Zero hour contracts

[Grey Crab]

So then don't take the job. Or take the job until you get some experience on your CV and then move on to a better job. Or stay at home and continue to watch Jeremy Kyle all day and have an even larger gap on your CV.

 

Don't moan about someone making an offer. If you don't like the offer don't take it.

 

Stop being a c**t.

[Big Bad Bob]

I understand that and its an amazing return, I know someone who works for them so I shall ask exactly what the scheme is and the conditions are, the Sports Direct scheme seems brilliant if you earn the average or just under wage, what about people on zero hour contracts though?

 

As they all seem to be casual or part-time staff I doubt that they'd have the readies or be invited to a company share scheme anyway!

[Whitey Grandad]

Stop being a c**t.

 

To be fair, I think that's what Tokyo-Saint is saying.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Stop being a c**t.

 

I'd give you a job crabs.

[Viking Warrior]

As tokyo said

 

The employer makes the offer. You consider the offer, you accept the offer , Hey presto you have a job. if any of the three elements are not agreed then then you do not have a job simples. Basics of Contract law

[Tokyo-Saint]

As tokyo said

 

The employer makes the offer. You consider the offer, you accept the offer , Hey presto you have a job. if any of the three elements are not agreed then then you do not have a job simples. Basics of Contract law

 

Stop being a ****

[Barry Sanchez]

As tokyo said

 

The employer makes the offer. You consider the offer, you accept the offer , Hey presto you have a job. if any of the three elements are not agreed then then you do not have a job simples. Basics of Contract law

 

 

Exploitation starts where the prospective employee has no choice in the matter , what do you class as a liveable wage for a single person not living with their parents? Do you think that can be achieved from zero hour contracts? For many reasons there are people without skills or the required skills to earn good money, good money is not the key, its a liveable wage.

[Ludwig]

Some people gave shown their true colours on here. What a horrible society some of you wish to develop.

[Tokyo-Saint]

I think if there is no choice Barry, then yes it is incredibly unfair, we should all be up in arms and buy our oversize mugs and discount Slazenger wear from somewhere else. However, I have not seen anything to suggest that there is not a choice. Are people being forced off job seekers to take 0 hours contracts (serious question)?

[Barry Sanchez]

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/undercover-boss/4od

 

I watched this last night and this guy was genuinely shocked at how appalling his company were at pay/hr and staff involvement in the company, day contracting and lw pay actually was the root cause of poor business performance for his business.

[Barry Sanchez]

I think if there is no choice Barry, then yes it is incredibly unfair, we should all be up in arms and buy our oversize mugs and discount Slazenger wear from somewhere else. However, I have not seen anything to suggest that there is not a choice. Are people being forced off job seekers to take 0 hours contracts (serious question)?

 

I could find that out but if work paid then they should be, work should always pay more than sitting on your arse, the issue is if someone wants to work and is on a zero hour contract how can they save and become independent and in turn spend money and contribute into the economy?

[Barry Sanchez]

Some people gave shown their true colours on here. What a horrible society some of you wish to develop.

 

I agree, I get hammered for being everything on here but I am shocked at some of the responses here, I am alright jack attitudes, ****ing shameful.

[Tokyo-Saint]

When I was 16 or 17 I had a job a burger king in town. They used to ask people to clock off in quiet times (like the gap between the lunch rush and the dinner rush), that was scummy. They got me to do it once, I quit after just a couple of months. It is shit, it does give you shit staff, high staff turnover, poor customer service and probably a load more other problems. However, it is not new and has been around in shit forever, it is not a new thing in anyway.

 

These companies are scum but if you don't like them, don't take their jobs and don't give them custom.

[Barry Sanchez]

When I was 16 or 17 I had a job a burger king in town. They used to ask people to clock off in quiet times (like the gap between the lunch rush and the dinner rush), that was scummy. They got me to do it once, I quit after just a couple of months. It is shit, it does give you shit staff, high staff turnover, poor customer service and probably a load more other problems. However, it is not new and has been around in shit forever, it is not a new thing in anyway.

