Stephen Fry on the 'Anti-Gay Olympics'

[Minty]

Brilliant piece this - not surprising perhaps from Stephen Fry, but on a very important subject IMO.

 

http://www.stephenfry.com/2013/08/07/an-open-letter-to-david-cameron-and-the-ioc/single-page/

 

An Open Letter to David Cameron and the IOC

By Stephen Fry

 

August 7th, 2013

 

Dear Prime Minister, M Rogge, Lord Coe and Members of the International Olympic Committee,

 

I write in the earnest hope that all those with a love of sport and the Olympic spirit will consider the stain on the Five Rings that occurred when the 1936 Berlin Olympics proceeded under the exultant aegis of a tyrant who had passed into law, two years earlier, an act which singled out for special persecution a minority whose only crime was the accident of their birth. In his case he banned Jews from academic tenure or public office, he made sure that the police turned a blind eye to any beatings, thefts or humiliations afflicted on them, he burned and banned books written by them. He claimed they “polluted” the purity and tradition of what it was to be German, that they were a threat to the state, to the children and the future of the Reich. He blamed them simultaneously for the mutually exclusive crimes of Communism and for the controlling of international capital and banks. He blamed them for ruining the culture with their liberalism and difference. The Olympic movement at that time paid precisely no attention to this evil and proceeded with the notorious Berlin Olympiad, which provided a stage for a gleeful Führer and only increased his status at home and abroad. It gave him confidence. All historians are agreed on that. What he did with that confidence we all know.

 

Putin is eerily repeating this insane crime, only this time against LGBT Russians. Beatings, murders and humiliations are ignored by the police. Any defence or sane discussion of homosexuality is against the law. Any statement, for example, that Tchaikovsky was gay and that his art and life reflects this sexuality and are an inspiration to other gay artists would be punishable by imprisonment. It is simply not enough to say that gay Olympians may or may not be safe in their village. The IOC absolutely must take a firm stance on behalf of the shared humanity it is supposed to represent against the barbaric, fascist law that Putin has pushed through the Duma. Let us not forget that Olympic events used not only to be athletic, they used to include cultural competitions. Let us realise that in fact, sport is cultural. It does not exist in a bubble outside society or politics. The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.

 

An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential. Stage them elsewhere in Utah, Lillyhammer, anywhere you like. At all costs Putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the civilised world.

 

He is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews. He cannot be allowed to get away with it. I know whereof I speak. I have visited Russia, stood up to the political deputy who introduced the first of these laws, in his city of St Petersburg. I looked into the face of the man and, on camera, tried to reason with him, counter him, make him understand what he was doing. All I saw reflected back at me was what Hannah Arendt called, so memorably, “the banality of evil.” A stupid man, but like so many tyrants, one with an instinct of how to exploit a disaffected people by finding scapegoats. Putin may not be quite as oafish and stupid as Deputy Milanov but his instincts are the same. He may claim that the “values” of Russia are not the “values” of the West, but this is absolutely in opposition to Peter the Great’s philosophy, and against the hopes of millions of Russians, those not in the grip of that toxic mix of shaven headed thuggery and bigoted religion, those who are agonised by the rolling back of democracy and the formation of a new autocracy in the motherland that has suffered so much (and whose music, literature and drama, incidentally I love so passionately).

 

I am gay. I am a Jew. My mother lost over a dozen of her family to Hitler’s anti-Semitism. Every time in Russia (and it is constantly) a gay teenager is forced into suicide, a lesbian “correctively” raped, gay men and women beaten to death by neo-Nazi thugs while the Russian police stand idly by, the world is diminished and I for one, weep anew at seeing history repeat itself.

 

“All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing,” so wrote Edmund Burke. Are you, the men and women of the IOC going to be those “good” who allow evil to triumph?

 

The Summer Olympics of 2012 were one of the most glorious moments of my life and the life of my country. For there to be a Russian Winter Olympics would stain the movement forever and wipe away any of that glory. The Five Rings would finally be forever smeared, besmirched and ruined in the eyes of the civilised world.

