Roger Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 Rumours of interest from chelsea,arsenal and spurs around Xmas. Supposed to be the next shaw. Anyone know how he's progressing and how close he is to first team. I don't think fox is good enough and wondering whether they think any new signing will block his progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 Our lack of interest in any new full backs could be explained by the academy. I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 It would be hard to find a left back better than Fox that is willing to play second fiddle to an 18 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 He was supposed to go on the pre-season tour but had to pull out, so I guess that gives us an idea of how highly he's rated by the manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 Why did he have to pull out (kind sir)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 He was supposed to go on the pre-season tour but had to pull out, so I guess that gives us an idea of how highly he's rated by the manager. Thanks for pointing this out, I thought he simply wasn't selected. Interesting - haven't seen much of him but as with all our lads if the coaches think they're up to I'd like to see them given a game. No doubt that Fox is our second choice left back for now though. And on another note, how great is it that we as a club can be talking about 'the next Shaw' when Shaw is an 18 year old? Great or dangerous, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 FWIW I watched Matt Targett play for the U21's v Man Utd last January and thought he was average However have seen him pre season v Sholing and Eastleigh and he seems bigger and more assured He played CB v Eastleigh and didn't look out of place. Sturdy lad with pace and a sweet left foot Possibly a better defender than Luke Shaw at the same age but less attack minded There was another v young looking left back who looked decent v Eastleigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 He was supposed to go on the pre-season tour but had to pull out, so I guess that gives us an idea of how highly he's rated by the manager. Don't think he was selected for the tour or had to withdraw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottery st mary Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 FWIW I watched Matt Targett play for the U21's v Man Utd last January and thought he was average However have seen him pre season v Sholing and Eastleigh and he seems bigger and more assured He played CB v Eastleigh and didn't look out of place. Sturdy lad with pace and a sweet left foot Possibly a better defender than Luke Shaw at the same age but less attack minded There was another v young looking left back who looked decent v Eastleigh Fraser Colmer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysaint17 Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 A friend has refereed a lot with the academy and said he didnt rate Targett at all and was nowhere near Luke Shaw. Not sure how true that is, clearly he must have something or they wouldnt pursue with him, but has stood out in the games I've seen him play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 FWIW I watched Matt Targett play for the U21's v Man Utd last January and thought he was average However have seen him pre season v Sholing and Eastleigh and he seems bigger and more assured He played CB v Eastleigh and didn't look out of place. Sturdy lad with pace and a sweet left foot Possibly a better defender than Luke Shaw at the same age but less attack minded There was another v young looking left back who looked decent v Eastleigh Umm! There's only 2 months between them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 Fraser Colmer? Yes. First time I'd seem him. Played well considering he had De Ridder in front of him for quite a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 Targetts's ok but not a PL player imo, he reminds me of Jake Thomson. Colmer looks ok, interesting to see how he goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 It would be hard to find a left back better than Fox that is willing to play second fiddle to an 18 year old. One word 'rubbish' Almost anyone would be an improvement on Fox and it would not be difficult to find anyone to come and compete for a place at Saints. After all Most positions are covered and most by players who have been bought at some stage and all are better than Fox. So let's not hear this very false inaccurate rubbish any more. Why we haven't 'covered' Shaw with a reasonable back up is a mystery unless we feel that our youth will come through quickly. Anyway it is not 'backup' these days it's to share the role because you have to rotate and so it's not as though a new guy would be permanently on the bench.... Get a life, there are loads of players who would jump at the chance to replacing Fox...... Much better players than Fox too! My God Mark Dennis would do better even now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentry Posted 27 July, 2013 Share Posted 27 July, 2013 Umm! There's only 2 months between them! ha, exactly, you wait till two months till, he is gonna be amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Don't think he was selected for the tour or had to withdraw. It was on the OS website/twitter etc. shortly before they went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieDog Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Well, that's a completely unbiased viewpoint...lol... Fox is nowhere near as bad as you make out. He's played for Celtic and last season played for Scotland. OK that may not be the most glowing of recommendations, but to have as reserve a player with that level of experience and recognition is pretty