 

These companies are scum but if you don't like them, don't take their jobs and don't give them custom.

 

 

I try not to if I can, no one has answered the question of the unskilled worker (there are millions in the UK) who has no option or choices, how does that make them feel? Is it productive long term? You get what you pay for and we in this Country value things in money and property, its a bit **** really.

[Tokyo-Saint]

I didn't work on a 0 hours contract in burger king cause I had loads of choices Barry. I was 16 and less skilled that big Jos but I took the shitty job for a bit of money, some experience and something other than 'paper round' on my CV. These jobs are around as a last/first chance saloon. You do them cause it is better for your long term future, not with that shit company but as you gain experience and move up the ladder.

 

It is bottom of the barrel/first run of the ladder but it is a job offer and taking it or not is your choice. Stay there 6 months and either hang on to get the profit share or take your experience and move on to a better job in a better company. I see what you are saying, the bottom run of the ladder should come be a little better with better terms & benefits. Can you see my position, that if you include those better terms there might not be so many positions/opportunities available at the bottom run of the jobs ladder?

[Barry Sanchez]

Good terms and conditions should be a right not a benefit thats where we differ and it would appear many on here also seem to think its a benefit, its a basic right.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Even if it means less jobs as it would make taking on extra employees more of a gamble.

[Barry Sanchez]

Even if it means less jobs as it would make taking on extra employees more of a gamble.

 

Of course, good quality workforce who are happy and stable and prepared to give to a company as opposed to a mass uninterested uninspired and unengaged workforce?

The crap business model is doing ok in this current climate (exploitation) but its short term and detrimental to the Nation as a whole, big business blackmailing the Government as they state they are large employers should be told in no uncertain terms that habe to improve pay, terms and conditions and engagement of staff for the future of their companies, we need to heavily invest in manufacturing and building not the service industry anyway,

[Tokyo-Saint]

I agree to some extent with the 2nd point Baz but think that the decision on if it is a good business idea should lie with the business no the government. The decision of taking a 0 hours job offer should lie with the potential employee and they should not be forced into it by the jobcentre.

 

How far left so you go B? Do you like Bob Crowe and his ideas? Just how good should pay and conditions be before they become unfair to the employer?

Edited 1 August, 2013 by Tokyo-Saint

[Dig Dig]

I didn't work on a 0 hours contract in burger king cause I had loads of choices Barry. I was 16 and less skilled that big Jos but I took the shitty job for a bit of money, some experience and something other than 'paper round' on my CV. These jobs are around as a last/first chance saloon. You do them cause it is better for your long term future, not with that shit company but as you gain experience and move up the ladder.

 

It is bottom of the barrel/first run of the ladder but it is a job offer and taking it or not is your choice. Stay there 6 months and either hang on to get the profit share or take your experience and move on to a better job in a better company. I see what you are saying, the bottom run of the ladder should come be a little better with better terms & benefits. Can you see my position, that if you include those better terms there might not be so many positions/opportunities available at the bottom run of the jobs ladder?

 

 

Jobs like working at Sports Direct etc are there for a certain market......kids basically and are not there to provide people with careers or provide a sustainable living. These type of jobs offer pocket money to people which typically have small outgoings given where they are in life. Targeting this market is fine but from an employers perspective, offering fixed term contracts with the normal associated benefits would be unsustainable when you consider the high turnover, sickness and general unreliability which this particular market offers. Of the 20,000 staff on zero hour contracts, the large majority will be kids, happy with their couple of hundred quid a month until they are ready to move on.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Exactly dig dog. Once again you come along to save the day. Charlie doesn't know how lucky he is to have you as his carer.

[Minty]

It is of course entirely Sports Directs choice, but I would personally question the wisdom of basing my companies success on such a workforce. Frankly it doesn't matter what my companies do, I would want the majority of the workforce to be engaged with the company, to feel valued and fairly rewarded, and my brand will gain the benefit of those staff also being my ambassadors.