 

I am begging you to resist the pressures of pragmatism, of money, of the oily cowardice of diplomats and to stand up resolutely and proudly for humanity the world over, as your movement is pledged to do. Wave your Olympic flag with pride as we gay men and women wave our Rainbow flag with pride. Be brave enough to live up to the oaths and protocols of your movement, which I remind you of verbatim below.

 

Rule 4 Cooperate with the competent public or private organisations and authorities in the endeavour to place sport at the service of humanity and thereby to promote peace

 

Rule 6: Act against any form of discrimination affecting the Olympic Movement

 

Rule 15 Encourage and support initiatives blending sport with culture and education

 

I especially appeal to you, Prime Minister, a man for whom i have the utmost respect. As the leader of a party I have for almost all of my life opposed and instinctively disliked, you showed a determined, passionate and clearly honest commitment to LGBT rights and helped push gay marriage through both houses of our parliament in the teeth of vehement opposition from so many of your own side. For that I will always admire you, whatever other differences may lie between us. In the end I believe you know when a thing is wrong or right. Please act on that instinct now.

 

Yours in desperate hope for humanity

 

Stephen Fry

[Bearsy]

The Five Rings would finally be forever smeared, besmirched and ruined in the eyes of the civilised world.

 

I've got some jokes. Mods is this cool, or is this not cool? Pls let me know, I'm choking down these good jokes cos I'm one fraction off ban, but is real difficult for me!

[Minty]

I'm sure a similar thread on TMS would love to hear them Bearsy... At the risk of being a boring bastard, I would actually be interested in peoples genuine thoughts on this issue because I think it's a pretty significant one.

[Smirking_Saint]

I've got some jokes. Mods is this cool, or is this not cool? Pls let me know, I'm choking down these good jokes cos I'm one fraction off ban, but is real difficult for me!

 

Im glad I wasnt the only one who had to bite my tongue here bear, so for goodness sake, bite your tongue and stop poking around those rings.

 

Just think, what woukd Daley do ?

[Bearsy]

I'm sure a similar thread on TMS would love to hear them Bearsy... At the risk of being a boring bastard, I would actually be interested in peoples genuine thoughts on this issue because I think it's a pretty significant one.

 

This is fair enough Minty, I will be respectful bear. I haven't had a genuine thought since 1997, but if i get one i will tell you bout it.

[Hatch]

nothing will happen, just like nothing happened for the Beijing Olympics over Chinas human rights record.

[Smirking_Saint]

nothing will happen, just like nothing happened for the Beijing Olympics over Chinas human rights record.

 

Exactly, as much as something should happen in reality. We wont pick a fight of any sort against countries with the clout of Russia or China.

 

We will wait until the winter olympics in Uganda to make our stand

[jjsaint]

I'd like to see a ban on the 2018 World Cup (USSR) and the 2022 World Cup (Qatar) as well, for this as well as other reasons.

[Wurzel]

Much as I agree with his sentiments, there's probably hardly a country in the world where one or more other countries couldn't find some reason to object to.

 

In any case I always thought that the Olympics were awarded to a city not a country, and for the duration of the games the sites the games take place in are considered a separate entity and outside the jurisdiction of where they take place. Provided those sites are operated to Olympic principles and LGBT participants and spectators are treated equally and have free access at the games themselves I don't see what goes on in the rest of the country is relevant.

[suewhistle]

I've got some jokes. Mods is this cool, or is this not cool? Pls let me know, I'm choking down these good jokes cos I'm one fraction off ban, but is real difficult for me!

 

Not this one Bearsy, please, not this one.

[Hatch]

anyway, isn't there Olympic rules against transgender participants anyway

[The9]

I think Mr Fry makes his point very well, and draws some interesting parallels. I particularly liked the Edmund Burke quote

 

“All that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing,”

 

but there's a mischievous side of me that wants to point out that equally, claiming "someone else said it" is a very good way of doing something and staying out of trouble.

 

I'm also unsurprised that Fry has not bothered to even try and argue the same criteria of equality and fairness applies to hosting the 2018 World Cup in Russia, and that's a massive indictment of FIFA's cynical role in promoting sport compared to the IOC.

[The9]

anyway, isn't there Olympic rules against transgender participants anyway

 

There's a paralympics for that. Says ->

[Hatch]

and is there a winter paralympics? now you mention it. I don't ever recall seeing one.