good. Unless of course you are saying you are a better judge of player than Gordon Strachan? One word 'rubbish' Almost anyone would be an improvement on Fox and it would not be difficult to find anyone to come and compete for a place at Saints. After all Most positions are covered and most by players who have been bought at some stage and all are better than Fox. So let's not hear this very false inaccurate rubbish any more. Why we haven't 'covered' Shaw with a reasonable back up is a mystery unless we feel that our youth will come through quickly. Anyway it is not 'backup' these days it's to share the role because you have to rotate and so it's not as though a new guy would be permanently on the bench.... Get a life, there are loads of players who would jump at the chance to replacing Fox...... Much better players than Fox too! My God Mark Dennis would do better even now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 It would be hard to find a left back better than Fox that is willing to play second fiddle to an 18 year old. We could sign a full back who is better than either Shaw or Clyne, Clyne provides cover for both wings so not a problem either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Well, that's a completely unbiased viewpoint...lol... Fox is nowhere near as bad as you make out. He's played for Celtic and last season played for Scotland. OK that may not be the most glowing of recommendations, but to have as reserve a player with that level of experience and recognition is pretty good. Unless of course you are saying you are a better judge of player than Gordon Strachan? Honestly he's not up to Prem standard and has proved it regularly. Strachan has to pick from players eligible for Scotland, he can't just spend £10m on making someone Scottish. Who are the left back alternatives for Scotland ? I have no idea, but I bet they're Championship standard like most of their team. The way we play exposes the defence, and Fox in particular, to counterattacks and balls into the space behind him - he's looked vaguely decent when he's not asked to play so far up the pitch and just to defend in a back four, but that's not how we play and he can't do it. As far as Targett goes, he's not been in the squad and he isn't on tour, so he's not close - Turnbull and Chambers are clearly ahead of him. Jack Stephens must be getting a bit worried now, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 It was on the OS website/twitter etc. shortly before they went away. Don't think it was to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Don't think it was to be honest. It wasnt. I think someone on here mentioned he would be involved, but he isnt quite ready yet and we have two LBs anyhow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Shaw is fantastic, Fox is mediocre and makes too many defensive errors, Targett is highly rated but now needs to deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony F Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Honestly he's not up to Prem standard and has proved it regularly. Strachan has to pick from players eligible for Scotland, he can't just spend £10m on making someone Scottish. Who are the left back alternatives for Scotland ? I have no idea, but I bet they're Championship standard like most of their team. The way we play exposes the defence, and Fox in particular, to counterattacks and balls into the space behind him - he's looked vaguely decent when he's not asked to play so far up the pitch and just to defend in a back four, but that's not how we play and he can't do it. Maybe - just maybe - our manager has spotted Fox's weaknesses and has been working on them in pre season. Maybe - just maybe - Fox will have benefited from MP's coaching - he was a defender himself after all. Maybe - just maybe - Fox may be a better player this season. Or is that too much optimism for one post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hugh Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Maybe - just maybe - our manager has spotted Fox's weaknesses and has been working on them in pre season. Maybe - just maybe - Fox will have benefited from MP's coaching - he was a defender himself after all. Maybe - just maybe - Fox may be a better player this season. Or is that too much optimism for one post? Yes and it doesn't fit with the 'Fox is rubbish' rule. Get a grip please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Well, that's a completely unbiased viewpoint...lol... Fox is nowhere near as bad as you make out. He's played for Celtic and last season played for Scotland. OK that may not be the most glowing of recommendations, but to have as reserve a player with that level of experience and recognition is pretty good. Unless of course you are saying you are a better judge of player than Gordon Strachan? Gordon Strachan did not select Fox in his 29 man squad for the international against England next month. I think that probably shows that Gordon Strachan knows what he is doing. In fact has Strachan actually ever selected Fox, I believe Fox last played for Scotland against Wales last year, whereas WGS took over in 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Maybe - just maybe - our manager has spotted Fox's weaknesses and has been working on them in pre season. Maybe - just maybe - Fox will have benefited from MP's coaching - he was a defender himself after all. Maybe - just maybe - Fox may be a better player this season. Or is that too much optimism for one post? Yes, too much optimism by far. You can't teach an old dog fox (he is 27) new tricks. MP was a CB, Fox is allegedly a LB. But I think you are probably right in one aspect that our manager has spotted Fox's weaknesses. If he hasn't then he has no right to be a manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 (edited) The Fox hate on here is pathetic, he was signed in the championship and was a very competent championship left back and a key part of the way we played under Adkins in the championship, as the amount of assists Fox and Richardson got that season will testify. He isn't a a premier league player, anyone can see this, but like Sharp, Richardson, Hammond and Davis did the job he was brought in to do, the only difference is the the others were replaced by better players so are viewed as heroes who did their job in the championship and were part of a great team. Whereas we failed to bring in a left back last summer, so Fox is viewed as some useless out of depth clown who should never play for us again. Edited 28 July, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Gordon Strachan did not select Fox in his 29 man squad for the international against England next month. I think that probably shows that Gordon Strachan knows what he is doing. In fact has Strachan actually ever selected Fox, I believe Fox last played for Scotland against Wales last year, whereas WGS took over in 2013. Strachan has selected Fox for his squad in June of this year, Fox pulled out injured. Not too sure what has changed between early June and now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 The Fox hate on here is pathetic, he was signed in the championship and was a very competent championship left back and a key part of the way we played under Adkins in the championship, as the amount of assists Fox and Richardson got that season will testify. He isn't a a premier league player, anyone can see this, but like Sharp, Richardson, Hammond and Davis did the job he was brought in to do, the only difference is the the others were replaced by better players so are viewed as heroes who did their job in the championship and were part of a great team. Whereas we failed to bring in a left back last summer, so Fox is viewed as some useless out of depth clown who should never play for us again. Exactly this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffaSaint Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 The Fox hate on here is pathetic, he was signed in the championship and was a very competent championship left back and a key part of the way we played under Adkins in the championship, as the amount of assists Fox and Richardson got that season will testify. He isn't a a premier league player, anyone can see this, but like Sharp, Richardson, Hammond and Davis did the job he was brought in to do, the only difference is the the others were replaced by better players so are viewed as heroes who did their job in the championship and were part of a great team. Whereas we failed to bring in a left back last summer, so Fox is viewed as some useless out of depth clown who should never play for us again. Exactly, fox is a champ level defender and did really well for us in our promotion year, cut him some slack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 The Fox hate on here is pathetic, he was signed in the championship and was a very competent championship left back and a key part of the way we played under Adkins in the championship, as the amount of assists Fox and Richardson got that season will testify. He isn't a a premier league player, anyone can see this, but like Sharp, Richardson, Hammond and Davis did the job he was brought in to do, the only difference is the the others were replaced by better players so are viewed as heroes who did their job in the championship and were part of a great team. Whereas we failed to bring in a left back last summer, so Fox is viewed as some useless out of depth clown who should never play for us again. Does make you wonder whether Buttner would have done a good job for us, or would he have simply hindered Luke Shaw's progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysaint17 Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Spot on from Turkish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 We'll likely get to see him in the Cups this year, which is good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 (edited) Does make you wonder whether Buttner would have done a good job for us, or would he have simply hindered Luke Shaw's progress? I don't buy all this stuff about buying players in blocking the progress of youngsters. Not too many people complained about us bringing in Lovern, why didnt people claim his signing was blocking Jack Stephens progress? Its a a squad game these days and you need good players as well as young players and its also a dangerous game to play to expect youngsters to do too much to quickly. If the youngester is good enough then they will get their chance and if they are better than the incumbent then they stay in the side. they will benefit more from being eased into the first team rather than thrown in at the deep end and sink or swim.youre talking about 17 and 18 year olds here whose body's aren't developed yet and are still learning the game, if they were early 20s then its a different story, in reality how many 17 and 18 year olds play most of their games and are first choice in their position at other premier league clubs? Edited 28 July, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 I don't buy all this stuff about buying players in blocking the progress of youngsters. Not too many people complained about us bringing in Lovern, why didnt people claim his signing was blocking Jack Stephens progress? Its a a squad game these days and you need good players as well as young players and its also a dangerous game to play to expect youngsters to do too much to quickly. If the youngester is good enough then they will get their chance and if they are better than the