[Dig Dig]

It is of course entirely Sports Directs choice, but I would personally question the wisdom of basing my companies success on such a workforce. Frankly it doesn't matter what my companies do, I would want the majority of the workforce to be engaged with the company, to feel valued and fairly rewarded, and my brand will gain the benefit of those staff also being my ambassadors.

 

 

This is true for a lot of brands but when you're all about selling sports socks for 20p to chavs, creating staff affinity to the brand is difficult.

 

I care about what I do now and am well looked after by my company. When I was 16 and working at TK Maxx there wasn't a lot anyone could do to make me care about selling off season goods, especially when customers were just thieving and taking poo's in the changing rooms.

[Dig Dig]

Exactly dig dog. Once again you come along to save the day. Charlie doesn't know how lucky he is to have you as his carer.

 

I've made excellent progress with him, he has even managed not to tweet Nixon for the last few weeks. Very proud.

[Barry Sanchez]

I agree to some extent with the 2nd point Baz but think that the decision on if it is a good business idea should lie with the business no the government. The decision of taking a 0 hours job offer should lie with the potential employee and they should not be forced into it by the jobcentre.

 

How far left so you go B? Do you like Bob Crowe and his ideas? Just how good should pay and conditions be before they become unfair to the employer?

 

Yes I like Bob Crow and his ideas very much, out of Europe (pap could never quite grasp you dont have to be a raving right winger to want out of Europe amongst others) for one, sceptical slightly on trident but there could be a compromise.

[Barry Sanchez]

Jobs like working at Sports Direct etc are there for a certain market......kids basically and are not there to provide people with careers or provide a sustainable living. These type of jobs offer pocket money to people which typically have small outgoings given where they are in life. Targeting this market is fine but from an employers perspective, offering fixed term contracts with the normal associated benefits would be unsustainable when you consider the high turnover, sickness and general unreliability which this particular market offers. Of the 20,000 staff on zero hour contracts, the large majority will be kids, happy with their couple of hundred quid a month until they are ready to move on.

 

 

Offer good terms and conditions and there wont be a high turnover. It could become a career as opposed to a job.

[Saint-Reece]

I work at Sports Direct and I can tell you the zero hours contract can be useful one week then ridiculous the next, although all staff are told once they join that their work performance will reflect in the number of hours they get given, so can't have too many complaints really!

[Grey Crab]

Some people gave shown their true colours on here. What a horrible society some of you wish to develop.

 

I agree, I get hammered for being everything on here but I am shocked at some of the responses here, I am alright jack attitudes, ****ing shameful.

 

Yep. A lot of nasty, selfish c**ts on this thread.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Yep. A lot of nasty, selfish c**ts on this thread.

 

Can you make a top 10 hate list please gay crabs?

[solentstars]

Yep. A lot of nasty, selfish c**ts on this thread.

true next they will want to bring the poorhouse back..what a progressive lot they are going back to pre-war ideas.

[Tokyo-Saint]

I work at Sports Direct and I can tell you the zero hours contract can be useful one week then ridiculous the next, although all staff are told once they join that their work performance will reflect in the number of hours they get given, so can't have too many complaints really!

 

You can if you don't work there apparently. It appears you can be furious on someone else's behalf.

[buctootim]

You can if you don't work there apparently. It appears you can be furious on someone else's behalf.

 

Yeah you can, or at least should be. Not caring about exploitation of those who have no other options because you aren't weak and do have other options isnt something to be trumpeted.

[Viking Warrior]

sorry Tokyo for being Stop being a ****

 

I will let you and the barrack room lawyer fight it out across the barracades as you both are experts in employment law.

 

but to help you and barry understand the principles the following might assist

 

Legislation has an important impact on terms and conditions of employment; this is because legislation implies certain minimum requirements into the employment relationship in addition to what is agreed between the parties themselves. The fundamental starting point when considering the legal relationship between employer and employee is always the contract itself, however the relevant legislation must always be considered as well.

 

The main piece of legislation which governs many terms and conditions of employment is the Employment Rights Act 1996.