[Barry Sanchez]

The Olympics is a privilege and should noit be given to Nations/Cities with poor human rights records, it in a bizzarre way validiates their backward thinking. The Russians have an awful record of nearly every basic human right violation going, and thats the law not the citizens!

[Saint in Paradise]

I lost interest and stopped reading as soon as he mentioned a certain German and Jews.

 

Yes the Holocaust happened, Yes millions suffered but I am fed up to the back teeth with

having it rammed down my throat all the effing time.It was so long ago it's long past the

time when it is relevant anymore.

[Barry Sanchez]

I lost interest and stopped reading as soon as he mentioned a certain German and Jews.

 

Yes the Holocaust happened, Yes millions suffered but I am fed up to the back teeth with

having it rammed down my throat all the effing time.It was so long ago it's long past the

time when it is relevant anymore.

 

 

I think you need to think about your post again.

[Minty]

I think the correlation he draws is quite significant and valid actually.

[Ludwig]

I lost interest and stopped reading as soon as he mentioned a certain German and Jews.

 

Yes the Holocaust happened, Yes millions suffered but I am fed up to the back teeth with

having it rammed down my throat all the effing time.It was so long ago it's long past the

time when it is relevant anymore.

 

Is this for real? Are you f*cling nuts?

[Junction 9]

I lost interest and stopped reading as soon as he mentioned a certain German and Jews.

 

Yes the Holocaust happened, Yes millions suffered but I am fed up to the back teeth with

having it rammed down my throat all the effing time.It was so long ago it's long past the

time when it is relevant anymore.

 

A quite astonishing post.

[Colinjb]

I lost interest and stopped reading as soon as he mentioned a certain German and Jews.

 

Yes the Holocaust happened, Yes millions suffered but I am fed up to the back teeth with

having it rammed down my throat all the effing time.It was so long ago it's long past the

time when it is relevant anymore.

 

Had you continued reading you would have seen that the comparison is utterly valid.

[Smirking_Saint]

I lost interest and stopped reading as soon as he mentioned a certain German and Jews.

 

Yes the Holocaust happened, Yes millions suffered but I am fed up to the back teeth with

having it rammed down my throat all the effing time.It was so long ago it's long past the

time when it is relevant anymore.

 

If this is your way of thinking I think Im going to stop reading any posts by SIP

 

Quite astounding really

[norwaysaint]

I lost interest and stopped reading as soon as he mentioned a certain German and Jews.

 

Yes the Holocaust happened, Yes millions suffered but I am fed up to the back teeth with

having it rammed down my throat all the effing time.It was so long ago it's long past the

time when it is relevant anymore.

 

 

I reckon that exceeds some pretty stiff competition to become the most moronic post I've seen on here in a long, long time.

[Saint in Paradise]

If this is your way of thinking I think Im going to stop reading any posts by SIP

 

Quite astounding really

 

:lol::lol: Thanks, I haven't laughed so much in ages and my we are all a bunch

of precious flowers aren't we :lol: Well when I say "we" I do of course mean most of you.

[Guided Missile]

Brilliant piece this - not surprising perhaps from Stephen Fry, but on a very important subject IMO.

 

http://www.stephenfry.com/2013/08/07/an-open-letter-to-david-cameron-and-the-ioc/single-page/

Spare us the self-righteous sermonizing on behalf of our country please Stephen and remember that after the 1948 Olympics that we hosted, it took nearly 20 years for England and Wales to decriminalise homosexuality. Scotland didn't decriminalise it until 1980 and Northern Ireland in 1982.

[buctootim]

Whats Russia done anyway?

[Guided Missile]

Whats Russia done anyway?

Upset a left-wing, comedic ex-fraudster so much that he now professes utmost respect for a right wing British politician. He also seems to have forgotten how this country jailed Oscar Wilde at the same time that Russia granted Tchaikovsky a large government pension.

 

Stephen Fry is really starting to get on my nerves, every time I see the smart arse, wallowing in demonstrating his ability to memorise the contents of the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Undisputed king of the pub-quiz but an odious load-mouthed luvvie IMHO...

