As it stands, do we have a better midfield than Utd?

[Turkish]

So do you think Lampard as he is now at 34 or whatever he is, is still world class and better than anyone we have?

 

I don't think he's world class anymore it hes still a very, very good player. We dont really have anyone to compare him to He's a different type of player to Morgan, Cork and Wanyama and he's certainly better at the moment than our attacking midfield options.

 

Answer my question, he averaged over a goal every other game last season from midfield you say he doesn't offer enough, what exactly do you want an attacking midfielder to offer?

Edited 8 August, 2013 by Turkish

[Barry the Badger]

So do you think Lampard as he is now at 34 or whatever he is, is still world class and better than anyone we have?

 

If we got Lampard this season he would play whenever he was fit, no question.

[Saint Garrett]

Yep.

 

Fair enough...agree to disagree!

[S-Clarke]

Fair enough...agree to disagree!

 

At least we have a healthy football debate on here for once!

[Turkish]

If we got Lampard this season he would play whenever he was fit, no question.

 

Its hilarious that the 3 best team in England and former champions league winners offered him a new deal and Manchester United were linked with signing him when before his contract was signed, yet Garrett appears to think he wouldn't get in saints team!!!

[Saint Garrett]

I don't think he's world class anymore it hes still a very, very good player. We dont really have anyone to compare him to He's a different type of player to Morgan, Cork and Wanyama and he's certainly better at the moment than our attacking midfield options.

 

Answer my question, he averaged over a goal every other game last season from midfield you say he doesn't offer enough, what exactly do you want an attacking midfielder to offer?

 

I think generally Chelsea carry him in games. I don't see him as a "behind the striker" midfielder, he's not the same as Ramirez, as he's not skilful enough, and not defensive enough to play on the "two". Lets not forget an awful lot of those goals are penalties as well. He wouldn't have anywhere near as impressive goal scoring record from midfield if you took them away.

[Saint Garrett]

Its hilarious that the 3 best team in England and former champions league winners offered him a new deal and Manchester United were linked with signing him when before his contract was signed, yet Garrett appears to think he wouldn't get in saints team!!!

 

Yeah but our CM is better than Utd's....see the OP

[saintadjg]

I think Lampard got a new lease of life after AVB dropped him.Got the kick up the ass he needed and imo upped his game.I wasn't too keen on him prior ,now i think he lives up to his tag.I'd take him over Gerrard

[Turkish]

I think generally Chelsea carry him in games. I don't see him as a "behind the striker" midfielder, he's not the same as Ramirez, as he's not skilful enough, and not defensive enough to play on the "two". Lets not forget an awful lot of those goals are penalties as well. He wouldn't have anywhere near as impressive goal scoring record from midfield if you took them away.

 

So if penalties dont count then we can also take off Lamberts penalties as well then, right. So Lamberts goal scoring record suddenly looks far less impressive doesn't it.

[Saint Garrett]

Would be interested to see how many pens he's scored last few seasons and who he's scored against.

[Smirking_Saint]

I think Lampard got a new lease of life after AVB dropped him.Got the kick up the ass he needed and imo upped his game.I wasn't too keen on him prior ,now i think he lives up to his tag.I'd take him over Gerrard

 

Agree'd up to the last sentance. Gerrard no question for me and always has.

 

Doesnt take anything away from Lamps though, and the way he shoved the 'over the hill' shouts up everyones ass was phenominal.

[Turkish]

Would be interested to see how many pens he's scored last few seasons and who he's scored against.

 

40 penalties in his Chelsea career in 202 goals, Lambert has 31 in 103 in his saints career, so Lambert percentage of pens per goals is higher. We can also discredit MLTS scoring record if pens don't count as he scored 49 pens out of 209 goals, so his record isn't as impressive either.

Edited 8 August, 2013 by Turkish

[Saint Garrett]

Fair enough, feels like more than that.

[saintadjg]

Agree'd up to the last sentance. Gerrard no question for me and always has.