 

A wide range of other legislation which has an impact on what can be incorporated into the terms and conditions of employment includes:

 

Equality Act 2010 (especially the equal pay provisions)

National Minimum Wage Act 1998

Pensions Schemes Act 1993

Working Time Regulations 1998 (SI 1998/1833)

Employment Act 2002

Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 2004 (SI 2004/3426

[Barry Sanchez]

You can if you don't work there apparently. It appears you can be furious on someone else's behalf.

 

Thats a ****ing disgrace, work harder so you can work harder! Can you imagine that in other sectors?

[Barry Sanchez]

Yeah you can, or at least should be. Not caring about exploitation of those who have no other options because you aren't weak and do have other options isnt something to be trumpeted.

 

Apparently it should by some of the arsehole comments on here, I would imagine most on here are fortunate, I know I am but it could just as easily be taken away (I have seen it on a number of occasions through divorce, drink, stress and mental health issues) from me for a number of reasons unbeknown to me.

 

What I find ironic is certain posters portray themselves as people of leftist views when simply they are capitalists/tories with shame attached so similar in many ways to a Liberal, a tory with a conscience.

They have absolutely no idea you can be a socialist and yet still be anti European as it affects the workers of this Country, they seem in their naive ways its racist, they do make me chcukle.

[Whitey Grandad]

Apparently it should by some of the arsehole comments on here, I would imagine most on here are fortunate, I know I am but it could just as easily be taken away (I have seen it on a number of occasions through divorce, drink, stress and mental health issues) from me for a number of reasons unbeknown to me.

 

What I find ironic is certain posters portray themselves as people of leftist views when simply they are capitalists/tories with shame attached so similar in many ways to a Liberal, a tory with a conscience.

They have absolutely no idea you can be a socialist and yet still be anti European as it affects the workers of this Country, they seem in their naive ways its racist, they do make me chcukle.

 

There's no need to get shirty just because others see things differently.

[Dig Dig]

Yeah you can, or at least should be. Not caring about exploitation of those who have no other options because you aren't weak and do have other options isnt something to be trumpeted.

 

What's worst, appreciating why some employers use flexible staffing models or assuming that all people that are working there are being exploited and are weak?

[Tokyo-Saint]

Yeah you can, or at least should be. Not caring about exploitation of those who have no other options because you aren't weak and do have other options isnt something to be trumpeted.

 

These aren't miners Tim and I'm not dune. Even fake dune isn't really dune. Dune would need say he likes Bob Crowe, not in this life of the next. Dig dog hit the nail on the head when he said this was casual crappy work for people looking for causual crappy work. Can't employers target their work force anymore? Cause they do, as much as they target their customers.

 

B&Q recruited loads of staff close to or have retired people a few years back. The work force they got were older, slower but in general polite and helpful and had a vast knowledge of DIY and the like. It seems like a generalisation of that age group but often generalisations can be true.

 

Sports direct appear to be doing the same. The want a work force of young casual workers, in the most part students who are looking for a few extra quid to spend at the weekend or on a holiday. As Reece says, it often suits him. I bet having the flexibility to say "I don't want to work for a couple of weeks as I have an exam coming up" or whatever can come in handy at times. People don't seem to be able to see that at times. I can't help but think of the Peter Kay sketch where the bingo hall manager is telling the student that if they work hard and keep their head down in a couple of years they could be calling out the numbers. The student was like, "I'm doing an advanced economics, I don't want to be a full time bingo caller."

 

Not all jobs are for full time life employees looking for a career.

[Barry Sanchez]

There's no need to get shirty just because others see things differently.

 

I am not, I am merely stating that its quite funny people want to be seen as Wolfie Smith and yet are little Eddies running around.

[Barry Sanchez]

These aren't miners Tim and I'm not dune. Even fake dune isn't really dune. Dune would need say he likes Bob Crowe, not in this life of the next. Dig dog hit the nail on the head when he said this was casual crappy work for people looking for causual crappy work. Can't employers target their work force anymore? Cause they do, as much as they target their customers.

 

B&Q recruited loads of staff close to or have retired people a few years back. The work force they got were older, slower but in general polite and helpful and had a vast knowledge of DIY and the like. It seems like a generalisation of that age group but often generalisations can be true.