[dinger]

Spare us the self-righteous sermonizing on behalf of our country please Stephen and remember that after the 1948 Olympics that we hosted, it took nearly 20 years for England and Wales to decriminalise homosexuality. Scotland didn't decriminalise it until 1980 and Northern Ireland in 1982.

 

Wow, talk about missing the point. You could equally argue that we had no right to complain about Hitler because England expelled the Jews in 1290. The difference is that we decriminalised homosexuality and have been moving towards a more tolerant society, whereas Russia has just criminalised homosexuality and has started persecuting gay people with tacit government approval. There's nothing self-righteous about standing up for the rights of others.

[pap]

Wow, talk about missing the point. You could equally argue that we had no right to complain about Hitler because England expelled the Jews in 1290. The difference is that we decriminalised homosexuality and have been moving towards a more tolerant society, whereas Russia has just criminalised homosexuality and has started persecuting gay people with tacit government approval. There's nothing self-righteous about standing up for the rights of others.

 

Is that strictly true? I thought the law related to promoting a homosexual lifestyle when in the company of kids.

[dinger]

Is that strictly true? I thought the law related to promoting a homosexual lifestyle when in the company of kids.

 

You're quite right, it is a law about the promotion of homosexuality. However the outworking of it in Russia is that gay people are being arrested, attacked in the street, barred from office, etc. It is effectually the same, at least IMO.

 

My point is that to talk about Oscar Wilde and Tchaikovsky is only to highlight the contrasting direction of travel in two societies. We're now in a situation where Wilde would be rightly lauded for his talents while Tchaikovsky would run the risk of being arrested and/or killed for his sexuality. Fry hasn't forgetten this, as GM suggests. That's the whole bloody point! Talking about things people shouldn't have done in the past is only valuable in that it prevents us from doing them again.

[pap]

You're quite right, it is a law about the promotion of homosexuality. However the outworking of it in Russia is that gay people are being arrested, attacked in the street, barred from office, etc. It is effectually the same, at least IMO.

 

My point is that to talk about Oscar Wilde and Tchaikovsky is only to highlight the contrasting direction of travel in two societies. We're now in a situation where Wilde would be rightly lauded for his talents while Tchaikovsky would run the risk of being arrested and/or killed for his sexuality. Fry hasn't forgetten this, as GM suggests. That's the whole bloody point! Talking about things people shouldn't have done in the past is only valuable in that it prevents us from doing them again.

 

The legal distinction is quite different, although I'm not sure we can be particularly condemning. There are many in our own country who would love to see similar laws enacted, although not as many as in Russia. You've also got to consider the resurgence of the Eastern Orthodox church and the strong feelings that come from the general religious heterosexual community. I'm not condoning Russia's actions, but I'd suggest that they have a popular mandate to enact these laws. Our mistake, which we make all too often, is prematurely judging people by our own standards.

 

This'll sort itself out over the long term, but it'll be a process, much like ours, that is driven from within - not because of the condemnation from other nations.

[Barry Sanchez]

Russia is donkey's years behind the rest of the west in its thinking, its 50 years behind for the vast majority of the population, well in attitude it appears. Western Russia if it had its way would steamroll its own in the East as they see them as backward and behind, strange people who know nothing other than blood and revolution.

[Barry Sanchez]

The legal distinction is quite different, although I'm not sure we can be particularly condemning. There are many in our own country who would love to see similar laws enacted, although not as many as in Russia. You've also got to consider the resurgence of the Eastern Orthodox church and the strong feelings that come from the general religious heterosexual community. I'm not condoning Russia's actions, but I'd suggest that they have a popular mandate to enact these laws. Our mistake, which we make all too often, is prematurely judging people by our own standards.

 

This'll sort itself out over the long term, but it'll be a process, much like ours, that is driven from within - not because of the condemnation from other nations.

 

We judge them by our own standards when people claim asylum, arrogant self righteous Liberal's?

[pap]

We judge them by our own standards when people claim asylum, arrogant self righteous Liberal's?

 

Yeah, but isn't that fair enough?

 

A Russian homosexual could come here and conduct his or her private affairs without fear of persecution. An English homosexual going to Russia knows that promoting such a lifestyle to kids is a criminal offence.