 

Doesnt take anything away from Lamps though, and the way he shoved the 'over the hill' shouts up everyones ass was phenominal.

 

Before he was dropped id have taken Gerrard every time.

[Turkish]

Agree'd up to the last sentance. Gerrard no question for me and always has.

 

Doesnt take anything away from Lamps though, and the way he shoved the 'over the hill' shouts up everyones ass was phenominal.

 

I still maintain we should have built a side around Paul Scholes, the best English midfielder since Gasgoine in his prime.

[Saint Garrett]

Agree Scholes was immense, better than Gerrard and Lampard.

[igsey]

Five of Lampard's PL goals this season were penalties, whereas only three of Rickie's were, so SRL scored 12 from open play to Lamppost's 10. Irrelevant to the topic though.

 

I'd agree with the general consensus that centrally we have a better midfield than Man United, possibly one of the best in the league (Chelsea's is fearsome though).

[melmacian_saint]

Calm down everyone. Season's yet to start.

 

Let's hope we still think the same in two months time.

[Saint Garrett]

Think Man City's edges it for me. Toure and Fernandinho have got everything.

[NickG]

Messi wouldn't be half the player he was if he was playing for Reading. FFS.

 

Often wondered if you put player who is so good in poor premiership team who they would do. Guess we had MLT, but how would Reading plus Messi have done?

 

BTW I was bit tongue in cheek with the single game comparisons but think Morgan's season stands up against those top midfielders

[Turkish]

Often wondered if you put player who is so good in poor premiership team who they would do. Guess we had MLT, but how would Reading plus Messi have done?

 

BTW I was bit tongue in cheek with the single game comparisons but think Morgan's season stands up against those top midfielders

 

Tis goes back to the arguement from a few weeks back about Ramirez with some arguing that he hasn't impressed regularly as the players around him are not at the level he is at, whilst to a certain extent this is true with lesser players not having the vision to pick him out or the intelligence and movement to run onto his through balls it doesn't stop him being able to make simple passes, deliver a dead ball effectively or last more than an hour of a game. It also doesn't seem to effect our players ability to pick out Lamberts, Lallanas or Schniderlins passes so that's where the argument falls down. The fact of the matter is A true class player will always shine, yes they'll be closer marked and won't get the quality of service from better players but they'd still be able to tuck away chances, make telling passes, tackles, runs etc whoever they played for.

[Colinjb]

It's too basic a way of putting it. Central midfield is important but not the full picture. I rate our midfielders but we would need a few better wide players to really make a difference.

[Turkish]

It's too basic a way of putting it. Central midfield is important but not the full picture. I rate our midfielders but we would need a few better wide players to really make a difference.

 

We don't have any natural wide players in the squad and from our activity so far it seems we aren't looking to add any.

[Colinjb]

We don't have any natural wide players in the squad and from our activity so far it seems we aren't looking to add any.

 

I don't think Pochettino wants wingers. Use the forward players to push the full backs and bring the central players into play in a 4-3-3 style. The 3 better do the business.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Not being antagonistic, just you mentioned scholes, and yeah he was unreal. Love this:

 

[Turkish]

I don't think Pochetinno wants wingers. Use the forward players to push the full backs and bring the central players into play in a 4-3-3 style. The 3 better do the business.

 

If that is how he wants to play then that's fine and it'll work as the only players we have that can beat a man wide are our full backs.Its if we persist with 4-2-3-1 that we'll have problems as we Lallana Davis and Ramirez best position in attacking central midfield, Rodriguez is a striker and our only real wide man is Puncheon and even he prefers cutting in.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

We're not a million miles away from Utd in the midfield dept. Sadly we're a long way off having anything that can rival their defence or the firepower they have up front. :-/

[Turkish]

Not being antagonistic, just you mentioned scholes, and yeah he was unreal. Love this:

 

 

Yet England managers shunted him to left midfield so we could persist with 4-4-2.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Yet England managers shunted him to left midfield so we could persist with 4-4-2.

 

Criminal.