 

Sports direct appear to be doing the same. The want a work force of young casual workers, in the most part students who are looking for a few extra quid to spend at the weekend or on a holiday. As Reece says, it often suits him. I bet having the flexibility to say "I don't want to work for a couple of weeks as I have an exam coming up" or whatever can come in handy at times. People don't seem to be able to see that at times. I can't help but think of the Peter Kay sketch where the bingo hall manager is telling the student that if they work hard and keep their head down in a couple of years they could be calling out the numbers. The student was like, "I'm doing an advanced economics, I don't want to be a full time bingo caller."

 

Not all jobs are for full time life employees looking for a career.

 

So if you work casual you are never going to earn £20,000 and be eligible for the share scheme, great scheme for harmony of the workforce that, why not pro rata?

[Tokyo-Saint]

****ing hell Baz are you arguing just for the sake of it now?

 

It appears that the strategy is to have a small core of staff that may well be full time and may look to have a future in the company. I guess they have a management training program and these in the most part are experienced workers. These employees are well rewarded for their loyalty and seem to get a decent profit share.

 

Supporting these workers is a larger casual staff, made up of students an you younger people looking for some extra cash. It does not appear to be the business strategy of the devil.

[Barry Sanchez]

****ing hell Baz are you arguing just for the sake of it now?

 

It appears that the strategy is to have a small core of staff that may well be full time and may look to have a future in the company. I guess they have a management training program and these in the most part are experienced workers. These employees are well rewarded for their loyalty and seem to get a decent profit share.

 

Supporting these workers is a larger casual staff, made up of students an you younger people looking for some extra cash. It does not appear to be the business strategy of the devil.

 

Give a good wage and you would not need to do schemes like this, carrot and stick is outdated, treat someone with respect and decency and you will get it back.

[buctootim]

These aren't miners Tim and I'm not dune. Even fake dune isn't really dune. Dune would need say he likes Bob Crowe, not in this life of the next. Dig dog hit the nail on the head when he said this was casual crappy work for people looking for causual crappy work. Can't employers target their work force anymore? Cause they do, as much as they target their customers.

 

B&Q recruited loads of staff close to or have retired people a few years back. The work force they got were older, slower but in general polite and helpful and had a vast knowledge of DIY and the like. It seems like a generalisation of that age group but often generalisations can be true.

 

Sports direct appear to be doing the same. The want a work force of young casual workers, in the most part students who are looking for a few extra quid to spend at the weekend or on a holiday. As Reece says, it often suits him. I bet having the flexibility to say "I don't want to work for a couple of weeks as I have an exam coming up" or whatever can come in handy at times. People don't seem to be able to see that at times. I can't help but think of the Peter Kay sketch where the bingo hall manager is telling the student that if they work hard and keep their head down in a couple of years they could be calling out the numbers. The student was like, "I'm doing an advanced economics, I don't want to be a full time bingo caller."

 

Not all jobs are for full time life employees looking for a career.

 

Apples and pears. Flexibility in the workforce is important in enabling employers to respond to demand and workloads. Its always existed - whether through use of casual labour from an agency, the use of overtime, bank staff ala Mrs Duckhunter or flexible hours (with constant pay) as used in most of the car industry.

 

Of course "Not all jobs are for full time life employees looking for a career". After leaving school and before / during university I did loads of temporary or flexible part-time work. It suited me and it suited the employers who supplemented their permanent staff with additional capacity as required. That is wholly different to the effective casualisation of an entire workforce.

 

What Sports Direct is doing is effectively introducing 'fire at will' by the back door. It is putting entire control of an employees income / future in the sole hands of the store manager as a way of bypassing any and all employee protection legislation. So you get dont paid or get sacked (sorry not sacked, simply 'have no hours scheduled') for whatever reason he / she decides - from refusing to sleep with him to having a child in hospital. Its the 1930s all over again and its nasty.