 

You've got dubai phil and all the other ex-pats in the Arab world having to observe and respect the traditions of their host countries. When in Rome, etc?

[pap]

Russia is donkey's years behind the rest of the west in its thinking, its 50 years behind for the vast majority of the population, well in attitude it appears. Western Russia if it had its way would steamroll its own in the East as they see them as backward and behind, strange people who know nothing other than blood and revolution.

 

Russia is catching up. I watch a load of Russia Today, an alternative source of propaganda from the usual. It's obvious stuff; pretty much every story is attacking Western values and/or policy. They're actively trying to push the Russian worldview as an alternative to Western dominated media.

 

The US hawks were wrong to count Russia out in the superpower stakes. Whatever the rumblings about China, Russia is still in a strong position to dominate.

[Barry Sanchez]

Yeah, but isn't that fair enough?

 

A Russian homosexual could come here and conduct his or her private affairs without fear of persecution. An English homosexual going to Russia knows that promoting such a lifestyle to kids is a criminal offence.

 

You've got dubai phil and all the other ex-pats in the Arab world having to observe and respect the traditions of their host countries. When in Rome, etc?

 

 

 

By that token we should not be trying to stop beheading or stoning with our trading partners in Saudi?

Saudi's also dish out the booze when convenient and sell it in Hotel's, I have friends in Moscow and Saudi, if we compared values I pretty sure we would be be higher than both, in Russia a few years ago a far right group beheaded an Eastern worker in a forest and this is a weekly do in the middle of Saudi.

 

I'm sure the Liberal elite will find some reason for this stoneage behaviour though, bad parenting etc etc

[pap]

By that token we should not be trying to stop beheading or stoning with our trading partners in Saudi?

Saudi's also dish out the booze when convenient and sell it in Hotel's, I have friends in Moscow and Saudi, if we compared values I pretty sure we would be be higher than both, in Russia a few years ago a far right group beheaded an Eastern worker in a forest and this is a weekly do in the middle of Saudi.

 

I'm sure the Liberal elite will find some reason for this stoneage behaviour though, bad parenting etc etc

 

We've never tried before, but you bring up a good example. Saudi Arabia is a relatively oppressive place to live compared to Western norms. Less oppressive regimes have been the target for regime change, but Saudi are our mates, so we say nothing at the cost of being labelled hypocrites.

 

Moral relativism is nothing new, and doesn't have to be a million miles away either. The Presbyterian community in Northern Ireland used to protest at shops that opened on a Sunday.

 

Transplant these issues into our own society and of course, it's wholly unacceptable. I wonder if we have the moral right to condemn countries for their social policies when we're nowhere near perfect ourselves.

[Barry Sanchez]

We've never tried before, but you bring up a good example. Saudi Arabia is a relatively oppressive place to live compared to Western norms. Less oppressive regimes have been the target for regime change, but Saudi are our mates, so we say nothing at the cost of being labelled hypocrites.

 

Moral relativism is nothing new, and doesn't have to be a million miles away either. The Presbyterian community in Northern Ireland used to protest at shops that opened on a Sunday.

 

Transplant these issues into our own society and of course, it's wholly unacceptable. I wonder if we have the moral right to condemn countries for their social policies when we're nowhere near perfect ourselves.

 

But pap our Liberal elite have allowed these to be transpanted into this Nation, honour killings, caste systems, arranged marriages, failure in intergrate etc etc for fear of being called racist, the majority live in fear of being slurred by the sandalled self righteous few, if we are so bad why do so may want to come here?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Good on Mr. Fry.

 

Unsurprising that it is such a compelling piece, the mans verbal dexterity is a joy to behold.

 

I'm 100% in support with him. Oppression and discrimination of this sort today is unacceptable, no matter where it is.

 

Yes pap, we are not perfect -but in fairness we are a damn sight better than most places around the world when it comes to acceptance. Just because there are things we need to improve at home, doesn't mean we shouldn't look to improve the lives of others, and look to protect our brothers and sisters around the world when they are in danger.

[pap]

But pap our Liberal elite have allowed these to be transpanted into this Nation, honour killings, caste systems, arranged marriages, failure in intergrate etc etc for fear of being called racist, the majority live in fear of being slurred by the sandalled self righteous few, if we are so bad why do so may want to come here?