[Colinjb]

If that is how he wants to play then that's fine and it'll work as the only players we have that can beat a man wide are our full backs.Its if we persist with 4-2-3-1 that we'll have problems as we Lallana Davis and Ramirez best position in attacking central midfield, Rodriguez is a striker and our only real wide man is Puncheon and even he prefers cutting in.

 

No denying it has shortcomings, yet this seems to be the route we are taking.

 

The fact it worked v Man Utd at Old Trafford (Rooney notwithstanding) and left us utterly exposed v West Brom shows me it's not perfect. Yet we have commited our club to this philosophy by employing Poch. I don't believe he has a plan B. Yet when it does work it's wonderful.

[The9]

Mulumba outclassed Morgan at the Hawthorns last season, he must be better than them both.

 

Mulumbu and Yacob was probably the most consistent pair of central midfielders, and certainly two of the most vital to their respective club, West Brom's form went to pieces during their injuries/AFCoN call up. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to say they were a top 6 pairing. Liverpool slaughtered us up at their place in midfield too, put Cork's comeback somewhat into perspective that day.

[The9]

No denying it has shortcomings, yet this seems to be the route we are taking.

 

The fact it worked v Man Utd at Old Trafford (Rooney notwithstanding) and left us utterly exposed v West Brom shows me it's not perfect. Yet we have commited our club to this philosophy by employing Poch. I don't believe he has a plan B. Yet when it does work it's wonderful.

 

I disagree re: Plan B, what were we doing at Spurs last season if we were committed to 4-2-3-1 and didn't know how to play any other way ? Yeah we got nailed by counters and hoofing at Newcastle and home to West Brom, but the former had a pile of defensive errors and an offside goal, and the latter was just a terrible low tempo performance all round.

 

I wonder actually whether trying to change our style away from 4-2-3-1 was the reason for our relatively poor end of season form. Pochettino knows when the system will work, and boy did it work when it worked, but he's also started picking up on the games where our high pressing system just leaves us open and we need to play a different way - Spurs away (without Schneiderlin, remember) was very nearly a lesson in how to deal with them, but Shaw just showed Bale inside that one time...

[Lord Duckhunter]

I suggest that anyone who thinks we have a better midfield than man utd keep it to themselves when discussing football with neutrals. Cork is an average mid table premiership player (as is Davis) Wanyama hasn't actually played a game yet , Rudi anyone. Which leaves MS. Had a pretty decent season, MAY go on to better things, but Davie M didn't get the job by doing things like replacing Carrick with MS. If Carrick became available he'd linked with your Chelsea's and Arsenals, not to mention Spurs, Everton and others above us in terms of size and pedigree. If our midfield is better than utd's why is nobody seriously in for them. Do saints web posters know more than professional managers and scouts?

[MINIBARCELONASAINT]

Just listening to talksport now, there is an interesting chat with Michael Calvin, Independent on Sunday writer, on scouting.

 

Calvin described James Ward-Prowse as the best young footballer he has ever watched/scouted. Described him as v. similar in ability terms to Frank Lampard, talked about his maturity and vision, and that he expects a big season from his next year.

 

Must say I'm a big fan of JWP from the few games I saw him play last season, so hoping he gets the game time and continues to progress. Our midfield is shaping up to be scarily good.

 

It is rather odd how opinions differ on this player so much. I've crossed paths with the European Scout for Wolves whilst doing my badges, who used to be a coach at Southampton, who says that whilst JWP's attitude and work rate is faultless, he doesn't have the ability to be as good as Bale or Chambo or even Walcott. He believes he'll be an average Premier League midfielder at best. The same guy believes after JWP nothing is coming through our academy of Premier League potential for quite some time.

[The9]

It is rather odd how opinions differ on this player so much. I've crossed paths with the European Scout for Wolves whilst doing my badges, who used to be a coach at Southampton, who says that whilst JWP's attitude and work rate is faultless, he doesn't have the ability to be as good as Bale or Chambo or even Walcott. He believes he'll be an average Premier League midfielder at best. The same guy believes after JWP nothing is coming through our academy of Premier League potential for quite some time.

