread really is symptomatic of the problems on here right now.

 

Regarding the position, I've already contributed to the thread earlier.

Colin; you got what Jimmy meant, I clearly didn't, questioned it, and Jimmy admitted it wasn't that clear in the first place. I thought that's what forums were for; sharing and challenging other opinions, perhaps even reversing your own opinion if the argument is strong enough? Never mind.

[Wes Tender]

And the reason they have a big following of plastic fans? Has it got anything to do with the quality of their players being generally higher than that of a team in 14th? Personally I think it might have.

 

There are a number of reasons for their large following, but because of their success historically, their support tends to be self-perpetuating to an extent based on factors like parental influence on their children for example. Equally their media exposure helps in that direction too. It's a chicken and egg situation that will only be diminished by a serious decline in their fortunes and the rise of other clubs to usurp their position over a number of years. I suspect that Liverpool are suffering a diminishing level of support from the plastics as a result of their recent failure to get back into the top 2 or three and Man United would have to suffer a similar decline over a number of years for the situation to alter drastically.

Edited 9 August, 2013 by Wes Tender

[Colinjb]

Colin; you got what Jimmy meant, I clearly didn't, questioned it, and Jimmy admitted it wasn't that clear in the first place. I thought that's what forums were for; sharing and challenging other opinions, perhaps even reversing your own opinion if the argument is strong enough? Never mind.

 

Indeed they are.

[Jimmy_D]

I reckon part of the difference in opinion is coming from the different styles of play employed.

 

Our players are probably better suited to a Saints style midfield, and the Man Utd players are more suited to the Man Utd style midfield.

[Killers Knee]

On their day we have a midfield that can compete toe to toe and even better theirs. Not sure our boys can perform as consistently, that is where SAF was genius. On a side note I expect SD to have a big season and outshine AL.

 

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2

[The Kraken]

There are a number of reasons for their large following, but because of their success historically, their support tends to be self-perpetuating to an extent based on factors like parental influence on their children for example. Equally their media exposure helps in that direction too. It's a chicken and egg situation that will only be diminished by a serious decline in their fortunes and the rise of other clubs to usurp their position over a number of years. I suspect that Liverpool are suffering a diminishing level of support from the plastics as a result of their recent failure to get back into the top 2 or three and Man United would have to suffer a similar decline over a number of years for the situation to alter drastically.

This is becoming a bit daft, Wes; but I'm sure even you can agree that Man Utd's media exposure is due in very large part to the fact that they have consistently had (and continue to have) some of the best players in the league, leading to the fact that they've hardly ever finished outside the top 2 (and never outside the top 3) in the 20+ years since football started with the inception of the Premier League. In fact, reading that back, I'm amazed this point is even a discussion.

[saintadjg]

I think the Fergie factor is being grossly overlooked .With the very same squad i don't believe for one sec they are going to be close to being the same force under Moyes.

I cant wait for the UTD express to derail (by there own high standards )

[The Kraken]

I think the Fergie factor is being grossly overlooked .With the very same squad i don't believe for one sec they are going to be close to being the same force under Moyes.

I cant wait for the UTD express to derail (by there own high standards )

As I see it, the best they will do this season is third. Man city have an extremely capable manager and have spent pretty well in strengthening an already very strong squad. IMO they'll duke it out with Chelsea who, again, have a very strong squad. I thought United punched above their weight last season, and if RvP suffers a dip in form or injury then a slip down the table could be on the cards (particularly if Rooney goes or is completely disenchanted).

[saintadjg]

Couldn't agree more personally i think they'll finish 4th ,which by their standards is a total disaster .

[Wes Tender]

This is becoming a bit daft, Wes; but I'm sure even you can agree that Man Utd's media exposure is due in very large part to the fact that they have consistently had (and continue to have) some of the best players in the league, leading to the fact that they've hardly ever finished outside the top 2 (and never outside the top 3) in the 20+ years since football started with the inception of the Premier League. In fact, reading that back, I'm amazed this point is even a discussion.

 

Where did I disagree with you? I merely put forward the position that as well as having the quality of player that ensures that they finish near the top of the league every year, a lot of the media attention they get is because they are a glory club with the attendant demand from those plastic fans to see them play on the box and read about them in the Sun. As I said, it is self-perpetuating.

 

You speak of the success they have had since the inception of the Premier League, but I regret that I am old enough to remember the considerable boost they gained with the death of the Busby Babes in the Munich air disaster and more recently the setback when they were relegated to the second division alongside us under Docherty as two events that helped shape their support in both directions.

[The Kraken]

Couldn't agree more personally i think they'll finish 4th ,which by their standards is a total disaster .

To be honest I don't see them finishing that low; Spurs will in all likelihood lose Bale and that'll be a massive blow for them. And Arsenal have so far entirely missed the boat ensuring that they're as far away from the top 3 as they were at the start of the window. United will still be very good; but they'll have to be exceptional to compete with Man City and Chelsea, and without the Fergie factor, like you, I simply don't see it. But even a dip to 3rd is a significant fall from grace. Moyes just seems like a poor fit, to me.

[The Kraken]

Where did I disagree with you? I merely put forward the position that as well as having the quality of player that ensures that they finish near the top of the league every year, a lot of the media attention they get is because they are a glory club with the attendant demand from those plastic fans to see them play on the box and read about them in the Sun. As I said, it is self-perpetuating.

 

You speak of the success they have had since the inception of the Premier League, but I regret that I am old enough to remember the considerable boost they gained with the death of the Busby Babes in the Munich air disaster and more recently the setback when they were relegated to the second division alongside us under Docherty as two events that helped shape their support in both directions.