 

Like many in our country, I am appalled by the concept of honour killings, arranged marriage and caste systems. I'd also agree that a failure to integrate has been a key facilitator in these things happening in the first place. Closed communities are the very kinds of places where such things can happen under the radar. I knew a couple of girls at school that had their lives almost wrecked by their parents, and in both cases, they were effectively disowned for wanting to join Western society. I'm pleased to say that the pair of them are now married, happy and with kids. Incidentally, they both married white British blokes, which suggests to me that integration over the long term isn't a problem.

 

You are correct though; all of those things are problems, and I agree with you - we need to be better at looking it in the eye. At the same time, we also need to recognise the stuff the Islamic world has done right, or the values that they bring that are worth adopting. Perhaps the biggest immigrant influence in my life is the imperative to look after your whole family and respect your elders. Incidentally, those are values that used to be widely espoused here too.

[Barry Sanchez]

Like many in our country, I am appalled by the concept of honour killings, arranged marriage and caste systems. I'd also agree that a failure to integrate has been a key facilitator in these things happening in the first place. Closed communities are the very kinds of places where such things can happen under the radar. I knew a couple of girls at school that had their lives almost wrecked by their parents, and in both cases, they were effectively disowned for wanting to join Western society. I'm pleased to say that the pair of them are now married, happy and with kids. Incidentally, they both married white British blokes, which suggests to me that integration over the long term isn't a problem.

 

You are correct though; all of those things are problems, and I agree with you - we need to be better at looking it in the eye. At the same time, we also need to recognise the stuff the Islamic world has done right, or the values that they bring that are worth adopting. Perhaps the biggest immigrant influence in my life is the imperative to look after your whole family and respect your elders. Incidentally, those are values that used to be widely espoused here too.

 

Stange this pap as you called me a racist 6 months ago for expressing this view, whats changed with you?

[Guided Missile]

Wow, talk about missing the point. You could equally argue that we had no right to complain about Hitler because England expelled the Jews in 1290.

I can't recall anyone in this country doing anything about Hitler apart from appeasing him when he was persecuting minorities - apart from the great Winston Churchill. It was the invasion of Poland that finally started us off and that was nothing to do with our opinion of right wing policies of Germany in the 30's. Anyway, my point is that someone like Stephen Fry has no right lecturing Russian society on their attitude towards gays, given this countries appalling recent treatment of homosexuals.

[pap]

Stange this pap as you called me a racist 6 months ago for expressing this view, whats changed with you?

 

Yeah, go find that and link it please.

 

My views on immigration have remained pretty consistent.

[Barry Sanchez]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23599502

 

They are very lucky here indeed.

[Barry Sanchez]

Yeah, go find that and link it please.

 

My views on immigration have remained pretty consistent.

 

They may have but you have called me racist on numerous occasions, I'm not going to scroll through 100 of pages of your self righteous Liberal drivel mate.

[pap]

They may have but you have called me racist on numerous occasions, I'm not going to scroll through 100 of pages of your self righteous Liberal drivel mate.

 

Then it didn't happen, and your input here is just another double helping of BS.

[Viking Warrior]

Interesting letter i just thought he was a very clever man with a sense of humour

 

An interesting letter but is cameron in a position to do anything? No , There are other civil right abuses in russia , Maybe Fry should have reflected on them as well

and not specifically the gay issues . That is appalling but I beleive there are far greater abuses going on there than the ones he has focussed on.

[Barry Sanchez]

Then it didn't happen, and your input here is just another double helping of BS.

 

So I have to prove I live in Liverpool not you but I have to prove a post exists not you?

 

Double helping of self righteous hypocrisy skip.

[Barry Sanchez]

Pap snookered, no doubt no apology as usual, you stay classy.

[Minty]

Are you two going to ruin another thread?

 

As for Fry, I don't agree at all with the criticism that he has no right to comment, nor that he should be focusing on more important issues. All issue are important, but we can't deal with them all at the same time - ANY attempt to highlight ANY injustice is a good attempt IMO... if key figures in history had had the same outlook about their struggles, and not acted because 'it's just one small part of a much bigger issue' then we wouldn't have evolved to where we are today.