 

You do have to wonder if the Championship/L1 years will have dried up the allure of our Academy to parents between 2005-2011... if we're recruiting kids aged around 8/9 then the dip would be coming along right about now - but that assumes we don't have the ability to recruit others at higher ages to fill the shortfall. I'd have to back this vaguely half-baked theory up with the likes of Shaw and JWP and the years and ages of their recruitments, and frankly I don't have the inclination at 1:30am.

 

I think it's difficult to make snap judgements on whole academies though - how late did Bale develop ? It only took a year or two from him nearly being released to first team Championship debut. For any kid there's always the possibility something just clicks, or the hormones kick in to develop a kid's body to improve their physical presence hugely.

Edited 9 August, 2013 by The9

[S-Clarke]

It is rather odd how opinions differ on this player so much. I've crossed paths with the European Scout for Wolves whilst doing my badges, who used to be a coach at Southampton, who says that whilst JWP's attitude and work rate is faultless, he doesn't have the ability to be as good as Bale or Chambo or even Walcott. He believes he'll be an average Premier League midfielder at best. The same guy believes after JWP nothing is coming through our academy of Premier League potential for quite some time.

 

It's absolutely impossible to say that. Even more so that he isn't even involved in our setup anymore.

 

Players who look like drifting away at 15, can have an unbelievable year and just kick on beyond recognition. It happened with Bale and will happen again. There's no way anyone can make such a strong statement, as we all know youth players can be very fluid and not look like producing anything, and the next minute...

 

I also rate JWP highly, after August last year I thought he was going to stake a claim - but it never really happened after that. He is an incredibly talented player though, and why anyone would even try to compare him to Bale or Walcott is beyond me. Totally different physical players and skill sets. If you want to compare JWP to anyone then it should be the likes of Wiltshire and co. You only have to watch him for 30mins to see the class oozing from him.

[The9]

It's absolutely impossible to say that. Even more so that he isn't even involved in our setup anymore.

 

Players who look like drifting away at 15, can have an unbelievable year and just kick on beyond recognition. It happened with Bale and will happen again. There's no way anyone can make such a strong statement, as we all know youth players can be very fluid and not look like producing anything, and the next minute...

 

I also rate JWP highly, after August last year I thought he was going to stake a claim - but it never really happened after that. He is an incredibly talented player though, and why anyone would even try to compare him to Bale or Walcott is beyond me. Totally different physical players and skill sets. If you want to compare JWP to anyone then it should be the likes of Wiltshire and co. You only have to watch him for 30mins to see the class oozing from him.

 

Funnily enough I agree with all of that apart from the stuff about JWP's ability. He's unlikely to get any kind of run in the side, and it's difficult to see how he'll improve with that being the case. He's still young though, not many kids able to impose themselves in that kind of company but I'm hopeful, rather than expectant based on what I've seen so far.

[MINIBARCELONASAINT]

It's absolutely impossible to say that. Even more so that he isn't even involved in our setup anymore.

 

Players who look like drifting away at 15, can have an unbelievable year and just kick on beyond recognition. It happened with Bale and will happen again. There's no way anyone can make such a strong statement, as we all know youth players can be very fluid and not look like producing anything, and the next minute...

 

I also rate JWP highly, after August last year I thought he was going to stake a claim - but it never really happened after that. He is an incredibly talented player though, and why anyone would even try to compare him to Bale or Walcott is beyond me. Totally different physical players and skill sets. If you want to compare JWP to anyone then it should be the likes of Wiltshire and co. You only have to watch him for 30mins to see the class oozing from him.

 

I'm, without a doubt, certain the comparison was in overall ability/potential and not playing style in regards to Bale and Walcott. I think you can therefore legitimately make that comparison.