Wes, what are you even trying to prove a point about? I never said United having good players (the particular point being that their players were and are predominantly better than ours) was THE reason they got massive media exposure. I said it was ONE reason (and it continues to be a very good one). And there are various others; I think we all know this.

[Smirking_Saint]

Sod it Ill say it, realistically the only player who would be a first teamer for any top team would be Morgan and thats only if he had another consistant season. That and his price is why he is still here IMO. If we arent in European competition and he has another top season he will be gone.

 

On Utds midfield, as a cohesive middle unit it is probably better just but their tactics negate this really. Also only really morgan beats them, Carrick is a better deep lying midfielder than Cork and I cant comment on Wanyama properly yet.

[Smirking_Saint]

Are you saying Liverpool are not a major side?

 

I think even without our personal spats you can see my point regarding Liverpool not being the footballing powerhouse they once were, certainly in the Gerrard years and probably wouldnt have even been that without him.

 

Im not talking stature, Im fully aware (despite my hatred) they are still a massive club.

[slickmick]

You're getting personal, telling me people laughed at me at school because i've said something you dont agree with. You're doing exactly what you infract people for and what people are moaning about Jimmy. It's pretty pathetic.

 

Read this thread in its entirty and understand what has been said before wading in with the accusations and insults pal. You clearly haven't as i've never said such i thing and you're making it up,i simply made a quite valid point that most saints fans would say Schniderlin is the better player, most neutrals would say carrick. What's negative about that?

Most non Saints supporting friends of mine rate Morgan very highly. I will however ask the question next time. In my non-biased view, I would say that Morgan is better. Then again I thought MLT was better than most Man Utd players at the time.

[Wes Tender]

I said it was ONE reason (and it continues to be a very good one). And there are various others; I think we all know this.

 

Yes, and I mentioned some of them. Was I trying to prove a point any more than you were?

 

But I'm quite happy for the debate to return to the OP's contention about whether our central midfield is as good as theirs, as there is little scope in us debating where else we might stand comparison against them.

[Turkish]

Most non Saints supporting friends of mine rate Morgan very highly. I will however ask the question next time. In my non-biased view, I would say that Morgan is better. Then again I thought MLT was better than most Man Utd players at the time.

 

Im not saying he's not a good player, he's an excellent player and arguably along with lambert the best signing we've made for a long time. However i maintain most neutrals would say Carrick is better. This is also not to say he never will be better than him.

[Smirking_Saint]

I think you make fair points, but Lampard has made a significant contribution to Chelsea and the only reason Gerrard's looks more important to Liverpool is because Chelsea also had others making them successful - even in that environment Lampard's contribution was still outstanding. Gerrard in Chelsea's side wouldn't have looked as outstanding - it's open to question whether Lampard could have dragged Liverpool to the success they had in Gerrard's place, but just because someone else is also good doesn't make a good player worse.

 

Im not bad mouthing Lampards achievements by the way and is certainly up there as far as top english midfielders are concerned.

 

Just think of the two of them Gerrard is the better. And he deserved to play with better players than Jay spearing. He won a CL with Traore FFS

[scotty]

Im not bad mouthing Lampards achievements by the way and is certainly up there as far as top english midfielders are concerned.

 

Just think of the two of them Gerrard is the better. And he deserved to play with better players than Jay spearing. He won a CL with Traore FFS

 

Didn't Chelsea try to buy Gerrard once? iirc, he desperately wanted to go there but his family got threats if he left the scousers?

[slickmick]

Im not saying he's not a good player, he's an excellent player and arguably along with lambert the best signing we've made for a long time. However i maintain most neutrals would say Carrick is better. This is also not to say he never will be better than him.

This doesn't prove anything. Most neutrals have been brainwashed with the exposure Man Utd get. But as most Saints fans have had the privilege of seeing Morgan play more than most, then don't you think they would be better judges than the neutral fan ?

[The Kraken]

This doesn't prove anything. Most neutrals have been brainwashed with the exposure Man Utd get. But as most Saints fans have had the privilege of seeing Morgan play more than most, then don't you think they would be better judges than the neutral fan ?

I wouldn't. I'd say most Saints fans (particularly most on here) are more opinionated towards saying their own players are better than they actually are. Also, a bunch of neutrals who support neither Saints nor United have definitely got the most unbiased and unblinkered view of the abilities of both (albeit Carrick may get more TV time, because he is a key player in a better side). I know its unpopular at times to say that our players aren't all utterly amazing, but there we go, I can live with that. Schneiderlin is a very, very good player. Carrick is better IMO.

Edited 9 August, 2013 by The Kraken

[Turkish]

This doesn't prove anything. Most neutrals have been brainwashed with the exposure Man Utd get. But as most Saints fans have had the privilege of seeing Morgan play more than most, then don't you think they would be better judges than the neutral fan ?

 

Okay do if it doesn't prove it then what would? Top flight appearances perhaps? International caps? Honours won? Of is it just in the opinion of saints fans one of our golden boys is far better than someone in their position with a host of honours, international caps and is a key player the reigning champions.

[slickmick]

Okay do if it doesn't prove it then what would? Top flight appearances perhaps? International caps? Honours won? Of is it just in the opinion of saints fans one of our golden boys is far better than someone in their position with a host of honours, international caps and is a key player the reigning champions.

 

Again that proves nothing. It proves Carrick is a good player, playing in a very good team who has won caps for a very average international team. You could use that same argument on Matt Le Tiss or Les Ferdinand. We all know who had the most successful career but we also know who was the best. There is no way of gauging who is better, its down to opinion and not Saints bias.

[supersonic]

I'm sorry but Morgan isn't better than Carrick

 

Morgan is good, very good, but Carrick is better