incumbent then they stay in the side. they will benefit more from being eased into the first team rather than thrown in at the deep end and sink or swim.youre talking about 17 and 18 year olds here whose body's aren't developed yet and are still learning the game, if they were early 20s then its a different story, in reality how many 17 and 18 year olds play most of their games and are first choice in their position at other premier league clubs? Very few. Shaw's physical maturity reminds me of a young Wayne Rooney. As you say some are not physically able to cope with football at that kind of age and it's rare when you find one that can. Shaw has benefited from his regular first team action, yet he has had nervous games and made mistakes (Stoke away, Staying on the back post and not reacting for Wigan's second) but he has been given chance to carry on and learn from it immediately rather then being dropped for a back up/player in competition. Had that happened and he had been dropped I do believe that could have hampered his development. Thankfully in a way this is entirely academic as a discussion as he is thriving... the replacement LB we needed was in our ranks and if our staff believe we have another (Targett) then I would trust them to bring him in when he is ready, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Very few. Shaw's physical maturity reminds me of a young Wayne Rooney. As you say some are not physically able to cope with football at that kind of age and it's rare when you find one that can. Shaw has benefited from his regular first team action, yet he has had nervous games and made mistakes (Stoke away, Staying on the back post and not reacting for Wigan's second) but he has been given chance to carry on and learn from it immediately rather then being dropped for a back up/player in competition. Had that happened and he had been dropped I do believe that could have hampered his development. Thankfully in a way this is entirely academic as a discussion as he is thriving... the replacement LB we needed was in our ranks and if our staff believe we have another (Targett) then I would trust them to bring him in when he is ready, not before. Whilst what you say is true, the fact of the matter is we entered last season under equipped at left back. Shaw was 17 and Fox was not the man for the job and the club also seemed to agree hence the move for Buttner And the last minute attempts to bring in Martin Olsen. No one had any idea how Shaw would fair and the fact he didn't start the season suggests the management weren't confident he was ready. Fortunately for us it did work out and Shaw has proven himself an excellent player although still learning and he picked up a few niggles throughout the season but I can't help but think that this was more down to good fortune than good decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Whilst what you say is true, the fact of the matter is we entered last season under equipped at left back. Shaw was 17 and Fox was not the man for the job and the club also seemed to agree hence the move for Buttner And the last minute attempts to bring in Martin Olsen. No one had any idea how Shaw would fair and the fact he didn't start the season suggests the management weren't confident he was ready. Fortunately for us it did work out and Shaw has proven himself an excellent player although still learning and he picked up a few niggles throughout the season but I can't help but think that this was more down to good fortune than good decision making. Such is the nature of sport sometimes you need a bit of luck! It's great when it works in your favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 (edited) I don't buy all this stuff about buying players in blocking the progress of youngsters. Not too many people complained about us bringing in Lovern, why didnt people claim his signing was blocking Jack Stephens progress? Its a a squad game these days and you need good players as well as young players and its also a dangerous game to play to expect youngsters to do too much to quickly. If the youngester is good enough then they will get their chance and if they are better than the incumbent then they stay in the side. they will benefit more from being eased into the first team rather than thrown in at the deep end and sink or swim.youre talking about 17 and 18 year olds here whose body's aren't developed yet and are still learning the game, if they were early 20s then its a different story, in reality how many 17 and 18 year olds play most of their games and are first choice in their position at other premier league clubs? There is a subtle difference between Shaw's elevation to first-choice LB and Jack Stephens own progress in that there is a lot more pressure playing the CB role. Stephens and Jordan Turnbull both look physically mature for their ages, but whether they have the positional awareness, concentration levels, mental strength etc., is a massive ask for a teenage centre-back playing in the PL. Not many examples of teenagers playing in that position regularly in the league - I can only think of Phil Jones and Chris Smalling - where as it seems quite a bit more frequent with full-backs (Baines, Gibbs, Jenkinson, A. Cole, Bridge, Bale, Rafael & Fabio Da Silva, etc.) Big advantage for Shaw coming into the team was the likes of Cork and Morgan mopping up any positional errors, where as with a CB, this would probably be a lot more costly as they would be so exposed. In that respect, breaking into the CB role is probably the hardest position to do so as a youngster (hence why Marquinos and Verane are so coveted,) so there is probably bit of discrepancy there in the opportunities that they can be afforded when compared to other positions. I do think it's