 

I brought the story up because I am fascinated about how opinions on a player that hasn't really had much game time at PL Level can vary so much - from Lampardesque to average PL midfielder (though, having read the entirety of this thread it is apparent some believe there is no difference!). Though, having seen the spectrum of responses re: Lambert's call-up I guess it's not as surprising and the attraction of football will continue to be it's subjective nature.

 

Whilst on opinions, I was coaching out in Germany last week and the coaches I worked with and the kids I coached were all eager to know how "a small club like Southampton" could hold on to Rickie Lambert and wanted to know why he wasn't in the England squad! Then, when we organised a tournament for the kids and let them pick their teams, after Manchester United and City had been taken, the next three teams were AFC Wimbledon, Wolves and Saints! "Why?" I asked. "They have cool kits!" was the reply.

[saintbob40]

Cork and Morgan outplayed the top midfields in the country last year. Looks like MP and NC want to split that up. VW looks too heavy and slow on the ball but let's see. JWP has a lot to learn and needs to find his right position......currently he is not physically developed enough to play in the two. Davis is decent enough away from home in the 3. I am intrigued to see how Morgan will play without Cork next to him covering for him and feeding him possession.

 

To answer the OP- yes to Cork and Morgan last year. This year I think MP will initially persist withVW and MS but I have my doubts.

[Batman]

This is like when league 1 saints would beat England

 

 

Every single other fan away from Southampton would pish themselves in thinking 14th placed saints have a better midfield that the current champions

[Barry Sanchez]

Forum gold this, forum gold.

[Barry Sanchez]

This is like when league 1 saints would beat England

 

 

Every single other fan away from Southampton would pish themselves in thinking 14th placed saints have a better midfield that the current champions

 

Robin I find myself agreeing with you, our fans are the most delusional I have ever come across in my life, this is coming from someone who lives in Liverpool and has to put up up with their ****e, do people never venture out of Shirley, Millbrook or Bitterne? There are an awful lot of football teams and players that are an awful lot better than us.

 

Delusion abounds.

[Turkish]

Fair enough, feels like more than that.

 

So what else do you expect him to offer?

[Turkish]

Mulumbu and Yacob was probably the most consistent pair of central midfielders, and certainly two of the most vital to their respective club, West Brom's form went to pieces during their injuries/AFCoN call up. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to say they were a top 6 pairing. Liverpool slaughtered us up at their place in midfield too, put Cork's comeback somewhat into perspective that day.

 

So if our midfield is better than Man Uniteds and WBAs and Liverpools in better than ours then where does that leave Man Us midfield? The reigning champions must have a midfield almost as bad as Chelsea's!

[Turkish]

This is like when league 1 saints would beat England

 

 

Every single other fan away from Southampton would pish themselves in thinking 14th placed saints have a better midfield that the current champions

 

We weren't safe until the penultimate weekend of the season yet our midfield is better than two of the top 3 according to some on here.

[Sour Mash]

It's absolutely impossible to say that. Even more so that he isn't even involved in our setup anymore.

 

Players who look like drifting away at 15, can have an unbelievable year and just kick on beyond recognition. It happened with Bale and will happen again. There's no way anyone can make such a strong statement, as we all know youth players can be very fluid and not look like producing anything, and the next minute...

 

I also rate JWP highly, after August last year I thought he was going to stake a claim - but it never really happened after that. He is an incredibly talented player though, and why anyone would even try to compare him to Bale or Walcott is beyond me. Totally different physical players and skill sets. If you want to compare JWP to anyone then it should be the likes of Wiltshire and co. You only have to watch him for 30mins to see the class oozing from him.

Why is it impossible for him to say that? It's just his informed opinion. Churning out good quality Prem players from an academy is very, very difficult.

[Wes Tender]

Robin I find myself agreeing with you, our fans are the most delusional I have ever come across in my life, this is coming from someone who lives in Liverpool and has to put up up with their ****e, do people never venture out of Shirley, Millbrook or Bitterne? There are an awful lot of football teams and players that are an awful lot better than us.

 

Delusion abounds.