[Barry Sanchez]

Apples and pears. Flexibility in the workforce is important in enabling employers to respond to demand and workloads. Its always existed - whether through use of casual labour from an agency, the use of overtime, bank staff ala Mrs Duckhunter or flexible hours (with constant pay) as used in most of the car industry.

 

Of course "Not all jobs are for full time life employees looking for a career". After leaving school and before / during university I did loads of temporary or flexible part-time work. It suited me and it suited the employers who supplemented their permanent staff with additional capacity as required. That is wholly different to the effective casualisation of an entire workforce.

 

What Sports Direct is doing is effectively introducing 'fire at will' by the back door. It is putting entire control of an employees income / future in the sole hands of the store manager as a way of bypassing any and all employee protection legislation. So you get dont paid or get sacked (sorry not sacked, simply 'have no hours scheduled') for whatever reason he / she decides - from refusing to sleep with him to having a child in hospital. Its the 1930s all over again and its nasty.

 

 

Did you see their paltry pension contributions? The capitalists think any job is a good thing, thats not and has never been true, the uncertainty this system would create for a 30/40 year having to do this job would be immense, how much do sports direct pay the employee an hour for this flexibility?

[Batman]

Did you see their paltry pension contributions? The capitalists think any job is a good thing, thats not and has never been true, the uncertainty this system would create for a 30/40 year having to do this job would be immense, how much do sports direct pay the employee an hour for this flexibility?

 

Top trolling

[Barry Sanchez]

Top trolling

 

Haven't you got a cat to save from up a tree or something?

[buctootim]

Did you see their paltry pension contributions? The capitalists think any job is a good thing, thats not and has never been true, the uncertainty this system would create for a 30/40 year having to do this job would be immense, how much do sports direct pay the employee an hour for this flexibility?

 

I find it bizarre that this whole argument is being rehashed again given the weight of evidence that low wages and insufficient pension contributions lead to ever higher benefits and welfare claims and hence higher taxation. Lots of retailers treat their staff well and genuinely try to avoid far east sweatshops. But if you allow one company to screw everybody to artificially keep costs down and profits up, the rest of the sector have to follow suit.

 

The 'screw em' posters don't even have the "if we don't do this we won't be competitive and jobs will go overseas" argument to fall back on. Its retail ffs. Whats everybody going to do, go shop in Mexico to save £1 because Sporto Directo staff live in a hovel and their shoes are made by eight year olds?

Edited 1 August, 2013 by buctootim

[Ludwig]

Stop being a c**t.

 

Sound advice that doesn't seem to have been listened to

 

true next they will want to bring the poorhouse back..what a progressive lot they are going back to pre-war ideas.

 

Exactly

 

You can if you don't work there apparently. It appears you can be furious on someone else's behalf.

 

And with that comment your mask has well and truly slipped. Selfishness is the rule for you, isn't it? Is empathy a foreign concept to you? You really cannot see why someone should care about what happens to someone else. You're more than happy to see a race to the bottom because it doesnt affect you. Have you even considered that others may not be in the same position as you? You may have more money, education and choices than others but there's no need, to go back to Grey Crabs point, to be complete c*nt.

 

****ing hell Baz are you arguing just for the sake of it now?

 

Yes, Baz, how dare you not just accept that Tokyo is right? Please stop giving your point of view and just accept what he's saying as the correct way of doing things.

 

Tokyo, my advice to you is to stick to The Muppet Show - it's where you're best suited. Oh, and probably best to wait for Bearsy to post so you can at least be part of a comedy duo where one half of it is actually funny.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Some good points well made Tim. Barry was just arguing like Bob Crowe. I would never condone forcing people on to a 0 hours contact or having a full work force of it but can see why you would a a proportion of your work force on it and why it would be a good idea for both parties. At the very least not pure evil.

[Barry Sanchez]

Some good points well made Tim. Barry was just arguing like Bob Crowe. I would never condone forcing people on to a 0 hours contact or having a full work force of it but can see why you would a a proportion of your work force on it and why it would be a good idea for both parties. At the very least not pure evil.

 

I was debating what I believe so dont patronise me.

 

And its Crow not Crowe, if you are going to patronise do it correctly at the very leaat.