important that players like Targett, Chambers & Isgrove are given their chance and that we don't bloat the squad with any needless acquisitions. I take your point about Shaw's physical and mental maturity, which is definitely rare, but I do see his integration into the team, while risky, as part of a more considered approach rather than just 'good fortune' - Adkins did play JWP in the first game of the season vs. the reigning champions, after all. Yes, they need to be blooded gradually and there shouldn't be an over-reliance on the young'uns coming through (I'm sure Poch knows the pitfalls of this too well from his time as Espanyol,) but the opportunities need to be there for them to take when ready. Edited 28 July, 2013 by Toon Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Not many examples of teenagers playing in that position regularly in the league - I can only think of Phil Jones and Chris Smalling - where as it seems quite a bit more frequent with full-backs (Baines, Gibbs, Jenkinson, A. Cole, Bridge, Bale, Rafael & Fabio Da Silva, etc.) It's always easier to blood wide players earlier because they have less to learn in terms of positional awareness - and if they don't perform it's unlikely to have dramatic consequences. Baines perhaps had the benefit of being a teenager while Wigan were in the Championship. He was a little older and had some first team experience before he had a crack at the Premier League. I agree that centre half is one of the toughest positions to play as a youngster, next to striker and goalkeeper - which is why we shouldn't give Gazza so much grief! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 (edited) There is a subtle difference between Shaw's elevation to first-choice LB and Jack Stephens own progress in that there is a lot more pressure playing the CB role. Stephens and Jordan Turnbull both look physically mature for their ages, but whether they have the positional awareness, concentration levels, mental strength etc., is a massive ask for a teenage centre-back playing in the PL. Not many examples of teenagers playing in that position regularly in the league - I can only think of Phil Jones and Chris Smalling - where as it seems quite a bit more frequent with full-backs (Baines, Gibbs, Jenkinson, A. Cole, Bridge, Bale, Rafael & Fabio Da Silva, etc.) Big advantage for Shaw coming into the team was the likes of Cork and Morgan mopping up any positional errors, where as with a CB, this would probably be a lot more costly as they would be so exposed. In that respect, breaking into the CB role is probably the hardest position to do so as a youngster (hence why Marquinos and Verane are so coveted,) so there is probably bit of discrepancy there in the opportunities that they can be afforded when compared to other positions. I do think it's important that players like Targett, Chambers & Isgrove are given their chance and that we don't bloat the squad with any needless acquisitions. I take your point about Shaw's physical and mental maturity, which is definitely rare, but I do see his integration into the team, while risky, as part of a more considered approach rather than just 'good fortune' - Adkins did play JWP in the first game of the season vs. the reigning champions, after all. Yes, they need to be blooded gradually and there shouldn't be an over-reliance on the young'uns coming through (I'm sure Poch knows the pitfalls of this too well from his time as Espanyol,) but the opportunities need to be there for them to take when ready. You're right about your point about being centre half, but I only used Lovern as an example as he was our most recent signing. We could use the same theory to chaisng other players, would a new striker block Sinclair? Would a new winger block Isgrove? My view of things are is that its unfair to rely on an 18 year old, no matter how good as first choice in that position. Physically they are still growing, they are still learning the game and we don't want to risk burning them out. Young players have peaks and dips in form and confidence and need to be protected as well as developed.If you check all the players you'll mention none of them were first team regulars for premier league sides until they were at least 20. The obvious comparison is Wayne Bridge and whilst he made his debut for us at 18 he started out as a winger and wasn't converted until a left back and become first choice there until he was 20. So it seems its a very, very rare thing for such a young player, regardless of ability, to be thrown in so quickly. Edited 28 July, 2013 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Saint Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 (edited) You're right about your point about being centre half, but I only used Lovern as an example as he was our most recent signing. We could use the same theory to chaisng other players, would a new striker block Sinclair? Would a new winger block Isgrove? My view of things are is that its unfair to rely on an 18 year old, no matter how good as first choice in that position. Physically they are still growing, they are still learning the game and we don't want to risk burning them out. Young players have peaks and dips in form and confidence and need to be protected as well as developed.If you check all the players you'll mention none of them where first team regulars for premier league sides until they were at least 20. The obvious comparison is Wayne Bridge and whilst he made his debut for us at 18 he started out as a winger and wasn't converted until a left back and become first choice there until he was 20. So it seems its a very, very rare thing for such a young player, regardless of ability, to be thrown in so quickly. Yeah, fair point. I guess that argument could be extended to