 

But as usual, you base your arguments on sweeping generalities, instead of focussing on the title of the thread and debating that. It isn't about other teams and other players; it's about our central midfield three against United's.

 

But I understand your opinion that you believe our fans to be delusional; some even believe that we are doomed because we haven't made better signings in their opinion than some other middling sized clubs, even though the transfer window still has some time to run.

 

For what it's worth, I personally believe that it is indeed possible to argue with some conviction that our three might well be better than those three mentioned for United. It isn't about comparisons between the individuals, it's about the three together. In that respect, the sum of the total for me is definitely greater than the parts.

 

In response to Lord D's question as to why if they're so good, other clubs aren't after them, to a certain extent Schneiderlin and Cork as a pairing were very effective last season, but probably slipped under the radar because they weren't playing for a glory team. I agree with him that Wanyama is still an unknown quantity in the Premiership, but if he fulfils the role that our scouts selected him for and becomes the player they think he is, then other teams will sit up and take notice of this quiet revolution that is happening here and identify our midfield as being crucial to our success in scoring goals on the one hand and instrumental in protecting our defence on the other.

[Turkish]

But as usual, you base your arguments on sweeping generalities, instead of focussing on the title of the thread and debating that. It isn't about other teams and other players; it's about our central midfield three against United's.

 

But I understand your opinion that you believe our fans to be delusional; some even believe that we are doomed because we haven't made better signings in their opinion than some other middling sized clubs, even though the transfer window still has some time to run.

 

For what it's worth, I personally believe that it is indeed possible to argue with some conviction that our three might well be better than those three mentioned for United. It isn't about comparisons between the individuals, it's about the three together. In that respect, the sum of the total for me is definitely greater than the parts.

 

In response to Lord D's question as to why if they're so good, other clubs aren't after them, to a certain extent Schneiderlin and Cork as a pairing were very effective last season, but probably slipped under the radar because they weren't playing for a glory team. I agree with him that Wanyama is still an unknown quantity in the Premiership, but if he fulfils the role that our scouts selected him for and becomes the player they think he is, then other teams will sit up and take notice of this quiet revolution that is happening here and identify our midfield as being crucial to our success in scoring goals on the one hand and instrumental in protecting our defence on the other.

 

Schniderlin was playing in the most watched league in the world and was statistically reported widely as one of the top performing midfield players in Europe. Yes I'm sure no one outside of SO postcodes has ever heard of him.

[yorkiesaint]

Cork>Cleverly is clearly crazy. I guess the jury's out on wanyama for now. Carrick has nothing to prove, unlike MS. Cork is intelligent but too slow on the ball and doesn't have the technique of the other players. I'm sure that's why Poch wanted a replacement. Saints they fizz the ball around, it gets to Cork and the extra time he takes on the ball allows the opposition to reorganise.

[Barry Sanchez]

But as usual, you base your arguments on sweeping generalities, instead of focussing on the title of the thread and debating that. It isn't about other teams and other players; it's about our central midfield three against United's.

 

But I understand your opinion that you believe our fans to be delusional; some even believe that we are doomed because we haven't made better signings in their opinion than some other middling sized clubs, even though the transfer window still has some time to run.

 

For what it's worth, I personally believe that it is indeed possible to argue with some conviction that our three might well be better than those three mentioned for United. It isn't about comparisons between the individuals, it's about the three together. In that respect, the sum of the total for me is definitely greater than the parts.

 

In response to Lord D's question as to why if they're so good, other clubs aren't after them, to a certain extent Schneiderlin and Cork as a pairing were very effective last season, but probably slipped under the radar because they weren't playing for a glory team. I agree with him that Wanyama is still an unknown quantity in the Premiership, but if he fulfils the role that our scouts selected him for and becomes the player they think he is, then other teams will sit up and take notice of this quiet revolution that is happening here and identify our midfield as being crucial to our success in scoring goals on the one hand and instrumental in protecting our defence on the other.

 

 

 

Wes, do you think Manchester United's midfield is weaker than our's? It as simple as that.