Wanyama blocking JWP's future, etc. Though I do still think that certain positions require more responsibility than others. Knowing when to blood the youngster is obviously quite a complex process with a lot of variable factors that I cannot be bothered to list. As you say, there is a big risk of burnout, which might not impact the player immediately but further down the line of their career - take Rooney's current form/injury problems, for instance. Michael Owen certainly thinks that playing too much as a youngster affected his later career, when comparing him to someone like Giggs who was introduced into the Utd team gradually. With that in mind, we shouldn't expect the likes of Shaw to play in every single game next year. Having that pathway open to the first team though is a must, for player and for club. Take Chelsea's academy, which Terry and Bertrand aside, has really not performed as it should with all the investment ploughed into it over the past decade. Not necessarily a reflection on the football education the youngsters receive - they produced Jack Cork after all - but just that those players don't get the opportunity to get anywhere near the first team as often enough. As a club who are massively associated with producing fantastic young talent it's just important that with all the new TV money pouring in, we stay true to that ethos - which I am sure we will. Rather than scouring the foreign or domestic market to beef up the squad in certain areas I'd just like us to look in-house first, then consider quality additions. Which seems to be precisely what we are doing and renders my entire post pointless. Edited 28 July, 2013 by Toon Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Durman Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Must protest. I think Fox played excellent against Besiktas. He's very strong and a no mess defender, with a sweet left foot. I think some of you are far too critical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostBoys Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 I think there should be some new rules on here. Trolls calling players s**t c**p rubbish and writing off young developing players should be banned permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Must protest. I think Fox played excellent against Besiktas. He's very strong and a no mess defender, with a sweet left foot. I think some of you are far too critical His positional sense - and lack of pace to make up for it - do leave a mess sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 His positional sense - and lack of pace to make up for it - do leave a mess sometimes. But it also doesn't help the fact that he is left so exposed at times. He's had to play against some of th best wide players in the premier league with very little cover. I don't think his positional senses is as bad as some make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWD Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Must protest. I think Fox played excellent against Besiktas. He's very strong and a no mess defender, with a sweet left foot. I think some of you are far too critical Certainly agree that people exaggerate how bad he is. As a back up LB he's more than adequate and his dead ball delivery is excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 Strachan has selected Fox for his squad in June of this year, Fox pulled out injured. Not too sure what has changed between early June and now though. Fair point, I did not realise WGS selected him in June. Point still stands though he has been omitted from every WGS squad except that one, and withdrew. It is a shame when a Saints player cannot make the first 29 for Scotland though. You look at who is included and quite honestly hardly anyone is well known, and many are from the Championship. Sadly for Fox, he will never be a PL class defender, his defensive abilities are shocking. His forward play and his set piece delivery are actually good/very good, but in the end he should be judged on the main part of his role, i.e. his defensive duties. Harding was a better defender. Maybe Fox will get better when he realises he is not the superstar that perhaps he believes himself to be and applies himself to the role properly. I won't hold my breath though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 But it also doesn't help the fact that he is left so exposed at times. He's had to play against some of th best wide players in the premier league with very little cover. I don't think his positional senses is as bad as some make out. Shaw's no different in that regard, but he has the pace. When Saints are in possession Fox's starting point is the half way line and he (very frequently) goes further up than that, which he just doesn't have the pace to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPTCount Posted 28 July, 2013 Share Posted 28 July, 2013 One word 'rubbish' Almost anyone would be an improvement on Fox and it would not be difficult to find anyone to come and compete for a place at Saints. After all Most positions are covered and most by players who have been bought at some stage and all are better than Fox. So let's not hear this very false inaccurate rubbish any more. Why we haven't 'covered' Shaw with a reasonable back up is a mystery unless we feel that our youth will come through quickly. Anyway it is not 'backup' these days it's to share the role because you have to rotate and so it's not as though a new guy would be permanently on the bench.... Get a life, there are loads of players who would jump at the chance to replacing Fox...... Much better players than Fox too! My God Mark Dennis would do better even now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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